Why do the WWE persist with Roman Reigns? (Survivor Series Spoilers)

For me, right now, this is bad for business. And I feel sorry for Reigns, but I just don't think he has "it". You can try to re-run the Bryan story of an underdog overcoming all hurdles to raise the title. Or you can go down the Rocky road of a heel turn then face. But at the end of the day, if Reigns doesn't have "it" he's not going to create anywhere near the buzz and emotion that either of those two had.

I don't think the story that WWE is telling right now is wrong. In fact, I think if you'd have just swapped round the two wrestlers in the final it would have created a whole different vibe. If Ambrose had ended his year of trying and trying to win the title and finally had it, to have Sheamus snatch it away, I think that has a resonance. Because no matter how poorly his character has been written at times, or how many matches Ambrose has lost in odd ways, he has that connection with the crowd. And that might not be as strong as Bryan's or the Rock's, but it is there. And he might not be 6'5", but if I were running WWE I'd want the guy who the crowd was responding to to be in the mix of my main story and the guy they can vocally get behind.

And maybe I'm missing the whole deal here, but I just don't see why Vince seems to keep doubling down on a guy who from me watching at home on the TV just doesn't seem to be doing anywhere enough for his business to justify that. But maybe my perspective is all wrong.

Vince = Look + Rock Relative = $$$

^ That's all you need to know.

I think there are people out there who are going to boo Reigns regardless of how much he improves or how well he is booked because he's been highlighted as a future star and Vinny Mac guy and they think they're being clever.

Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I think he has "IT" but they he's handled is simply awful:

-He was built as the monster of the Shield and all of a sudden we're supposed to see him as an underdog. He's better off as an intimidating force for others to overcome with no inclination towards playing up to the crowd.
-If he's going to be built as the face of the company, he doesn't have to win every.single.match. There needs to be at least some doubt that a heel can overcome him.
-I genuinely believe had he won the title, he would have been booked like he was Rey Mysterio

Fernando wrote:Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I don't know if you can carry a match if your match is a long baby face is beaten down segment, followed by the baby face come back. It is something that works very well in the tag matches, which is of course where Reigns used to get pops as the hot tag. But, for singles to me it just feels so original Hulk Hogan era, where as modern wrestling often seems more about trading offence and moves and near falls.

psycho-gooner wrote:I think he has "IT" but they he's handled is simply awful:

-He was built as the monster of the Shield and all of a sudden we're supposed to see him as an underdog. He's better off as an intimidating force for others to overcome with no inclination towards playing up to the crowd.
-If he's going to be built as the face of the company, he doesn't have to win every.single.match. There needs to be at least some doubt that a heel can overcome him.
-I genuinely believe had he won the title, he would have been booked like he was Rey Mysterio

We can differ. But I don't hear that huge pop when Reigns comes to the ring or wins to suggest that the majority of fans think he has "it". And if your baby face is going to be champion, that's what you want that roof lifting when he wins. And I'm absolutely willing to bet that if you re-run the match last night and Ambrose wins you get a much different crowd response.

Prometheus wrote:

Fernando wrote:Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I don't know if you can carry a match if your match is a long baby face is beaten down segment, followed by the baby face come back.  It is something that works very well in the tag matches, which is of course where Reigns used to get pops as the hot tag.  But, for singles to me it just feels so original Hulk Hogan era, where as modern wrestling often seems more about trading offence and moves and near falls.

Id get used to it if i were you If anything Sheamus got as good a reaction just for taking the title off him

Fernando wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

Fernando wrote:Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I don't know if you can carry a match if your match is a long baby face is beaten down segment, followed by the baby face come back.  It is something that works very well in the tag matches, which is of course where Reigns used to get pops as the hot tag.  But, for singles to me it just feels so original Hulk Hogan era, where as modern wrestling often seems more about trading offence and moves and near falls.

Id get used to it if i were you If anything Sheamus got as good a reaction just for taking the title off him

I kind of think that when Sheamus gets a bigger reaction than you, you have a problem. Though Sheamus and Lesnar could be an interesting match.

Anyway, as I've said. I'm out of WWE for a couple of months. All those injuries, with the product at a creative low and storylines I'm really not very invested in. I'm off to spend my Network money / time on ICW, RevPro and ROH.

When he speared HHH last night I genuinely got really interested and it could have been a good story of seeing HHH throwing everything at him to try and take the belt off him but that lasted like a split second until Sheamus came down and cashed in which was what I was expecting. I think he would have been a more interesting force as champion and having his "brother" come after him than he will be trying to win the belt back.

