Champions Cup goes from strength to stength.

First topic message reminder :

Great to see this competition throwing up some great games in only its 2nd season.

Just goes to show what the HC could have been.

Great stuff and long may it continue.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:So, the Irish are brilliant and everyone else is wrong/crooked?

geoff, you really need to change the record and/or get some perspective.

Straw man I am saying nothing of the sort.

The IRFU make mistakes as do other Unions.
I am also not claiming Unions change policy because of sponsorship.

However in this one incident the whole scenario stinks to high heaven and the sequencing of events is just too cute.
The SRU were in financial difs, along comes a fairy godmother and hey presto they change their opinion to match the wishes of said fairy godmother

This is one of those Private Eye stories, isn't it? The ones where they strip back the tabloid language and overreaction and show the story for what it is. They did one when Euan Blair was blotto in Trafalgar Square that read "Young man gets drunk".

In this case the story would be "Commercial organisation makes commercial decision". What is so wrong with the SRU making a decision that it decides is in its commercial best interests, having negotiated a better deal than was on offer in the first place? On the face of it, nothing illegal or even immoral happened. An organisation had a choice between supporting one proposal that maintained the status quo and one that offered significantly more financial security. What would you do?

Ever bought a house or negotiated a new employment contract? Ever said "no, I think I'll stick with the old job, even though this one's better, because my workmates will be ever so upset to see me go."

Thought not.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes they do it's obvious. Who are they taking bribes from?

Guinness is as Irish as anything. The Harp is even on Leinsters crest. So there you go, keep the sponsors happy, and keep the Irish teams at the top of the league.

See how easy it is to work out evidence to meet your ends.

This is the official flag of Leinster - its where the harp comes from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_and_coat_of_arms_of_Leinster#/media/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg

Guinness also came from Dublin (which is in Leinster).

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes they do it's obvious. Who are they taking bribes from?

Guinness is as Irish as anything. The Harp is even on Leinsters crest. So there you go, keep the sponsors happy, and keep the Irish teams at the top of the league.

See how easy it is to work out evidence to meet your ends.

This is the official flag of Leinster - its where the harp comes from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_and_coat_of_arms_of_Leinster#/media/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg

Guinness also came from Dublin (which is in Leinster).

So to favour Leinster and Guinness the crap refs always give the 50/50 calls to Leinster. Ahhhh, it's all making sense now.

Poorfour wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:So, the Irish are brilliant and everyone else is wrong/crooked?

geoff, you really need to change the record and/or get some perspective.

Straw man I am saying nothing of the sort.

The IRFU make mistakes as do other Unions.
I am also not claiming Unions change policy because of sponsorship.

However in this one incident the whole scenario stinks to high heaven and the sequencing of events is just too cute.
The SRU were in financial difs, along comes a fairy godmother and hey presto they change their opinion to match the wishes of said fairy godmother

This is one of those Private Eye stories, isn't it? The ones where they strip back the tabloid language and overreaction and show the story for what it is. They did one when Euan Blair was blotto in Trafalgar Square that read "Young man gets drunk".

In this case the story would be "Commercial organisation makes commercial decision". What is so wrong with the SRU making a decision that it decides is in its commercial best interests, having negotiated a better deal than was on offer in the first place? On the face of it, nothing illegal or even immoral happened. An organisation had a choice between supporting one proposal that maintained the status quo and one that offered significantly more financial security. What would you do?

Ever bought a house or negotiated a new employment contract? Ever said "no, I think I'll stick with the old job, even though this one's better, because my workmates will be ever so upset to see me go."

Thought not.

So the SRU is a commerical organisation, not a sporting organisation!

I think Irish people in general have a different attitude to sport than in the UK (which is informed by the English Premiership and its multi million deals).

In Ireland, the biggest, most popular sports are amateur in that the players don't get paid, and all money generated is put back into the community (and they generate a lot of money). For instance, Dublin GAA has a better sponsorship deal than Leinster Rugby.

Probably why most of you support Liverpool and Man U.

Poorfour wrote:

Ever bought a house or negotiated a new employment contract? Ever said "no, I think I'll stick with the old job, even though this one's better, because my workmates will be ever so upset to see me go."

Thought not.

Ever accepted money to vote for Qatar? No? Thought not.

