Gareth Davies try was correct decision

by PotNoodleMiner Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:18 am

Hi just something thats been annoying me a little since the game yesterday was how many people thought davies was offside, they have either not taken the time look at the replay close enough or dont understand the offside law

If you go to bbc iplayer and watch the 6 nations forum, fast forward to 12.50 and you can see initially davies is in an offside position but then when roberts plays the ball back, roberts then moves forward and davies moves slightly back into an onside position as roberts is infront of him before he plays the ball

by No 7&1/2 Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:42 am

Roberts knocked on for a start and Davies was ahead.

by jimbopip Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:46 am

Without getting all "Australia quarter final" about this; Roberts knocked it on, then the Scotland player knocks it back to him then he plays it to Davies. Surely scrum to Scotland?

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:53 am

He was offside.

by PotNoodleMiner Sun 14 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

It was deemed to have gone back off roberts, before davies touches the ball roberts moves back infront of davies playing him onside

by No 7&1/2 Sun 14 Feb 2016, 12:03 pm

Deemed to yes but incorrect in my view.

by jimbopip Sun 14 Feb 2016, 12:22 pm

And before we get too bitter and twisted about this may I , as a Scot, say how impressed I was with the Welsh players after the game being very gracious and complementary about the opposition. Hug

by Shifty Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:05 pm

It was 6 minutes into the game, either way Scotland had plenty of time to correct that, Scotland lost simply because they don't score points when they dominate teams.
Wales played rugby for 6 minutes at the start of the game, and maybe 8 minutes in the second half and Scotland played all the other rugby.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:11 pm

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Hi just something thats been annoying me a little since the game yesterday was how many people thought davies was offside, they have either not taken the time look at the replay close enough or dont understand the offside law

If you go to bbc iplayer and watch the 6 nations forum, fast forward to 12.50 and you can see initially davies is in an offside position but then when roberts plays the ball back, roberts then moves forward and davies moves slightly back into an onside position as roberts is infront of him before he plays the ball

With all due respect I'd suggest you review the laws ... he moved towards the ball when he was in an offside position i.e. before he had been run on-side - that is a penalty offence. He was only in position to receive the ball as he'd moved forwards illegally.

Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:15 pm

Shifty wrote:It was 6 minutes into the game, either way Scotland had plenty of time to correct that, Scotland lost simply because they don't score points when they dominate teams.
Wales played rugby for 6 minutes at the start of the game, and maybe 8 minutes in the second half and Scotland played all the other rugby.

Absolutely true.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:21 pm

The second part of the first sentence is correct - but I'm not sure I agree that a team should be expected to score extra points to make up for officiating errors - it's not like they could just click their fingers and magic up an extra try.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

Players make more mistakes and we may as well stop playing the game if we' re waiting for anyone to get 100% of decisions correct. Be less to talk about as well.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:52 pm

I'm not expecting all decisions to be correct (nice as that would be), I'm just suggesting it's a bit harsh to blame a team for not scoring enough points to make up for officiating errors - if two teams are pretty evenly matched and one gets a bad call against them, saying it's their fault for not being better just seems a bit unfair to me (and yes I know life isn't fair too Smile

)

by Guest Sun 14 Feb 2016, 2:11 pm

Heaf is absolutely correct. https://streamable.com/9kpx

He clearly runs forwards and towards the ball well before he was played onside (if that even happened). Laws can be found here.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 2:20 pm

by Seagultaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 3:25 pm

The problem is that the Laws of Rugby are too complicated, if you wanted to you could blow up for an offence every 30 seconds in most games. Gareth Davies was running across field and slightly forward so technically offside. I thought he had been played onside by the Scottish player touching the ball, but as I said the Laws are so complex they are almost impossible to administer.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 3:32 pm

English clutching at straws again, these apparent offsides go unnoticed in every game, except when Wales do it which is strange. Davies' run clearly didn't affect play and it was a good try, he beat 3 or more defenders. If the tables were turned we would be hearing how it didn't affect the result and that Wales should have lost by 20.

