6N Rugby - Italy v England

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England team to face Italy - Sunday

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 28 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 67 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 57 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 11 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 44 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 63 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 22 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 36 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 44 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 38 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 29 caps)
20 Maro Itoje (Saracens, uncapped)
21 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 1 cap)
22 Danny Care (Harlequins, 54 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 19 caps)

Goode might turn it around, but like his turning circle, it may take a very long time, by which time it'll be too late

Thankfully

beshocked wrote:lostinwales what was the backup strategy in the RWC?

Morgan had a poor RWC, allegedly wasn't fully fit. He's a great asset to England when in form but he wasn't. His AP form hasn't been that good really.

I am not suggesting Lancaster should have looked at Beaumount just pleased that Eddie Jones is if the rumours are true.

As for Easter... come on... a fully fit in form Morgan and Billy have always been better international no 8s in my opinion. Easter is 37 too. Good club no 8 - probably one of the best actually but never really excelled at international level.

Strangely Easter is a bit like Alex Goode in my opinion. Both excellent club players, neither really shone that much at international level, had their moments, both lack pace but have good rugby brains. The difference is Goode still might turn it around hopefully. Still has a lot of proving to do though.

With Billy injured, Morgan off colour, England were very weak at no 8.

That was a conversation about the RWC. There was a back up strategy its just it wasn't a very good one, as it depended on Morgan's fitness. Easter is a very marmite player and now is (finally) in the past tense for England, but I honestly believe he was a much better international than is often perceived, although obviously behind BV and a fit Morgan.

What I am saying is that the options are different now than they were in the RWC. We were overly dependent on BV, and are likely to continue to be as long as he stays fit, because he's a very good player. It's not Lancaster's fault that the backup was crocked at the RWC

bluestonevedder wrote:Good looking team.

Eddie stated in his interview that he wants 3 quality players at each position. Kruis has established himself as the current number 1 based off his performance against Scotland, so now EJ wants to know who's number 2. Hence Kruis dropping back for this game.

I'm surprised Beshocked is so unhappy with this, as this seems almost exactly how Sarries rotate their players, no matter form. And it works alright for them.

Of course it's all speculation by us at the moment.

lostinwales I just don't think Easter fared well comparatively to other no 8s for other countries in terms of ability. Not just the English ones. I agree it wasn't Lancaster's fault Morgan was crocked but you know you're in trouble when your 3rd choice is a 37 year old. He could have given Ewers some game time in the RWC warm ups.


Bambam Brown improved his performances by working with Margot Wells. That shows that it's possible for a player to change themselves.

Yappysnap not sure one performance is enough to make someone number 1 but game time is what I want to see for the youngsters.

I can not understand why Goode is on the bench over Daly. The last 3 6 nations have been won on points difference, meaning you have to score as much as possible in all games, but especially the ones you expect to win, to win overall.

With that in mind who is more likely to score/create a scoring opportunity - Goode or Daly.

No brainer for me and I am worried.

beshocked wrote:lostinwales I just don't think Easter fared well comparatively to other no 8s for other countries in terms of ability. Not just the English ones. I agree it wasn't Lancaster's fault Morgan was crocked but you know you're in trouble when your 3rd choice is a 37 year old. He could have given Ewers some game time in the RWC warm ups.

beshocked, I completely fail to understand why you think the RWC warm-ups are a time to try out new players, except when forced to by injury. As games they don't count for much, but they should be about bedding in what has been practiced in camp, and finalising the remaining decisions over squad pecking order. They would absolutely not be the place where I (or I suspect any sensible coach) would opt to try out untried players to give them game time or see if they could cut it. That would be tantamount to gambling on a throw of the dice.