'There was division among the Rabo unions. The WRU and the Irish Rugby Football Union argued strongly for ERC to continue, a stance they were maintaining at the end of January, but the SRU took a more pragmatic view. Its board includes independent non-executive directors and they took a business position rather than quoting International Rugby Board regulations about the supremacy of unions.

The SRU used to be the most conservative union in the world, quick to upbraid anyone if it felt amateurism was being breached, but it appreciated far quicker than the IRFU and the WRU that to cling on to a principle even if it meant potential financial ruin was not good governance.

The SRU, which not long ago refused to negotiate with clubs, only their unions, ended on the side of Premiership Rugby and the regions, a key reason why agreement was eventually reached. The position of Scotland and Italy is protected under the formula the Pro 12 has agreed for financial distribution.'

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably why most of you support Liverpool and Man U.

I guess that's the whole point. Even the FAI 'support' Liverpool and Man U (and all the rest of them) over their own home based league and players. Some of us don't want rugby to go the same way.

Good point 7&1/2 - stumbled onto the nail on the head.

I don't know who the FAI are but that's shocking!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:'There was division among the Rabo unions. The WRU and the Irish Rugby Football Union argued strongly for ERC to continue, a stance they were maintaining at the end of January, but the SRU took a more pragmatic view. Its board includes independent non-executive directors and they took a business position rather than quoting International Rugby Board regulations about the supremacy of unions.

The SRU used to be the most conservative union in the world, quick to upbraid anyone if it felt amateurism was being breached, but it appreciated far quicker than the IRFU and the WRU that to cling on to a principle even if it meant potential financial ruin was not good governance.

The SRU, which not long ago refused to negotiate with clubs, only their unions, ended on the side of Premiership Rugby and the regions, a key reason why agreement was eventually reached. The position of Scotland and Italy is protected under the formula the Pro 12 has agreed for financial distribution.'

I bet that is the Guardian's version of events

(Paul Rees was the PRO for Wray & Craig)

So what are we saying here, it is the Scottish who jumped into bet with the PRL not the Welsh or was it........ ah feck it, lets just agree that it was not the Irish and they are the consummate professionals in all this and they are the Shangri-La of the rugby union world.

Once rugby went professional all the unions and any professional clubs / provinces / regions / franchises became commercial organisations perforce.

That doesn't preclude them from putting money back into the community (the RFU and even the IRB spend most of their dosh on grassroots rugby, for instance). But for any organisation, amateur or not, balancing the books is a prerequisite for continued existence.

Being a big amateur sporting organisation is actually a fairly cushy place to be. You get your primary product almost for free, but you get to sell it to lots of people. Quite hard not to make a surplus, really. Even a small organisation can breakeven without too much difficulty, because the core product is free.

Being a professional organisation can actually make that much harder, because you have significantly more people to pay. Your product is no longer free, so you have to find a way to make enough to cover those costs. That's true for a lot of soccer clubs, and even more so for organisations making the transition to professionalism (which rugby still is, even 20 odd years after it started).

The SRU was offered an opportunity to improve its financial position and secure its continued existence. They took it. End of, especially if the alternative was limping on with mounting debts.

LordDowlais wrote:So what are we saying here, it is the Scottish who jumped into bet with the PRL not the Welsh or was it........ ah feck it, lets just agree that it was not the Irish and they are the consummate professionals in all this and they are the Shangri-La of the rugby union world.

The WRU did not jump into bed with the PRL. The SRU and The Welsh Regions did.

The Scots did really well out of the whole thing. They also negotiated the same amount of money as IRFU and WRU even though they only have 2 teams and the WRU & IRFU have 4 each.

Poorfour wrote:Once rugby went professional all the unions and any professional clubs / provinces / regions / franchises became commercial organisations perforce.

That doesn't preclude them from putting money back into the community (the RFU and even the IRB spend most of their dosh on grassroots rugby, for instance). But for any organisation, amateur or not, balancing the books is a prerequisite for continued existence.

Being a big amateur sporting organisation is actually a fairly cushy place to be. You get your primary product almost for free, but you get to sell it to lots of people. Quite hard not to make a surplus, really. Even a small organisation can breakeven without too much difficulty, because the core product is free.

