Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider

by bsando Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

ITALY VS SCOTLAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick Off: 2:25pm (GMT)
Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV

Italy snatched a late 22-19 victory over Scotland in last season's corresponding fixture in Edinburgh.

Italy and Scotland have contested a total of 25 rugby test matches since their first meeting in 1996. Italy have won 8 of those matches, whilst Scotland have won 17.

Scotland are on a 9 game losing streak in the 6 Nations.

Teams

Italy
Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 P01m6211

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 P01m6211

Starting XV
1. Andrea Lovotti
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
3 Lorenzo Cittadini
4 Marco Fuser
5 Joshua Furno
6 Francesco Minto
7 Alessandro Zanni
8 Sergio Parisse
9 Edoardo Gori
10 Kelly Haimona
11 Mattia Bellini
12 Gonzalo Garcia
13 Michele Campagnaro
14 Leonardo Sarto
15 David Odiete

Replacements

16 Davide Giazzon, 17 Matteo Zanusso,18 Martin Castrogiovanni,19 Valerio Bernabo, 20 Andries Van Schalkwyk, 21 Guglielmo Palazzani, 22 Edoardo Padovani, 23 Andrea Pratichetti.

Scotland
Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 Chef-g10

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 Chef-g10

Starting XV
1. Alasdair Dickinson
2. Ross Ford
3. Willem Nel
4. Richie Gray
5. Johnny Gray
6. John Barclay
7. John Hardie
8. David Denton
9. Greig Laidlaw
10. Finn Russell
11. Tim Visser
12. Duncan Taylor
13. Mark Bennett
14. Tommy Seymour
15. Stuart Hogg

Replacements

16.Stuart MacInally 17. Rory Sutherland 18. Moray Low 19. Tim Swinson 20. Ryan Wilson 21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne 22. Peter Horne 23. Sean Lamont

by funnyExiledScot Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:59 pm

MacKnocked-on wrote:Strauss is captaining Glasgow tomorrow night so unfortunately doesn't look like last week's game has persuaded Cotter. Weir playing for Glasgow as well.
Alarmingly Wilson isn't in the Glasgow squad, surely he can't be in Saturday's squad?!!

I'm surprised by that. I suspect it means that the back row will be unchanged.

by **RDW** Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:06 pm

So we're looking at a back row mix of

Barclay
Hardie
Denton
Wilson
Watson

With one missing out.

If Wilson is picked out of that lot I'll lose a lot of confidence in VC's abilities!

A mistake leaving Struass out for this one IMO.

Good to see Fraser Brown and Dunbar back for Glasgow. Reid and Fagerson on the bench so looks like it will be Sutherland and Low.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:20 pm

I'd imagine Horne/Scott in for Lamont on the bench?

After that try-saving tackle alone - Taylor doesn't deserve to be dropped. I really think once he's fully settled in the centres he could be one of our best.

Like all the above, praying it's not Batman on the bench or... God forbid... in the backrow. That the kind of decision that could only be made by our glorious director of rugby, with a cheeky grin and a glint in his eye. Maybe we're planning to castrate Parrise?

by funnyExiledScot Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:20 pm

The retention of Wilson ahead of Strauss really bothers me. It's a bad decision, plain and simple. Hopefully we'll see the following:

6.Barclay
7.Hardie
8.Denton

20.Watson

by Hazel Sapling Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:20 pm

Watson should be bench option out of that crew. He will be a nightmare for a tired Italy. Wilson would inspire them.

Surprised that Strauss has not done enough. 1 good game though is not form. Hoping for a reaction against Newport. Unfortunately Swinson is not in the Glasgow 23 so that could be a sign he will get picked on the bench still. Low makes sense and Sutherland vs Reid is a 50/50 call that I don't mind.

Jackson, Horne, Scott, Lamont are competing for the 2 bench spots. Jackson and probably Scott are my preferred. Unless big changes mean resting Hogg (who has played a lot of rugby this season and is carrying a knock) and Seymour.

by **RDW** Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:23 pm

Swinson over Toolis is almost as bad as Wilson over anyone IMO.

Almost...

by cakeordeath Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Swinson over Toolis is almost as bad as Wilson over anyone IMO.

Almost...

