South Africa vs England 3rd Test 14-18th Jan

First topic message reminder :

The pivotal 3rd Test starts in two days time. England are expected to be unchanged. Dale Steyn is out injured for SA and looks doubtful for the rest of the series, though Kyle Abbott is fit and will come into the frame for selection. Another possible change is someone else to open in the place of Van Zyl

Makes more sense to give Footitt a chance as he offers something a little different to Broad and Anderson.

good, professional performance from england, nothing to get carried away with though. indians slaughtered this south african side, they're mentally shot, no form whatsover & basically in the  process of transition, like the aussies were, after the removal of the warne's, hayden's & mcgraths etc, but this time with smith, kallis & steyn.

alfie wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

alfie wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62539.html

Nice one , hammersmith

Early history indeed...guess that was the all time low !   Did that take you long to find ?  I do admire the skills of you computer-handy fellows...

Just looked through the lowest ever test scores and that was third on the list.

Haha ... lateral thinking .   And there was I thinking you'd come up with some clever algorithm or something ...

Presume we can't beat "1" as the lowest ever.  

Fairly certain it's the lowest.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62427.html

That's the lowest score for a batsmen carrying his bat believe it or not.

Well, a couple of minor scares so far, but Cook and Hales getting on with the job.

A little surprised they seem to have reversed roles with the skipper doing most of the scoring while Hales seems to be playing the anchor role.

Cruising home...

Very un-English

Hales out for 18. England 64 for 1 and need 10 to win.

Hey , guildford...

I see you aren't about to join the Jonny Bairstow fan club yet

Yeah , he should have caught that one off Jimmy ...he still misses to many , work in progress , etc etc...

But you can't ignore the batting. Right now , England need that. He deserves time to work on the keeping side of his game. Would you not agree ?

And I think he is improving ; the run out effort perhaps the best bit of work , but some of the catching wasn't bad at all.

Hales misses the red ink opportunity...

dyrewolfe wrote:Well, a couple of minor scares so far, but Cook and Hales getting on with the job.

A little surprised they seem to have reversed roles with the skipper doing most of the scoring while Hales seems to be playing the anchor role.

Dyrewolfe - I felt Hales was in a personally awkward place here. Mind you, that goes with the territory and especially when you're trying to establish yourself in a Test side.

With only 70 odd needed to win, Hales would never have been able to score enough to cement his place and win the many doubters round. It was more important for Hales to finish not out today than to tonk a few; unfortunately, he didn't do either.

Expect him to still get the final Test. If he fails in that though, could well be a go for someone else on the opening merrygoround.

Oh dear, silly of Hales, getting out like that in these circumstances.


...and as I type this Compton goes in similar fashion for a duck. Eng 68-2...within touching distance now...




What was that you were saying about England not doing "routine" alfie?

guildfordbat wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Well, a couple of minor scares so far, but Cook and Hales getting on with the job.

A little surprised they seem to have reversed roles with the skipper doing most of the scoring while Hales seems to be playing the anchor role.

Dyrewolfe - I felt Hales was in a personally awkward place here. Mind you, that goes with the territory and especially when you're trying to establish yourself in a Test side.

With only 70 odd needed to win, Hales would never have been able to score enough to cement his place and win the many doubters round. It was more important for Hales to finish not out today than to tonk a few; unfortunately, he didn't do either.

Expect him to still get the final Test. If he fails in that though, could well be a go for someone else on the opening merrygoround.

Good points there guildford.

Surely Hales isn't going to get many more opportunities. Sad really, but he still has time to go away and play for his county, then earn a recall. Hopefully this experience will stand him in good stead in the future, if nothing else.

alfie wrote:Hey , guildford...

I see you aren't about to join the Jonny Bairstow fan club yet

Yeah , he should have caught that one off Jimmy ...he still misses to many , work in progress , etc etc...

