Italy vs Scotland - The Wooden Spoon Decider

BigGee wrote:I pretty much agree with everyone else. Happy with the starting team, though surely there must be some changes coming if they don't deliver this time.

The bench a mixed bag. The front row is fine and Low and Sutherland deserve their chances. With hindsight it was probably a tad to soon for Fargarson, who will have benefitted from the experience and Reid has not really shown in his opportunities that he is an international player.

I share the same feelings about Swinson and Wilson as everyone else, except Toonie and VC it would seem, both of whom really rate the two of them (well what do they know!). Swinson played very well against Munster last weekend and Wilson has been playing well for Glasgow as well. Neither of them have convinced in internationals up to now, surely it is now or never for the two of them.

The unluckiest player to miss out is Jacko, who played well last week. Horne has been playing well to though since coming back and you can only feel that they felt he offered a bit more versatility and playmaking. For Lamont, you can only think that he wanted an out and out winger, about the only position Horne does not cover, but S H-C could have, he is probably more likely to get on there as at SH.

I think he is keeping Lamont in for his experience and what he brings to the squad. If we could get this team winning then he could be gently put out to pasture. There are enough inexperienced players in the squad already. Lamont may not be a match winner any more, but he rarely lets us down either, unlike plenty of the others!

Ryan Wilson wrote:Frak YOU ALL

NeilyBroon wrote:How about Peter Murchie? He was playing quite well for a while as an understudy to Hogg. Didn't offer anywhere near as much in attack, but generally a good solid fullback. Anyone who follows Glasgow, how's he been playing recently?

IanBru wrote:

Ryan Wilson wrote:Frak YOU ALL

Always good to meet a Battlestar Galactica fan.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Apologies but Ryan Wilson's account has had to be suspended for causing a rammy in the kebab shop section of the forum.

(in reality someone has made a funny alter ego but them's the rules that we can't have duplicate accounts!)

A prize for guessing who it is....

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Apologies but Ryan Wilson's account has had to be suspended for causing a rammy in the kebab shop section of the forum.

(in reality someone has made a funny alter ego but them's the rules that we can't have duplicate accounts!)

A prize for guessing who it is....

So you decided to Ban poor Ryan instead of me?

TJ wrote:I really rate Horne - he is an elusive runner and could do a very good job for scotland at running around folk rather than trying to run thru them.  His form over the last year merits a call up

Can anyone explain Swinson?  Never seen him do anything good - cost games via yellow cards instead

RDW_Scotland wrote:Apologies but Ryan Wilson's account has had to be suspended for causing a rammy in the kebab shop section of the forum.

(in reality someone has made a funny alter ego but them's the rules that we can't have duplicate accounts!)

A prize for guessing who it is....

Ryan Wilson wrote:Frak YOU ALL

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

That is good news. Haimona is that huge block who plays fly half with no passing or kicking game to speak of.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

That is good news. Haimona is that huge block who plays fly half with no passing or kicking game to speak of.

Given that they have done well in the past by not letting the ball escape the forwards I'm not going to get too excited about who they have at 10!

NeilyBroon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

That is good news. Haimona is that huge block who plays fly half with no passing or kicking game to speak of.

Given that they have done well in the past by not letting the ball escape the forwards I'm not going to get too excited about who they have at 10!

Is anyone else s**tting a proverbial brick about this match?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

That is good news. Haimona is that huge block who plays fly half with no passing or kicking game to speak of.

Given that they have done well in the past by not letting the ball escape the forwards I'm not going to get too excited about who they have at 10!

Is anyone else s**tting a proverbial brick about this match?

Not really. I actually think this is the weakest Itallian team we have seen in ages. They made France look much better than they are and I have also seen better England teams struggle against Italy. Jones' England tore them a new one.

Scotland by 10 to 15 points IMO.

However that is heavily dependent on who we have on the pitch. The longer the 1st XV stays out the better we'll do.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I can't say I share Radge's confidence - I think this is going to be watching behind the sofa stuff with us squeezing in a narrow win

NeilyBroon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Also in exciting news Canna is out & replaced by Haimona.
If we don't beat Italy now it'll be even more embarrassing.

That is good news. Haimona is that huge block who plays fly half with no passing or kicking game to speak of.

Given that they have done well in the past by not letting the ball escape the forwards I'm not going to get too excited about who they have at 10!

Is anyone else s**tting a proverbial brick about this match?

Not really. I actually think this is the weakest Itallian team we have seen in ages. They made France look much better than they are and I have also seen better England teams struggle against Italy. Jones' England tore them a new one.

Scotland by 10 to 15 points IMO.

However that is heavily dependent on who we have on the pitch. The longer the 1st XV stays out the better we'll do.

