England Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:For the Six Nations, maybe we should clone Jamie George.  Could you imagine 15 of these on the pitch?  Would scare the daylights out of everyone.  I love this picture.  

I think its safe to see you'll be seeing him on Saturday for at least 20 mins...and that's a good thing.

No you won't unless the game is well and truly won with a 20 plus margin.

Thing is with Care, if uou overcommit to defending route one, he will attack the gap and even though you know he'll do it, it doesn't make it easy to stop him

ChequeredJersey wrote:Thing is with Care, if uou overcommit to defending route one, he will attack the gap and even though you know he'll do it, it doesn't make it easy to stop him

I agree and that is why i like him as he reminds me of Peel and now Webb but IMO is better.

Might mean Tipuric gets the nod as the guy is frankly the best open side in Wales.

How is he doing for the club?

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:For the Six Nations, maybe we should clone Jamie George.  Could you imagine 15 of these on the pitch?  Would scare the daylights out of everyone.  I love this picture.  

I think its safe to see you'll be seeing him on Saturday for at least 20 mins...and that's a good thing.

Will Eddie pull his captain off if the game is not already in the bag with 20 to go?

Yeah the general feeling in all the papers that seem to be in the know is that he'll give him 50-60 mins and then George will come on.

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Thing is with Care, if uou overcommit to defending route one, he will attack the gap and even though you know he'll do it, it doesn't make it easy to stop him

I agree and that is why i like him as he reminds me of Peel and now Webb but IMO is better.

Might mean Tipuric gets the nod as the guy is frankly the best open side in Wales.

How is he doing for the club?

Care is in good form. Captaincy seems to work for him.

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:For the Six Nations, maybe we should clone Jamie George.  Could you imagine 15 of these on the pitch?  Would scare the daylights out of everyone.  I love this picture.  

I think its safe to see you'll be seeing him on Saturday for at least 20 mins...and that's a good thing.

No you won't unless the game is well and truly won with a 20 plus margin.

Hartley will be nowhere near fit enough to last a full match no matter what the score.

Jones is naming his VC on Thursday aswell...many saying Mike Brown. He will take over for the final 20.

Jamie George is class...I have no worries bringing him on. By rights he should be starting on form this season!

I'm not sure about Brown being in charge for the last 20 :/

I would agree about Hartley's fitness. And Scotland will likely run at him to see what he has from a physical and emotional point of view.

Not sure Brown would make a good captain. Besides, it is unusual to have a fullback captain a team because they are not in the fray so much.

Brown is often "in the fray". But he's liable to act on heart not on head

Oh yes please

Until Brown can take charge of himself i can't see him being able to lead a pro rugby team

I'm just going on what some of the reports say about VC. Maybe completely wrong.

However ill not be wrong about Hartley not lasting the full match. Has he actually played a game recently?

I dont see Eddie taking his Capt off it is close.

That would have been a Stewie move no doubt.

I 'd expect Eddie to send him message to swing into action.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm just going on what some of the reports say about VC. Maybe completely wrong.

However ill not be wrong about Hartley not lasting the full match. Has he actually played a game recently?

Played the last 4 or 5 matches. Agree he is still getting into shape. Hasn't played much this season due to injury.

Hartley is not match fit.

He simply wont last 80 mins of intnerational test match rugby in a old rival game at murrayfield.

Trust me...Jones is not stupid enough to leave on a player who is blowing out of his backside at 50 mins. Especially when he has a quality replacement on the bench.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hartley is not match fit.

He simply wont last 80 mins of intnerational test match rugby in a old rival game at murrayfield.

Trust me...Jones is not stupid enough to leave on a player who is blowing out of his backside at 50 mins. Especially when he has a quality replacement on the bench.

Fair enough. Good to have a stand in like George to put pressure on him. But Brown as VC when you have the likes of Haskell and Launchbury? I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hartley is not match fit.

He simply wont last 80 mins of intnerational test match rugby in a old rival game at murrayfield.

Trust me...Jones is not stupid enough to leave on a player who is blowing out of his backside at 50 mins. Especially when he has a quality replacement on the bench.

This would be very messy, no?

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm just going on what some of the reports say about VC. Maybe completely wrong.

However ill not be wrong about Hartley not lasting the full match. Has he actually played a game recently?

Played the last 4 or 5 matches.  Agree he is still getting into shape.  Hasn't played much this season due to injury.

He retuned from concussion on boxing Day.

Since then he has started 3, been on the bench once and missed a week with a niggle. 224 minutes of rugby. Shoudl be OK for the usual hookers stint, but fitness is less of a concern for me than current form.