Being a professional organisation can actually make that much harder, because you have significantly more people to pay. Your product is no longer free, so you have to find a way to make enough to cover those costs. That's true for a lot of soccer clubs, and even more so for organisations making the transition to professionalism (which rugby still is, even 20 odd years after it started).

The SRU was offered an opportunity to improve its financial position and secure its continued existence. They took it. End of, especially if the alternative was limping on with mounting debts.

The SRU 'dropped the O and took the soup' is how we would describe it over here.

(reference to when England was trying to anglosise Ireland during the famine by giving people food if they dropped the 'O' from their name - for example, Paul O'Connell would have become Paul Connell if he took the soup!

And now the irish in the pockets of others after taking their silver. Disgusting.

Sin é wrote:
In Ireland, the biggest, most popular sports are amateur

Sure, that's why Irish websites and papers are full of Premier League soccer. A sport which the Irish are obsessed with and doesn't even get played in the country.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/index_new.html

http://www.balls.ie/

http://www.joe.ie/sport

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
In Ireland, the biggest, most popular sports are amateur

Sure, that's why Irish websites and papers are full of Premier League soccer. A sport which the Irish are obsessed with and doesn't even get played in the country.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/index_new.html

http://www.balls.ie/

http://www.joe.ie/sport

I think that you might find that Amateur sports in Ireland have a very good and consistent crowd's. Personally, I rarely use newspapers (Online or paper) as a guide to what is popular. I kind of go and experience for myself.

eirebilly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
In Ireland, the biggest, most popular sports are amateur

Sure, that's why Irish websites and papers are full of Premier League soccer. A sport which the Irish are obsessed with and doesn't even get played in the country.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/index_new.html

http://www.balls.ie/

http://www.joe.ie/sport

I think that you might find that Amateur sports in Ireland have a very good and consistent crowd's. Personally, I rarely use newspapers (Online or paper) as a guide to what is popular. I kind of go and experience for myself.

Oh I'm sure you're right. I'm just looking at the fornt page of a few websites. I'm sure they know their market.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
In Ireland, the biggest, most popular sports are amateur

Sure, that's why Irish websites and papers are full of Premier League soccer. A sport which the Irish are obsessed with and doesn't even get played in the country.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/index_new.html

http://www.balls.ie/

http://www.joe.ie/sport

I think that you might find that Amateur sports in Ireland have a very good and consistent crowd's. Personally, I rarely use newspapers (Online or paper) as a guide to what is popular. I kind of go and experience for myself.

Oh I'm sure you're right. I'm just looking at the fornt page of a few websites. I'm sure they know their market.

Amateur sports don't get played in the middle of the week as the participants are working at their day jobs.

edit: this is the lead story in joe.ie

http://www.joe.ie/sport/around-the-world-in-80-clubs-eire-og-gaa-club-london-5/519965

Around the World in 80 Clubs: Eire Óg GAA Club, London (#5)
By Conor Heneghan
It's the GAA, innit?

Outside of Ireland, London and New York are by far the most popular destinations as far as the GAA is concerned, with upwards of 70 clubs between two cities that are long established outposts for the Irish ex-pat community.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know who the FAI are but that's shocking!

They're the ones who took Blatter's thirty pieces of silver #notabribehonest

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Oh I'm sure you're right. I'm just looking at the fornt page of a few websites. I'm sure they know their market.

OK but the pages you chose are pretty much football orientated, there are plenty of GAA pages as well but that's besides the point as I can assure you that there are higher attendances at amateur sports events in Ireland than you could imagine. The English premier league is pretty popular in many countries so it does dominate a lot of headlines but that does not mean that it is more popular in Ireland than other sports.

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know who the FAI are but that's shocking!

They're the ones who took Blatter's thirty pieces of silver #notabribehonest

Who didn't?! They were either taking or giving them, including England. And then our own FA back Platini. Ineptitude and corruption all round.

So, regarding the BT bribes. What we have is:

Sky sign on to broadcast the Pro12 around May 2013, to start with the 2014 season in 2014/15.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sky-sports-signs-deal-show-3316079

BT aren't interested in broadcasting the Pro12 (don't put a tendor in). However, when Sky get it they decide to sponsor several of the teams that will be displayed on Sky Sport.

