England Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

He looked quick enough against Toulouse..... To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth. I'd be amazed if there was any significant difference in pace over 30 metres between him and Brown. Both of them are quick enough to do a job, but far from lightening.

And are you suggesting Saracens have a FB who can't field a high ball and can't tackle?

DaveM wrote:He looked quick enough against Toulouse..... To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth. I'd be amazed if there was any significant difference in pace over 30 metres between him and Brown. Both of them are quick enough to do a job, but far from lightening.

And are you suggesting Saracens have a FB who can't field a high ball and can't tackle?

He has weaknesses in both those areas, yes

OK I apologise, this season, two poor games aside, Goode's tackle stats are much better than I expected -

AP - 19 made, 5 missed in 8 games (2.375 per game and 79% completion)
Europe - 4 made, 1 missed in 4 starts and 1 sub (1 per start and 80% completion)

Those are better than I expected.

DaveM wrote: To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth.

It really isn't a myth. For all his qualities, Goode is outright slow. Here's a clip of his break from under the posts vs Ireland:



Look at how much ground he gives up. That's not a one off. To some extent his spatial awareness mitigates against his lack of pace, but it leaves him with more to do.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

DaveM wrote:He looked quick enough against Toulouse..... To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth. I'd be amazed if there was any significant difference in pace over 30 metres between him and Brown. Both of them are quick enough to do a job, but far from lightening.

And are you suggesting Saracens have a FB who can't field a high ball and can't tackle?

He has weaknesses in both those areas, yes

I am not sure Goode is weak under the high ball, and purely on this seasons form has been better than Brown and Watson. He has been overpowered in one-on-one head on tackles - but as your stats show in the follow up post, FBs make so few tackles nowadays.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

DaveM wrote: To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth.

It really isn't a myth. For all his qualities, Goode is outright slow. Here's a clip of his break from under the posts vs Ireland:



Look at how much ground he gives up. That's not a one off. To some extent his spatial awareness mitigates against his lack of pace, but it leaves him with more to do.

while I agree that goode does not have top end pace, that is a really poor example of his lack of pace. Henshaw (who is pacy) is running at speed when he pokes the kick through and can easily slip into top gear, Goode has to turn and accelerate from a standing start - of course he will give up ground.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was little difference between how fast Brown and Goode are. What is different is what happens when they do run the ball back at international level. Brown adds momentum. He breaks the first tackle with great regularity. Everybody knows that is going to happen most times he gets the ball, but he always causes problems for the other team. Goode seems to run into the smallest guy on the pitch and gets smashed on his back.

Its like the Tom Youngs thing. I do really like TY and I would not have dropped him, but there is that thing when he comes on as a sub and takes the first lineout, and you almost expect things to go horribly wrong.

I don't dislike Goode at all. He is a very smart player with some real strengths, but I have seldom seen anything at international level which give me any confidence with him at full back.

It is not just how well a guy is playing. We quite rightly did not pick Steffon Armitage when he was the best in Europe. That was mainly because of the not playing in England thing, but it was also because his style of play was so different than the way we were playing. We could have restructured the pack around him had he been available and it might have worked and it might not. It is a team game.

Current dream team (injuries don't exist)!

Marler Hartley Brookes
Lawes Launchbury(c)
Armitage Vunipola Haskell
Youngs Cipriani
Tuilagi Slade
Wade Nowell
Brown

Vunipola George Cole
Itoge Kvesic
Simpson Joseph
Watson

My concern is, that for all our supposed depth the question still remains, 'Is the pack nasty enough'?

Coaches; Jones, Baxter, Diamond

I like that King - no back up FH though Slade could slot in if u get lucky.
I would still have Kruis in for Lawes. I need to see Lawes get back to his best form & I haven't seen that for a while now.

Interesting quote from Jones re: Clifford :

""He has been a revelation," said Jones. "He has great acceleration, physical power and he can do the simple things well.

"His best position is definitely going to be No.8, but he might have to start off as a seven."

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

DaveM wrote: To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth.

It really isn't a myth. For all his qualities, Goode is outright slow. Here's a clip of his break from under the posts vs Ireland:



Look at how much ground he gives up. That's not a one off. To some extent his spatial awareness mitigates against his lack of pace, but it leaves him with more to do.

