Champions Cup goes from strength to stength.

Great to see this competition throwing up some great games in only its 2nd season.

Just goes to show what the HC could have been.

Great stuff and long may it continue.

Are you watching the same competition as everybody else ?

I think the OP might be a little on the wind up but from an England point of view the performances have mostly been very good and it is a valid opinion although I am sure one or two on these forums might disagree

Its not been great at all.  Poor games and I have watched most of them.  Teams looking out of form and playing poorly.  Its a devalued competition now and its obvious.  Even the teams that have won have not played well - just less poorly than their opposition.  Most Pro 12 teams look out of sorts and with WC hangovers, the French look like thier minds are elsewhere understandably.  English teams winning well and with the honorable exception of Wasps not really having to play well or to work for it.  Bath looking for a walkover!

I hope the next round is better

TJ wrote:Its not been great at all.  Poor games and I have watched most of them.  Teams looking out of form and playing poorly.  Its a devalued competition now and its obvious.  Even the teams that have won have not played well - just less poorly than their opposition.  Most Pro 12 teams look out of sorts and with WC hangovers, the French look like thier minds are elsewhere understandably.  English teams winning well and with the honorable exception of Wasps not really having to play well or to work for it.  Bath looking for a walkover!

I hope the next round is better

If you do not think Sarries for instance have played will then you have been watching different games to me.

I didn't see all that game but what I saw was a poor ulster in main and some dirty nasty play by Sarries

Good times

TJ wrote:I didn't see all that game but what I saw was a poor ulster in main and some dirty nasty play by Sarries

Do you have a special feature on your TV that just shows you what you want to see? You should patent that. You could make a fortune.

TightHEAD wrote:Great to see this competition throwing up some great games in only its 2nd season.

Just goes to show what the HC could have been.

Great stuff and long may it continue.

It is indeed great that there have been some great games with great stuff.

Let's hope that the remaining 80% of dirge disappears though and the mill stone of two broadcasters stops killing the excitement.

TightHEAD wrote:Great to see this competition throwing up some great games in only its 2nd season.

Just goes to show what the HC could have been.

Great stuff and long may it continue.

Splitting the TV coverage between Sky & BT is an absolute disaster. Few sponsors as well. (Could be because the tv is split which would make a mess of any sponsors budget).

The problems in  France as well is putting the comp on very shaky grounds. No one will want to go to a sporting event in France.

As for the Challenge Cup - they really are clueless scheduling games 8,000 miles away in feicing the Asian part of Siberia.

Sin é wrote:

As for the Challenge Cup - they really are clueless scheduling games 8,000 miles away in feicing the Asian part of Siberia.

What are you on about Sin? It was a bloody master plan by the 'organisers'.
And it almost worked too if it wasn't for those pesky Connacht boys miraculously getting back eventually; after the close shave with the Cossack tribe as they walked a thousand miles to the nearest train, the avalanche that buried the train for three days, and the beautiful Alina, who bewitched them and asked them to stay in her town, where no menfolk survived the inter-regional war that never gets mentioned in any news bulletin. 400 widows.... and the Connacht boys assumed it to be their UN diversity-of-the-gene-pool duty to stay long enough to satisfy Ban Ki-Moon.

Next year the organisers have a game lined up for Munster just 300 metres above Machu Picchu. They're hoping for more success.

Did Munster not qualify for the Cup next year?

The Challenge Cup does what it says on the tin, so there should be a trek to the North Pole or a Channel swim or paragliding in the Andes...

That is the Cup I'm talking about.

It's a Home Game for Munster. But new rules will force certain Home games to be played in exotic locations to attract more market-devised, segment-specific, retail receptor units (ie fans)

TJ wrote:Its not been great at all.  Poor games and I have watched most of them.  Teams looking out of form and playing poorly.  Its a devalued competition now and its obvious.  Even the teams that have won have not played well - just less poorly than their opposition.  Most Pro 12 teams look out of sorts and with WC hangovers, the French look like thier minds are elsewhere understandably.  English teams winning well and with the honorable exception of Wasps not really having to play well or to work for it.  Bath looking for a walkover!

I hope the next round is better

Would the old version have made the games better? If so how?

