6N Rugby - Italy v England

by Geordie Mon 08 Feb 2016, 9:50 am

First topic message reminder :

England team to face Italy - Sunday

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 28 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 67 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 57 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 11 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 44 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 63 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 22 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 36 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 44 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 38 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 29 caps)
20 Maro Itoje (Saracens, uncapped)
21 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 1 cap)
22 Danny Care (Harlequins, 54 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 19 caps)

by TightHEAD Fri 12 Feb 2016, 10:49 am

6/2 Hmmm.

In Eddie we trust.

by bluestonevedder Fri 12 Feb 2016, 10:59 am

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Goode will cover inside centre and FB, any other changes (bar 9) will probably necessitate positional change as well.

I guess it comes down to whether you select a bench to cope with injury, or a bench to make an impact.

though as I posted just above, I have my doubts about the reason for the 6/2 bench.

Shouldn't a bench should do both of those things? If Farrell gets injured, and Goode moves to IC, then surely if you were Italy, you'd be chucking runners down the 10/12 channel all day long.

The bench selection does rather suggest that Jones doesn't rate Italy.

Goode would not go to 12.

If Farrell got injured, Joseph would move to 12, Nowell to 13, Brown to the wing, and Goode to 15.

EJ isn't as stupid as a lot of people are making him out to be. Yes, 6-2 is odd, but if we can't have confidence in Eddie, then there's no hope.

by beshocked Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:06 am

jbeadlesbigbrighthand it's still a 6/2 split - 6 forwards showing that England's emphasis will be on keeping it tight and direct.

I think it's giving the Italian forwards perhaps the respect they deserve but underestimating the backs.

It's not subtle but it's going to very physical from England.

bluestonevedder I think we all know that England should still be capable of beating of Italy but it doesn't start to fix the long term issues at backrow balance and centre balance.
Still unsure what his plans are.

Maybe Eddie Jones wants to try out a combination like this at 4/5/6/7/8.

Kruis/Launchbury/Itoje/Clifford/Vunipola later on if all players stay fit.

by Barney McGrew did it Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:12 am

I'm underwhelmed. I had a nightmare last night that Stewie was still in charge. Then I woke up - at least I think I did.

Still, the bench looks 'interesting' - here's hoping that Clifford gets more than 2 minutes.

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:33 am

Well I guess in the backs he will use:

Farrell covers all midfield.
Nowell can aswell
Goode to cover 10 - 15

I think Eddie wants to keep it tight as he did V Scotland, but in the second half really look at a few of the others.

It wont be an open frantic game so he's sacrificed a few backs.

The 6n is important, but these first few games for Eddie Jones is about information gathering and seeing what he was to play with....as well as winning!

by Hoonercat Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:35 am

beshocked wrote:jbeadlesbigbrighthand it's still a 6/2 split - 6 forwards showing that England's emphasis will be on keeping it tight and direct.
Eddie Jones wants to try out a combination like this at 4/5/6/7/8.

Kruis/Launchbury/Itoje/Clifford/Vunipola later on if all players stay fit.

Can't help but feel that the more experienced players are as much on trial in this game as the 'young 'uns', Robshaw in particular who is probably only hanging on to his place due to his experience. Would love to see that combination if England have a comfortable lead, though in all honesty I can't see them getting a comfortable lead until fresh legs come on. Italy's pack are no pushovers and EJ seems to think they will tire before he brings on the more mobile Itoje and Clifford.

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:39 am

Kruis/Launchbury/Itoje/Clifford/Vunipola later on if all players stay fit.

4 Kruis
5 Launchbury
6 Itoje
7 Clifford
8 Vunipola

Yeah that would be very interesting...and it could very well happen!!

Go further we could finish the game:

1 Marler / Mako
2 George
3 Hill
4 Kruis
5 Launchbury
6 Itoje
7 Clifford
8 Vunipola

by bluestonevedder Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:39 am

beshocked wrote:jbeadlesbigbrighthand it's still a 6/2 split - 6 forwards showing that England's emphasis will be on keeping it tight and direct.

I think it's giving the Italian forwards perhaps the respect they deserve but underestimating the backs.

It's not subtle but it's going to very physical from England.

bluestonevedder I think we all know that England should still be capable of beating of Italy but it doesn't start to fix the long term issues at backrow balance and centre balance.
Still unsure what his plans are.

Maybe Eddie Jones wants to try out a combination like this at 4/5/6/7/8.