I can almost let he decision to drop Strauss go. However I can't see why you would have Swinson over either of the Toolis brothers. In fact you know what, I can't let the Strauss thing go.

by cakeordeath Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:53 pm

It appears the only way to get dropped from matchday squad is to punch the Princess Royal out during the anthems.

by **BigGee** Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:05 am

A few slighty odd decesions, of which Strauss would be the stand out. If he keeps up his form then surely his time will come again though.

Horne played well last week, as did Swinson, which may well have rescued his place on the bench, though personally I would be happy enough with Toolis.

Moray Low played well enough last week for Exeter, so that is probably a decent call. You can't rely on Nel being able to do a whole 80 mins at international level and Sutherland has long deserved his chance.

In the backs surely Visser comes in for Lamont, who may or may not bench. I don't see any other changes in the starting line up for the backs, only on the bench with Scott, Horne, Jacko all worth a shout. I guess Taylor could move out to the wing during the game if necessery and I imagine that Jocko or Horne could cover 15 and Hoggy could play there as well at a pinch.

Back row is very intrguing with Wilson now in the mix over Strauss, much to everyone's surprise. If he is picked and we lose, then there will be a riot. Watson off the bench for me though, against a tiring side, he could cause havoc!

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:54 am

Good article from Tom English, as always

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493

He has summarised the 9 games we have lost in a row - looking at the 7 prior this tournament, which ones do people think are the worst?

BBC Tom English wrote:Scotland 17-19 France - When your opponents' lineout is in complete disarray - France lost eight of their 14 throws - you take advantage. When you're ahead with 90 seconds left, you see it out. You don't lose your head under pressure, give away a penalty and get beaten in a game you ought to have won.

Wales 51-3 Scotland - You don't pick up needless yellow cards. Or in this case, an early red card that ended any chance of a victory.

France 15-8 Scotland - You take your points, part I. If you miss a straightforward drop-goal, as Finn Russell did, you could suffer. If you miss a makeable conversion, as Laidlaw did, you pile the pressure on yourself. When you pick up another yellow card, for Johnnie Beattie, you invite trouble. When you don't score in the entire second half, you don't deserve to win.

Scotland 23-26 Wales - You take your points, part II. You make your possession pay. So many visits to the Welsh 22 and not enough to show for it. You keep the scoreboard ticking. You plant the seed of doubt.

Scotland 19-22 Italy - When you're winning with 10 minutes to go, you don't lose your mind, as Scotland did. They mentally imploded all over the park. They conceded penalty after penalty. Botched a lineout. Missed a critical kick to touch. Picked up two yellow cards. And got suckered, again, by Italy's lineout maul. The lack of leadership in these moments was gobsmacking.

England 25-13 Scotland - You take your points, part III. Scotland didn't score in the second half, again.

Scotland 10-40 Ireland - You take your points, part IV. No points in the second half once more. Not enough aggression either. Maybe it still wouldn't have been enough against an Irish team on a points-scoring mission, but Scotland lost the physical battle resoundingly and almost embarrassingly

To me the ones in bold are the worst, because we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. The French one was particularly bad because we actually played incredibly well that game until Weir threw that pass.

The least said about the Wales one the better or else civil war will break out on here again.

As for the Italy one - picard

Can you imagine how differently we would view our recent 6N's if we had won those games?

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:00 am

Tom English is by a distance the best journalist reporting on Scottish rugby. I think he actually watches the games, which sets him apart from the rest,

Just watched the highlights of our last 6 Nations victory against Italy. Alex Dunbar was awesome that day.

Anyway, to answer your question, the drubbing at the end of last season was probably the most embarrassing. To be thumped by a 30 point margin at home by any side other than the All Blacks on fire is absolutely not acceptable. We lost virtually every collision in that contest. 2nd worst would be the 17-19 defeat to France: a textbook display of how to lose a rugby match from a winning position.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:06 am

BigGee wrote:Back row is very intrguing with Wilson now in the mix over Strauss, much to everyone's surprise. If he is picked and we lose, then there will be a riot. Watson off the bench for me though, against a tiring side, he could cause havoc!

Absolutely, this place will be like the suburbs of Paris circa 2005 if that happens! Like everyone I'm utterly baffled by the decision to keep Wilson and release Strauss, but it won't bother me in the slightest if Watson gets named on the bench. I'd be over the moon with that, 20 minutes at the end against an Italian side that has lost its shape and he could cause some real problems

by Majestic83 Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:55 am

What does Ryan Wilson hold over Vern Cotter??