Sin é wrote:As for the Challenge Cup - they really are clueless scheduling games 8,000 miles away in feicing the Asian part of Siberia.

What route are you taking? I think the SANZAR teams would laugh at that. One of the issues with Russia being assigned to Europe in terms of rugby. We clearly should just isolate them, similar to the way Argentina should have been treated.

Refereeing standard certainly hasn't gone from strength to strength.

Decent so far, and the surprise packages for me are Sarries and Wasps with both of them dominating their ex-champion opposition. So far though I don't really see how it's far greater than the old European competition.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:As for the Challenge Cup - they really are clueless scheduling games 8,000 miles away in feicing the Asian part of Siberia.

What route are you taking? I think the SANZAR teams would laugh at that. One of the issues with Russia being assigned to Europe in terms of rugby. We clearly should just isolate them, similar to the way Argentina should have been treated.

It would be a level playing field if, like the SANZAR countries, everyone had to travel to Siberia and play a game at -20. You can pretty much get a direct flight from SA to Argentina. Connacht had 3 flights to get home from Siberia (and didn't get back to Ireland until Tuesday). I think the SANZAR countries usually don't have to play a game in the same week they have travelled either.

That one game is definitely good reason to exclude Russia for all domestic competitions in their region. Who knows, it may even happen again for them at some point the future (if one of the Moscow teams doesn't qualify as the Russian team ahead of them, and they win the qualification competition, and get drawn with Connacht again.

TightHEAD wrote:Great to see this competition throwing up some great games in only its 2nd season.

Just goes to show what the HC could have been.

Great stuff and long may it continue.

Am puzzled by your post. What great games has the comp thrown up that haven't occurred previously? And how does it show it's going from strength to strength?

Do you mean the results?

The games are no better infact what struck me was how one sided many were.

geoff999rugby wrote:The games are no better infact what struck me was how one sided many were.

That's probably true for the Irish provinces. Leinster and Ulster are resembling the Italian teams in their pools and Munster overran Treviso.

Wasps had a great game against Toulon who were looking somewhat lost last weekend. Saracens admittedly had an easy ride against a hapless Ulster.

The Ospreys attempted comeback in their last match was quite good to watch I'm sure.

There's been a mixture of games really some good some not so good.

I expected more from both Glasgow and the Scarlets in the games just gone but thought the Os done really well to claw that game back from the half time score.

As for the Wasps result then whilst some might have predicted a home win I doubt many would have predicted it by that margin so well done to them.

Unfortunately due to the events in Paris the tables don't reflect things properly and the rearranged fixtures (whenever they may be) could well prove to affect some teams more than others.

However as we stand the English clubs certainly set their stall out on the weekend but then again European rugby has proved not to be a direct reflection of how the International game pans out.

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The games are no better infact what struck me was how one sided many were.

That's probably true for the Irish provinces.  Leinster and Ulster are resembling the Italian teams in their pools and Munster overran Treviso.

Wasps had a great game against Toulon who were looking somewhat lost last weekend.  Saracens admittedly had an easy ride against a hapless Ulster.  

The Ospreys attempted comeback in their last match was quite good to watch I'm sure.

Neither are preforming the best in the Pro12 either, but to be fair, Leinster didn't get to field their first string side until the opening round of the RCC (RWC etc), so they were always going to be up against it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:There's been a mixture of games really some good some not so good.

I expected more from both Glasgow and the Scarlets in the games just gone but thought the Os done really well to claw that game back from the half time score.

As for the Wasps result then whilst some might have predicted a home win I doubt many would have predicted it by that margin so well done to them.

Unfortunately due to the events in Paris the tables don't reflect things properly and the rearranged fixtures (whenever they may be) could well prove to affect some teams more than others.

However as we stand the English clubs certainly set their stall out on the weekend but then again European rugby has proved not to be a direct reflection of how the International game pans out.

What has internationals got to do with anything in assessing the cup so far?

Pot Hale wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:There's been a mixture of games really some good some not so good.

I expected more from both Glasgow and the Scarlets in the games just gone but thought the Os done really well to claw that game back from the half time score.

As for the Wasps result then whilst some might have predicted a home win I doubt many would have predicted it by that margin so well done to them.

Unfortunately due to the events in Paris the tables don't reflect things properly and the rearranged fixtures (whenever they may be) could well prove to affect some teams more than others.