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hartley is not match fit.

He simply wont last 80 mins of intnerational test match rugby in a old rival game at murrayfield.

Trust me...Jones is not stupid enough to leave on a player who is blowing out of his backside at 50 mins. Especially when he has a quality replacement on the bench.

Fair enough. Good to have a stand in like George to put pressure on him. But Brown as VC when you have the likes of Haskell and Launchbury? I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

Maybe the brown thoughts are inaccurate. Maybe it will be Launchbury or someone. Haskell maybe.

Why can't Billy V last 80?

He did the whole of the last 6n.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm just going on what some of the reports say about VC. Maybe completely wrong.

However ill not be wrong about Hartley not lasting the full match. Has he actually played a game recently?

Played the last 4 or 5 matches.  Agree he is still getting into shape.  Hasn't played much this season due to injury.

He retuned from concussion on boxing Day.

Since then he has started 3, been on the bench once and missed a week with a niggle. 224 minutes of rugby. Shoudl be OK for the usual hookers stint, but fitness is less of a concern for me than current form.

I agree his form isn't great

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hartley is not match fit.

He simply wont last 80 mins of intnerational test match rugby in a old rival game at murrayfield.

Trust me...Jones is not stupid enough to leave on a player who is blowing out of his backside at 50 mins. Especially when he has a quality replacement on the bench.

Fair enough. Good to have a stand in like George to put pressure on him. But Brown as VC when you have the likes of Haskell and Launchbury? I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

Maybe the brown thoughts are inaccurate.  Maybe it will be Launchbury or someone.  Haskell maybe.

Why can't Billy V last 80?

He did the whole of the last 6n.

ok just thinking that jones is unlikely to have a 15 take over as skipper in the last 20 when he's made it clear its a forward based england and picked a hooker as capt

Therefore a replacement in the pack seems likely

leaves only 2 options for me in launch and haskell.

or, Robshaw?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:
I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

Maybe the brown thoughts are inaccurate.  Maybe it will be Launchbury or someone.  Haskell maybe.

Why can't Billy V last 80?

He did the whole of the last 6n.

There cannot have been many forwards to play every minute of every game across last years tournament. But yup, billy was one of them.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:
I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

Maybe the brown thoughts are inaccurate.  Maybe it will be Launchbury or someone.  Haskell maybe.

Why can't Billy V last 80?

He did the whole of the last 6n.

There cannot have been many forwards to play every minute of every game across last years tournament. But yup, billy was one of them.

When Lancaster played Vunipola and Morgan in the same match day squad - something I disliked - the initial reasoning seemed to be that neither could last eighty minutes. As time went on, however, it almost became "Since I have both, I WILL make a change". It took an injured Morgan to show that it wasn't actually necessary.

From the Telegraph....Care, Marler and Kruis to start

Eddie Jones will on Thursday name a starting XV to face Scotland for the Six Nations opener against Scotland at Murrayfield with over double the caps of the side that Stuart Lancaster took to Edinburgh for his first game in charge four years ago, despite retaining just 12 of the 23-man squad that crashed out of the World Cup against Australia last October.

Jones is poised to give debuts to three players - Paul Hill, Jack Clifford and Ollie Devoto – who are expected to be named on the bench while Maro Itoje, who will travel to Edinburgh as one of two reserves, could also win his first cap if Courtney Lawes fails to recover from a hamstring injury.

The Australian however will name a relatively experienced starting XV despite making wholesale changes to the side that crashed 33-13 to Australia at Twickenham, with line-up boasting a total caps of 512, an average of just over 34 per player.
That level of experience is in start contrast to the side that Lancaster first selected as he attempted to rebuild England in the wake of the 2011 World Cup campaign, which featured a combined total number of caps of just 232 — an average of just 15.4 per player including four debutants Owen Farrell, Brad Barritt, Mouritz Botha and Phil Dowson.

Four players in the starting XV have more than 50 caps each, including new captain Dylan Hartley (66), James Haskell (62), who will start at openside flanker, tighthead prop Dan Cole and Danny Care (53), who is poised to return to the starting XV in place of Ben Youngs.

Joe Marler, the Harlequins loosehead prop, is understood to have edged out Mako Vunipola while George Kruis and Joe Launchbury will start in the second row. The refreshed back row will see Chris Robshaw start on the blindside flank, with Billy Vunipola starting at No 8.
George Ford will be the starting fly-half with Owen Farrell switching to inside centre, a position he also played in Lancaster’s first side, with Jonathan Joseph claiming the 13 shirt.