Distinctly average player, poor discipline time and time again yet he still manages to sneak his way into the Scotland team. There are numerous better back rowers than him, even some playing in the Scottish premiership!

by sensisball Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:17 am

Maj

Unfortunately all coaches, even the good ones, appear to have blind spots for one or two players.
In big Vern's case it appears to be Ryan Wilson and possibly a. n. other. he can be a good club forward ( when he is appropriately dressed) but horribly underpowered at international level. He was thrown around like the proverbial rag doll in the world cup and one thing that the Italians have is a direct physicality. If you cant stop their ball carriers, and Batman isn't up to the job, then you are in big trouble. if he comes off the bench I could see him being a vital factor in yet another Italian win.

by MacKnocked-on Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:28 am

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I think Wilson and Swinson must be the lucky recipients of some misread player analysis. I've read Cotter going on about how Wilson is the 'fastest forward in the squad' etc etc whilst ignoring the evidence of his own eyes (that supposed speed doesn't achieve anything during a rugby match),evidence far less qualified observers (all of us on here) can see quite clearly.
I don't really follow French club rugby much but it would be interesting to know if there was a player at Clermont who Cotter kept picking that the fans didn't rate?

by **NeilyBroon** Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:50 am

cakeordeath wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Swinson over Toolis is almost as bad as Wilson over anyone IMO.

Almost...

I can almost let he decision to drop Strauss go. However I can't see why you would have Swinson over either of the Toolis brothers. In fact you know what, I can't let the Strauss thing go.

Calm, calm, Ben Toolis is in the current squad according to the latest from the Scottish rugby website... there's a glint of hope yet. Surely Vern's noticed that as soon as our subs are on the quality dip is enormous...

by sensisball Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:16 am

towards the end of his reign at Clermont he kept picking the Welsh full back, Lee Byrne, even though he had lost a yard of pace and kept getting stopped fairly easily by defences. His alternative would have been jean marcel Buttin, who went on to get a couple of French caps. He was a young player(still only 24)who was good under a high ball but has a deceptive turn of pace. looks like he is jogging but is actually really travelling. He is a beautifully balanced runner who usually beats the first man and because of his size ( 6 ft 4 and 15 stone plus) he is very strong in contact and crucially always looking to keep the ball alive.
I could never for the life of me, other than loyalty, think why big Vern kept picking the welsh man over Buttin.

Buttin has moved on to Bordeaux and looks like he is really enjoying playing an expansive game plan with several other exciting backs: Serin (scrum half on the fringe of french squad) , Adam Ashley-Cooper (nuff said), Sofiane Guitoune (winger involved with france at WC)
and Metuisela Talebula (Fijian flyer).
i fancy that if Bordeaux do well over the next couple of seasons Buttin will catch the french selectors eye before too long.

by GLove39 Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:38 am

MacKnocked-on wrote:As I wrote earlier in this thread, I think Wilson and Swinson must be the lucky recipients of some misread player analysis. I've read Cotter going on about how Wilson is the 'fastest forward in the squad' etc etc whilst ignoring the evidence of his own eyes (that supposed speed doesn't achieve anything during a rugby match),evidence far less qualified observers (all of us on here) can see quite clearly.
I don't really follow French club rugby much but it would be interesting to know if there was a player at Clermont who Cotter kept picking that the fans didn't rate?

Is it bad that part of me was genuinely disappointed when Swinson's citing turned out to be groundless!?
As everyone else has said really hope he's there to hold / carry the bags and not penciled in for a more active role with team

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:40 am

So Wilson over Strauss?

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 VmHnLxj

by GLove39 Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:59 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:So Wilson over Strauss?

Just imagine if the unthinkable happens. Wilson starts, miraculously doesn't get himself yellow carded. And instead goes onto to win man of the match!?

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:05 am

I'd give Jimbopip a late invite to my wedding if Wilson gets motm!

by Fanster Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:12 am

Lets be a little honest here...

Scotland have been admirably stern opposition only in the last 2 games, all the RWC hype, and potential to compete for silverware has given way pretty quickly to the usual doom and gloom, kind of highlighting how thin a layer that original confidence was.

No try at Murrayfield v England again, outgunned in Cardiff, and realistically never looked like winning either of those games.

