Marler to Face World Rugby Hearing

by Allty Wed 23 Mar 2016, 7:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

From BBC

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35887510

by TJ Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:07 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
TJ wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You have at least proven my suspicions that you are on the wind up, either that or your just plain dumb.

The Roma and the Irish Travellers are different ethnicities but are both referred to under UK law as Gypsies, I can only assume you are not reading any of the links or passages that confirm that. Your definition of racism makes no sense whatsoever, an ethnic majority can be the victims of racism after all it was you yourself who mentioned the Apartheid.

Ah - you now accept that Roma and Irish travellers are not the same ethnicity. Well done. Baby steps and all that. A few posts ago you were claiming they were. So as Gypsy and Roma are synonyms how can Irish travellers be gypsies?

I use the widely accepted definition of racism

enough - time you invoked hatterslys law

I'd like you to point out where I said that the Roma and Irish Travellers are the same ethnicity, I said correctly that both are referred to as Gypsies due to their nomadic lifestyle. Gypsy and Roma are not synonyms at all, I can guarantee you know nobody from either heritage.

Well there you are wrong. I do.

by TJ Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:18 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

I'd like you to point out where I said that the Roma and Irish Travellers are the same ethnicity, I said correctly that both are referred to as Gypsies due to their nomadic lifestyle. Gypsy and Roma are not synonyms at all, I can guarantee you know nobody from either heritage.

Apologies - it wasn't quite what you said. You are still insisting Irishtravellers are gypsys when they are not but in multiple threads and posters I got confused with who said what. Your confusion over what the word gypsy actually means led to my confusion. So I am happy to put the record straight on that, that you said Irish travelers and Roma are the same peoples - you did not - but thats about your lack of understanding of what the word gypsy means.

Gypsy refers to and only to the Roma people. Just because some folk use this word "gypsy" wrongly does not mean the meaning of the word has altered.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:23 pm

TJ wrote:OMG

Steady on. You may offend any holy rollers on this forum.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:26 pm

Irish Travellers are under UK Law considered to be Gypsies, it is not a term that refers only to the Roma. It is a term used to refer to any Nomadic people.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:04 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
Fanster wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:I do not wan't to get involved in this racists argument. Was it a racis comment was it not.

The question i would like to ask any one in the know is. Just what punishment they, ( World Rugby ) can impose on MARLER?

And is this going in a dangerous way, because it does seem that if a white man call a coloured man a ( Name ) the white man is called a racist. However i have noticed that if a coloured man calls a white man a ( Name ) it seems to be excepted.

So whatever happens to Marler. it should happen to any one else who calls any one, any thing.

I am all for Equal rights and all. But that is the problem the ( EQUAL ) bit.

Thats a very measured response, the answer is I don't think anyone knows exactly what probably will, or even what potentially could happen.

I think we're all hoping for a very minor 2 weeks, mostly for the ishandling of the event by most, however I fear he may be made an example of.

Well i have just read on the bbc sport site that Marler will face World Rugby on the 5th of April.

I guess now a date is set they ( World Rugby ) will have too justify over riding the 6ns board.

Like you Fansta i think they will come down on him hard.

I think they'll come down on him hard as well. Shame as I don't think it merits a long ban, minimum side of things for me, but the show they're creating is to the 6Ns ie follow your own blooming rules.

by Jimpy Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:22 am

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:18 am

as i mentioned a few days ago, if World Rugby went ahead with charging Marler it would open up a whole can of worms as there's no difference between being described as an English **** or a Gypsy boy...except one is ruder...and i have no doubt that english players get regularly abused in rugby matches and in fact expect it.

and then reports of the "posh english ****" slur surface....

i welcome this development if World Rugby are going to be consistent, as England players are without doubt the most abused internationally. will be good to see offenders yellow or red-carded.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:23 am

Yup, if they are caught. I suppose in general it's the difference between footballers swearing on the pitch and Rooney swearing down the camera.

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:32 am

if World rugby sanctions Marler, it wont just be about whats heard on the mic, it will have to be about what the referees and touch judges hear also.

commentators are constantly apologising for bad language picked up by the mic but there's no punishment for swearing in rugby per se. if there's to be a punishment for gypsy boy, then it must apply whether heard on mic or not.

and so the can of worms gets opened....because presumably if a ref overhears something equivalent to gypsy boy, or worse, its an instant red card....

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:39 am

Yup, true. Don't mind a can of worms being opened though, he shouldn't have said it, he knows it, the 6Ns acknowledged it and failed to apply their rules on the matter. Surely the can of worms currently is that anyone can use 'heat of the moment' to get away with practically anything?