But you can't ignore the batting.  Right now , England need that.  He deserves time to work on the keeping side of his game. Would you not agree ?

And I think he is improving ; the run out effort perhaps the best bit of work , but some of the catching wasn't bad at all.

Hales misses the red ink opportunity...

Hi Alfie - correct to say I haven't paid my subs for membership of the Bairstow fan club!

To be fair to him (and perhaps me), my grumbling has been about his keeping and not his batting. He's excelled with the latter in this series. All in all, he's justified his place - and I didn't expect to say that! However, whilst there may be no better current alternative, that doesn't mean the balance is as good as we would want.

dyrewolfe wrote:Oh dear, silly of Hales, getting out like that in these circumstances.


...and as I type this Compton goes in similar fashion for a duck. Eng 68-2...within touching distance now...




What was that you were saying about England not doing "routine" alfie?

Ha . Well I've watched them a long time...this is pretty comfortable though.

Hales getting out today doesn't bother me much. Will watch him at Centurian ; though I think he will start the summer anyway. Still plenty to prove ; but they'll give him some time ,I think.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Hey , guildford...

I see you aren't about to join the Jonny Bairstow fan club yet

Yeah , he should have caught that one off Jimmy ...he still misses to many , work in progress , etc etc...

But you can't ignore the batting.  Right now , England need that.  He deserves time to work on the keeping side of his game. Would you not agree ?

And I think he is improving ; the run out effort perhaps the best bit of work , but some of the catching wasn't bad at all.

Hales misses the red ink opportunity...

Hi Alfie - correct to say I haven't paid my subs for membership of the Bairstow fan club!

To be fair to him (and perhaps me), my grumbling has been about his keeping and not his batting. He's excelled with the latter in this series. All in all, he's justified his place - and I didn't expect to say that! However, whilst there may be no better current alternative, that doesn't mean the balance is as good as we would want.

Fair enough. This England team isn't perfect yet. But I think they are a good - and rather well knitted - outfit. They can work on the fine tuning as they go , no ?

Skipper gone with a tentative prod. Eng 71-3.

Its left to Root and Taylor to finish proceedings.

England win the 3rd Test by 7 wickets to seal a rare overseas series win going 2-0 up with one test left to play. A morale boosting win and one they will look to build on. For South Africa it is back to the drawing board and they evidently have some serious rebuilding team-wise and confidence-wise to do.

Two - nil

So ; who is MoTM ?

Root ? Stokes ? Broad ? A good case for any of them...

Finally! Home and dry after a slightly anxious period there.

Congrats to England on winning the match and the series. Suppose its stating the blindingly obvious to say Broad will get MOTM. Candidates for Man of the Series?

Commiserations to SA. Completely blown away by Broad and Stokes today. Never really had a chance after Broad had ripped through the top order. For once we managed to be ruthless and get them out for under a hundred.

Made a few daft mistakes in our reply (wouldn't be England if there weren't a few scares) but overall played pretty much the perfect match on a pitch and in conditions that made for an even contest between bat and ball.

As badly as SA have been at points in this series, England have been as good. Winning in SA, India and SA in recent times now.

Wonder the odds on that 10 years ago.

Wouldn't call them "scares" ...the game was over before the wickets fell.

Good win : must admit I never expected to skittle SA for 83 ! But really ; this match swung on the Root/Stokes partnership yesterday.

Broad should get the man of the match as his spell today totally decimated South Africa's batting line-up. As for the man of the series I'd throw Stokes in there. Stacks of runs at key times in attacking mode plus weighed in with some crucial wickets.

Root my man of the match - that innings in the context of the game truly world class

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Hey , guildford...

I see you aren't about to join the Jonny Bairstow fan club yet

Yeah , he should have caught that one off Jimmy ...he still misses to many , work in progress , etc etc...

But you can't ignore the batting.  Right now , England need that.  He deserves time to work on the keeping side of his game. Would you not agree ?