by Guest Sun 14 Feb 2016, 3:51 pm

Except on this issue the rules aren't too complicated at all, it's perfectly clear from the page I linked. Even if he stood still he would've been offside as the onus is on him to immediately retreat (then, and only then can he be played onside by his team). Scottish player touching the ball is also irrelevant as you cannot be played onside by the opposing team under the 10m rule.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that he didn't affect play as (again pointed out by Heaf above) he wouldn't have been in position to pick up the spilled ball had he not ran towards it while offside.

I have not seen a single non-Welsh poster on any board or site that thinks this try should have stood after seeing the replay and being reminded of the rules.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:00 pm

Get over your anti-Wales paranoia - I'm just telling you what the laws say and why if the laws had been correctly followed the try should have been disallowed.

I can't follow your logic that a player getting into a position to score a try illegally didn't affect play - if he had waited to be run onside then he wouldn't have been in the position he was to catch the ball - therefore it did affect play. The team in the studio at half-time unanimously agreed, why can't you?

by Seagultaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:04 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Except on this issue the rules aren't too complicated at all, it's perfectly clear from the page I linked. Even if he stood still he would've been offside as the onus is on him to immediately retreat (then, and only then can he be played onside by his team). Scottish player touching the ball is also irrelevant as you cannot be played onside by the opposing team under the 10m rule.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that he didn't affect play as (again pointed out by Heaf above) he wouldn't have been in position to pick up the spilled ball had he not ran towards it while offside.

I have not seen a single non-Welsh poster on any board or site that thinks this try should have stood after seeing the replay and being reminded of the rules.

Good point but could he be played onside by Roberts who had run in front of him and played the ball?

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:English clutching at straws again, these apparent offsides go unnoticed in every game, except when Wales do it which is strange. Davies' run clearly didn't affect play and it was a good try, he beat 3 or more defenders. If the tables were turned we would be hearing how it didn't affect the result and that Wales should have lost by 20.

All I have to say on what was a good try. The English are a bit obsessed with the welsh. It's creepy.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:07 pm

So long as a player does not advance (and he is not within 10m of where the ball lands) he can be played onside by another player moving past him.

Whether any of that is applicable, I do not know.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:09 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Except on this issue the rules aren't too complicated at all, it's perfectly clear from the page I linked. Even if he stood still he would've been offside as the onus is on him to immediately retreat (then, and only then can he be played onside by his team). Scottish player touching the ball is also irrelevant as you cannot be played onside by the opposing team under the 10m rule.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that he didn't affect play as (again pointed out by Heaf above) he wouldn't have been in position to pick up the spilled ball had he not ran towards it while offside.

I have not seen a single non-Welsh poster on any board or site that thinks this try should have stood after seeing the replay and being reminded of the rules.

Good point but could he be played onside by Roberts who had run in front of him and played the ball?

It was too late by then - he'd already moved forwards and committed the offence from which he'd gained a positional advantage.

by Guest Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:09 pm

Didn't the decision go to the TMO? How could he get it wrong with the benefit of replays???!

Sack him!

by Exiledinborders Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:09 pm

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Hi just something thats been annoying me a little since the game yesterday was how many people thought davies was offside, they have either not taken the time look at the replay close enough or dont understand the offside law

If you go to bbc iplayer and watch the 6 nations forum, fast forward to 12.50 and you can see initially davies is in an offside position but then when roberts plays the ball back, roberts then moves forward and davies moves slightly back into an onside position as roberts is infront of him before he plays the ball

No. It makes no difference what Roberts did. Davies was initially in an offside position. As such he is required to make an effort to retire to an onside position. He did not. That in itself is a penalty against Wales. What happened a few seconds later with Roberts is irrelevant.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So long as a player does not advance (and he is not within 10m of where the ball lands) he can be played onside by another player moving past him.