However as we stand the English clubs certainly set their stall out on the weekend but then again European rugby has proved not to be a direct reflection of how the International game pans out.

What has internationals got to do with anything in assessing the cup so far?

Nothing at all just thought would add that in as a reflection of whilst the Irish and Welsh are poor in this comp this year there no need to get worried about it as some may (then again as a Dragons fan and last year aside Europe very rarely worries me).

I think like in the old set up the double headers will prove a big indicator of where teams are as pretty much all teams will have integrated their WC players back in by then but like mentioned the rearranged games will prove critical this year.

Any news on when a decision will be made on them?

It seems all that Pro 12 Rugby 'fans' ever do is moan.

Why so many negative comments?

Didn't we all want a Euro Cup competition on a more level playing field?

Yes - but thats not what we got.

TightHEAD wrote:Why so many negative comments?

Didn't we all want a Euro Cup competition on a more level playing field?

That would depend on people's viewpoints I suppose.  For example, you possibly might think the Cup is more balanced. Another person might think differently.  

You'd have to provide more specifics.

What great games have there been that were not possible previously?
What specifically is going from strength to strength?

TJ wrote:Yes - but thats not what we got.

How would the old format be better and why isnt the comp a level playing field?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:Yes - but thats not what we got.

How would the old format be better and why isnt the comp a level playing field?

It's fairly obvious as to what people think. In moving the comp from one based on clubs/countries to one based on leagues, the English and French clubs have gained more.  It was a smart move and the PRO 12 clubs were left between a rock and a hard place in having to accept the lesser hand.

That's business.  I don't think English fans are going to persuade people that all is rosy in the garden though.

Strength to strength? diminishing TV audiences, fragmented TV coverage, few sponsors, less income, less variety of clubs, few exciting to and fro games ( the last nowt to do with format tho)

Pot Hale wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:Yes - but thats not what we got.

How would the old format be better and why isnt the comp a level playing field?

It's fairly obvious as to what people think. In moving the comp from one based on clubs/countries to one based on leagues, the English and French clubs have gained more.  It was a smart move and the PRO 12 clubs were left between a rock and a hard place in having to accept the lesser hand.

That's business.  I don't think you're going to persuade people that all is rosy on the garden though.

So would the inclusion of the Blues, Edinburgh and Zebre have really made the competition any better? Or would it have caused even worse games?

The thing with the RCC layout is in the groups stages there should realistically be one or two dominant sides (that is how seeding by the previous years league performance works). However when you get to the knockout stages, the games should be far more tight, and realistically could go either way, which in the old HEC was not always the case.

TightHEAD wrote:Why so many negative comments?

Didn't we all want a Euro Cup competition on a more level playing field?

It isn't a more level playing field though - the changes are a step towards England and France dominating the show.

Contrary to popular opinion this has nothing to do with the changes in qualification which the Celtic nations had no issue with.

So its not a level playing field as there are no longer disparities between the numbers between leagues?

The main problems have been obviously the split coverage and the woeful scheduling. In particular I couldn't believe that Leinster had to play a QF a week after the 6n! This really favours teams such as Toulon.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its not a level playing field as there are no longer disparities between the numbers between leagues?

As I said absolutely nothing to do with the changes in team numbers

Why does it favour Toulon?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its not a level playing field as there are no longer disparities between the numbers between leagues?

6 english. 6 french 1 scots 1 welsh 1 italian 3 irish is hardly even is it?

However this is an old and well overdone argument

bedfordwelsh wrote:There's been a mixture of games really some good some not so good.

I expected more from both Glasgow and the Scarlets in the games just gone but thought the Os done really well to claw that game back from the half time score.

As for the Wasps result then whilst some might have predicted a home win I doubt many would have predicted it by that margin so well done to them.

Unfortunately due to the events in Paris the tables don't reflect things properly and the rearranged fixtures (whenever they may be) could well prove to affect some teams more than others.

However as we stand the English clubs certainly set their stall out on the weekend but then again European rugby has proved not to be a direct reflection of how the International game pans out.

The events in Paris have had a major impact on the tables, (aside from the disparity in games).