Maybe a certain lack of pace is part of the Goode family. Andy is not so fast either.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

DaveM wrote: To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth.

It really isn't a myth. For all his qualities, Goode is outright slow. Here's a clip of his break from under the posts vs Ireland:



Look at how much ground he gives up. That's not a one off. To some extent his spatial awareness mitigates against his lack of pace, but it leaves him with more to do.

Odd clip to show to knock Goode - he does excellent work to dig England out of a hole, after a great kick & chase by Ireland. I'd say the dropped catch in midfield by England, and the poor pass at the end by Ireland are the crapola bits here. Still, I'd rather have Brown.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

DaveM wrote: To be honest I think this pace thing is a myth.

It really isn't a myth. For all his qualities, Goode is outright slow. Here's a clip of his break from under the posts vs Ireland:



Look at how much ground he gives up. That's not a one off. To some extent his spatial awareness mitigates against his lack of pace, but it leaves him with more to do.

Odd clip to show to knock Goode - he does excellent work to dig England out of a hole, after a great kick & chase by Ireland. I'd say the dropped catch in midfield by England, and the poor pass at the end by Ireland are the crapola bits here. Still, I'd rather have Brown.

I get your point - but I wasn't using the clip to knock Goode per se, just to illustrate a point. Goode certainly did great work under the posts. That's necessitated, however, by the fact the Irish chase are on top of him. I'd also disagree with London Tiger's view on this, too. Goode's acceleration is horrible there. It's like watching Gregan vs Habana. Perhaps I'm just being stubborn though.

Regardless, whether or not anyone agrees with my example, I think most people do agree that as it stands, Goode lacks some necessary physical qualities for test rugby. It really is a shame he didn't start working with a sprint trainer a few years ago (I'm assuming he hasn't).

I also worry about the potential for a horribly slow backline should Watson, for example, get injured. As many others have pointed out, it's something Lancaster was guilty of. I do wonder the extent to which coaches consider the potential impact of injuries when planning benches. Of course they must, it's just that sometimes it seems otherwise.

mid_gen wrote:Interesting quote from Jones re: Clifford :

""He has been a revelation," said Jones. "He has great acceleration, physical power and he can do the simple things well.

"His best position is definitely going to be No.8, but he might have to start off as a seven."

So did Dallaglio

So I was right about Manu

Out again for the full 6 n!!!

Ffs Manu

GeordieFalcon wrote:So I was right about Manu

Out again for the full 6 n!!!

BBC wrote:Leicester Tigers boss Richard Cockerill says that England centre Manu Tuilagi's latest injury is "nothing serious" - and that he could still figure in this year's Six Nations.

Something new happen?

"Manu Tuilagi's hamstring was a bit tight after the Stade Francais game, and he had it scanned and there was the tiniest of strains there. It is nothing serious." - Cockers after the Gloucs game.

Coming back from that long out minor soft tissue injuries are very common as guys ease themselves back in.

The idea that Manu should feature during the 6 Nations during a time when he should still be 'easing back in' is ridiculous IMO so if these 2 weeks out mean he won't be able to reach the match fitness required for the later stages it won't be the worst thing in the long run.

Hopefully it will also force Jones to consider a Devoto or Hill at 12 rather than shifting Farrell. The fact he has already talked about Farrell at 12 as a needs must situation until Manu is fit suggest a plan of papering over the cracks that just sparks deja vu from the old set-up.

Lets face it England's last real success was due to Manu who is a class apart and without him they are seriously depleted.

His current injury may be linked to the rehab for his groin although a hamstring is a common problem when returning to intense activity after a long lay off

I think he will now be out of Eddie's plans for this 6 Nations with the hope he can be ft for the summer. He is 24 and has a good few years ahead of him but for now England should find and settle another centre partnership.

Not sure I agree with the strength of your statement, Gwlad. I really don't think Manu was the reason for England's win over NZ, assuming that is the thing to which you refer

ChequeredJersey wrote:Not sure I agree with the strength of your statement, Gwlad. I really don't think Manu was the reason for England's win over NZ, assuming that is the thing to which you refer

true i think Clancy had his way that day.

