Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

First topic message reminder :

and replace it with a Euro Super League

Looks like he wants more Celts in it - 6 French, 6 English & 8 Pro12

http://www.the42.ie/mourad-boudjellal-european-super-league-2671582-Mar2016/

I'd prefer this to any old B&I league.

BamBam wrote:So just to clarify

The Irish are evil the absolute best because the unions control the provincial budgets
The English are evil because there's rich owners willing to put money in
The French are evil because there's rich owners willing to put money in AND they want to scrap the Champions Cup
The Scots are evil because they sold their soul to BT at the last negotiations

Got it

Sorted now

The RFU definitely gives money to the Aviva clubs for picking a certain amount of English qualified players. The WRU provide resources so the Welsh teams can afford top Welsh players. Would these be banned? Can't see it.

marty2086 wrote:That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

The bit in bold. 

The union controlled clubs get significantly more funding than what they would generate as a privately own concern. This is where we do not have meritocracy.


Anyway this argument has been done to death with PhillBB. Both sides of the argument had it's credence, but the fact still remains, it is not a level playing field when you have both union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs all playing in the same competition.

But now we can all see why this league won't work

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

I am guessing the major difference is that a private investor is more likely to say sod this, and pull their cash out.  Whereas the union is not.  Also, as it stands, there are no two clubs owned by the same private backer etc.  Also there could be a situation in a league with promotion/relegation whereby a team that are safe from relegation, but not in the chase to win the tournament, can lose a game to a lower side (owned by the same people) saving the from relegation.  There have been grumbles before about this with the Pro12, but if it were in a system with relegation, the accusations (even if not true) would become more frequent, which in turn would 'weaken' the tournament.

I understand your point, but it's not entirely true. There was a time that the IRFU was going to drop Connacht, until faced with a protest from the other three Provinces. I'm pretty sure the SRU would disagree as well.

LordDowlais wrote:You bet your bottom dollar the rich french and English club owners will find something to complain about with union controlled clubs.

Indeed, they do tend to bitch and moan when not getting their way.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

The bit in bold. 

The union controlled clubs get significantly more funding than what they would generate as a privately own concern. This is where we do not have meritocracy.


Anyway this argument has been done to death with PhillBB. Both sides of the argument had it's credence, but the fact still remains, it is not a level playing field when you have both union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs all playing in the same competition.

You keep saying that privately owned clubs don't get as much funding yet Mourad funded Toulon and their vast squad until a few years ago and financed new ventures to fund them going forward. Racings new stadium was paid for by Jacky Lorenzetti and will be used to fund Racing as signings like Dan Carter. Bath and particularly Saracens are been propped up by wealthy owners who are putting money in to finance their big signings, we are essentially working with two sides of the same coin.

Pete330v2 wrote:"No I do not own the same manual as phill, that member is a plonker who thinks the world stops outside of Cardiff."

Pot - Kettle anyone ???

Anyway LD get off your high horsed crusade against the Irish Provinces. It doesn't matter who backs you if there is a strict salary cap in place. Also, if the IRFU policies on non-Irish qualified players came into for for the other clubs in the Pro12 alone it would become very clear how very restrictive these policies are. It doesn't matter if the bank account is flush when you aren't allowed to spend any of it.

LD, your constant attacks on Irish rugby are just boring now, at least they used to be slightly amusing. This broken record thing you do is just dull now.

I knew it would not take long for this to start, typical of this forum and how it is going down hill, you cannot have a decent debate on here anymore. 

If you can point me to where I have crusaded against Irish rugby on this thread then I will apologise, where are my constant attacks ? It's member like you who are ruining this forum.

All I have said is, that union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs cannot compete fairly in the same competitions as each other.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

The bit in bold. 

The union controlled clubs get significantly more funding than what they would generate as a privately own concern. This is where we do not have meritocracy.


Anyway this argument has been done to death with PhillBB. Both sides of the argument had it's credence, but the fact still remains, it is not a level playing field when you have both union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs all playing in the same competition.

Are you trying to claim that clubs like Bath, Saracens, Bristol, Worchester, Wasps, Racing, Pau (among many) are not subsidised by their owners?

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"No I do not own the same manual as phill, that member is a plonker who thinks the world stops outside of Cardiff."

Pot - Kettle anyone ???