And I think he is improving ; the run out effort perhaps the best bit of work , but some of the catching wasn't bad at all.

Hales misses the red ink opportunity...

Hi Alfie - correct to say I haven't paid my subs for membership of the Bairstow fan club!

To be fair to him (and perhaps me), my grumbling has been about his keeping and not his batting. He's excelled with the latter in this series. All in all, he's justified his place - and I didn't expect to say that! However, whilst there may be no better current alternative, that doesn't mean the balance is as good as we would want.

Fair enough.  This England team isn't perfect yet.  But I think they are a good - and rather well knitted - outfit. They can work on the fine tuning as they go , no ?

Fair enough from me too.

We all (and that certainly includes me) have to accept that whilst weaknesses in the England team can be identified, that doesn't automatically mean someone on the outside is better.

Great credit here to England and especially Root, Broad and Stokes. The latter didn't shine as brightly as he can but he had a very good game throughout in all areas.

As for South Africa - as Craig says, they have some serious rebuilding to do. Whilst Rabada impressed, I doubt that history will judge their main 4 man attack in this Test too kindly.

Best thing about this England team is that they're so exciting to watch - such potential in the young players, veterans in their prime - a kink or two to iron out but that's to be expected in a developing side.

However people want to judge Bairstow's wicket-keeping you cannot undervalue his batting in this series. Up there in the top three England run scorers this series. Supported Stokes in that memorable stand at Durban and today his sturdy 45 ensured England got the lead they did by holding the tail together. His wicket-keeping is not the stuff of legends but neither is it really so terrible either.

Olly wrote:Root my man of the match - that innings in the context of the game truly world class

Yeah I think I'd have gone that way - no one else passed sixty in the match. But I can't grizzle about Broad getting it for that amazing spell - blew the game away in ten overs.

alfie wrote:

Olly wrote:Root my man of the match - that innings in the context of the game truly world class

Yeah I think I'd have gone that way - no one else passed sixty in the match.  But I can't grizzle about Broad getting it for that amazing spell - blew the game away in ten overs.

Me too - although very narrowly.

I'm also not grizzling about Broad getting it but if Root had gone soon after we were 91/4, you have to think that things might well have worked out differently.

That's a great win. I think Broad is a fair choice as motm, batsmen very often get the plaudits and Root was class, but surely that spell is one of the most devastating ever bowled, 5-1 I think it was!

Great series win, I don't buy all this SA in transition nonsense, the England line up has a lot of new players too

Broad's contribution was the match winning one whereas Root's was more damage limitation, taking nothing away from what was a brilliant century.

Just got home from the Wanderers...

Think I just witneased the burial of SA cricket

MOM always goes to the batsmen though so fair enough that Broad got it. More seriously, Root's innings hauled England to parity, but it was Broad's spell which won it for them. Not that Root's wasn't a seriously classy knock mind.

HH mentioned a couple of pages back that this was the seventh time Broad took five wickets (or more) in a single spell of bowling. That's rather special, and must be close to the best for a pace bowler? (I imagine Murali tops the all-time list)

Alfie I think also mentioned that Broad has become more consistent, which is definitely something I agree with. He still has these hot streaks, but he's learned to still be effective and take wickets when he's not so hot, and the days where he's below par are rarer and rarer. In fact, over the last four or five years he's apparently the leading wicket-taker in Tests, and he's getting those wickets at an average in the mid twenties. I wonder if when his career's done he'll actually compare favourably to Anderson? Wouldn't bet against it.

Really impressed by Stokes in this Test actually. Bowled really well in both innings, getting prodigious swing. I thought his spell after lunch on day 1 (when he didn't actually get a wicket) was reallly really good, and today he was excellent. His batting of course helped turn England's innings around completely.

For England, Hales could really have done with a little not out. He's not looked out of place in this series, and SA isn't easy for opening bats, but he hasn't grabbed his chance either. Problem is they're not exactly queueing up behind him. For me, he could do with playing in a freer manner TBH, at times he's looked like he's trying almost too hard not to get out doing something silly...