As for Easter, I know he divides opinion: he's a throwback. He's more like Deano than Kaino. But that doesn't translate to lack of ability. As Brian Ashton put it "he brings subtlety, and that gives you options." But regardless, it was obvious from the warm ups that Morgan wasn't properly fit, and even Billy's form was shaky at that point. Easter was in better form than either of them from the game time we got to see. Age is irrelevant in the context of a single tournament; Lancaster had (sensibly) dropped him from the initial squad because it wasn't at all clear he'd be fit and in form in 2015. When it was, he came back into the reckoning for the 6N and should have played more in the RWC. Whatever you think of him, he and Mat Tait won more RWC knockout games than any other non-retired EQ player. In fact, I think they're the only available EQ players who have ever won an RWC knockout game.

I harken to the days of Rodber-Richards-Clarke in the backrow. Never set the world alight but put the fear of God into the opposition.

Who would be the equivalent now.

Ewers, Billy V, Haskell Same sort of size but nowhere near as menacing.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I harken to the days of Rodber-Richards-Clarke in the backrow. Never set the world alight but put the fear of God into the opposition.

Who would be the equivalent now.

Ewers, Billy V, Haskell Same sort of size but nowhere near as menacing.

6. Nathan Hughes
7. Dave Ewers
8. Billy Vuinipola

That's pretty intimidating...

Poorfour wrote:beshocked, I completely fail to understand why you think the RWC warm-ups are a time to try out new players, except when forced to by injury. As games they don't count for much, but they should be about bedding in what has been practiced in camp, and finalising the remaining decisions over squad pecking order. They would absolutely not be the place where I (or I suspect any sensible coach) would opt to try out untried players to give them game time or see if they could cut it. That would be tantamount to gambling on a throw of the dice.

Agree 100%. the warmups are not for giving first caps to unproven players, except in emergency. They are merely about fine-tuning who the backup players are and ensuring your starters are ready for the first game.

As for Easter, I know he divides opinion: he's a throwback. He's more like Deano than Kaino. But that doesn't translate to lack of ability. As Brian Ashton put it "he brings subtlety, and that gives you options." But regardless, it was obvious from the warm ups that Morgan wasn't properly fit, and even Billy's form was shaky at that point. Easter was in better form than either of them from the game time we got to see. Age is irrelevant in the context of a single tournament; Lancaster had (sensibly) dropped him from the initial squad because it wasn't at all clear he'd be fit and in form in 2015. When it was, he came back into the reckoning for the 6N and should have played more in the RWC. Whatever you think of him, he and Mat Tait won more RWC knockout games than any other non-retired EQ player. In fact, I think they're the only available EQ players who have ever won an RWC knockout game.

More than any non-retired I/S/WQP too. (just realised that Scotland have won just one WC knockout game, Ireland none and Wales two but separated by 24 years)

Goode just seems to be a waste of a card with Watson and Nowell both accomplished FB's. Foden or Yarde would offer more IMO

Poorfour wrote:...I completely fail to understand why you think the RWC warm-ups are a time to try out new players, except when forced to by injury...

I know that beshocked's support for the idea is entirely contingent on it being used for players he likes. I assume he'd be up in arms if someone he didn't rate got a debut in a World Cup warm-up, saying it was an inappropriate time.

However, it's not a terrible idea.

In the 2011 warm-ups, Johnson handed a starting debut to Tuilagi, with Botha and Sharples ready to debut from the bench, so it's not unknown (regardless of how you evaluate Johnson, or those players)

I find the World Cup cycle sometimes acts like a straitjacket, where you are supposed to aim for a settled team from around a year out. That seems to penalize players who are suddenly in great form, or young players who happen to turn up full of beans during the time time when the doors are closing.

I know this isn't remotely realistic in today's pragmatic rugby world, but I often have the following thought. It's said that flair players get second season blues because the opposition has time to work you out. Surely, then, the best time to steal a march on your World Cup opponents is to field a live wire when they know nothing about him.

I thought Johnson did the right thing adding Tuilagi to his World Cup Squad but his overall strategy didn't pay off.

Indeed Lancaster did the same thing with Slade.

And the other guy. Forget his name.