Anyway LD get off your high horsed crusade against the Irish Provinces. It doesn't matter who backs you if there is a strict salary cap in place. Also, if the IRFU policies on non-Irish qualified players came into for for the other clubs in the Pro12 alone it would become very clear how very restrictive these policies are. It doesn't matter if the bank account is flush when you aren't allowed to spend any of it.

LD, your constant attacks on Irish rugby are just boring now, at least they used to be slightly amusing. This broken record thing you do is just dull now.

I knew it would not take long for this to start, typical of this forum and how it is going down hill, you cannot have a decent debate on here anymore. 

If you can point me to where I have crusaded against Irish rugby on this thread then I will apologise, where are my constant attacks ? It's member like you who are ruining this forum.

All I have said is, that union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs cannot compete fairly in the same competitions as each other.

Bruce Craig, Nigel Wray, Lackie Laurenzetti, Michelin, etc. etc. have a lot more money than any of the Rugby Unions.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

The bit in bold. 

The union controlled clubs get significantly more funding than what they would generate as a privately own concern. This is where we do not have meritocracy.


Anyway this argument has been done to death with PhillBB. Both sides of the argument had it's credence, but the fact still remains, it is not a level playing field when you have both union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs all playing in the same competition.

You keep saying that privately owned clubs don't get as much funding yet Mourad funded Toulon and their vast squad until a few years ago and financed new ventures to fund them going forward. Racings new stadium was paid for by Jacky Lorenzetti and will be used to fund Racing as signings like Dan Carter. Bath and particularly Saracens are been propped up by wealthy owners who are putting money in to finance their big signings, we are essentially working with two sides of the same coin.

It's for reasons like you have just pointed out that we need a strict salary cap in this new league, I have said for long enough that there should be one in the Pro12. The more I think about it, I think there should be a FFP type of thing in rugby like there is in football, which if you spend more than what you can make then you should face sanctions.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I agree. And if I'm honest I don't trust the majority of the club owners one bit

but at least they are putting in their OWN earned money into their club and taking all the risks. This does not happen with union controlled clubs. The only way around this would be to have a salary cap, and I have said before there should be one in the Pro12.

Are you saying that the Provinces don't earn their crust? We do put all the effort into finding talent, develop that talent, supply that talent to the national team. We do also promote the game, bring in fans. Fans that will support Ireland. We do also earn money for whatever competitions we enter.

Sin é wrote:Bruce Craig, Nigel Wray, Lackie Laurenzetti, Michelin, etc. etc. have a lot more money than any of the Rugby Unions.

Yes I agree, but it's their money, out of their own back pockets, they as individuals will lose out if it all goes horribly wrong.

That scenario will not happen with union controlled clubs. There is no one person with the sword of damocles hanging over them. Like I said above perhaps a FIFA fair play initiative could be brought into rugby, with sanctions brought in to punish those who do not comply.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Bruce Craig, Nigel Wray, Lackie Laurenzetti, Michelin, etc. etc. have a lot more money than any of the Rugby Unions.

Yes I agree, but it's their money, out of their own back pockets, they as individuals will lose out if it all goes horribly wrong.

That scenario will not happen with union controlled clubs. There is no one person with the sword of damocles hanging over them. Like I said above perhaps a FIFA fair play initiative could be brought into rugby, with sanctions brought in to punish those who do not comply.

Look how well the PRL sanctions worked

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

The bit in bold. 

The union controlled clubs get significantly more funding than what they would generate as a privately own concern. This is where we do not have meritocracy.


Anyway this argument has been done to death with PhillBB. Both sides of the argument had it's credence, but the fact still remains, it is not a level playing field when you have both union controlled clubs and privately owned clubs all playing in the same competition.

How do you know this? How do you know that Ulster, or Leinster, wouldn't get big money men coming in to buy the clubs, and splash out on big names, and be hugely successful? You don't know.

LD you wouldn't know a decent debate if it were to slap you in the face. Get a grip!!

Munchkin wrote:Are you saying that the Provinces don't earn their crust?

No I am not saying that, players like SOB, Jamie Heaslip, Rory Best and Simon Zebo do not grow on trees.

Munchkin wrote:We do put all the effort into finding talent, develop that talent, supply that talent to the national team. We do also promote the game, bring in fans. Fans that will support Ireland. We do also earn money for whatever competitions we enter.