I hope you're right! I can't help but feel they will choke our play for 40 mins and we'll get a 3 point lead but then the players will panic, with Laidlaw breaking the boxkicking record in the space of 5 minutes. Their forwards vs our forwards concerns me, especially after our lineout. If we get territory advantage we can't seem to make the most of it, especially on lineouts.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Cotter has picked a team that can and hopefully will play at tempo. If we do that Italy will lose.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Scotland don't go into this match with the favorites mindset and really focus on putting this Italian team to the sword we will have made no progress.

This Itallian team is dire, full of Treviso and Zebre players.

We are worried about Swinson and Lamont. Nearly a third of these players are from Treviso who went nearly a year without a win. The other third are in the routinely pumped Zebre team. Both 16 points adrift of the worst placed Scottish team (the 1872 cup runners up).

Apart from Ghiraldini at hooker and Parisse at 8 we have better players in every position.

I'm not concerned and neither should our players be. However they shouldn't be complacent either.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Cotter has picked a team that can and hopefully will play at tempo. If we do that Italy will lose.

And Ryan Wilson

beshocked wrote:I wouldn't look too much into the Italy vs England result as England are one of the most daunting teams for Italy to face, psychologically it's tough facing someone you haven't beaten.

beshocked wrote:

Scotland don't have that hold over Italy anyone really.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Apologies but Ryan Wilson's account has had to be suspended for causing a rammy in the kebab shop section of the forum.

(in reality someone has made a funny alter ego but them's the rules that we can't have duplicate accounts!)

A prize for guessing who it is....

So you decided to Ban poor Ryan instead of me?

Six Nations 2016: Scotland cannot fail in Italy

By Tom English
BBC Scotland

It's safe to say that if you presented the names of the Scotland players from the infamous era of the early 1950s, not too many of the current team would have heard of them.

We're talking about the boys of February 1951 - February 1955, a band of men who broke all records and lost 15 games in a row in what was then the Five Nations championship.

There were nuances, of course. Some narrow losses. A missed kick here and a dodgy call there. A try-scoring opportunity spurned. A lineout that went badly wrong.

Rugby has changed profoundly but, 60 years on, don't those gripes sound a little familiar?

Jock King was a hooker in the midst of that run, his international record reading played four, lost four. Jack Hegarty was a back-row - played six and lost six. Donald Cameron was a centre with the same record.

Hamish Dawson, a prop, played in seven of the 15 defeats. Doug Elliot and Peter Kininmonth, back-row forwards, played in nine. Kininmonth was captain for five of them, before the mantle passed to another poor soul whose luck was no better.

We mention them now because their ghosts are beginning to hover above their successors' heads six decades later.

Greig Laidlaw's team are beginning to close in on them in the annals of the damned. This Scotland team have now left behind the pre- and post-war team of 1939-1947 who lost seven on the bounce.

Not that they're ever likely to forget, but Laidlaw's men are on nine-in-a-row, the second worst run in the championship in Scotland's 145-year history.

They can bring it to an end with victory in Rome this weekend, of course. They're good enough and they're favourites to do it.

How they must crave the win, not just to build a path to the future, but to obliterate all these reminders of the past.

Nine straight losses. Looked at coldly, it's a number to make you wince. Even when you put it in context, it still doesn't get a whole lot better, but it needs to be done.

Scotland lost six of those nine games by seven points or less. They lost eight of them against teams that few thought they would beat. The only game they lost that they were expected to win was Italy, at Murrayfield, last season.

That's where we're at. We beat them up for losing to teams that we expect to lose to. It's a crazy kind of logic borne out of frustration and angst.

Rome needs to be different. There can be no excuses, no nuances. Italy are not a better team than Scotland.

That argument holds water against all the other Six Nations sides but not against Italy. The reverse is true on current evidence.

Man for man, you'd select a heap more Scots than you would Italians in a composite XV. This is an eminently beatable side that must be put away or else, truly, the ground will open and devour Vern Cotter and his players.

The nine defeats have taught Scotland more lessons than a high school kid could hear in a year. They learn and then unlearn. They heed and then forget. They move up only to move back.

The moral of the nine losses...

Scotland 17-19 France - When your opponents' lineout is in complete disarray - France lost eight of their 14 throws - you take advantage. When you're ahead with 90 seconds left, you see it out. You don't lose your head under pressure, give away a penalty and get beaten in a game you ought to have won.

Wales 51-3 Scotland - You don't pick up needless yellow cards. Or in this case, an early red card that ended any chance of a victory.

France 15-8 Scotland - You take your points, part I. If you miss a straightforward drop-goal, as Finn Russell did, you could suffer. If you miss a makeable conversion, as Laidlaw did, you pile the pressure on yourself. When you pick up another yellow card, for Johnnie Beattie, you invite trouble. When you don't score in the entire second half, you don't deserve to win.

Scotland 23-26 Wales - You take your points, part II. You make your possession pay. So many visits to the Welsh 22 and not enough to show for it. You keep the scoreboard ticking. You plant the seed of doubt.