Thing with Tuilagi, that was his first season playing in the Leicester first team. He was still on an Academy contract and was originally in the England U20s squad for the 2011 6Ns. However injury to Mat Tait saw him called up to the Saxons.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the other guy. Forget his name.

Burgess was an abhorrent aberration.


the other new caps in the warm-ups (George and LCD as well) were really there to fight out for back-up spots. For me the point still stands that suddenley throwing someone into a warm up game merely to get experience is a waste of time and can disrupt the preparations.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the other guy. Forget his name.

Burgess was an abhorrent aberration.


the other new caps in the warm-ups (George and LCD as well) were really there to fight out for back-up spots. For me the point still stands that suddenley throwing someone into a warm up game merely to get experience is a waste of time and can disrupt the preparations.

Completely agree.

Tuilagi was a bit of a special case as he was pulling up trees in every competition and was potentially much better than what we had already, it was a risk worth taking. Itoje was well down on the pecking order(I honestly can't believe we're still talking about this) and wasn't better than what we had.

I don't overly mind the very late bolter but I thought both were mistakes, purely for the fact he played Burgess in the wrong position and didn't seem to trust Slade.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't overly mind the very late bolter but I thought both were mistakes, purely for the fact he played Burgess in the wrong position and didn't seem to trust Slade.

I honestly thought that when JJ was injured he was going to put Slade in at 13. And then that when Farrell went to 10 he'd play Care alongside so that there'd be some creativity in the backline. What might have been...

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:...I completely fail to understand why you think the RWC warm-ups are a time to try out new players, except when forced to by injury...

I know that beshocked's support for the idea is entirely contingent on it being used for players he likes. I assume he'd be up in arms if someone he didn't rate got a debut in a World Cup warm-up, saying it was an inappropriate time.

However, it's not a terrible idea.

In the 2011 warm-ups, Johnson handed a starting debut to Tuilagi, with Botha and Sharples ready to debut from the bench, so it's not unknown (regardless of how you evaluate Johnson, or those players)

I find the World Cup cycle sometimes acts like a straitjacket, where you are supposed to aim for a settled team from around a year out. That seems to penalize players who are suddenly in great form, or young players who happen to turn up full of beans during the time time when the doors are closing.

I know this isn't remotely realistic in today's pragmatic rugby world, but I often have the following thought. It's said that flair players get second season blues because the opposition has time to work you out. Surely, then, the best time to steal a march on your World Cup opponents is to field a live wire when they know nothing about him.

I thought Johnson did the right thing adding Tuilagi to his World Cup Squad but his overall strategy didn't pay off.

Frans Steyn was a world cup bolter in 2007. Was given a cap on the 2006 Autumn tour on the wing as a 19 year old when 30 boks were rested. Barely featured in the 3N of 2007 although had some brilliant cameos vs. AUS in Newlands and found himself starting in a world cup final 4 months later.

Poorfour it's an opportunity to try out new players without the fear of losing a game.

It's less of a gamble than deciding that the best time to throw in a debutant is a tougher match.

Rugby fan well I was up in arms about Calum Clark getting a debut in the warm ups. That was a masterstroke of course....

Burgess wasn't as bad as made out but just seemed to be mismanaged.

Londontiger

Well personally I still think Lancaster got it wrong - should have shown more trust in George. Might well have been the reliable and powerful hooker, England needed in the RWC. It's not hindsight, I said it before.

I know you said George didn't do well in training, training should play a factor but it shouldn't be the most important factor.

Hard to see an Italian pack staying competitive for the full 80, England will more than likely cruise and win by 15+, despite some glimmers of hope from Italy last week.

What England have to beware of is their own battles, certain players last week seemed to be playing for themselves, and trying too hard, for all of Billy V's carries he doesn't half neglect his small unit and pack duties sometimes.

The longer Italy are ahead, or within 5 points the tougher it'll be for England.

back to wanting pplayers be given a chance but only the ones you agree with beshocked!

What do you mean by Vunipola neglecting his duties?