Yes I understand all that, but because your provinces are union controlled, you get to have a share of the money the IRFU make from the international side which is a hell of a lot more. You get all that without the risk of anything going up the creek, which is a privilege private owners do not get to enjoy. Thus it creates an uneven playing field.

And again may I point out that these rich owners are not putting g themselves in great risk of loosing anything apart from a play thing. The clubs at a lot more risk than the owner

carpet baboon wrote:Look how well the PRL sanctions worked

Yes I know, that is why we need it to be policed properly otherwise it will not work.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Bruce Craig, Nigel Wray, Lackie Laurenzetti, Michelin, etc. etc. have a lot more money than any of the Rugby Unions.

Yes I agree, but it's their money, out of their own back pockets, they as individuals will lose out if it all goes horribly wrong.

That scenario will not happen with union controlled clubs. There is no one person with the sword of damocles hanging over them. Like I said above perhaps a FIFA fair play initiative could be brought into rugby, with sanctions brought in to punish those who do not comply.

It's always someones money. So you're saying that you prefer the money men using clubs as 'playthings', and then possibly dropping them if those playthings are not fun any more. Better that than Unions who see the clubs as more than 'playthings', and will not drop them out of boredom, etc, etc, but who have a genuine interest in the clubs, and in the growth of rugby, in their respective nations? Strange thinking.

Munchkin wrote:How do you know this? How do you know that Ulster, or Leinster, wouldn't get big money men coming in to buy the clubs, and splash out on big names, and be hugely successful? You don't know.

Yep I would agree with this, but at least if if big money men were to take the provinces over as a privately owned concern, at least it would be a level playing field. 

But we would still need to put something in place to only allow clubs to spend what they can generate  their selves.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Are you saying that the Provinces don't earn their crust?

No I am not saying that, players like SOB, Jamie Heaslip, Rory Best and Simon Zebo do not grow on trees.

Munchkin wrote:We do put all the effort into finding talent, develop that talent, supply that talent to the national team. We do also promote the game, bring in fans. Fans that will support Ireland. We do also earn money for whatever competitions we enter.

Yes I understand all that, but because your provinces are union controlled, you get to have a share of the money the IRFU make from the international side which is a hell of a lot more. You get all that without the risk of anything going up the creek, which is a privilege private owners do not get to enjoy. Thus it creates an uneven playing field.

It's a myth to think that we get a hell of a lot more. We don't. Do a comparison of the WRU and the IRFU. Check out money coming in from the Provinces and Regions, and the monies they each receive from their Unions, in return. It isn't a big difference.

Pete330v2 wrote:LD you wouldn't know a decent debate if it were to slap you in the face. Get a grip!!

Yet here I am debating with others nicely without descending into the rubbish that you are throwing around.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:How do you know this? How do you know that Ulster, or Leinster, wouldn't get big money men coming in to buy the clubs, and splash out on big names, and be hugely successful? You don't know.

Yep I would agree with this, but at least if if big money men were to take the provinces over as a privately owned concern, at least it would be a level playing field. 

But we would still need to put something in place to only allow clubs to spend what they can generate  their selves.

But that creates all sorts of problems. It wouldn't create a level playing field. It would do the opposite. The most effective way to create a level playing field is for all clubs to be Union owned, and for each Union to come to an agreement on spending, foreign imports, etc.

Which wouldn't happen.

I think this tread shows that all unions clubs whatever, have some good some bad, whichever way it's done. But one thing is sure that no middle ground will be found any time soon

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Are you saying that the Provinces don't earn their crust?

No I am not saying that, players like SOB, Jamie Heaslip, Rory Best and Simon Zebo do not grow on trees.

Munchkin wrote:We do put all the effort into finding talent, develop that talent, supply that talent to the national team. We do also promote the game, bring in fans. Fans that will support Ireland. We do also earn money for whatever competitions we enter.

Yes I understand all that, but because your provinces are union controlled, you get to have a share of the money the IRFU make from the international side which is a hell of a lot more. You get all that without the risk of anything going up the creek, which is a privilege private owners do not get to enjoy. Thus it creates an uneven playing field.

It's a myth to think that we get a hell of a lot more. We don't. Do a comparison of the WRU and the IRFU. Check out money coming in from the Provinces and Regions, and the monies they each receive from their Unions, in return. It isn't a big difference.