Kruis/Launchbury/Itoje/Clifford/Vunipola later on if all players stay fit.

Completely agree. The backrow is still underwhelming. I would have loved to see Kvesic in there. Haskell needs to maintain his form from last week. Too often he just declines throughout tournaments. Robshaw needs to find a way of stamping his authority onto a game now that he's not captain.

I just have a lot more confidence in EJ. It seemed Lancaster picked teams based on his own obstinacy, rather than merit. Yes, EJ has made some similar choices that to us might not look like much has changed, but I feel he has a plan.

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:41 am

Kvesic is apparently not a consideration until he becomes a genuine ball carrier.

by Hoonercat Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:43 am

Has the Italian team been named yet?

by RubyGuby Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:43 am

Kvesic is very similar to Josh Navidi for the Blues - cracking open side but lacking the power to really influence a game - With 2 monsters at 6 and 8 it might be possible but otherwise it remains a risk. thumbsup

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:46 am

Thing with Itoje is that he is quick for a second row, but only average pace for a back row. (I remember last season seeing Lee Dickson having to turn and giving Maro a 10 yd start yet still catching him, and Dickson makes Goode look like Usain Bolt!!). He would bring more power though.

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:49 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Goode will cover inside centre and FB, any other changes (bar 9) will probably necessitate positional change as well.

I guess it comes down to whether you select a bench to cope with injury, or a bench to make an impact.

though as I posted just above, I have my doubts about the reason for the 6/2 bench.

Shouldn't a bench should do both of those things? If Farrell gets injured, and Goode moves to IC, then surely if you were Italy, you'd be chucking runners down the 10/12 channel all day long.

The bench selection does rather suggest that Jones doesn't rate Italy.

Goode would not go to 12.

If Farrell got injured, Joseph would move to 12, Nowell to 13, Brown to the wing, and Goode to 15.

EJ isn't as stupid as a lot of people are making him out to be. Yes, 6-2 is odd, but if we can't have confidence in Eddie, then there's no hope.

Fair enough. I do think it looks a Lancaster-esque bench (at least in the backs). That said, better to be doing things like this in the 6 nations vs Italy than Wales or Australia in the World Cup. And at least it's being done to give young players a chance.

by beshocked Fri 12 Feb 2016, 11:57 am

Londontiger I know you seem to focus on the pace of Itoje but it hasn't stopped him making almost as many turnovers as Ksevic this season. I think in the case of a forward it is preferable to have speed of thought instead of speed of foot.

Not all forwards need to have Tom Croft speed. Sure it's great if they do but not that crucial.

As long as a player isn't too slow to do the basics then I don't have an issue.

Dickson might not be lightning fast but a 9 should still be expected to be faster than a lock/6.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

I talk about pace because Jones said he wanted a quicker pack.

Itoje improves the speed of the pack if he plays in the second row (though he is slower than Lawes), but not in the back row. Itoje has the potential to become a great international second rower, just needs to improve the basics - mainly lineout. I cannot see him being a great back rower unless he is at least as quick as others in hi sposition. right now he is not.

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:03 pm

Horses for courses...I don't think Itojes pace will be an issue against the Italians.

I don't think any of them are lightning quick.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:04 pm

Oh and why would you expect a 9 to catch a back rower? the likes of Simpson, Care and Youngs yes - but the Dickson boys, Wiggy, Stringer, Laidlaw?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:05 pm

I suppose the threat from Italy is through the forwards so having a trio like Launchbury, Clifford and Itoje to come on for the last 20 is pretty handy. Goode also covers 10 and 15 and, as we know from previously experience, Mike Brown makes a Savea-like left winger....

Hopefully England don't suffer any injuries to the centres/wingers!

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:10 pm

I think its a clever selection to suit the opposition and it continues Jones gathering information on players.

Against Italy you don't have to play swaggering rugby...just keep it tight. This game will allow him to test some forwards out and just keep it solid in the backs.

Nowell, Farrell, Goode etc can cover positions.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:11 pm

If we are very unlucky, and three backs go down, I wonder which of those forwards would fill in as an emergency?

Beaumont used to play fly half or centre at school but, by his own admission, was very average. I suppose it comes down to whether you put the fastest man back there - perhaps Clifford - or a more experienced hand like Hartley or Robshaw.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:14 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:If we are very unlucky, and three backs go down, I wonder which of those forwards would fill in as an emergency?