Scotland 19-22 Italy - When you're winning with 10 minutes to go, you don't lose your mind, as Scotland did. They mentally imploded all over the park. They conceded penalty after penalty. Botched a lineout. Missed a critical kick to touch. Picked up two yellow cards. And got suckered, again, by Italy's lineout maul. The lack of leadership in these moments was gobsmacking.

England 25-13 Scotland - You take your points, part III. Scotland didn't score in the second half, again.

Scotland 10-40 Ireland - You take your points, part IV. No points in the second half once more. Not enough aggression either. Maybe it still wouldn't have been enough against an Irish team on a points-scoring mission, but Scotland lost the physical battle resoundingly and almost embarrassingly.

Scotland 9-15 England - You take your points, part V. Laidlaw missed a kickable penalty. Russell missed a makeable drop-goal. Scotland scored three points in the second half. Had Russell made a key pass to Stuart Hogg, the full-back might have gone the length of the field to score. We've all seen this movie before.

Wales 27-23 Scotland - You don't cough up four lineouts. You don't fail to execute another gorgeous overlap for the second week in a row - John Barclay missing Hogg. You hope the referee doesn't get it wrong in awarding your opponent a try that should never have been, but it happens. It seems to happen to Scotland a lot.

A new beginning?

If there's a refereeing blunder in Rome, it can't mean the difference between victory and defeat for Scotland. They need to be better than that.

They know more than any of us will ever know about the myriad ways they have lost these nine games because they've lived them, studied them, been tormented by them.

Rome has to be the end of the self-inflicted damage and the beginning of something different.

From those nine losses you could cut together 80 minutes of action that would make Scotland look like Wales in their Golden Era. There is talent, but is there composure, is there manic aggression combined with detached cool, is there ruthlessness or just another breakdown under pressure, is there a win or another failure?

This team doesn't need to learn any more lessons. They've heard them all. They just need to win a game of rugby.

bsando wrote:Good article!

Interestingly, as usual, stats can be misleading. Scotland have won 5 times out of their last 6 matches vs Italy. In fact, the last time Scotland lost and deserved to lose, was in the 2012 6 nations under Andy Robinson.

Technically yes, Scotland are on a 6N losing streak of 9 games. However, in reality they have definitely been the better team vs Italy over the past 3 years. Last years game we can all agree was a poor performance but never the less a game Scotland should of won, had it not been for a huge lapse of concentration from Horne in the final minutes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah completely disagree. This is sport and the reason we all love it is because it's not a done deal that the best team always wins, or even the one who plays the best.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry, you misunderstand, I never said they were unlucky in every game they played; just disagree with any statement to say the 'best' team always wins (whether that is the best performance on the day or the better team in terms of say league position).

Fanster wrote:What are you talking about?

England and Wales were both favourites over Scotland, for a reason. Did Scotland do enough to win those games, no, did they outplay either team? No. Did they outscore, outmuscle, or outthink either team? No.

So in what way are Scotland just perennial unlucktards?

My point is, you get what you deserve, every home supporter feels robbed at times, but thats why theyre just supporters and not rugby professionals, who recognise the deficiancies, and work on making them better. Vern Cotter isn't walking around Italy right now cursing his luck that he isn't 2 from 2, he knows better than that.

Fanster wrote:

bsando wrote:Good article!

Interestingly, as usual, stats can be misleading. Scotland have won 5 times out of their last 6 matches vs Italy. In fact, the last time Scotland lost and deserved to lose, was in the 2012 6 nations under Andy Robinson.

Technically yes, Scotland are on a 6N losing streak of 9 games. However, in reality they have definitely been the better team vs Italy over the past 3 years. Last years game we can all agree was a poor performance but never the less a game Scotland should of won, had it not been for a huge lapse of concentration from Horne in the final minutes.

By this thought process can Australia claim a RWC in 2003? Wales a RWC final 2011, France 2011's RWC trophy?

No, if you lose it's because you deserved to lose, you lost.

I really dislike this victim mentality

Fanster wrote:bsando

I agree, Scotland should be confident, and based on how both teams have played they are deserved favourites, but I disagree, any loss in the last minutes of the game can be the victors composure and pressure just as much if not more than losers errors.

Rugger

Grow up, if your this easily offended by me making comments that Scotland don't deserve to be 2 from 2, or that the SH teams always get out of jail and it can't be constant luck then this is probably the wrong place for you!

For the record, I don't think the 9 losses amount to anything either, some were pre Cotter, and some were buidling games in his first season, they had a succesfull RWC in their terms, even if I disliked them throwing a game they shouldve gone for, and were a bad ref decision from a historic semi. That said they have been as expected in their first 2 games, tough opposition without a real threat to the result.

Pressure is massive on Scotland now, it's as weak an Italian side you will see, a pack in transition, nothing but Campagnaro in the backline, they will be tough, and determined for 60 mins, realistically lose this and this tournament will be on the brink of disaster.