According to somebody on here, last week, I cannot remember who it was, but they told me that the IRFU fund the provinces to the tune of 50%, so that means the provinces get twice what they make themselves.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which wouldn't happen.

Well, it's not going to happen now. That horse has bolted. It is the ideal though.

carpet baboon wrote:I think this tread shows that all unions clubs whatever, have some good some bad, whichever way it's done. But one thing is sure that no middle ground will be found any time soon

Yes I agree with this, but at least we can see the uneven playing field that is created when you have privately owned teams competing with union controlled teams. 

The only way around this would be to have a fair play system where if any team breaks it they get sanctioned.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Are you saying that the Provinces don't earn their crust?

No I am not saying that, players like SOB, Jamie Heaslip, Rory Best and Simon Zebo do not grow on trees.

Munchkin wrote:We do put all the effort into finding talent, develop that talent, supply that talent to the national team. We do also promote the game, bring in fans. Fans that will support Ireland. We do also earn money for whatever competitions we enter.

Yes I understand all that, but because your provinces are union controlled, you get to have a share of the money the IRFU make from the international side which is a hell of a lot more. You get all that without the risk of anything going up the creek, which is a privilege private owners do not get to enjoy. Thus it creates an uneven playing field.

It's a myth to think that we get a hell of a lot more. We don't. Do a comparison of the WRU and the IRFU. Check out money coming in from the Provinces and Regions, and the monies they each receive from their Unions, in return. It isn't a big difference.

According to somebody on here, last week, I cannot remember who it was, but they told me that the IRFU fund the provinces to the tune of 50%, so that means the provinces get twice what they make themselves.

I'm not sure we get as much as that, but do the comparison I suggest, and you will find the difference really isn't that much.

Is this:

An Ireland vs Wales
Celts vs PRL
Or Anglo/Celts vs French

debate?

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I think this tread shows that all unions clubs whatever, have some good some bad, whichever way it's done. But one thing is sure that no middle ground will be found any time soon

Yes I agree with this, but at least we can see the uneven playing field that is created when you have privately owned teams competing with union controlled teams. 

The only way around this would be to have a fair play system where if any team breaks it they get sanctioned.

I would suggest that the uneven playing field is created by the likes of Toulon and Sarries. Some private owners couldn't give a toss about playing by the rules, and certainly have no regard for 'even playing fields'.

I am sure it was you who said it munchkin.

Munchkin wrote:I would suggest that the uneven playing field is created by the likes of Toulon and Sarries. Some private owners couldn't give a toss about playing by the rules, and certainly have no regard for 'even playing fields'.

That is why if this new league is to work, we need an independent committee in charge, people from every organisation, so with that at least there will be some sort of policing going on.

LondonTiger wrote:Is this:

An Ireland vs Wales
Celts vs PRL
Or Anglo/Celts vs French

debate?

For me it is a debate where we are discussing the problems when union controlled clubs compete in the same competitions as privately owned clubs. No nationalities needed, just two sides of a debate.

Thought it was teams spending money beyond their natural means vs those that don't?

Yes, that as well 7&1/2.

Nothing to do with nationalities and the what not.

Yeah most spend more I'd have thought.

LordDowlais wrote:According to somebody on here, last week, I cannot remember who it was, but they told me that the IRFU fund the provinces to the tune of 50%, so that means the provinces get twice what they make themselves.

That would have been Phil who moulds the facts to suit his argument.

It was from the figures that Philip Browne mentioned, that the Provinces cost about 12m to run and they generate 6m from tickets and sponsorship etc and the IRFU puts in about 6-7m on top of that. What Phil forgot to mention when saying the IRFU provide 50% was that figure includes the revenue from the ERCC and Pro 12 which is paid to the IRFU and not the provinces. It could also include the money from central contracts but it may not. The money also includes funding for the local game within the individual provinces which is the provincial branchs job to do.

marty2086 wrote:That would have been Phil who moulds the facts to suit his argument.

No it was not phillBB, I am sure it was munchkin.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That would have been Phil who moulds the facts to suit his argument.

No it was not phillBB, I am sure it was munchkin.

Can you post what I was supposed to have said here?

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Bruce Craig, Nigel Wray, Lackie Laurenzetti, Michelin, etc. etc. have a lot more money than any of the Rugby Unions.

Yes I agree, but it's their money, out of their own back pockets, they as individuals will lose out if it all goes horribly wrong.