This is in the backdrop over the arguments over whether or not Sky have to carry adverts for BT sports.

http://www.digitalspy.com/media/news/a491789/sky-sports-wins-ofcom-ruling-over-bt-sport-adverts/

But instead of a way of stealth advertising, it is in fact a big conspiracy theory?

I'm sorry, but Chunky (even though I think he comes out with some crazy stuff and a load of rot) is bang on. If he had come out with that crap he would have been jumped on.

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know who the FAI are but that's shocking!

They're the ones who took Blatter's thirty pieces of silver #notabribehonest

Exactly.  Now we're all getting onto the same hymn sheet finally.  
Pieces of silver to go away and not interfere with the parties being held by the folks higher up the ladder (example: France and the WC)  Money produced to shut up the little people so that big people can go ahead and win big things for their chimney pot population densities

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:So, the Irish are brilliant and everyone else is wrong/crooked?

geoff, you really need to change the record and/or get some perspective.

Welcome to what we have to put up with when debating the issues in the Pro12. They are a marvelous bunch those boys from the emerald isles. Just to let you know Cyril, NOTHING IS EVER THE FAULT OF THE IRISH.

Totally agree, thanks LD.

HammerofThunor wrote:So, regarding the BT bribes.  What we have is:

Sky sign on to broadcast the Pro12 around May 2013, to start with the 2014 season in 2014/15.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sky-sports-signs-deal-show-3316079

BT aren't interested in broadcasting the Pro12 (don't put a tendor in).  However, when Sky get it they decide to sponsor several of the teams that will be displayed on Sky Sport.

This is in the backdrop over the arguments over whether or not Sky have to carry adverts for BT sports.

http://www.digitalspy.com/media/news/a491789/sky-sports-wins-ofcom-ruling-over-bt-sport-adverts/

But instead of a way of stealth advertising, it is in fact a big conspiracy theory?

I'm sorry, but Chunky (even though I think he comes out with some crazy stuff and a load of rot) is bang on.  If he had come out with that crap he would have been jumped on.

Double standards of the highest order from our Irish members on here.

Sin é wrote:
The SRU 'dropped the O and took the soup' is how we would describe it over here.

(reference to when England was trying to anglosise Ireland during the famine by giving people food if they dropped the 'O' from their name - for example, Paul O'Connell would have become Paul Connell if he took the soup!

Nice story, but is what the SRU did so bad? They looked after their own interests.

This is how it goes. IRFU V Everyone else.

Which basically illustrates where the stumbling block towards the advancement of the pro domestic game in the northern hemisphere lies.

HammerofThunor wrote:So, regarding the BT bribes.  What we have is:

Sky sign on to broadcast the Pro12 around May 2013, to start with the 2014 season in 2014/15.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sky-sports-signs-deal-show-3316079

BT aren't interested in broadcasting the Pro12 (don't put a tendor in).  However, when Sky get it they decide to sponsor several of the teams that will be displayed on Sky Sport.

This is in the backdrop over the arguments over whether or not Sky have to carry adverts for BT sports.

http://www.digitalspy.com/media/news/a491789/sky-sports-wins-ofcom-ruling-over-bt-sport-adverts/

But instead of a way of stealth advertising, it is in fact a big conspiracy theory?

I'm sorry, but Chunky (even though I think he comes out with some crazy stuff and a load of rot) is bang on.  If he had come out with that crap he would have been jumped on.

BT were asked to tender for the broadcasting rights, but they declined.

That is some turnaround to actually wanting to sponsor EVERY celtic team in the PRO12 to not having any interest in it 12 months previously. Real seat of pants stuff here. One would expect a company like BT to have a 3-5 year plan.

Did that turn around happen after Sky had confirmed Pro12 coverage and offcom had ruled that Sky didn't have to advertise BT Sports?

Also, TV rights and sponsorship aren't the same thing so it's not a turn around. For TV rights you have to think that people will subscribe to your channel to watch it. Sponsorship is effectively another form of advertising. In this case you're advertising to everyone who watches the PRO12 on BBC and Sky.

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is how it goes. IRFU V Everyone else.

Which basically illustrates where the stumbling block towards the advancement of the pro domestic game in the northern hemisphere lies.

It wasn't the IRFU v. everyone else. The IRFU were in agreement with all the other Unions. The SRU broke ranks and the RFU were spineless anyway.