Whether any of that is applicable, I do not know.

yes but he did advance before being run onside - that's where the offence came.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:11 pm

Griff wrote:Didn't the decision go to the TMO? How could he get it wrong with the benefit of replays???!

Sack him!

precisely - perhaps he was anti-Scottish Smile

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:15 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:English clutching at straws again, these apparent offsides go unnoticed in every game, except when Wales do it which is strange. Davies' run clearly didn't affect play and it was a good try, he beat 3 or more defenders. If the tables were turned we would be hearing how it didn't affect the result and that Wales should have lost by 20.

All I have to say on what was a good try. The English are a bit obsessed with the welsh. It's creepy.

Is this why you jump straight on the threads for the England games?

It was offside and the try shouldn't have stood, it's that simple, your apparent need for a persecution complex won't alter that.

by nobbled Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:23 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:English clutching at straws again, these apparent offsides go unnoticed in every game, except when Wales do it which is strange. Davies' run clearly didn't affect play and it was a good try, he beat 3 or more defenders. If the tables were turned we would be hearing how it didn't affect the result and that Wales should have lost by 20.

All I have to say on what was a good try. The English are a bit obsessed with the welsh. It's creepy.

Is this why you jump straight on the threads for the England games?

It was offside and the try shouldn't have stood, it's that simple, your apparent need for a persecution complex won't alter that.

He was off-side and if the Try had been a given I might worry about it. It wasn't - there was a lovely bit of play and Wales scored. As Mikey says you can probably find a technicality to prevent just about every Try. I feel for Scotland but it's an imperfect world and Shiite happens.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:25 pm

So the good finish makes it ok to award a try that shouldn't have been?

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:25 pm

God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

by PotNoodleMiner Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:27 pm

Law 11.2 (a)
Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

He was initially in an offside position but the fact roberts played the ball and moved ahead of him he was played back onside before he interfered with play

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:28 pm

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Law 11.2 (a)
Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

He was initially in an offside position but the fact roberts played the ball and moved ahead of him he was played back onside before he interfered with play

He was still offside as Roberts played it.

by Exiledinborders Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So long as a player does not advance (and he is not within 10m of where the ball lands) he can be played onside by another player moving past him.

Whether any of that is applicable, I do not know.

As he was within 10m of where the ball landed and he did advance I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

He was offside. Before we had TMOs I would not criticise a ref for allowing the try but now we have TMOs there is no excuse for such glaring errors. It is just amateurish.

Personally I would get rid of TMOs to speed the game up. The fact that they still manage to get so many decisions wrong just add strength to that argument. A fast wrong decision is better than a slow wrong decision.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:30 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

by Exiledinborders Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:32 pm

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Law 11.2 (a)
Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

He was initially in an offside position but the fact roberts played the ball and moved ahead of him he was played back onside before he interfered with play

No. It is true that Roberts could be said to have played him onside as you suggest but by not retiring when he was ahead of the kick he had already committed a penalty offence before Roberts touched the ball.

by Heaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:34 pm

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Law 11.2 (a)
Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

He was initially in an offside position but the fact roberts played the ball and moved ahead of him he was played back onside before he interfered with play

He moved towards the ball when in a offside position before being run onside - being put onside after you've already committed the offence doesn't cancel it out.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:34 pm

If you don't want people to complain about a controversial try, then starting a thread saying there is nothing to complain about is probably the wrong strategy.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:35 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

Except for you I guess who is always keen to talk me down when you disagree with something I type, so this a stupid thing to say. Shot yourself in the foot there didn't you?

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:36 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
PotNoodleMiner wrote:Law 11.2 (a)
Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

He was initially in an offside position but the fact roberts played the ball and moved ahead of him he was played back onside before he interfered with play

He was still offside as Roberts played it.

No he wasn't.

