Canelo - Not Elite

First topic message reminder :

He's a very good fighter but no at all elite level.

I know many haven't seen him as elite but I thought he looked quite ordinary at times last weekend.

The problem is, Golden Boy, HBO and the boxing world in general wants him to be the next star to propel the sport for the next few years.

He looks good against static fighters but anyone with good boxing skills give him trouble and he doesn't seem to know how to rectify it.

He isn't that fast and his power isn't concussive as some feel and will be even less effective at MW.

The problem for him and his promoters is to keep him winning will take careful planning and whilst he brags about fighting anyone, his team are already back tracking from a GGG bout. To be fair it is very early doors so we'll see but don't see him as the "i'll fight anyone" type of fighter he says he is.

I can't see GGG losing a round against him though.

Where do you see his career in 5 years time?

by AZZJ44 Today at 10:35 am
"It's a bit early to be having a pop at Canelo for not defending against Golovkin. He's just won the title, give the kid a chance. They'll likely fight at this time next year and everyone will be happy.

Until discussions are made about the fight, no one knows any if the details such as weight so let's all have a nice cuppa and wait until we know.

Golovkin fans are fast becoming the new Pactards"

Maybe he'll go back on his word, but he did announce, immediately after the fight that he's the man at middleweight now and, as such, logically, won't be defending that title at middleweight. At least to GGG. What does that sound like to you (or anyone with a brain)?

Fighters decide what weight class they're comfortable fighting in and generally cut as low as they feel they can go without jeopardising their strength on fight night (or they think the size benefits outweigh the risk) Some guys who really pull the numbers in have learnt to pick a figure that suits and make other guys fight at that weight, rendering traditional weight classes obsolete.

However, that's not to say it doesn't come at a price. Look what happens to guy's who overdo the weight loss ... De la Hoya v manny,  Dawson v ward as some high profile examples.

Canelio's team think their guy can cut low and still win. So far they're right. Who know's how much stronger he is at 160 though. Maybe not at all, maybe quite a bit, maybe that suspect stamina suddenly improves. I understand entirely if they want a fight or two where he comes in at 160, to see how it goes before fighting GGG. If that is what he does. If he fights for the middle title with Caneloweight 155 stipulations then he's testing nothing and taking the mick.

hazharrison wrote:

sohotnot wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

sohotnot wrote:

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

I think in this instance you can make a claim for Froch as a great fighter, as was said earlier its about getting the win. Froch was behind against Taylor and Groves 1 and was probably even Groves 2 but won all three by stoppage, he also had to dig deep to beat Pascal. Alvarez may not look a million dollars in every fight but Floyd aside he's getting the wins. Holyfield is another ' great' at Hw, didn't always look great doing it or winning by landslides but generally got the job done, albeit 2nd time around in some cases. Elite level ala Floyd come around rarely in a lifetime. You win easy you are fighting rubbish, you eek out a win you're overrated, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters. Bottom line.

But lets be honest, I think there have only been 2 great fighters in history, Ali And Robinson. Marciano fought in a bad era, Louis fought in a bad era, Haglers best wins are against smaller men, Floyd has cherry picked, retired, put in weight stipulations & ducked Manny, Williams, Margarito, prime Mosely, prime Cotto, Wlad is boring & fights in a bad era, Duran got rolled like a drunk, Hearns was chinny, Chavez was a face forward brawler that fought cans, Calzaghe was stay at home joe, Roy jones jr ducked collins & Dariuz M and is a drug cheat before being exposed as chinny, Manny got ko'd early on, ducked floyd and fought catchweights. the list is endless. As I said earlier damned if you do damned if you don't.

A few great fighters from recent years: Mayweather, Pacquiao, Hopkins, Marquez, Jones, Holyfield, Lewis, Chavez, Whitaker, Barrera, Morales, Lopez.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters.

Unfortunately not Haz, look back at my post for reasons . Now lets start with Lewis, ko'd by McCall, ko'd by Rahman, struggled with Mercer. Holyfield at CW yes HW no. Lost to Moorer, twice lost to Bowe, struggled with Holmes, but on the other hand just like Froch & Alvarez got the win

BTW Haz

I was being sarcastic/having a laugh! Just pointing out how easy it is to pick holes in a fighters record if a hater/fanboy chooses to. Pretty much everything I said has been said on here by various people, most of which will be repeated in the future.

On a side note should a round ever be scored more than 10 -8 if a fighter is knocked down 3 times or more in a round? Could be time for another Manny bashing post

Qoxiivi wrote:by AZZJ44 Today at 10:35 am
"It's a bit early to be having a pop at Canelo for not defending against Golovkin. He's just won the title, give the kid a chance. They'll likely fight at this time next year and everyone will be happy.

Until discussions are made about the fight, no one knows any if the details such as weight so let's all have a nice cuppa and wait until we know.

Golovkin fans are fast becoming the new Pactards"

Maybe he'll go back on his word, but he did announce, immediately after the fight that he's the man at middleweight now and, as such, logically, won't be defending that title at middleweight. At least to GGG. What does that sound like to you (or anyone with a brain)?

All I heard him say is he'd fight him tonight and a bit about respect. Where and when did he say the words that you're saying?
It wasn't in the ring after the fight.

http://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/10075047/canelo-alvarez-beats-miguel-cotto-on-points-to-win-wbc-world-middleweight-title

And he said as much before the fight, I believe. In fact, I think there was a thread about it.