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:45 am

do we as fans want the outcome of games determined by whether a ref correctly overhears sledging? isnt it bad enough watching top players like sexton rolling around trying to fake a head injury when he sees the ref looking his way? are they going to tell tales on each other and say hey thats what he said to me and i want you to send him off?

i dont.

let them play rugby i say.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:46 am

I don't mind a bit of sledging if the player feels the need to do it, but racist abuse is too much for me.

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:51 am

samson lee doesnt feel racially abused. he said so.

context is everything. take things out of context and all one can do is apply a law. thats the can of worms.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:57 am

Context is everything yes, Lee seemed really pleased with the comment at the time didn't he? Marler obviously wasn't using it as sledging here was he, cos if he was he was using race in a way against the rules? He also didn't see the error of his ways and apologise, taking responsibility? And the 6Ns didn't acknowledge it was not the sort of thing we want to hear on a rugby pitch?

As it is, the player, his union and the 6Ns comittee (or whatever they were calling themselves) all say he was in the wrong, the only debate for World Rugby is should the minimum punishment have been ignored as heat of the moment is an appropriate excuse? I'd suggest it isn't, what about you?

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:22 pm

racial abuse is a very specific concept. you mentioned it. World Rugby, samson lee, and the 6N did not.

as to the charge of misconduct or a breach of code, which is what World Rugby have actually said, then yes hes probably guilty. as is whoever called marler a posh english c***.

if it were racial abuse the police would be required to investigate.

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:31 pm

quinsforever wrote:samson lee doesnt feel racially abused. he said so.

Why are people STILL saying this? Whether he does or not has absolutely no bearing.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:50 pm

Maybe they should then, as he was.

by Jimpy Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:52 pm

I see the car park at the hearing is already filling up and theft in the local area is up 80%

Marler to Face World Rugby Hearing - Page 7 Images10

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:56 pm

Jimpy wrote:I see the car park at the hearing is already filling up and theft in the local area is up 80%

Do you think that's a nice thing to post?

Do you think it's funny?

Do you think that your mindset is completely out of touch with society and it's boundaries?

Do you care?

by GunsGerms Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind a bit of sledging if the player feels the need to do it, but racist abuse is too much for me.

I agree. Its a real eye opener how many England fans seem to think this is ok. Wasn't expecting that to be honest.

by wrfc1980 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:15 pm

But its ok the other way? In my book neither the comment made to Lee, nor the comment made to Marler was racist. However, it seems that for some on here only Marlers comments are out of order but its fine for one of the Welsh players to abuse Marler using race as the context. They are either both racist (which I don't agree is the case) or neither of them are.

by Jimpy Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:18 pm

bumble wrote:
Jimpy wrote:I see the car park at the hearing is already filling up and theft in the local area is up 80%

Do you think that's a nice thing to post?

Do you think it's funny?

Do you think that your mindset is completely out of touch with society and it's boundaries?

Do you care?

Certainly not about what you think.

by PenfroPete Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:25 pm

Has anyone's opinion been changed be the 'debate' on here ?

Marler has been heard using the comment "Gypsy boy" and admitted it (and allegedly "get back to your caravan")

On the other hand we have allegations from one person (who was not on the field) regarding comments supposedly made by an un-named Welsh player. These allegations only surfaced after World Rugby announced they would be looking into the 6 Nations committee judgement. Headscratch

If the case is proven against the Welsh player I would expect a ban. Whether they are racist or not is irrelevant to me, IMO there's no place for either of these comments

by **RiscaGame** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:26 pm

[quote="quinsforever] as is whoever ALLEGEDLY called marler a posh english c***
.[/quote]

Edited that for you. Yet to see any evidence of this, so forgive me if I don't take your gaffer's word seriously some three weeks or so after the incident.

by **RiscaGame** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:28 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:But its ok the other way? In my book neither the comment made to Lee, nor the comment made to Marler was racist. However, it seems that for some on here only Marlers comments are out of order but its fine for one of the Welsh players to abuse Marler using race as the context. They are either both racist (which I don't agree is the case) or neither of them are.

There's a little minor detail of there being no evidence of the abuse Marler "suffered". Just a tiny detail though.

by wrfc1980 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:32 pm

I doubt the highly respected manager of a top premiership club and soon to manager the Italian international team would lie. The fact it has been said should surely warrant an investigation though don't you think? Or because its an English player on the end of it do you think it should be swept under the carpet?

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:34 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:I doubt the highly respected manager of a top premiership club and soon to manager the Italian international team would lie. The fact it has been said should surely warrant an investigation though don't you think? Or because its an English player on the end of it do you think it should be swept under the carpet?

If the 6Nations didn't think a player shouting racist abuse warranted an investigation, I'd be surprised if they investigated this.