Beaumont used to play fly half or centre at school but, by his own admission, was very average. I suppose it comes down to whether you put the fastest man back there - perhaps Clifford - or a more experienced hand like Hartley or Robshaw.

Move Billy V to 12. You know it makes sense.

by BamBam Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:16 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If we are very unlucky, and three backs go down, I wonder which of those forwards would fill in as an emergency?

Beaumont used to play fly half or centre at school but, by his own admission, was very average. I suppose it comes down to whether you put the fastest man back there - perhaps Clifford - or a more experienced hand like Hartley or Robshaw.

Move Billy V to 12. You know it makes sense.

He'd be a better scrum half than Mike Philipps

by lostinwales Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:16 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If we are very unlucky, and three backs go down, I wonder which of those forwards would fill in as an emergency?

Beaumont used to play fly half or centre at school but, by his own admission, was very average. I suppose it comes down to whether you put the fastest man back there - perhaps Clifford - or a more experienced hand like Hartley or Robshaw.

Move Billy V to 12. You know it makes sense.

Makes you wonder why the French didn't try Basteraud at 8

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:22 pm

Jamie George in the centre. We have all seen what he looks like when running - the Italians would be terrified and run back to momma

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:25 pm

Clifford can cover in an emergency.
Robshaw / Haskell / Billy - 12

Im sure we'll be ok. Im pretty sure this isn't the squad he would select for Ireland, Wales or France....because Italy aren't as good as Ireland or Wales etc.

Give them respect...which he has done naming a very grinding solid pack etc to start...but once they're beat up and tired...start testing a few kids.

Makes total sense to me.

by offload Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:35 pm

If Jones is the messiah England needs, he's going about things in an interesting way. Only one recognised centre in the 23 and a 6/2 split. If Farrell is hurt he will have to rearrange his entire backline.

In only his second game, Eddie is so smart no one has a clue what he's up to and fans are already resorting to blind faith.

by Poorfour Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:35 pm

Clifford played centre (presumably 12) for a fair bit of his formative years, though had clearly settled in the back row by the time he hit U20s.

by Poorfour Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:36 pm

offload wrote:If Jones is the messiah England needs, he's going about things in an interesting way. Only one recognised centre in the 23 and a 6/2 split. If Farrell is hurt he will have to rearrange his entire backline.

In only his second game, Eddie is so smart no one has a clue what he's up to and fans are already resorting to blind faith.

Only the true messiah would move in mysterious ways!

by offload Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:37 pm

Poorfour wrote:Clifford played centre (presumably 12) for a fair bit of his formative years, though had clearly settled in the back row by the time he hit U20s.

Ah, well that's alright then. I was worried for a minute that everyone would end up out of position. Rolling Eyes

by TJ Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:38 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I talk about pace because Jones said he wanted a quicker pack.

Itoje improves the speed of the pack if he plays in the second row (though he is slower than Lawes), but not in the back row. Itoje has the potential to become a great international second rower, just needs to improve the basics - mainly lineout. I cannot see him being a great back rower unless he is at least as quick as others in hi sposition. right now he is not.

Scotland back row was much quicker than Englands - but England won the back row battle thru power

by offload Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:
offload wrote:If Jones is the messiah England needs, he's going about things in an interesting way. Only one recognised centre in the 23 and a 6/2 split. If Farrell is hurt he will have to rearrange his entire backline.

In only his second game, Eddie is so smart no one has a clue what he's up to and fans are already resorting to blind faith.

Only the true messiah would move in mysterious ways!

Perhaps I'm mixing up Test Rugby and Songs of Praise?

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:49 pm

I think we will beat Italy by a decent margin on Sunday.

by bluestonevedder Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we will beat Italy by a decent margin on Sunday.

Me too. I think we'll see a more expansive game too.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:02 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we will beat Italy by a decent margin on Sunday.

Me too. I think we'll see a more expansive game too.

Me three. Just feel people are reading far too much into Italy's narrow defeat.

PS GF, we need you to come to the AP thread and at least comment on Falcons expected victory tonight.

by Geordie Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:03 pm

Not initially. I think we'll keep it solid, play the territory, set piece game...and just grind their pack down.

Once they get tired however, we'll make a few changes (George, Itoje, Clifford etc) and then we might see a bit more expansive open play.

by bluestonevedder Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:08 pm

Definitely. It's always the way with Italy.

I expect Clifford and Itoje to have good cameos from the bench, especially against tired Italian legs.