Not saying Sky Sports are making it up but I watched it live and never heard that and have listened again and still can't find him saying that. Actually seemed like he wanted the fight. He said "put the gloves on now" when asked by Kellerman about Golovkin.

I actually think you're right though in what you're saying but think he should be given a chance. Not everyone will think the same however a fight to get used to the weight or even two fights to build to 160 then GGG at the end of next year. I think that's fair enough. The WBC have a call in this too. They could enforce Canelo to defend at 160.

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/canelo-defeats-cotto/49798#more-49798

It is the sanctioning body's fault. My problem is not with a lmw and a mw agreeing to fight at, say 157 to make a fight (per se), it's with a lmw holding a mw belt (that he won at 155lbs) and then immediately stating that, being the new mw champion, he will not defend it at mw to his mandatory challenger. Currently, that's GGG, but if it was someone else it'd be just as wrong.

Now, he only said it either regards to GGG which, as I've said, leaves only two possibilities: if he applies (or is allowed to apply) this to any mw challenger then he's holding the belt hostage and should be stripped. If it's a caveat that he only applies to GGG then he's 'scared' (a term I hate, but you know what I mean) to fight him at 160.

I guess I'm a little more frustrated with it from him as Cotto was always too small. Doubt he'd have lasted more than five rounds with GGG, but Alvarez is a much bigger fighter. Just had expectations of him honouring the rules. Clearly not. Well, clearly that's not the intention. Maybe that will change, but no one can deny that his statements before the fight and since are of someone who's calling themselves THE mw champion, whilst refusing to fight at that weight... at least with Golovkin. That, to me, says one thing.

I agree on face value Canelo, being middleweight champion, should have to defend his title at the middleweight limit. For this fight to be made though there may have to be some movement on the weight. For me it's more about the fight being made so we get to see Canelo v GGG. I'm not fussed on the title.

Lots of other fans will see it as a duck of some sort if Canelo doesn't defend at 160 and I can see that point however he doesn't feel that he's ready for 160. If he's saying that he won't fight at 160 then what would people prefer?
Not to see that fight and have Canelo relinquish the belt so that GGG can unify without beating the champion? Or have GGG cut a little extra weight to make a superfight like Canelo himself did for Floyd and also what GGG has said he would have done for a Mayweather fight.

I just want to see the fight as I feel Canelo would acquit himself well and would be a challenge for GGG.

A catchweight is no big deal in principle if its along the lines of boxer A who weighs 175 and boxer B who weighs 165 agree to meet at 170.

This is not what Alvarez is does. He is a boxer who weighs 175lb when he boxes. It maks no sense to say he isnt ready for 160 division and by extension, boxers who he wont hold a size advantage over. This approach deserves all the criticism it gets.

Whats going to be stipulated next? Boxer A will fight boxer B as long as boxer B fights with one hand tied behind is back?

AZZJ44 wrote:I agree on face value Canelo, being middleweight champion, should have to defend his title at the middleweight limit. For this fight to be made though there may have to be some movement on the weight. For me it's more about the fight  being made so we get to see Canelo v GGG. I'm not fussed on the title.

Lots of other fans will see it as a duck of some sort if Canelo doesn't defend at 160 and I can see that point however he doesn't feel that he's ready for 160. If he's saying that he won't fight at 160 then what would people prefer?
Not to see that fight and have Canelo relinquish the belt so that GGG can unify without beating the champion? Or have GGG cut a little extra weight to make a superfight like Canelo himself did for Floyd and also what GGG has said he would have done for a Mayweather fight.

I just want to see the fight as I feel Canelo would acquit himself well and would be a challenge for GGG.

If the fight is going to be for the title then it should be at 160lbs.....simple really. Canelo doesn't feel that he's ready to fight at 160lbs? Then vacate the title, I don't care. I hate seeing rules being bent and changed just because someone wants to see a particular fight.

catchweight wrote:A catchweight is no big deal in principle if its along the lines of boxer A who weighs 175 and boxer B who weighs 165 agree to meet at 170.

This is not what Alvarez is does. He is a boxer who weighs 175lb when he boxes. It maks no sense to say he isnt ready for 160 division and by extension, boxers who he wont hold a size advantage over. This approach deserves all the criticism it gets.

Whats going to be stipulated next? Boxer A will fight boxer B as long as boxer B fights with one hand tied behind is back?

Boxing has a total lack of governance. They talk about player power in football - today's marquee fighters hold all the aces.

The alphabets need Alvarez as he makes them the most money (from % sanctioning fees). They work for him. If fighters want to make the most money they ever earned, they do as he says, too. He can, therefore, stipulate whatever weight limits he thinks will leverage things in his favour.

We saw this with Mayweather (catch weights, paying WADA to effectively work for him and cover for him, choosing when he wanted to fight people) - it's a dispiriting trend.

Everyone should be praying the PBC brings about one organisation of central governance who would reinstate weight limits, sensible rankings and force fighters to fight their top contenders.

As we see in the UK - it's never been easier to win a world title belt and once a fighter has one of those, they can sit on it for years (like Calzaghe did with the WBO belt).