That said, I think there is a glimmer there, a little sparkle of patches enough to say that Scotland are capable, if not in the very early stages. This has to culminate in a win this weekend, simply put if Scotland lose I think Cotters clock starts ticking down toward his end, which ounds incredibly harsh, but has to be realistic if Scotlands ambitions are higher than the odd win per year.

IMO Scotlands problems are similar to Frances, but produced in the exact opposite way, not enough pro clubs, infrastructure isn't great, and the success Glasgow have got recently has kind of inflated the perceived uality of certain players.

Scotland are slight favourites? I'd think so, but the longer Italy are in the game, the tougher it'll be for them, and I don't think they have the same sort of pressure game England have, or Wales of last year to really put the Italians to the sword.

I hope the Scottish can finally pull together a more complete performance this week.

by bsando Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:41 am

Weir, Strauss, Harley all starting Glasgow vs Dragons.

Hart, Fagerson, Reid on bench.

Interesting. When are Scotland Squad flying out to Italy? Assuming neither Strauss nor Weir will be playing then?

by jimbopip Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:42 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd give Jimbopip a late invite to my wedding if Wilson gets motm!

I'm also available for Bar Mitzvahs and funerals.

Here's the thing; I'm pretty certain Batman will start. Probably at 6 with Clare Baldwin at 8. Hamish From The Glen will be bench and the seven jersey will go to Hardie, if fit otherwise to Barclay. I think VC will be banking on "the pace thing": we look to move the ball away from their big forwards quickly, and keep their pack moving for as long a possible. Since Denton had some very impressive carrying statistics last time out he'll retain his place. Neither Barclay nor Batman are particularly big tacklers, not in the Picamoles or Heaslip mould, then the deciding factor will most likely be "who is the better ball carrier ?". The fleet-footed Batman wins that two horse race. Similarly, the bench spot will most likely go to the player most likely to run the legs off a tiring defence: step forward Mr Watson.N.B. We need to do this otherwise the ball, for both sides, will be slow and predictable. This won't affect the Italian style but would reduce Frodo to endless box kicks and make Dancer a virtual spectator.
So, in that scenario, if we win it'll be because the mobile back row will have succeeded in moving the point of attack away from the Azzuri's fat boys. In which case Batman will have had a very good game. Shocked

p.s. RDW, there will be a free bar, right? And nippy sauce like they do in Leith Walk's finest eateries?

p.p.s. Just to pass on the really big rugby story of the week..... Young Pipetto will be named Most Improved Player at the end of season beano. Yahoo

I'm like the proverbial dog with two appendages. Yahoo

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:22 pm

jimbopip wrote:
p.s. RDW, there will be a free bar, right? And nippy sauce like they do in Leith Walk's finest eateries?

p.p.s. Just to pass on the really big rugby story of the week..... Young Pipetto will be named Most Improved Player at the end of season beano. I'm like the proverbial dog with two appendages.

P.s. - Absolutely not - we're paying for most of it!

P.p.s - that could mean one of two things; he was either god awful at the start of the season and gas now learnt how to catch the ball, or he's grown into Richie McCaw mark 2 and tosses aside all who stand before him! Hug

by Tattie Scones RRN Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:05 pm

Fanster wrote:Lets be a little honest here...

Scotland have been admirably stern opposition only in the last 2 games, all the RWC hype, and potential to compete for silverware has given way pretty quickly to the usual doom and gloom, kind of highlighting how thin a layer that original confidence was.

No try at Murrayfield v England again, outgunned in Cardiff, and realistically never looked like winning either of those games.

That said, I think there is a glimmer there, a little sparkle of patches enough to say that Scotland are capable, if not in the very early stages. This has to culminate in a win this weekend, simply put if Scotland lose I think Cotters clock starts ticking down toward his end, which ounds incredibly harsh, but has to be realistic if Scotlands ambitions are higher than the odd win per year.

IMO Scotlands problems are similar to Frances, but produced in the exact opposite way, not enough pro clubs, infrastructure isn't great, and the success Glasgow have got recently has kind of inflated the perceived uality of certain players.

Scotland are slight favourites? I'd think so, but the longer Italy are in the game, the tougher it'll be for them, and I don't think they have the same sort of pressure game England have, or Wales of last year to really put the Italians to the sword.