Prometheus wrote:

Fernando wrote:Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I don't know if you can carry a match if your match is a long baby face is beaten down segment, followed by the baby face come back.  It is something that works very well in the tag matches, which is of course where Reigns used to get pops as the hot tag.  But, for singles to me it just feels so original Hulk Hogan era, where as modern wrestling often seems more about trading offence and moves and near falls.  

psycho-gooner wrote:I think he has "IT" but they he's handled is simply awful:

-He was built as the monster of the Shield and all of a sudden we're supposed to see him as an underdog. He's better off as an intimidating force for others to overcome with no inclination towards playing up to the crowd.
-If he's going to be built as the face of the company, he doesn't have to win every.single.match. There needs to be at least some doubt that a heel can overcome him.
-I genuinely believe had he won the title, he would have been booked like he was Rey Mysterio

We can differ.  But I don't hear that huge pop when Reigns comes to the ring or wins to suggest that the majority of fans think he has "it".  And if your baby face is going to be champion, that's what you want that roof lifting when he wins.  And I'm absolutely willing to bet that if you re-run the match last night and Ambrose wins you get a much different crowd response.

I agree his reaction could be much better and if Ambrose had won. It would have been alot better. But i reckon the reason he doesn't get those reactions is because of how he has been booked.

psycho-gooner wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

Fernando wrote:Can you say since this time last year he's improved?

Still not great at carrying a match which if going to main event you need to be able to do
Some of the promo's have been borderline cringeworthy, Some have been decent.

If he has it's barely IMHO Samo.

I don't know if you can carry a match if your match is a long baby face is beaten down segment, followed by the baby face come back.  It is something that works very well in the tag matches, which is of course where Reigns used to get pops as the hot tag.  But, for singles to me it just feels so original Hulk Hogan era, where as modern wrestling often seems more about trading offence and moves and near falls.  

psycho-gooner wrote:I think he has "IT" but they he's handled is simply awful:

-He was built as the monster of the Shield and all of a sudden we're supposed to see him as an underdog. He's better off as an intimidating force for others to overcome with no inclination towards playing up to the crowd.
-If he's going to be built as the face of the company, he doesn't have to win every.single.match. There needs to be at least some doubt that a heel can overcome him.
-I genuinely believe had he won the title, he would have been booked like he was Rey Mysterio

We can differ.  But I don't hear that huge pop when Reigns comes to the ring or wins to suggest that the majority of fans think he has "it".  And if your baby face is going to be champion, that's what you want that roof lifting when he wins.  And I'm absolutely willing to bet that if you re-run the match last night and Ambrose wins you get a much different crowd response.

I agree his reaction could be much better and if Ambrose had won. It would have been alot better. But i reckon the reason he doesn't get those reactions is because of how he has been booked.

This may be true. But, again I ask is it not time to give up on him? If he's been ruined by bad booking, there seems to me no indication that WWE are going to turn this round.

I'd argue that Ambrose has been poorly booked. How many PPVs did he go without a win? He's had stories that have pushed him from crazy to clown. And he's still getting a reception.

So, maybe I'm the world's laziest booker but giving Ambrose the story would seem such an easier path to take to create more fan excitement. I just see Reigns as so broken at this point, why bother mending him, while Ambrose has been bashed about as much but still maintains a level of interest.

Quick question. Who would we list as WWE's 3 most over (and active) talents right now?

has he improved in the last year??

of course he has, only a "we must boo Reigns" sheep follower would ask such a stupid question.

Reigns V Lesnar at wrestlemania

Reigns V Wyatt at hell in a cell

Reigns V Bryan - fast lane

all decent matches.

although im guessing he was carried in those matches

he even had a decent match against the big show at extreme rules.

Here's IMO the problem. If we say that Reigns is greatly improved in the last year. And even if we went as far as to say that it was Reigns who got MOTY candidate matches out of Lesnar, Wyatt, Bryan & Show.

Then that makes it even worse for me that he's not over. So, now we acknowledge that he's a great worker who delivers on the big stage and still the fans aren't getting behind him. It looks to me less and less likely that he'll get over enough to be the WWE's face on a level that Cena was at.

thats all down to bringing Daniel Bryan back before last years royal rumble and having him thrown out pretty much straight away.

Reigns was getting one of the best reactions in the WWE at that point, but creative well and truly messed that up.

The Bryan fan boys then took it upon themselves to boo Reigns because he wasnt Daniel Bryan, and everyone else who couldnt think for themselves followed suit which is a shame.