A lot of people would think that the Irish Provinces are run extremely well and are a commerical success. Unlike the model you propose.

HammerofThunor wrote:Did that turn around happen after Sky had confirmed Pro12 coverage and offcom had ruled that Sky didn't have to advertise BT Sports?

Also, TV rights and sponsorship aren't the same thing so it's not a turn around.  For TV rights you have to think that people will subscribe to your channel to watch it. Sponsorship is effectively another form of advertising.  In this case you're advertising to everyone who watches the PRO12 on BBC and Sky.

Sky and BT were asked to tender at the same time.

I think BT were giving it away for free with their broadband at the time.

By not even making an effort to bid for broadcasting rights, they knew they were weakening the PRO12 countries bargaining power when it came to European rugby which was their real interest. The less money the Pro12 countries got from their own tv deal, the more likely that they would have signed up to the new Spiv's competition.

And so it happened.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is how it goes. IRFU V Everyone else.

Which basically illustrates where the stumbling block towards the advancement of the pro domestic game in the northern hemisphere lies.

It wasn't the IRFU v. everyone else. The IRFU were in agreement with all the other Unions. The SRU broke ranks and the RFU were spineless anyway.

A lot of people would think that the Irish Provinces are run extremely well and are a commerical success. Unlike the model you propose.

Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go. Only Ireland and it's rugby blazerism is now halting the enhancement of British and Irish domestic rugby.

I have no idea how you are measuring the "commercial success" of the model I propose. I'd like to hear more on that.

And the English.

The Welsh Regions are a sporting and commerical failure.
The Provinces are a sporting and commericial success.

Sin é wrote:The Welsh Regions are a sporting and commerical failure.
The Provinces are a sporting and commericial success.

So when you said "my model", what you meant was "Wales' model" ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:The Welsh Regions are a sporting and commerical failure.
The Provinces are a sporting and commericial success.

So when you said "my model", what you meant was "Wales' model" ?

Yes.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go.

Seems to work ok for the kiwis....

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go.

Seems to work ok for the kiwis....

Yup. In a different helisphere, ina different structure where their top pro teams have just 8 home games a season.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go.

Seems to work ok for the kiwis....

Yup. In a different helisphere, ina  different structure where their top pro teams have just 8 home games a season.

As opposed to the 12 our teams play.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go.

Seems to work ok for the kiwis....

Yup. In a different helisphere, ina  different structure where their top pro teams have just 8 home games a season.

As opposed to the 12 our teams play.

Mine plays 14. Sometimes 16.

Don't feed the troll guys - please!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because Union run domestic rugby isn't the way to go.

Seems to work ok for the kiwis....

Yup. In a different helisphere, ina  different structure where their top pro teams have just 8 home games a season.

As opposed to the 12 our teams play.

Mine plays 14. Sometimes 16.

They might want to play a few less then.

rodders wrote:

They might want to play a few less then.

Well yes, we could always scrap pro domestic rugby and just have test teams.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

They might want to play a few less then.

Well yes, we could always scrap pro domestic rugby and just have test teams.

Or you could not bother playing the English b teams in the B&I cup.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

They might want to play a few less then.

Well yes, we could always scrap pro domestic rugby and just have test teams.

Or you could not bother playing the English b teams in the B&I cup.  

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

They might want to play a few less then.

Well yes, we could always scrap pro domestic rugby and just have test teams.

Or you could not bother playing the English b teams in the B&I cup.  

That brings us to 14.

Sin é wrote:

By not even making an effort to bid for broadcasting rights, they knew they were weakening the PRO12 countries bargaining power when it came to European rugby which was their real interest.

Or, you know, they just didn't want it?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Sin é wrote:

By not even making an effort to bid for broadcasting rights, they knew they were weakening the PRO12 countries bargaining power when it came to European rugby which was their real interest.

Or, you know, they just didn't want it?

Huge change in strategy then that in 12 months they went from zero interest to wanting to sponsor everything that moved in the Pro12 (bar the Italians)!

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Sin é wrote:

By not even making an effort to bid for broadcasting rights, they knew they were weakening the PRO12 countries bargaining power when it came to European rugby which was their real interest.

Or, you know, they just didn't want it?

Correct. Much too far away from civilised cafes and Michelin star eateries of London, that shower. Wellington boot yokels, what ho?