I hope the Scottish can finally pull together a more complete performance this week.

Completely disagree. At half time against England, we were marginally behind and well on top of England. Against Wales, we lead at half time and if the ref and TMO had done their jobs properly, the margin of the lead would have been 7 points higher.

If Scotland lose, Cotter's clock will not be running down. The problem is the player's mentality and ability to execute their skills under pressure. If they can't catch the f**king ball, that is not Cotter's fault.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:09 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
p.s. RDW, there will be a free bar, right? And nippy sauce like they do in Leith Walk's finest eateries?

p.p.s. Just to pass on the really big rugby story of the week..... Young Pipetto will be named Most Improved Player at the end of season beano. I'm like the proverbial dog with two appendages.

P.s. - Absolutely not - we're paying for most of it!

P.p.s - that could mean one of two things; he was either god awful at the start of the season and gas now learnt how to catch the ball, or he's grown into Richie McCaw mark 2 and tosses aside all who stand before him!

Here's a question: which Scottish player would win "Most Improved Player" over the last 12 months?

Having given that question the same amount of thought as time taken to type this, I would opt for either Fraser Brown or Tommy Seymour.

by Fanster Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:14 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Fanster wrote:Lets be a little honest here...

Scotland have been admirably stern opposition only in the last 2 games, all the RWC hype, and potential to compete for silverware has given way pretty quickly to the usual doom and gloom, kind of highlighting how thin a layer that original confidence was.

No try at Murrayfield v England again, outgunned in Cardiff, and realistically never looked like winning either of those games.

That said, I think there is a glimmer there, a little sparkle of patches enough to say that Scotland are capable, if not in the very early stages. This has to culminate in a win this weekend, simply put if Scotland lose I think Cotters clock starts ticking down toward his end, which ounds incredibly harsh, but has to be realistic if Scotlands ambitions are higher than the odd win per year.

IMO Scotlands problems are similar to Frances, but produced in the exact opposite way, not enough pro clubs, infrastructure isn't great, and the success Glasgow have got recently has kind of inflated the perceived uality of certain players.

Scotland are slight favourites? I'd think so, but the longer Italy are in the game, the tougher it'll be for them, and I don't think they have the same sort of pressure game England have, or Wales of last year to really put the Italians to the sword.

I hope the Scottish can finally pull together a more complete performance this week.

Completely disagree. At half time against England, we were marginally behind and well on top of England. Against Wales, we lead at half time and if the ref and TMO had done their jobs properly, the margin of the lead would have been 7 points higher.

If Scotland lose, Cotter's clock will not be running down. The problem is the player's mentality and ability to execute their skills under pressure. If they can't catch the f**king ball, that is not Cotter's fault.

Without sounding harsh I have to disagree with most of that, I never once felt in either game that Scotland really threatened to beat England or Wales. They were stubborn, and attempted to play but realistically havn't got any qualms about both losses.

Cotters job is to win games, hence he has to teach players who can't catch the ball to catch the ball, or design a system around players who can't catch a ball, so if they consistently drop balls yes, it is Cotters fault.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:11 pm

Well in the spirit of compromise I think you're both wrong.

Fanster: we have to be realistic, with the group of players we have it is not fair to judge Cotter purely on games won and lost. Tom English makes this point in his article - is it really a failure to lose narrowly to Wales in Cardiff given the players we have, the players they have and the fact that Gatland has been with his side for years whereas this is Cotter's second 6 Nations (and he inherited a bit of a mess from Scott Johnson). I think a win:lose ratio is too crude a means by which to judge a coach. If we lose to Italy this weekend however, then I think criticism will be justified (especially if he picks Ryan Wilson), although I think we're a long long way off considering his position.