ABs weren't well either.

You scamp

i think Manu has been the best centre since Greenwood tbh.

But i like what Eddie is doing and he has brought much needed credibility back to England though i still think Scots will win.

I wonder if Eddie has some 2003 PTSD going on….Ford AND Farrell? Last time i remember a team playing two 10s at FH and centre was Wilkinson AND Catt.

I'm pretty sure Wilko was FH with Flood at 12 in the 2011 WC.

Lancaster played Hodgson and Farrell when he first took over, and I'm fairly sure he rushed Farrell back from injury to line up alongside Ford.

Gwlad wrote:i think Manu has been the best centre since Greenwood tbh.

But i like what Eddie is doing and he has brought much needed credibility back to England though i still think Scots will win.

I wonder if Eddie has some 2003 PTSD going on….Ford AND Farrell? Last time i remember a team playing two 10s at FH and centre was Wilkinson AND Catt.

At one point England played Jonny and Toby Flood together.  

I think Farrell at 12 is a stop gap only.  Further, if Ford continues his mediocre play, Farrell will be 10 and Ford will be doing latrine duty.

Brown on the matter: “Dylan is a good appointment as leader,” says Brown. “He has shown what he can do at Northampton. I’ve grown up playing alongside him since the under-21s. He was a leader back then and he is now.” But will not the opposition target him, given his disciplinary record?
“Some would say the same about me, I guess,” he says. “They can try, I’m sure. I’m pretty positive he’ll be fine. I’m sure there are a few characters they can try and do the same to. It’s just about controlling yourself and dealing with that.”


I've not seen Brown pushed too far that he does something illegal or even not justified in at least 5 years. I think he'll be fine, it's not like Lancaster was Yoda and Jones is Palpatine.

As for Care, the general consensus is that he has hugely grown up in 4 years.

These players have kids now, some of them (Care does). Surely you can see how that might change their attitude?

I realise by accident, that I've answered a question from several pages back

The Guardian and Telegraph profiles of Eddie Jones' style of management are both in line with what I saw in Japan, and what Australians told me about how he handled the Wallabies.

I put the Telegraph link above, while here is the one for the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/30/eddie-jones-england-six-nations

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Whatever happens, assuming Eddie is going to be a success, (and that is, at this stage, still a big assumption) a lot of that success will be down to the foundations laid by Lancaster. The squad was never going to be significantly different (EPS change limits or otherwise) and the new faces were mostly the faces who were going to get a look in anyways.

Lancaster did not manage to squeeze the best out of his team and lost his nerve when it mattered most. Eddie might well get to the next level with team with the odd change of tactics and a few tweaks.

What a load of rubbish. Even now you just don't understand it at all do you?

Eddie will go back to what England used to do successfully; a nasty, forward dominant set piece game.

A total departure from what Stewie was trying to achieve which was squeezing perfect table manners out of his pupils and whispering its 'okay to try your best' when he tucked them in at night. Better to be nice than a winner.    And bless him, he certainly succeeded.

Eddie wants to WIN. Nothing else. And he doesn't give a fig about how he gets there.

Polite as ever. Maybe you don't understand what I wrote, and if it is so hard then maybe you should just put me on your foe list so as not to tax yourself too much.

England might play in a different way but the personnel won't be significantly different except for the fact that the new guys on the horizon are getting closer to being ready and the old guys are closer to being retired. A lot of the team developed under Lancaster, therefore Lancaster has helped to lay the foundations for Eddie's team

You want em to foe you because i disagree with you and think you're wrong?

The personnel might not be different but the coaching ethos couldn't be more different. No more play nicely, it is actually play nasty now because Eddie thinks its okay to win, in fact it is everything, whereas Stewie thought it was okay to take part as long as you were nice.

The team developed under Stewie in one way…they got older. In terms of pro sport they went backwards at such a rate of knots that eventually all the wheels came off. Dont you understand that even now?

And i suggest you foe me if you can't handle the truth.

king_carlos wrote:Hopefully it will also force Jones to consider a Devoto or Hill at 12 rather than shifting Farrell. The fact he has already talked about Farrell at 12 as a needs must situation until Manu is fit suggest a plan of papering over the cracks that just sparks deja vu from the old set-up.