Compton and Taylor have rather tailed off after a useful start, with some of Compton's dismissals being a bit disappointing. Think they've both earned a bit of a run in the side, and Taylor's excellence at short-leg is a nice bonus, but if someone in the County game can pile on some early runs they'll be pushing hard...

Cook hasn't scored any big runs, but he's not looked out of touch, just seems to keep getting out when he makes a mistake, and he's captained the side with quiet assurance. Root is class. Stokes might occasionally be frustrating, but I remember Mike Selig after the first Test telling me that with a decent tail he was the sort of player England should keep picking, because he has the ability to turn and win matches. How right he was!

Bairstow has batted really superbly this series, probably better than anyone else on either side. His keeping is a work in progress, but is improving, and it's worth mentioning how well he did for that run out of Bavuma in the first innings - Villas missed a similar chance on Stokes early on.

Moeen looks a bit out of form with the bat, which is a bit of a concern. His bowling has been pretty decent, and he's provided good back-up to the seamerss (and better in the first game). Could do with some runs. Broad and Finn have been superb, with the former's return to some form with the bat welcome. Anderson a bit under par, for some reason he's never bowled that well in SA.

Seems Finn will miss out in the last Test with a side issue, no need to risk him. I see mention of Footitt being picked in his place, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Woakes TBH.

For SA, there are big problems. Elgar looks a good player, but after the first innings of the series he's rather tended to get himself out when well set. Van Zyl isn't an opener, simple as that. He doesn't look a bad player, but I'm not sure he's good enough to score runs at this level. Amla is back into some sort of form, he got a great ball in the first innings, and was a bit unlucky in this one.

De Villers is class, everyone can get a good ball early on now and then. Du Plessis still looks a good player, but one desperately struggling with confidence. Just seems to have gone completely into his shell, and unable to score at the moment. Bavuma looks really promising, nice compact technique and good range of shots. Poor running in the first innings, and unlucky in the second really.

Villas looks a solid batsman too, at least on these faster pitches. His keeping was excellent, moves really nicely, and took some fine catches (Cook, Root, Moeen). Tough call between him and De Kock.

I think SA need to sort out the balance of their attack though. Here they went in with no spinner, and four fast bowlers all bowling about the same pace. Viljoen I can't see being a success at Test level if this is his level, just not consistent enough, and not quite quick enough to bully batsmen out. He'll get a few wickets, because he bowls some cracking balls, but in between he'll leak far too many runs.

Rabada is a terrific prospect, but SA need to be very careful about handling him. He's bowled a lot of overs in the two Tests he's played so far. Morkel hasn't quite been at his best in this series, though he's bowled some good spells. Morris I don't think will get that many good batsmen out regularly. There's not much wrong with him, but he reminds me a bit of Woakes. Think SA need to stand by Piedt as the spinner, he looked quite promising, and think about the balance of the bowling attack. But the bigger problems are with their batting.

I would agree with Broad as MoM.  His contribution simply transformed the game in a few overs.  Root's innings was superb and he would have been a shoe-in if the SA 2nd innings wickets had been shared just a little more evenly!

Root's knock was superb and it kept England in contention but Stokes and Bairstow played their part in getting England into a narrow lead. At lunch today the match was still on a knife edge but Broad's performance with the ball changed the test into a bit of a massacre in the end. Merits the award for me.

MfC - that's an excellent post. Going out now (theatre with Mrs Bat - always a good stand by Christmas present! ) but will comment a bit more later tonight or tomorrow.

Tremendous stuff. Broad is now England's number 1 seamer, no doubt about that.

And Root, ah Joseph Edward Root, what a talent.

3/1 by the bookmakers on England winning this series, what idiots.