See what I did there? Smile

by nobbled Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I wish you wouldn't wade in with your anti-English rants. I am English. I am agreeing that the Try should stand.
Wind your neck in ffs.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:38 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

Except for you I guess who is always keen to talk me down when you disagree with something I type, so this a stupid thing to say. Shot yourself in the foot there didn't you?

Not really because you don't need to read your comments to know it will follow your usual anti English diatribe.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:40 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

Except for you I guess who is always keen to talk me down when you disagree with something I type, so this a stupid thing to say. Shot yourself in the foot there didn't you?

Not really because you don't need to read your comments to know it will follow your usual anti English diatribe.

Oh so you're still taking notice of my posts then. Could you please point out where I'm always anti-English? I doubt you'll find anything of the sort in my posting history.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:42 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

Except for you I guess who is always keen to talk me down when you disagree with something I type, so this a stupid thing to say. Shot yourself in the foot there didn't you?

Not really because you don't need to read your comments to know it will follow your usual anti English diatribe.

Oh so you're still taking notice of my posts then. Could you please point out where I'm always anti-English? I doubt you'll find anything of the sort in my posting history.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:48 pm

Hammer, that's a fair and accurate comment aimed at English posters on here. What is anti-English about it? To be anti-English I would have to wake up every morning with a hatred for England in my heart, right? I lived in England for a few years and still have many friends there. To call someone who points out the blatantly obvious anti-English is just childish and unnecessary.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:50 pm

You want it to be blatantly obvious when it isn't, you'll look for any reason to bring apparent Anti Welsh sentiment into every argument and you only do it towards the English. Let's not try and make out we're fools on here, you know exactly what you're doing.

by Guest Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:51 pm

Wow this thread really blew up. Anyway the rules are perfectly clear..

Just a couple of highlights:

(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres.
(a)
The offside player must retire behind the imaginary 10-metre line across the field, otherwise the player is liable to be penalised.
(b)
While retiring, the player can be put onside before moving behind the imaginary 10-metre line by any of the three actions of the player’s team listed above in 11.2. However, the player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team.

By not immediately retreating behind the 10m line he should've been pinged. Roberts running ahead of him would only have played him onside if it happened while he was in the act of retiring which is obviously not the case. Even if he was stood still it should've been a penalty, the fact that he ran forward and towards the ball just made it a shocking decision.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:55 pm

What so some of the English didn't wade in to the U20s thread that I mentioned? They didn't blame the ref for the world cup loss? Go back and read it. If Wales were on the receiving end of this decision yesterday you'd all be saying how it isn't an issue like we've seen on numerous occasions before - it's boring.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:59 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:God you English are so boring. Wales U20 played Ireland last week, and the Irish were awarded a try that was clearly held up. Not a pip squeak from the English on that one, yet when an Irish player got carded English posters waded in commenting how much we benefitted from it.
Even after we swept you aside in the world cup you started blaming the ref, get some humility and you might start to enjoy rugby once again. Funnily enough Gareth Davies also scored a good legitimate try in that game!

I don't think anyone actually takes any notice of your crap so don't see why you even bother typing it out.

This thread has gone toxic

by Seagultaf Sun 14 Feb 2016, 5:01 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Wow this thread really blew up. Anyway the rules are perfectly clear..

Just a couple of highlights:

(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres.
(a)
The offside player must retire behind the imaginary 10-metre line across the field, otherwise the player is liable to be penalised.
(b)
While retiring, the player can be put onside before moving behind the imaginary 10-metre line by any of the three actions of the player’s team listed above in 11.2. However, the player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team.
By not immediately retreating behind the 10m line he should've been pinged. Roberts running ahead of him would only have played him onside if it happened while he was in the act of retiring which is obviously not the case. Even if he was stood still it should've been a penalty, the fact that he ran forward and towards the ball just made it a shocking decision.

I think you have just demonstrated how complex the Laws are, after a dozen slow motion replays and forensic examination if the Laws I think that Davies was probably offside, well maybe anyway but I Would hardly call it a shocking decision............I suspect a few Scots might though?

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