Tbf he was carried through the Lesnar match he got thrown about tfor 95% then got a cena style run and then got F5'd & seth appeared.. Can't comment on the other 2(1 gone out of my head, other i didn't see)

Vince taking over and writing all his promos in the lead up to Mania was the worst thing that could have happened to him.

That and because he was 'handpicked' and people dont like being told who to cheer for. Or, again, its out of spite and anyone in that position would be treated the same.

There's a decent amount of smark booing because he's seen to be handed his spot and because he seems to be the chosen guy by the wwe.

Ever since Bryan, there's gonna be a section that are just going to Poopie on anyone who seems to be handpicked.

Ian2307 wrote:thats all down to bringing Daniel Bryan back before last years royal rumble and having him thrown out pretty much straight away.

Reigns was getting one of the best reactions in the WWE at that point, but creative well and truly messed that up.

The Bryan fan boys then took it upon themselves to boo Reigns because he wasnt Daniel Bryan, and everyone else who couldnt think for themselves followed suit which is a shame.

Are you saying if you didn't like Reigns you had to be a "Bryan fanboy" or couldn't think for yourself? Pretty strange stance

Okay so we seem to have some thoughts that not being Daniel Bryan counts against Reigns. And that fans don't want a hand-picked champion.

So why not cut Reigns off? However we got here, I can't help but conclude that he's not over, and isn't going to get over soon.

Is there any chance that Survivir Series was a tie in the water? That if there were great cheers when Reigns won, or upset when Sheamus turned him over, WWE had their man. But with a collective meh in both cases that counts against him? Or is Vince really taking this all the way to Mania?

Apparently the decision for Sheamus to cash in was just hours before the event because they knew that Roman would get booed and the crowd are more likely to cheer him than Sheamus.

And if that doesn't say "this'll never happen for Reigns", I don't know what will.

Surely nobody thinks Reigns getting mixed reactions will stop them wanting him to be the next star? Cena has been getting mixed reactions for nearly ten years and it never stopped them. I don't know what Reigns' merchandise sales are like, but I imagine they're pretty good, he's also a very good face for the company to outside brands and promotional opportunities than anybody currently on the roster.

Further evidence of the last minute cash in is that Sheamus wasnt even advertised for tonights RAW before the PPV. I understand WWE we forced to play a hand but this seems like a duffer.

Crimey wrote:Surely nobody thinks Reigns getting mixed reactions will stop them wanting him to be the next star? Cena has been getting mixed reactions for nearly ten years and it never stopped them. I don't know what Reigns' merchandise sales are like, but I imagine they're pretty good, he's also a very good face for the company to outside brands and promotional opportunities than anybody currently on the roster.

Have we any stats on the merchandise / gate receipts he moves? Though I can equally guess his merchandise is good, on the basis that I bet a large proportion of stuff has his face on it. The only "recent" stats I heard were that Ambrose was selling shirts on a Cena level last year.

I'd not thought about poster boys for TapouT or other partners. I suppose that's one reason for my lack of interest in WWE when a big factor is "how does this guy look on a poster", rather than anything I'd equate with wrestling.

Ive said this since this time last year but if they want Reigns to be a top face then they really should be looking at flipping him and having him run as a top heel first, that wont happen now, they lost their one big chance, a chance that would have actually made sense, so unless they're planning to ger him over the same way they got Cena over (stick him top for years until Kids grow up with him) then I just don't see how he is going to become a top face now.

If Roman Reigns wasn't on RAW tonight we wouldn't miss him, thats a problem for me, at this stage in Reigns push he should be must see, the fans absolutely crapped on him a few weeks ago when he promo'd on his daughter and looked for the sympathy cheers, what happened last night was the exact same, when CM Punk got Jeff Hardy like this you could feel the emotion, when Hardy kicked out of the 1st GTS everyone went crazy, they could see the heart and guts he showed, they felt for him when the second GTS killed him.

Last night with Reigns it just felt too contrived, it felt once again like WWE saying "Look, this is what this dude is willing to go through"...nothing they do with him feels believable, thats not his fault, its the booking, the timing, the story...he's a badass, when he came in he was a destroyer in The Shield, where was his concerns for his daughter back then? Where was his need for crowd acceptance when he was hot as hell? They've got a guy there who if booked remotely like his original character would be so over but this is where the WWE have failed Reigns, they're trying to keep all the good bits about his Sheild gimmick while moulding him into a Cena/Batista and its just not worked out, they could save this by turning him for a year then turning on HHH but it looks like they've hotshotted that one too, it all feels to desperate.