Stuart Broad is 29, test wickets at same age:
Broad 330
Steyn 299
McGrath 266
Anderson 240
Walsh 174

From Dan Kennett on twitter

This is easily the second worst day of cricket I've ever seen live from South Africa. On the bright side... the Barmy Army bought me half my drinks there.

Not much to say from an SA standpoint but our batting sucks.

Broad if he carries on bowling well into his mid 30's will surpass McGrath's seamers record quite comfortably if you ask me.

MfC - Of course I've watched more of Viljoen than you, so I'll naturally give him more rope than you, but I'm surprised that you called time on him after what was essentially one innings. And only Ten overs of that one innings as well. He's never gonna be a Dale Steyn type bowler with accuracy beautiful flowing action. More of a Mitchell Johnson type bowler. With that comes bad days. He had one of them yesterday but he's certainly worth persisting with.

kingraf wrote:MfC - Of course I've watched more of Viljoen than you, so I'll naturally give him more rope than you, but I'm surprised that you called time on him after what was essentially one innings. And only Ten overs of that one innings as well. He's never gonna be a Dale Steyn type bowler with accuracy beautiful flowing action. More of a Mitchell Johnson type bowler. With that comes bad days. He had one of them yesterday but he's certainly worth persisting with.

Obviously, kingraf you know the South African players far better than me but from what I've seen I'd say Kyle Abbott is more worthy of a place than Viljoen.

Abbott's alright but he lacks X Factor. Can seam it a bit. Can swing it a bit. Has a bit of pace. But tends to be very unthreatening. With Viljoen the extra 5-10kph he has on Abbott means even when he isnt quite on, he can spring a good one out of nowhere. His first three or four overs yesterday were very good. Erratic but he was throwing in two or three good balls an over. Unfortunately couldn't find another edge but that's the game.

MfC is right in that a team can't have too many of him in a team though so maybe for the sake of balance Abbott should have been picked. Remember Michael Clarke saying the same thing about having both Mitchell and Mitchell in the Ashes. A car with two accelerators and no brake isnt always the best idea. Still the attack can't be all bad if they ultimately kept England to about the same score they scored?

Just an observation but Viljoen was more erratic than Abbott who gives more control. Also Viljoen has to work on his fitness. I would say as well that out and out pace is not the be all and end all as Viljoen has more pace than Broad but I know who is the more likely to take wickets.

Well done England!

We're in a bit of a rebuilding phase at the moment so gut calls are going to have to be taken on certain spots. Over the last, say three seasons, there hasn't been much to choose between Abbott and Viljoen domestically. Abbott has played international cricket so he's more refined, but the feeling in the selectors office and from local journos is that Viljoen has a higher ceiling. Its going to be interesting when Steyn and Philander return because they obviously walk into the side, but Rabada has arguably outbowled Morkel for two games on the bounce. Then you've got Piedt who wasnt picked here, but that was a horses for courses selection and not indicative of any future plans. Morris as MfC touched on doesn't quite look a strike bowler, but if he can average ~30 with the bst and take three wickets a game, then there might be something for him as a bowling all rounder. We obviously can't bat so there's now logic in considering a players batting abilities when picking a bowler.

Overall, I'm okay with the bowling. We've got options depth and its just a case of creating the right combinations. This is probably as good as we've had bowling depth tbh. Doesn't mean a damn thing if they don't have a total to play with though

kingraf wrote:


Overall, I'm okay with the bowling. We've got options depth and its just a case of creating the right combinations. This is probably as good as we've had bowling depth tbh. Doesn't mean a damn thing if they don't have a total to play with though

I would agree with that certainly but there again who would you drop and who would you bring in? In the batting line-up that is.