Teams only entering the competition in the second week against teams already with a game under their belt are at a big disadvantage, because it takes time to get up to the pace of European rugby. Both sides at least start equal in the first week.
Further those teams with a win from the first week already have momentum that the late entrants couldn't match.
This is compounded by the Pro12 losing more players to the RWC per team than the other leagues, with many of them making their first starts for their team last weekend.

For a bit of fun let's create some circumstantial points:
All teams playing in the first week get a point.
Those teams that won in the first week have momentum and get a point.
The T14 and AP teams lost far fewer players than the Pro12, so they get an extra point.

Add up the circumstantial points and the pool standings are pretty much all reflective of the actual pools. Just a bit of fun but recent events (RWC and Paris) have undoubtedly had some bearing on the pools.

TJ wrote:Strength to strength?  diminishing TV audiences, fragmented TV coverage, few sponsors, less income, less variety of clubs, few exciting to and fro games ( the last nowt to do with format tho)

Anyone like to try to state its getting better given the above?

TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:Strength to strength?  diminishing TV audiences, fragmented TV coverage, few sponsors, less income, less variety of clubs, few exciting to and fro games ( the last nowt to do with format tho)

Anyone like to try to state its getting better given the above?

Going by the above list, you can argue that the second tier is definitely getting better.

Before the second tier was included English, French, Italian, and Welsh (occasionally Irish too).  Now it has Scottish sides, so it has improved on 'variety of clubs'

Some good games on the weekend alright. It hasn't been as engrossing as years past IMO. A lot of this is out of the hands of the organizers, like the French terror attacks and a world cup hangover. I'm sure my view is also as a result of the poor performances of the provinces.  

The TV split is a big negative however. It makes it more difficult for the networks to hype up and for the casual viewer to get interested.

The lack of sponsors is a bit odd but doesn't my experience of the tournament.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its not a level playing field as there are no longer disparities between the numbers between leagues?

If you need to have it repeated for you - then I'll oblige. But I suspect you are being disingenuous.

The issue was disparity between clubs and countries - on which the old comp was founded.

Moving it to an argument about disparity between leagues, even though two of the leagues only represented a single country/union was a smart move by PRL in strengthening their hand. They had the power and the numbers, they won.

As the old saying goes - quit while you're ahead - it might be useful to apply it in this discussion.

Rugby is rugby.  Every week will have good games and bad games... some weeks might have even one atrociously poor game, and the same week might have a truly great game.

The world goes on.  Rugby on the field is still rugby on the field.  Changing controller suits or bases for competitions won't change that.  Rugby will be rugby - good games, bad games, great games.

I don't think any of the debate about the 'new structures' had much to do with making games much much better.  The debate had instead everything to do with power, money, TV rights, greed, bitchy comments, rights to players, money, implied 'advantages', representative numbers, more money, club,more greed, union, 'fairness', poker-faces, boardroom fights, short-words, 'honest brokers', dramatic walk-outs, dramatic no-shows,  dramatic leaks and about 10,000 grumbling tea-breaks.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:Strength to strength?  diminishing TV audiences, fragmented TV coverage, few sponsors, less income, less variety of clubs, few exciting to and fro games ( the last nowt to do with format tho)

Anyone like to try to state its getting better given the above?

Going by the above list, you can argue that the second tier is definitely getting better.

Before the second tier was included English, French, Italian, and Welsh (occasionally Irish too).  Now it has Scottish sides, so it has improved on 'variety of clubs'

Before the change 6 teams, outside the 3 main leagues, gained entry to the 2nd tier now only 2 can - not sure how that has improved variety

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The main problems have been obviously the split coverage and the woeful scheduling. In particular I couldn't believe that Leinster had to play a QF a week after the 6n! This really favours teams such as Toulon.

Unfortunately that is down to having two separate broadcasters, they call the tune when games are played, given the money the pump into it.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The main problems have been obviously the split coverage and the woeful scheduling. In particular I couldn't believe that Leinster had to play a QF a week after the 6n! This really favours teams such as Toulon.

Unfortunately that is down to having two separate broadcasters, they call the tune when games are played, given the money the pump into it.

Not true this has come above by the insistence of the French that the final is 2 weeks earlier than previously - nothing to do with the broadcasters.
The broadcasters dictate when games are played during the weekends not what weekends they are played.