But they should. Yes. And any evidence Marler / O'Shea have of who the culprit(s) are should be given. I'd like to read the formal hearing notes for that one.

by HammerofThunor Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:34 pm

PenfroPete wrote:Has anyone's opinion been changed be the 'debate' on here ?

Marler has been heard using the comment "Gypsy boy" and admitted it (and allegedly "get back to your caravan")

On the other hand we have allegations from one person (who was not on the field) regarding comments supposedly made by an un-named Welsh player. These allegations only surfaced after World Rugby announced they would be looking into the 6 Nations committee judgement.

If the case is proven against the Welsh player I would expect a ban. Whether they are racist or not is irrelevant to me, IMO there's no place for either of these comments

My opinion at the start was it was a racially related insult and therefore should have been cited (it wasn't, the 6N broke protocol by reviewing a non-cited incident), reviewed, and then I would have expected the minimum ban possible (because I can't imagine anything that would be lesser) so 2 weeks. I shy away from the term 'abuse' as it has different meaning to me than perhaps others. But it was definitely meant in an insulting way.

On the other side, if we applied our current approach to the past, Phil Bennett would have done for 'inciting racial hatred' Smile

by **RiscaGame** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:45 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:I doubt the highly respected manager of a top premiership club and soon to manager the Italian international team would lie. The fact it has been said should surely warrant an investigation though don't you think? Or because its an English player on the end of it do you think it should be swept under the carpet?

Oh I'm sure it'll be a lengthy investigation too, with no proof.

by PenfroPete Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
On the other side, if we applied our current approach to the past, Phil Bennett would have done for 'inciting racial hatred'

Ever single word was true though Wink

by Poorfour Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:49 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:But its ok the other way? In my book neither the comment made to Lee, nor the comment made to Marler was racist. However, it seems that for some on here only Marlers comments are out of order but its fine for one of the Welsh players to abuse Marler using race as the context. They are either both racist (which I don't agree is the case) or neither of them are.

There's a little minor detail of ~~there being~~ no evidence having been shared yet of the abuse Marler "suffered". Just a tiny detail though.

Fixed that for you. It's a big assumption to say that there's no evidence. We may not have seen it but I think it's pretty likely that at least one other player will be prepared to corroborate what was said, and I also think it's unlikely that COS would have mentioned it without being sure that Marler could support it in the hearing.

And if evidence were to emerge, how would that change your opinion?

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:53 pm

Poorfour wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:But its ok the other way? In my book neither the comment made to Lee, nor the comment made to Marler was racist. However, it seems that for some on here only Marlers comments are out of order but its fine for one of the Welsh players to abuse Marler using race as the context. They are either both racist (which I don't agree is the case) or neither of them are.

There's a little minor detail of ~~there being~~ no evidence having been shared yet of the abuse Marler "suffered". Just a tiny detail though.

Fixed that for you. It's a big assumption to say that there's no evidence. We may not have seen it but I think it's pretty likely that at least one other player will be prepared to corroborate what was said, and I also think it's unlikely that COS would have mentioned it without being sure that Marler could support it in the hearing.

How would Marler support it? It would just be anecdotal. Not like the video of him telling someone to "go back to your caravan, gypsy boy"

Having said that, I now fully expect this flimsy mitigating factor to chop down a 20 week ban to 1 week.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:58 pm

You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:59 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind a bit of sledging if the player feels the need to do it, but racist abuse is too much for me.

I agree. Its a real eye opener how many England fans seem to think this is ok. Wasn't expecting that to be honest.

i dont think anyone is saying its ok. lots of people are debating how offensive something was and to whom. which is absolutely legitimate. because all offenses are not equal.

and also worried about PC influencing future rugby matches because someone says something stupid. World Rugby are backing referees and TMOs into a corner. whatever marler gets, will become automatic for anyone heard calling someone a posh english tw*t. For example. to be honest this is going to benefit england going forwards more than any other country, but i dont think its a good development for rugby generally.

i'd rather they stop using onfield mics.

by **RiscaGame** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:00 pm

Poorfour wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:But its ok the other way? In my book neither the comment made to Lee, nor the comment made to Marler was racist. However, it seems that for some on here only Marlers comments are out of order but its fine for one of the Welsh players to abuse Marler using race as the context. They are either both racist (which I don't agree is the case) or neither of them are.

There's a little minor detail of ~~there being~~ no evidence having been shared yet of the abuse Marler "suffered". Just a tiny detail though.

Fixed that for you. It's a big assumption to say that there's no evidence. We may not have seen it but I think it's pretty likely that at least one other player will be prepared to corroborate what was said, and I also think it's unlikely that COS would have mentioned it without being sure that Marler could support it in the hearing.

And if evidence were to emerge, how would that change your opinion?