Not a cooking clue mate. If it was just the one batsman or even two then I'd have suggestions, but the whole batting team seems to be afflicted with the yips. A guy like Stiaan needs to obviously go back to FC cricket, but what is he working on? No clue, because he's got on in a myriad of ways. He's been bowled leaving. Been bowled playing forward defence. Been run out. Been caught playing probably the laziest pull you'll ever see. And now caught pushing at an admittedly good ball. Maybe its a concentration issue. Stephen Cook needs to come in for him. He's racked up seven tons in his last nine domestic games. The selectors are apprehensive about picking him, because he's turning 34 this year but the Rogers experiment should allay those fears. If he gets a good 30-35 Tests while waiting for the next Decent young opener so be it. It beats the hell out of the alternative which appears to be almost certainly picking young rock stars out of position and sacrificing them on the altar of the cricketing gods.

Faf du Plessis: MfC says he's low on confidence, that may be the case but its also a matter of him batting in the strangest way imaginable. He's got a HUGE IPL contract has had a good run in ODI for the last 18 months and yet seems to only possess one gear. Its not working. It drags us down when the team is on top and having a guy at the other end watching a collapse contrary to popular belief, isnt in anyway helpful. Its not a recent thing either his SR for the last two years is about 33-35. I saw him play the most painstakingly boring knock against Zimbabwe in 2014 where he played well to get to 50 and then dropped anchor and didn't go anywhere and then got duly dismissed on 98. No disrespect to Zimbabwe but if you can't change gears against them theres a huge chance that you have a very real problem. I suppose Rilee Russouw could come in but until this week he hadnt played red ball cricket for two years and duly got tangled in a low scoring game on a minefield so he won't have much form.

Quinny will come in for Vilas because he has X-factor. Which is partly the problem. We're currently fitting square pegs in round holes with the bat. The whole team is batting really conservatively and they honestly don't know how.

The worst thing to happen to South Africa waits the batters paradise in the second test, it must have given them a false sense of turning the corner when in fact they hadn't. Amla, Du Plessis and Bavuma all scored big runs but lets be honest none of them look capable of scoring anything significant when it really matters.

Rabada is the only positive you can take from this series i'd have thought Raf, he looks dangerous if a little wild at times, needs to work on fitness as he's very much a one innings bowler at the moment.

Rabada is the only real bright spark of whats been a nightmare series but I think asa whole the bowlers haven't done too badly. In Kingsmead all the experts thought England's first Innings total was below par. In the the second dig Steyn went down pretty early and I thought they again did alright to limit the damage to 315ish down a bowler. In Newlands the second day was a nightmare but I thought that they bowled well until the 80th over. Having England 220-5 turned out to be a pretty good effort on that deck. The final day as well good effort to try nick a game. Then on to the Wanderers, gave runs away a breakneck pace but took wickets the entire time. So I think the bowling team can look on their work and think we've worked hard and done okay. Morkel maybe can feel a little bit disappointed. He's waited a long time for a chance to shine and he's been completely upstaged by a kid with four caps. If he doesn't step it up in Centurion I think this may be his last Test series. At 31 he isn't getting any younger and he lacks the canny which you'd really think a ten year pro would have acquired to age gracefully as a bowler.

I did worry that Newlands was a red herring, but of the three you mentioned, Amla is too good to stay in a rut. Bavuma has the shots and he showed serious stick around ability in India so I think he'll come good. Not an Amla-AB level player but a solid pro. Faf though, I fear he's shot to pieces. That Adelaide innings was his making and I fear it will be his demise. Its convinced him that the only way to succeed in Test cricket is to play back to wall thou shall not pass cricket, even when the situation clearly demands something else. Anything else.

Overally though. Nightmare tour. As I feared.

Anyway before I continue to wallow in sorrow. Congratulations to all the English fans. It's been a while since we were so convincingly put aside at home. In fact I was there the last time it happened. When Australia beat us by an innings and 216 runs inside three days. This ranks right next to it

Maybe a bit harsh on Amla but I never felt he was as good as his record suggested, without Smith and Kallis I think he's been found wanting when it matters and I don't think he's the right sort of character to be the spearhead of a line up.