Problem is hill has missed 5 weeks with injury, was eased back off the bench today and looked a touch rusty. Meanwhile Devoto is generally only used as a last resort by Bath so has no real match fitness. For now 12 remains an issue.

Just looking at who played there this weekend:

Saracens - Barritt, need I say anything?
Exeter - Whitten, NEQ
Leicester - Smith, good club player
Harlequins - Sloan, promising but only second choice at club behind Roberts
Wasps - Downey, NEQ
Northampton - Burrell, refer to Barritt
Sale - Tuitupou, NEQ
Gloucester - Twelvetrees, refer to Barritt
Bath - Bowden NEQ (I think, he was EQP at Leicester but by residency I believe)
Worcester - Mills, looked lightweight today.
Newcastle - Socino, NEQ
London Irish - Jonny Williams, promising but young and inexperienced.

12 has been an issue since Will Greenwood retired. The question is do you play a Farrell or ano out of position at 12 and hope that Manu gets fit and stays fit? Do you go out and pick someone young who is totally unproven but looks like they might have potential and invest some time in them? Or do you go with the safe option and pick the best available 12, which would be Barrritt?

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think you can wait around for any individual player to get fit, which seems to be what is happening. It is strange how we seem to consistently struggle to produce players in certain positions - 7 and 12 in particular.

One compliment handed to Jones though is that he can spot potential in a young player and hopefully he can see something in Devoto. There don't seem to be too many options at the moment.

Brooke's has been drafted into the squad for a he Scotland game in place of Henry Thomas.
Team will be announced on Thursday.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Brooke's has been drafted into the squad for a he Scotland game in place of Henry Thomas.
Team will be announced on Thursday.

I get the move since Saints pack pushed Bath's pack around. But I would prefer Brookes gets another week or so to recuperate. Give the slot to Paul Hill. He doesn't go backwards easily and it's time to give a young'un his due.

doctor_grey wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Brooke's has been drafted into the squad for a he Scotland game in place of Henry Thomas.
Team will be announced on Thursday.

I get the move since Saints pack pushed Bath's pack around.  But I would prefer Brookes gets another week or so to recuperate.  Give the slot to Paul Hill.  He doesn't go backwards easily and it's time to give a young'un his due.    

I agree Doc, a fully fit Brookes would be my first choice & he has recovered more quickly than expected. However, he didn't look his destructive best against Wasps which is understandable first game back.
I'm excited by Hill who offers plenty around the park. Reminds me of a young rampaging Marler when he first burst on the scene.

're devoto. If Eddie thinks he's good enough then I'm cool. We've not seen a lot of him for Bath but that maybe because the Bath coach hasn't got a clue.

That's true, he was stuck behind a flanker last season. Now moved off to Exeter where he'll be in another battle for the shirt.

He has all the attributes, I like him. He doesn't seem to fit into how Bath play for some reason but could really work on the Int stage.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Brooke's has been drafted into the squad for a he Scotland game in place of Henry Thomas.
Team will be announced on Thursday.

I get the move since Saints pack pushed Bath's pack around.  But I would prefer Brookes gets another week or so to recuperate.  Give the slot to Paul Hill.  He doesn't go backwards easily and it's time to give a young'un his due.    

I agree Doc, a fully fit Brookes would be my first choice & he has recovered more quickly than expected. However, he didn't look his destructive best against Wasps which is understandable first game back.
I'm excited by Hill who offers plenty around the park. Reminds me of a young rampaging Marler when he first burst on the scene.

Brookes had a couple of big scrums in first 10 minutes, but tired quickly and was really a nonentity for his last 20 minutes.

However Thomas was only in the squad to cover for Brookes injury, so makes sense for the English management to at least look at Brookes today and tomorrow. Agree though hope they release him back to saints for the weekend.

It's funny, you can play poorly, not even be first choice for your club, not even properly proven yourself at club level let alone any other level yet be fast tracked into the England 23.

No consistency......

Poor Eastmond too. He's been overshadowed first by another RL convert, now someone who hasn't done anything of note at any level.

Why on earth did he sign a new contract at Bath?

The player I am really pleased has revitalised his career with a change of club is James Short, Exeter have done a great job getting him back to his best.