Fanster wrote:Hard to see an Italian pack staying competitive for the full 80, England will more than likely cruise and win by 15+, despite some glimmers of hope from Italy last week.

What England have to beware of is their own battles, certain players last week seemed to be playing for themselves, and trying too hard, for all of Billy V's carries he doesn't half neglect his small unit and pack duties sometimes.

The longer Italy are ahead, or within 5 points the tougher it'll be for England.

Is it possible Billy was asked to conserve his energy for carrying the ball? Given how the rest of the pack was pretty much constantly hitting rucks, it doesn't seem unlikely

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:Hard to see an Italian pack staying competitive for the full 80, England will more than likely cruise and win by 15+, despite some glimmers of hope from Italy last week.

What England have to beware of is their own battles, certain players last week seemed to be playing for themselves, and trying too hard, for all of Billy V's carries he doesn't half neglect his small unit and pack duties sometimes.

The longer Italy are ahead, or within 5 points the tougher it'll be for England.

Is it possible Billy was asked to conserve his energy for carrying the ball? Given how the rest of the pack was pretty much constantly hitting rucks, it doesn't seem unlikely

If Beaumont's kid is on the bench they have another very good ball carrier to bring on and release BV

RubyGuby wrote:Goode just seems to be a waste of a card with Watson and Nowell both accomplished FB's. Foden or Yarde would offer more IMO

The more I think about it the more insane it is to have Goode on the bench.

With the world cup Lancaster backed himself into a corner by not knowing his best team and which players could slot in. The only players (from memory) he should have capped were Slade, George and Kvesic. George because of Hartley's ban, Slade for the last centre spot and Kvesic as an actual alternative to Robshaw. In all other positions we had players we knew would make the cut, and yes I include Burrell in the squad as quite frankly he plugged a gap, played more than one position and had played pretty well in his other 12 caps.

I agree it's foolish to have Goode on the bench too.

Got to learn from previous mistakes.

Lancaster and his coaches said that they didn't think watson was ready to play full back for England, maybe Jones thinks the same. Maybe no one else is trusted there.

With Daly available and in such good form it really beggars belief that Goode is being kept on the bench.

Especially when Joseph still isn't back too his best.

I also feel for Pennell not getting a look in as reserve full back. He offers the same ability to always beat the first man, ride tackles and command the high ball that Brown has. On top of this though I think he is better than Brown at joining the line and picking out a pass.

I wouldn't start him ahead of Brown but think he's definitely our second best FB.

Haven't seen much of Pennell this year, is he still playing as well as he was before relegation?

Incidentally, does anyone know if a Saxons squad was ever named? I know there are no games, but thought there would have been just for the ease of calling up players

I have had a good look round the RFU website and there is no sign of/link to the Saxons squad.  I did though think it was necessary for injury replacements to be called up from the Saxons.

Pennell is playing pretty well in a struggling Worcester team.  I think one of the things that goes against him is that Goode is seen as being able to cover a multitude of positions, which is a bonus for a bench player, whereas Pennell is seen as more of an out and out fullback.  I think if he had have been less loyal and gone to a 'bigger' club he might have got more opportunity.  Whether this is seen as lack of ambition and counts against him I don't know.  But I think you have to feel with Watson and Nowell clocking up the caps, that Pennell has had his chance (fairly or unfairly so).

Goode also plays for a high profile club in the euro comp which'll help

With Goode I'm reminded in a way of Tim Payne a few years back: None of us supporters could see why he was selected, but the coaches seemed to rate him. And to be fair, neither has let England down.

With Goode, he's rock solid, and apparently he makes the players around him play better. (Ben Kay on Rugby Tonight a few weeks back iirc)

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:Hard to see an Italian pack staying competitive for the full 80, England will more than likely cruise and win by 15+, despite some glimmers of hope from Italy last week.

What England have to beware of is their own battles, certain players last week seemed to be playing for themselves, and trying too hard, for all of Billy V's carries he doesn't half neglect his small unit and pack duties sometimes.