Personally think a lot of this is the "anti-WWE" stuff. Prom, you knock down Reigns matches on points before they even begin. I want to see the criticism of Ambrose who was sloppy last night, who has sunk as a character and hasn't delivered a good promo in years. Is that the machine stopping him? Is it an environment? I think the answer to both of those is probably yes for the majority, but Reigns is in that same system with the same writers and creative.

The question about would we miss Reigns. Frankly, the only people I'd miss if they were not on Raw are The New Day and Owens. But that isnt down to the talent of others, because I really like many of the roster, its the booking and the climate.

To say he doesnt have an "IT" factor, he hasnt improved or hes just there on look are just pathetic lines. You can dislike someone or dislike their portrayal, but those bits are just c***.

Me and Kay Fabe have agreed and disagreed on various things over the years, and I have argued with him about Reigns, but I can get in line with his reasoning on this. They have failed him in many departments. ------However, I like him because I see the talent, I'm pretty sure I see hard work, I see plenty of improvement and I see a man who could have been huge organically if the WWE had had any sense.

I thought he played the dejected part last night very well. I also think Sheamus cashing in was the right decision as his champion run is not something anyone has looked forward to and would be better to be done before the money season, and definitely not after Mania when everyone gets on a high and thinks of potential.

My biggest disappointment with Reigns is that he smiles too much. Regardless of WWE's screw up on him he needs to bring his intensity at all times.

Given the reaction Reigns seems to get most of the people attending their events must be "anti-WWE". Sheesh that's about the dumbest thing I've read.

The question isn't was Ambrose sloppy last night, or did Reigns have a good match with Bryan in February. To me it's a question of why WWE keep backing a wrestler who seems to garner so little face reaction, and don't have the flexibility to get behind wrestlers when they are hot.

At no point have I said that if Reigns' singles career had been written differently would he not be over. But that's not the case, he's where he is and where he'd have benefitted from creative if it had worked, so he suffers when it doesn't.

/anti-WWE rant and c*** talk

Actually, I don't think that in anyway proves your point. Personally, as I've said many times before, I don't agree with the attitude of many WWE fans who go to events. Neither do I think they are the main people to listen to on things. Lets face it, WWE are not pushing Reigns because they have this feeling and no one else is getting it.

You'd be interested in reading articles on how WWE have made themselves the biggest heel and thus anything that is seen as an endorsement by them is a negative to certain aspects of the crowd.

The question is one question, but should be debated amongst myriad others.

But, if we can only discuss that point, its certainly a change of tune from the opening line "I just don't think he has "it"."

I ignored the board all day because I was going to watch SS in my own time, and also because I was reasonably sure of what might happen and how the reaction gets my goat.

Of course we can't discuss the opening line "I don't think Reigns has it", because that's a subjective opinion. One which if you'd read the whole post, I question myself.

So we have to look at what it is that is/isn't making him a top star. We have:
- Muted / negative crowd reaction to him winning.
- There's an indication he may be selling merchandise, but we don't know how much. It was at least reported that Ambrose was.
- There was the face of the company for outside brands. And honestly, beyond TapouT I don't know what they are and all the TapouT shots I've seen are muscle shots, rather than wrestling ones.
- We've had a suggestion that he was in some MOTY candidates and I think that holds water. My only counter is as fans have taken to great workers like Cesaro and even gone over on Cena with his recent work, why hasn't that worked for WWE.

All else I'm seeing is don't question WWE if they do it it must be right. Which pretty much negates any discussion that isn't waving the Feds flag.

To be honest, I have a feeling if Ambrose were getting the same push as Reigns the same sections would be crapping on him too.

Prometheus wrote:Of course we can't discuss the opening line "I don't think Reigns has it", because that's a subjective opinion.  One which if you'd read the whole post, I question myself.

So we have to look at what it is that is/isn't making him a top star.  We have:
- Muted / negative crowd reaction to him winning.  
- There's an indication he may be selling merchandise, but we don't know how much.  It was at least reported that Ambrose was.
- There was the face of the company for outside brands.  And honestly, beyond TapouT I don't know what they are and all the TapouT shots I've seen are muscle shots, rather than wrestling ones.
- We've had a suggestion that he was in some MOTY candidates and I think that holds water.  My only counter is as fans have taken to great workers like Cesaro and even gone over on Cena with his recent work, why hasn't that worked for WWE.

All else I'm seeing is don't question WWE if they do it it must be right.  Which pretty much negates any discussion that isn't waving the Feds flag.