Tattie - what we can judge Cotter on his performance, and whether we're seeing improvements in the way Scotland play are our competitiveness. He is responsible for the coaching of the side, from everything down to the scrum, lineout and skills. Yes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (I'm starting to sound like Scott Johnson), but ultimately if good players are not performing to their potential then Cotter needs to take a share of that. We shouldn't have lost to Italy last season, and he's made some pretty obvious selection blunders. I think his performance thus far has probably been about 6/10. If we beat Italy and France I'd put that to a 7/10. Lose to Italy and collect a second consecutive Wooden Spoon and he's probably down to a 5/10. Do that, then I think the 6 Nations in 2017 would be last chance saloon. I wouldn't be looking to replace him before Summer 2017 whatever happens. We need to give him a chance.

by dmc Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:18 pm

Team has been announced:

Dickinson, Ford, Nel
R Gray, J Gray
Barclay, Hardie, Denton

SUBS:
16 McInally17 Sutherland (uncapped) 18 Low 19 Swinson 20 Wilson 21 Hidalgo-Clyne 22 Horne 23 Lamont

by GLove39 Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:20 pm

Well that's the team out. And just look at the impact to come off the bench...

15. Hogg
14. Scoremore
13. angel

12. Taylor
11. Visser
10. Russell
9. Greeg (c)

8. Denton
7. Hardie
6. Barclay
5. 50 shades
4. 50 shades
3. Nel
2. Ford
1. Dickinson

Bench
16. Rambo, 17. Sutherland, 18. Low, 19. Tim "the impact machine Swinson, 20. Ryan "everyone on 606v2's favorite player Wilson, 21. SHC, 22. Horne, 21. Shlong

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:20 pm

dmc wrote:Team has been announced:

Dickinson, Ford, Nel
R Gray, J Gray
Barclay, Hardie, Denton

SUBS:
16 McInally17 Sutherland (uncapped) 18 Low 19 Swinson 20 Wilson 21 Hidalgo-Clyne 22 Horne 23 Lamont

So basically he has gone for even less impact off the bench Rolling Eyes

Watson must be pretty demoralised seeing Wilson getting picked ahead of him.

Lamont still???

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 CcDWR0iWwAARXsu

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 CcDWR0iWwAARXsu

by GLove39 Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:25 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
dmc wrote:Team has been announced:

Dickinson, Ford, Nel
R Gray, J Gray
Barclay, Hardie, Denton

SUBS:
16 McInally17 Sutherland (uncapped) 18 Low 19 Swinson 20 Wilson 21 Hidalgo-Clyne 22 Horne 23 Lamont

So basically he has gone for even less impact off the bench

Watson must be pretty demoralised seeing Wilson getting picked ahead of him.

Lamont still???

Can't go to Rome & not take the centurion!

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:29 pm

Lamont's continued selection on the bench is just as baffling.

Matt Scott offers so much more impact off the bench, with Duncan Taylor covering back 3.

That bench is so weak - if we've not got at least a 7 point lead with 20 minutes to go i won't be confident.

by bsando Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:30 pm

I like the team, I think they can win.

Sad not to see Strauss in squad but as long as he features at some point then I'll be happy.

Swinson and Wilson both need a decent game off the bench, but I'm confident they can do it.

Lamont will do well off the bench and his recent try scoring record vs Italy is very good so that is a plus.

Visser I hope can bring back that spark we all know he has.

All in all pretty happy.

by Fanster Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:32 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well in the spirit of compromise I think you're both wrong.

Fanster: we have to be realistic, with the group of players we have it is not fair to judge Cotter purely on games won and lost. Tom English makes this point in his article - is it really a failure to lose narrowly to Wales in Cardiff given the players we have, the players they have and the fact that Gatland has been with his side for years whereas this is Cotter's second 6 Nations (and he inherited a bit of a mess from Scott Johnson). I think a win:lose ratio is too crude a means by which to judge a coach. If we lose to Italy this weekend however, then I think criticism will be justified (especially if he picks Ryan Wilson), although I think we're a long long way off considering his position.

Tattie - what we can judge Cotter on his performance, and whether we're seeing improvements in the way Scotland play are our competitiveness. He is responsible for the coaching of the side, from everything down to the scrum, lineout and skills. Yes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (I'm starting to sound like Scott Johnson), but ultimately if good players are not performing to their potential then Cotter needs to take a share of that. We shouldn't have lost to Italy last season, and he's made some pretty obvious selection blunders. I think his performance thus far has probably been about 6/10. If we beat Italy and France I'd put that to a 7/10. Lose to Italy and collect a second consecutive Wooden Spoon and he's probably down to a 5/10. Do that, then I think the 6 Nations in 2017 would be last chance saloon. I wouldn't be looking to replace him before Summer 2017 whatever happens. We need to give him a chance.

For the record I agree, my point was losing this weekend piles pressure on Cotter!