The longer Italy are ahead, or within 5 points the tougher it'll be for England.

Is it possible Billy was asked to conserve his energy for carrying the ball? Given how the rest of the pack was pretty much constantly hitting rucks, it doesn't seem unlikely

I agree with this, and this for me is the problem. I'm not saying he's a bad player, or that he didn't have a good game, if the rest of your pack is having to make up for the 8 offering little else by=ut a dynamic ball carrying threat. It's the reason I would hate to be an Italian second row, Parrisse running down the 15 metre, chipping, drop goaling, offloading out the back door doesn't help me pick and go, doesn't help hit the breakdowns, and leaves me outnumbered in the armwrestle.

Keiran Reid, Jamie Heaslip, Taluape Falatau, they all do everything, and lead from the front in every aspect, they don't require saving energy to carry ball.

Again not that i'm slating Billy, he's quality, he was just an example of the English packs lack of cohesiveness on Saturday. If they are lke that again Italy could be in the game.

Cowshot wrote:With Goode I'm reminded in a way of Tim Payne a few years back: None of us supporters could see why he was selected, but the coaches seemed to rate him. And to be fair, neither has let England down.

With Goode, he's rock solid, and apparently he makes the players around him play better. (Ben Kay on Rugby Tonight a few weeks back iirc)

The criticism Goode gets is well over the top. He's a limited bench option, but he's a fine fullback (every bit as good as Brown in my view) which is why the last two England coaches rate him and why he's first choice for the best side in England (and possibly Europe).

I think people are saying he's a limited bench option Dave you seem to agree with them. He's an accomplished FB but beyond that he has little to offer in any other position IMO particularly at this level

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:Hard to see an Italian pack staying competitive for the full 80, England will more than likely cruise and win by 15+, despite some glimmers of hope from Italy last week.

What England have to beware of is their own battles, certain players last week seemed to be playing for themselves, and trying too hard, for all of Billy V's carries he doesn't half neglect his small unit and pack duties sometimes.

The longer Italy are ahead, or within 5 points the tougher it'll be for England.

Is it possible Billy was asked to conserve his energy for carrying the ball? Given how the rest of the pack was pretty much constantly hitting rucks, it doesn't seem unlikely

I agree with this, and this for me is the problem. I'm not saying he's a bad player, or that he didn't have a good game, if the rest of your pack is having to make up for the 8 offering little else by=ut a dynamic ball carrying threat. It's the reason I would hate to be an Italian second row, Parrisse  running down the 15 metre, chipping, drop goaling, offloading out the back door doesn't help me pick and go, doesn't help hit the breakdowns, and leaves me outnumbered in the armwrestle.

Keiran Reid, Jamie Heaslip, Taluape Falatau, they all do everything, and lead from the front in every aspect, they don't require saving energy to carry ball.

Again not that i'm slating Billy, he's quality, he was just an example of the English packs lack of cohesiveness on Saturday. If they are lke that again Italy could be in the game.

Billy is excellent in the choke tackle and strong over the ball. Now his fitness has improved he is using his considerable weight in the rucks to his advantage by making himself near impossible to shift once set over the ball, rather than regularly losing balance and flopping over rucks as he once did.

I think the stats I've seen have him down as making 9 tackles on Saturday. For a guy whose biggest impact is expected to be in attack that isn't exactly poor!

A very bad 6N review article in the Independent last saturday was still asking if Billy had the stamina to last a game.

DaveM wrote:

Cowshot wrote:With Goode I'm reminded in a way of Tim Payne a few years back: None of us supporters could see why he was selected, but the coaches seemed to rate him. And to be fair, neither has let England down.

With Goode, he's rock solid, and apparently he makes the players around him play better. (Ben Kay on Rugby Tonight a few weeks back iirc)

The criticism Goode gets is well over the top. He's a limited bench option, but he's a fine fullback (every bit as good as Brown in my view) which is why the last two England coaches rate him and why he's first choice for the best side in England (and possibly Europe).