I wouldn't say Devoto has been poor, he's looked pretty good when I've seen him.

Eastmond isn't good enough in my opinion.

Eastmond couldn't get in above a "flanker". The Bath coach has a lot of problems not least almost propping up the bottom of the AP table. He could be the next coach to walk.

Could be. Are Bath last now?

kingelderfield wrote:Current dream team (injuries don't exist)!

Marler Hartley Brookes
Lawes Launchbury(c)
Armitage Vunipola Haskell
Youngs Cipriani
Tuilagi Slade
Wade Nowell
Brown

Vunipola George Cole
Itoge Kvesic
Simpson Joseph
Watson

My concern is, that for all our supposed depth the question still remains, 'Is the pack nasty enough'?

Coaches; Jones, Baxter, Diamond

Might be difficult that, George Cole died a way back.

LT I think you are mistaking the bearded wonders, I thought Brookes went off on about 60 on Friday and the rampaging powder puff that is Denman came on, similar beards but there it ends.

Brookes was off about the 50 minute mark I thought. Saw little of him in the second half, or as first neared it's end, and felt that after struggling for 10/15 minutes the Wasps scrum was starting to gain parity.

He started the match strongly, but it would not be a surprise if he faded as he had been out for a few weeks.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Hopefully it will also force Jones to consider a Devoto or Hill at 12 rather than shifting Farrell. The fact he has already talked about Farrell at 12 as a needs must situation until Manu is fit suggest a plan of papering over the cracks that just sparks deja vu from the old set-up.

Problem is hill has missed 5 weeks with injury, was eased back off the bench today and looked a touch rusty. Meanwhile Devoto is generally only used as a last resort by Bath so has no real match fitness. For now 12 remains an issue.

Just looking at who played there this weekend:

Saracens - Barritt, need I say anything?
Exeter - Whitten, NEQ
Leicester - Smith, good club player
Harlequins - Sloan, promising but only second choice at club behind Roberts
Wasps - Downey, NEQ
Northampton - Burrell, refer to Barritt
Sale - Tuitupou, NEQ
Gloucester - Twelvetrees, refer to Barritt
Bath - Bowden NEQ (I think, he was EQP at Leicester but by residency I believe)
Worcester - Mills, looked lightweight today.
Newcastle - Socino, NEQ
London Irish - Jonny Williams, promising but young and inexperienced.

A good summary LT. Whilst there is a good chance that Mills won't become more than a good Prem player he has really impressed in a plucky Worcs side. It's a shame that we don't have Saxons fixtures this year as I'd like to see him (and of course Pennell) get a chance to play with a stronger pack in front of him and a 10 such as Cipriani or Burns inside.

On England, that list sums up why I'd like to see a shot taken on Devoto (or Hill later in the tournament). There is no stand-out option or easy choice available, as such I think Jones should take a shot on a 12 rather than shoehorn Farrell in there and effectively state to the other options he doesn't think the others are good enough.

Plus shifting Farrell sends a message that he doesn't want his current strongest fly half running the show. After losing the shirt to Ford in many minds Farrell has earnt it back admirably with a very impressive run of games for Sarries, he should be rewarded with the 10 shirt and given a chance to offer more than he has previously.

Eddie jones has a history of spotting players and turning potential into actual. Maybe he can with Devoto.

I say again I think we'll see a structured disciplined performance on Saturday. The ball will be kicked in our own half. There'll be a strict plan for the breakdown. etc

Wont be pretty but could be effective.

All he wants is a win then have a successful tournament. Style can be worked on in the summer.

beshocked wrote:It's funny, you can play poorly, not even be first choice for your club, not even properly proven yourself at club level let alone any other level yet be fast tracked into the England 23.

I have to ask again, beshocked, why did you support the appointment of Eddie Jones as England coach? Didn't you look at how he has coached his previous sides?

Rugby Fan wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's funny, you can play poorly, not even be first choice for your club, not even properly proven yourself at club level let alone any other level yet be fast tracked into the England 23.

I have to ask again, beshocked, why did you support the appointment of Eddie Jones as England coach? Didn't you look at how he has coached his previous sides?

Probably thought he'd massively favour a certain club