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:37 pm

I'm pleased with he starting XV, especially given we knew that Strauss wasn't in contention anyway. Very happy that Visser has come straight in rather than S Lamont, and utterly delighted that Wilson is not starting.

That's the positive bit out of the way.

On the downside, we have Swinson and Wilson as impact subs on the bench. The Italians have powerful forwards and these guys are basically a fart in the wind by comparison. If the game is close in the final quarter then we cannot look to these guys to turn the tide. It is painfully obvious that Ben Toolis and Josh Strauss or Hamish Watson would give us more in the final 15-20 minutes.

I'd also query the decision to select Sean Lamont. Offered us nothing against Wales and it's been a really long time since he's done anything of note on a rugby pitch. If he is indeed the fastest player in the Glasgow squad, then he's done sod all to demonstrate his prowess for about three years. I thought Jackson was excellent off the bench against Wales and showed a lovely delayed pass to put Taylor over for the consolation score. If we're thinking we need a winger on the bench as cover then Tom Brown at Edinburgh is in comfortably better form than Lamont. I just don't see what Lamont does for us anymore.

by cakeordeath Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:38 pm

GLove39 wrote:Well that's the team out. And just look at the impact to come off the bench...

15. Hogg
14. Scoremore
13.
12. Taylor
11. Visser
10. Russell
9. Greeg (c)

8. Denton
7. Hardie
6. Barclay
5. 50 shades
4. 50 shades
3. Nel
2. Ford
1. Dickinson

Bench
16. Rambo, 17. Sutherland, 18. Low, 19. Tim "the impact machine Swinson, 20. Ryan "everyone on 606v2's favorite player Wilson, 21. SHC, 22. Horne, 21. Shlong

I don't understand why this is happening to us!

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:45 pm

On the plus side I agree with the front row cover on the bench. Moray Low has been performing well as an impact sub at Exeter, and he been working with an extremely effective group of forwards under the excellent Rob Baxter down at Sandy Park. I'm pleased to see him back and playing good rugby. He was messed about at Glasgow with a really silly switch to the loosehead side. He's good a lot more to offer and is in good form at the prime of his career as a prop.

Also pleased with McInally and Sutherland. McInally is starting to show his huge potential as a hooker and will, unlike Wilson, offer us some impact in the later stages of the game. He's a skillful player and a strong ball carrier. Sutherland has played really well for Edinburgh this season and is hugely promising. Whilst probably less of an impact player than the other two, I won't stress about the scrum if he comes on.

by Majestic83 Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:56 pm

Happy with the starting XV to take on Italy.

Good to see Visser back on the wing as hopefully he will cause Italy problems especially with his support running.

Bench is a mixed bag, front row replacements are spot on, Moray Low is playing very well down at Exeter. Sutherland has been playing well for Edinburgh and is a similar style prop to Dickinson, good at scrum time, and good in open play. He has put in some huge hits for Edinburgh recently.
McInally offers good impact from the bench, excellent ball carrier and good pace about the pitch.
Backs subs are decent, hopefully see a bit more of SHC and use his pace when the Italians are tiring. Horne is a big call over Jackson, Jackson looked good when he replaced Hogg and has been playing well for Wasps so is v unlucky to miss out. Horne is a good player but is only just back so is a big ask of him.
Lamont on the bench I have no real problems with, yes he is nearing the end of his career and yes he isn't a flying machine but he does offer good impact from the bench. When teams are tiring and he has been used from the bench before he often proves a bit of a nightmare for them with his hard running.
The problem area on the bench is 2nd row and back row replacements. Swinson I can slightly understand but Wilson really is just beyond me. I just don't see what he offers at all, he doesn't hit the rucks particularly well and clears out, he isn't the best support running back row, he doesn't slow the ball down or steal much ball at the breakdown. He tries to act like an enforcer but isn't smart enough to do that role and gets caught out.

by demosthenes Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:02 pm

I think Toonie and Stern Vern tossed a coin to see who would get Strauss, and who Wilson. Toonie won!