Also looking forward to seeing how Marler looks from the bench. It will be interesting to see whether his carrying improves. I don't think he's been on the bench a lot before?

by RubyGuby Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:14 pm

Why are Italy going to get "tired" - they were in the ascendency in the last 10 in Paris - Is this an assumption or just an expectation that they will be chasing and tackling for the first 50 mins thumbsup

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:16 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:It will be interesting to see whether his carrying improves. I don't think he's been on the bench a lot before?

35 starts in 38 caps.

by bluestonevedder Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:16 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Why are Italy going to get "tired" - they were in the ascendency in the last 10 in Paris - Is this an assumption or just an expectation that they will be chasing and tackling for the first 50 mins

Not at all, but France were more tireder thumbsup

Italy have a big pack, with a number of older guys. I think England are fitter, that's all.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:17 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Why are Italy going to get "tired" - they were in the ascendency in the last 10 in Paris - Is this an assumption or just an expectation that they will be chasing and tackling for the first 50 mins

all teams tire towards the end, who copes with that best gains the ascendancy. thumbsdown

by RubyGuby Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:18 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:Why are Italy going to get "tired" - they were in the ascendency in the last 10 in Paris - Is this an assumption or just an expectation that they will be chasing and tackling for the first 50 mins

Not at all, but France were more tireder

Italy have a big pack, with a number of older guys. I think England are fitter, that's all.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:29 pm

Eddie on Maro: "He's got a good head on his shoulders. He's like a Vauxhall Viva & we want to turn him into a BMW."

thumbsdown

by lostinwales Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:35 pm

offload wrote:If Jones is the messiah England needs, he's going about things in an interesting way. Only one recognised centre in the 23 and a 6/2 split. If Farrell is hurt he will have to rearrange his entire backline.

In only his second game, Eddie is so smart no one has a clue what he's up to and fans are already resorting to blind faith.

I think there is a fair amount of head scratching but 'as long as he keeps winning....' The main sadness is that so far the joyful and attacking rugby of last 6N has not been evident but it is very early days.

It is going to be hard to assess how well he's going for a while, not least until we start seeing something that is recognisably EJ rather than bomber. The bulk of the selections were always likely to be much the same as what Lancaster would have been picking, but the fringe selections are more 'interesting' than exciting.

by Hoonercat Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:48 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Why are Italy going to get "tired" - they were in the ascendency in the last 10 in Paris - Is this an assumption or just an expectation that they will be chasing and tackling for the first 50 mins

That's my worry, they usually look done for towards the end of the game but didn't last week. Plus they do have a bench of subs as well as us Smile

Anyone know the Italian team yet? Be interesting to see how the bench compares.

by lostinwales Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:49 pm

Italy have made one change to its starting XV that played against France last weekend, with Luke McLean coming it to the starting line-up to face England.

Italy XV to face England: McLean, Sarto, Campagnaro, Garcia, Bellini, Canna, Gori; Lovotti, Gega, Cittadini, Biagi, Fuser, Minto, Zanni, Parisse

Replacements: Giazzon, Zanusso, Castrogiovanni, Bernabo, Steyn, Palazzani, Padovani, Pratichetti

by lostinwales Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:49 pm

copy and paste is the best!

by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:56 pm

Back to the question of whether Itojes a 6 then.

by BamBam Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:56 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie on Maro: "He's got a good head on his shoulders. He's like a Vauxhall Viva & we want to turn him into a BMW."

Will he be indicating to his team mates which direction he's heading in once he turns into a BMW Whistle

by lostinwales Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:08 pm

BamBam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Eddie on Maro: "He's got a good head on his shoulders. He's like a Vauxhall Viva & we want to turn him into a BMW."

Will he be indicating to his team mates which direction he's heading in once he turns into a BMW

Once read a great (silly) article along the lines of BMW owner returns car to dealer complaining about strange flashing lights on side of car...

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 12 Feb 2016, 5:46 pm

beshocked wrote:lostinwales I just don't think Easter fared well comparatively to other no 8s for other countries in terms of ability. Not just the English ones. I agree it wasn't Lancaster's fault Morgan was crocked but you know you're in trouble when your 3rd choice is a 37 year old. He could have given Ewers some game time in the RWC warm ups.

Bambam Brown improved his performances by working with Margot Wells. That shows that it's possible for a player to change themselves.

Yappysnap not sure one performance is enough to make someone number 1 but game time is what I want to see for the youngsters.

Ewers as well, how many players are we going to give game time in the warm ups, why not play the Saxons and be done with it.

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