The part in bold is not true, and my post also says that. Neither do I think you are going into any of why the fans do what they do. I do not think there is a simple "we like him cos hes good" thing in wrestling any more. Reigns, for example, has never done any work as poor as Cesaro's early stuff. But the smarks were big on Cesaro so he got carried through some awful work, which was within an awful gimmick too but still he didnt make anything of it. Generally, as far as I can see, the way to get over nowadays is to be booked weakly. Punk is a little off from this cos he was booked strong but not strong enough, however he is/was far more talented than anyone they have had for years. Owens can challenge that if you ask me, but not sure it'll happen in this climate.

I think the answer to why they persist is reasonably clear. I'm also reasonably happy to suggest that the miserable fans are not unhappy with Reigns' work, but his presentation. Equally, I think it is "cool" to detest those that WWE push. And somewhat naive because many of the people they like have been pushed in different ways.

Reigns isnt there just on look or physique. At the same time, look is important, its rather intangible but look does matter. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hogan, Cena, Orton, Goldberg, Lesnar, Sting, Warrior, Hall, Nash. All hugely linked to look. Even HBK, Bryan and Hart have had a certain look and were marketable. Strowman is someone I would point to right now and say look means he can get some actual talent and he'll never be a star, mainly cos he looks like Eugene had a long lost brother who grew up around the radiation of Hiroshima.

The biggest problem with Reigns is that they are booking Batman as Superman.

Actually I agree with everything you've written there.

So, just so I'm clear. You think that with some tweaking to how he is presented, ie things that could be done in the next couple of weeks, Reigns could be the World Champion, face of WWE?

The wonders of semantics. By both writing more we became clearer. I say kudos to us!

Couple of weeks? I suppose the answer is yes and no. No by normal standards of what we probably all perceive a WWE Champion to need to be. But yes by the standards of those around him. Is Sheamus a more credible choice? Ambrose? Would Orton or Cena make sense now? ADR? Cesaro is injured but had been booked to be lesser than all these men before there was even a tournament. Owens was actually the only one being booked as any good but then he lost in a lacklustre match to Ambrose (which I actually think was entirely Dean's fault - sorry Rich).

Equally, he can become the face of the WWE in their style, but no one becomes that guy and is liked by the adult fan. There isn't a babyface who does the corporate stuff and plays nice with families on Raw who is gonna be great with the smarkier audience. I will bow down to superior knowledge, but Hogan lost that crowd too.

For me, the best story now sees him losing the smiley guy stuff and going lone wolf and quiet. People will think its start of a heel turn, but that doesnt need to be the case. You can be broody, moody, intense and a face, just not the happy go lucky face. And that still doesnt mean he has to break from Ambrose; they were "brothers" when Reigns was in the Shield. The Reigns that got popular was Shield Reigns. Not because he was protected, people don't see that stuff. They saw a cold as ice methodical bulldozer. And it was cool as hell.

It shouldnt affect how he promos either. Promos are not about length of speech but delivery. You can say as much in 5 words as you can 50 if you say the right words. Reigns saying "I will tear you in half" is much better than a monologue about why he will keep going and keep trying his hardest. I don't think his delivery is bad, I genuinely would defy anyone to come across as the Rock 99/00 with the nice guy act Roman has.

I really think the Superman to Batman line (not my own, I admit) is the best way to look at it.

Thankfully for WWE they have some absolutely incredible talent. And they are lucky, because they often don't deserve them to stick around. As CM Punk has said about the New Day, the guys who stop caring and just do what they want suddenly appeal because what they want actually echoes with what older fans want, and is a bit more cut loose so isnt blocked by creative.

Is there anyone who is all round more talented and can be "the guy"? Bryan - but hes injured. Rollins - injured and needs a big moment to transition (his injury will allow him). Cesaro? I think he lacks an edge but Flair is right about him, given a perfect build I'm not sure theres anyone better right now to face Lesnar (shame about the injury though!). Taker - too old. Ambrose? He's lost something lately. I think hes stuck and I think he is hating it.

Again, as I say on many threads, their best chance is a slow burn with Owens. Austin begged to stay heel longer than original plans, they let that happen, he got more over in the long run. Owens is the same and for me he is closer to the "new Austin" moniker than anyone since Stone Cold.

Really, the argument isnt over Reigns. Ambrose. Cena. Orton. Sheamus. Fandango. Its the guys writing. The guy who did "Wrestling Isn't Wrestling" writes better stories about WWE than any of the current writers.