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:05 pm

Hogg goes of injured who goes to full back? Taylor? Jackson really should be gutted more than anyone else to be left out...

by **RDW** Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:06 pm

Seymour I'm assuming with Usain Bolt coming onto the wing off the bench

by **NeilyBroon** Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Seymour I'm assuming with Usain Bolt coming onto the wing off the bench

Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider - Page 3 Maxresdefault

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:19 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Seymour I'm assuming with Usain Bolt coming onto the wing off the bench

Surely Seymour to full back, Taylor to wing and then Horne to the centre? Can't figure out why Jackson was dropped but Lamont was retained.

Lamont did nothing near as useful as Jackson against Wales.

Furthermore Wilson is another strange decision. Despite his KAPOWING people in the kebab shop what has he done that is note worthy?

by funnyExiledScot Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:26 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Seymour I'm assuming with Usain Bolt coming onto the wing off the bench

Surely Seymour to full back, Taylor to wing and then Horne to the centre? Can't figure out why Jackson was dropped but Lamont was retained.

Lamont did nothing near as useful as Jackson against Wales.

Furthermore Wilson is another strange decision. Despite his KAPOWING people in the kebab shop what has he done that is note worthy?

I think Jackson is being punished for setting up that try. He was probably supposed to kick the ball away.

I'm not upset about Peter Horne on the bench, he's a clever player and had a great game against Munster. Matt Scott is probably a bit unlucky but I don't think there's too much between them. It's Lamont over Jackson that bothers me. If Russell gets injured early doors then we have Horne at 10 for an extended period. That is a concern.

by Hazel Sapling Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:34 pm

The bench is terrible bar the front row.

Horne has just come back from a longer term injury than Scott and a potential Russell-Horne-Bennett midfield 10 minutes in, if Taylor takes a knock, is pacey and tiny. Seymour or Lamont are covering full back. Actually not the worst options but Jackson offers better cover for 10 and 15. Lamont works hard, tries hard and is not a high level performer. There are better options such as Brown, Scott or Horne that offer far more versatility. Poor.

Swinson can pick the pace up a little bit (thought he had a decent game against Munster) however you lose a vast amount of power at international level. Toolis is a big, physical lump who works hard. In a tight game what do you want. Wilson is a mystery. Watson, Strauss, Fusaro and Harley are all outplaying him. After last years debacle, I doubt your picking him on his personality.

by **NeilyBroon** Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:35 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Seymour I'm assuming with Usain Bolt coming onto the wing off the bench

Surely Seymour to full back, Taylor to wing and then Horne to the centre? Can't figure out why Jackson was dropped but Lamont was retained.

Lamont did nothing near as useful as Jackson against Wales.

Furthermore Wilson is another strange decision. Despite his KAPOWING people in the kebab shop what has he done that is note worthy?

I think Jackson is being punished for setting up that try. He was probably supposed to kick the ball away.

I'm not upset about Peter Horne on the bench, he's a clever player and had a great game against Munster. Matt Scott is probably a bit unlucky but I don't think there's too much between them. It's Lamont over Jackson that bothers me. If Russell gets injured early doors then we have Horne at 10 for an extended period. That is a concern.

Especially after the last time we came up against Italy with Horne in that position...

The last thing we need is one of our decent players' confidence shot.

by Ryan Wilson Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:36 pm

Frak YOU ALL

by **BigGee** Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:53 pm

I pretty much agree with everyone else. Happy with the starting team, though surely there must be some changes coming if they don't deliver this time.

The bench a mixed bag. The front row is fine and Low and Sutherland deserve their chances. With hindsight it was probably a tad to soon for Fargarson, who will have benefitted from the experience and Reid has not really shown in his opportunities that he is an international player.

I share the same feelings about Swinson and Wilson as everyone else, except Toonie and VC it would seem, both of whom really rate the two of them (well what do they know!). Swinson played very well against Munster last weekend and Wilson has been playing well for Glasgow as well. Neither of them have convinced in internationals up to now, surely it is now or never for the two of them.

The unluckiest player to miss out is Jacko, who played well last week. Horne has been playing well to though since coming back and you can only feel that they felt he offered a bit more versatility and playmaking. For Lamont, you can only think that he wanted an out and out winger, about the only position Horne does not cover, but S H-C could have, he is probably more likely to get on there as at SH.

I think he is keeping Lamont in for his experience and what he brings to the squad. If we could get this team winning then he could be gently put out to pasture. There are enough inexperienced players in the squad already. Lamont may not be a match winner any more, but he rarely lets us down either, unlike plenty of the others!

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