That scenario will not happen with union controlled clubs. There is no one person with the sword of damocles hanging over them. Like I said above perhaps a FIFA fair play initiative could be brought into rugby, with sanctions brought in to punish those who do not comply.

It's always someones money. So you're saying that you prefer the money men using clubs as 'playthings', and then possibly dropping them if those playthings are not fun any more. Better that than Unions who see the clubs as more than 'playthings', and will not drop them out of boredom, etc, etc, but who have a genuine interest in the clubs, and in the growth of rugby, in their respective nations? Strange thinking.

+1
Its these owners with too much money who are destroying the whole thing. At least the Union clubs will live within their means and will not push wage levels like the French and English club are doing. For example, in general, the IRFU only try and keep our own.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That would have been Phil who moulds the facts to suit his argument.

No it was not phillBB, I am sure it was munchkin.

It was neither so I was wrong about Phil on this occasion

'"We put money in to each province in terms of players and technical staff. The Union is putting in at least 50% in terms of turnover into each of the provinces.”

It was a quote from Philip Browne

Sorry a member called bumble mentioned it, and munchkin agreed.

https://www.606v2.com/t62471p50-irfu-investment-into-its-branches

Sin é wrote:Its these owners with too much money who are destroying the whole thing. At least the Union clubs will live within their means and will not push wage levels like the French and English club are doing. For example, in general, the IRFU only try and keep our own.

You are wrong though, the union clubs DO NOT live within their means, they are getting extra money off the union. Although I do agree that the rich owners are destroying things.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its these owners with too much money who are destroying the whole thing. At least the Union clubs will live within their means and will not push wage levels like the French and English club are doing. For example, in general, the IRFU only try and keep our own.

You are wrong though, the union clubs DO NOT live within their means, they are getting extra money off the union. Although I do agree that the rich owners are destroying things.

And if they were privately owned they'd get the money from the owners there

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry a member called bumble mentioned it, and munchkin agreed.

https://www.606v2.com/t62471p50-irfu-investment-into-its-branches

You can see that my replies were a bit tongue in cheek, can't you? I was agreeing with Browne, but also hinting that it isn't as black and white as that.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its these owners with too much money who are destroying the whole thing. At least the Union clubs will live within their means and will not push wage levels like the French and English club are doing. For example, in general, the IRFU only try and keep our own.

You are wrong though, the union clubs DO NOT live within their means, they are getting extra money off the union. Although I do agree that the rich owners are destroying things.

And if they were privately owned they'd get the money from the owners there

Only off the one's who can afford it. But that's what makes it an uneven playing field. That is why there should be some sort of fair play system put in place, or salary cap.

We pretty much do live within our means. The money we get invested in us from the Union- who makes the Union that money? The players who play for Ireland. Who develops the players? The provinces develop them as professionals, the schools and clubs develop them as amateurs. Where does the money earned by the Union go back to? It goes back to the provinces and to the grassroots. It's an ecosystem.

The external things that come into this ecosystem are foreign players who have been developed in coaching structures outside Ireland (i.e. in New Zealand, South Africa, England etc.) and outside investment by wealthy individuals- not sponsorship, investment. The latter may well exist in terms of contract top-ups and I think the IRFU is being forced to look for more 'investors'. I would love it if we didn't need these things to remain competitive with the French and English clubs. I would love it if it was a case of fifteen players from my home province lining up against fifteen players from a specific region in England, Wales or France. Thats not the way rugby is, and I guess that it was inevitable that that would happen with the onset of professionalism.

If we were a privately owned concern we would be worse off, but we would also not have any incentive to develop homegrown players. We would need to try and sign/poach even more players from elsewhere. Why is a system which incentivises us to invest in the Academy and grassroots a bad system?

I appreciate that us signing someone like Piutau is bad for World Rugby because it hurts NZ rugby and if their big name players leave it damages Super Rugby and the All Blacks. What I don't get is why a team that signs 2 or 3 of these players and tries to develop a homegrown squad to support them is worse than a team that signs 15 or 20 of these players and doesn't do as much for the grassroots.

Not disagreeing with much of that Notch, except the living within your means bit. It's not a level playing field, rich owners spend more on their clubs than what the clubs can earn, and the IRFU/SRU/IRFU spend more on the provinces/clubs than what they can earn. 

If each club/province/region was made to only operate within their means, then that would be a level playing field.