I hadn't thought of it like that but I do see your point. This season Brown has been nowhere near where he was. Can you see this season's Brown doing the penalty save of O'Driscoll's kick? I don't at present. Ach, I dunno. I look at Goode on the counter and he seems slow and not very interesting. More skilled and knowledgeable eyes than mine say different, if Lancaster AND Eddie J pick him...

So is England going to give Italy...a "good hiding" on Sunday....

Wow some unexpected calls

England team to face Italy

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 28 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 67 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 57 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 11 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 44 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 63 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 22 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 36 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 44 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 38 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 29 caps)
20 Maro Itoje (Saracens, uncapped)
21 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 1 cap)
22 Danny Care (Harlequins, 54 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 19 caps)

So:

Youngs, Mako, Lawes start, while Itoje replaces Devoto on the bench

LondonTiger wrote:So:

Youngs, Mako, Lawes start, while Itoje replaces Devoto on the bench

So the revolution has started. (maybe)

I guess Clifford could do a spell in the backs if the injury count is high

Cowshot wrote:With Goode I'm reminded in a way of Tim Payne a few years back: None of us supporters could see why he was selected, but the coaches seemed to rate him. And to be fair, neither has let England down.

With Goode, he's rock solid, and apparently he makes the players around him play better. (Ben Kay on Rugby Tonight a few weeks back iirc)

He certainly makes them all look quicker....

I really wonder if the 6/2 bench split is driven by what they think they need, or by cowardice (ie unwilling to drop a player from the squad who did nothing wrong, so drop one who did not get on the field).

Mind, excepting for injury, they were unlikely to use Devoto this week either.

LondonTiger wrote:England team to face Italy

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 28 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 67 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 57 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 11 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 44 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 63 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 22 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 36 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 44 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 38 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 29 caps)
20 Maro Itoje (Saracens, uncapped)
21 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 1 cap)
22 Danny Care (Harlequins, 54 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 19 caps)

Goode and Care as the only backs on the bench? What happens if we get a single injury in the backs? If Farrell's injured, who goes to inside centre? If any of the back three are injured, do we have Goode to fullback, Brown to wing? If Joseph gets injured, presumably we have Nowell to outside centre, Brown to wing, Goode to fullback?

Only one centre in the entire 23.

Perhaps Eddie Jones is planning of trying out Goode in the centres.

Seems odd to have Goode at the super sub when he wasn't used vs Scotland and wasn't used by Lancaster against Wales.

I agree Londontiger it does seem like Eddie Jones didn't want to whittle 4 down to 3 so has put his 4 locks in the 23. Perhaps it also suggests that Jones might well be willing to try Itoje at 6.

Leaves England light on backs but 10s and 15 are covered.

I think the worst scenario would be an injury to one of the wingers or Joseph.

Goode will cover inside centre and FB, any other changes (bar 9) will probably necessitate positional change as well.

I guess it comes down to whether you select a bench to cope with injury, or a bench to make an impact.

though as I posted just above, I have my doubts about the reason for the 6/2 bench.

lostinwales wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:So:

Youngs, Mako, Lawes start, while Itoje replaces Devoto on the bench

So the revolution has started. (maybe)

I guess Clifford could do a spell in the backs if the injury count is high

He's certainly got more of what you'd look for in a ball-carrying 12 than a fair proportion of the people who've filled that shirt since 2003...

LondonTiger wrote:Goode will cover inside centre and FB, any other changes (bar 9) will probably necessitate positional change as well.

I guess it comes down to whether you select a bench to cope with injury, or a bench to make an impact.

though as I posted just above, I have my doubts about the reason for the 6/2 bench.

Shouldn't a bench should do both of those things? If Farrell gets injured, and Goode moves to IC, then surely if you were Italy, you'd be chucking runners down the 10/12 channel all day long.

The bench selection does rather suggest that Jones doesn't rate Italy.