Mike Brown retains his place at full-back ahead of Alex Goode, while Anthony Watson and Jack Nowell are expected to be named on the wings.
Itoje and Wasps centre Elliot Daly will travel to Edinburgh as reserves, with the Saracens lock on standby as Lawes continues his rehabilitation on a hamstring injury that has prevented him from playing a full part in the squad’s preparations this week.

“Courtney hasn’t trained with the team, he has been working with the physios and doing individual work,” said Steve Borthwick, the England forwards coach.
“Hopefully he has a huge future in front of him. He has shown the potential he has and our job now is to help him develop and learn so that he can be an international for England for a long time.

Eddie Jones has some tough decisions to make
“He’s a young guy and we have some experience there in Courtney. When Maro spends time around the World Cup, hopefully it will lay the foundation for an England career that will last a lot of years.
“We don’t need to be rushing it, we just need to make sure that when he’s absolutely ready to go.
“Being able to play six and second row is helpful in many ways and it will be interesting to see how he develops.
“He certainly has the athleticism to operate at six and that’s a huge asset for him.”

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:
I can't see Billy lasting 80 either so expect to see Hask on for 80. Launch likewise.

Maybe the brown thoughts are inaccurate.  Maybe it will be Launchbury or someone.  Haskell maybe.

Why can't Billy V last 80?

He did the whole of the last 6n.

There cannot have been many forwards to play every minute of every game across last years tournament. But yup, billy was one of them.

When Lancaster played Vunipola and Morgan in the same match day squad - something I disliked - the initial reasoning seemed to be that neither could last eighty minutes. As time went on, however, it almost became "Since I have both, I WILL make a change". It took an injured Morgan to show that it wasn't actually necessary.

All of which comments loops us back to Lancaster making his pre-planned substitutions mostly regardless of game situation and player performance. In many cases things became the self-fulfilling prophesy. An endless computer loop, as it were.

Marler? Surprised

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:For the Six Nations, maybe we should clone Jamie George.  Could you imagine 15 of these on the pitch?  Would scare the daylights out of everyone.  I love this picture.  

I think its safe to see you'll be seeing him on Saturday for at least 20 mins...and that's a good thing.

Will Eddie pull his captain off if the game is not already in the bag with 20 to go?

He's pretty much already stated that he will take Hartley off. Whether this is due to front rows rarely playing 80 minutes now, Hartley not being full match fit or wanting to give George a go we don't know.

Whatever the reason is I'll be very glad for George to get as much game time as possible. He is as strong as Hartley in the set-piece but a better ball carrier with room for more improvement.

Plus pictures like that remind me that rugby players who spend more time training with a rugby ball in hand then they do in the gym still have a pace in the modern game

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you guys think that that win in Cardiff made England all the more complacent going into the game they then lost against Wales at the RWC...???

Not really.

I think we froze at the WC. We played some nice stuff building up to the competition but the selections and injuries forced SL to compromise the attacking game that had worked so well with this bizarre containment game. He just basically got it wrong. He tried to change the forwards from this almost dominant pack that could mix it up to a pack of 8 flankers. The set piece suffered and struggled in the contact.

The game against Aus was more of a showcase of this. We bossed Aus on previous occasions and the set piece seemed to be taken for granted. We lost the scrum and struggled with the physicality. In previous games we were able to physically outmuscle the Aus pack and prevent Pocock from getting into the game, we didn't get near that in the WC.

We basically froze against Wales and winning would have papered over the cracks.  

Wrong

He took Burgess off.

And what does 'almost dominant' mean? you either are or you aren't.

I think you are both right. Lancaster certainly got the approach to the RWC very wrong. Despite that, England were still in position to beat Wales until Burgess was replaced, essentially by Ford. That said, there was no possible way England would have beaten the Wallabies whether they outlasted wales in that match or not.

king_carlos wrote:"Manu Tuilagi's hamstring was a bit tight after the Stade Francais game, and he had it scanned and there was the tiniest of strains there. It is nothing serious." - Cockers after the Gloucs game.

Coming back from that long out minor soft tissue injuries are very common as guys ease themselves back in.

The idea that Manu should feature during the 6 Nations during a time when he should still be 'easing back in' is ridiculous IMO so if these 2 weeks out mean he won't be able to reach the match fitness required for the later stages it won't be the worst thing in the long run.

Hopefully it will also force Jones to consider a Devoto or Hill at 12 rather than shifting Farrell. The fact he has already talked about Farrell at 12 as a needs must situation until Manu is fit suggest a plan of papering over the cracks that just sparks deja vu from the old set-up.

King Carlos and his crystal balls