I'd gladly say that I'd want the Welsh player to suffer similar fate to Marler. Though given that it took three or so weeks to come to light and that Eddie Jones didn't mention it when he was rambling on about Arthur and Martha, I think it's a fairly safe bet there's no evidence. If it comes down to a player backing Marler up, I'm sure there's more than one Welsh player too who can say that no abuse of Marler took place.

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:01 pm

a witness cannot prove something wasnt said....only that it was...just saying

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

Well the maximum is 52 weeks.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:04 pm

bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

Well the maximum is 52 weeks.

That is not an answer. Yes or No will suffice.

by wrfc1980 Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:04 pm

Surely there should also be an investigation into the Welsh teammate of Lee who was quoted on Wales online saying they used to take the mick of of lee due to his heritage and that he doesn't smell so bad now, used in the context of his gypsy heritage?

by Hoonercat Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:05 pm

TJ wrote:
bumble wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:

That's not how the law works at all, it does differentiate between being an ethnic majority or an ethnic minority, it is illegal to make derogatory comments to someone because they are English or Welsh just like it is they are a Gypsy or Pakistani.

Absolutely. And if anyone else is found guilty of doing so, then it shouldn't just be Marler that gets a long ban.

Nonsense. Just utter nonsense. Its the context that makes it racist or not. And remeber - I am English living in Scotland - I understand anti english racism being on the receiving end of it years ago - and this statement whilst and unpleasant insult is not racist. Context is the key which many of you seem to be unable to understand

From Munchkin's link wrote:Elen Humphreys, 25, of Garndolbenmaen, near Porthmadog, pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment, after she branded Angela Payne, who had an affair with her father, an “English cow.”
The court in Prestatyn in North Wales heard that Humphreys levelled the insult at Ms Payne when she went to her house in Rhyl to collect some of her father's property and told her : "Leave well alone, you English cow".

by **LondonTiger** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:06 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Surely there should also be an investigation into the Welsh teammate of Lee who was quoted on Wales online saying they used to take the mick of of lee due to his heritage and that he doesn't smell so bad now, used in the context of his gypsy heritage?

No. Very different scenarios.

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

Well the maximum is 52 weeks.

That is not an answer. Yes or No will suffice.

Yes, throw the book at him.

by quinsforever Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:06 pm

whatever World Rugby hand out, they will be forced to do the same in future. so i would imagine they would want to be careful.

out of interest, which is worse, punching someone in the face or calling them a gypsy boy? or posh english whatever?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:08 pm

bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

Well the maximum is 52 weeks.

That is not an answer. Yes or No will suffice.

Yes, throw the book at him.

Thanks for answering. I may now put context to all your posts on this subject.

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
bumble wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:You believe Marler's actions warranted a 20 week ban?

Well the maximum is 52 weeks.

That is not an answer. Yes or No will suffice.

Yes, throw the book at him.

Thanks for answering. I may now put context to all your posts on this subject.

Yup. Context is everything.

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:13 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Surely there should also be an investigation into the Welsh teammate of Lee who was quoted on Wales online saying they used to take the mick of of lee due to his heritage and that he doesn't smell so bad now, used in the context of his gypsy heritage?

Which bit of that article said they used to take the mick out of him due to his Gypsy heritage?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:23 pm

bumble wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Surely there should also be an investigation into the Welsh teammate of Lee who was quoted on Wales online saying they used to take the mick of of lee due to his heritage and that he doesn't smell so bad now, used in the context of his gypsy heritage?

Which bit of that article said they used to take the mick out of him due to his Gypsy heritage?

I do hope this isn't true. The absolute last thing that Lee, the victim in all of this, will want is a full scale investigation of the Welsh squad with bans being handed out that could potentially wreck the tour to New Zealand.

by Cyril Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:31 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:On the other side, if we applied our current approach to the past, Phil Bennett would have done for 'inciting racial hatred'

The first thing I thought of when the Marler incident came to light was this. It's ok though, Bennett's speech was 'rousing' and 'from the heart' so no harm done.

by PenfroPete Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:37 pm

Cyril wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:On the other side, if we applied our current approach to the past, Phil Bennett would have done for 'inciting racial hatred'
The first thing I thought of when the Marler incident came to light was this. It's ok though, Bennett's speech was 'rousing' and 'from the heart' so no harm done.

Think you'll find he hadn't prepared anything Cyril - it was all in the heat of the moment thumbsup

by bumble Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:42 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Surely there should also be an investigation into the Welsh teammate of Lee who was quoted on Wales online saying they used to take the mick of of lee due to his heritage and that he doesn't smell so bad now, used in the context of his gypsy heritage?

Which bit of that article said they used to take the mick out of him due to his Gypsy heritage?

I do hope this isn't true. The absolute last thing that Lee, the victim in all of this, will want is a full scale investigation of the Welsh squad with bans being handed out that could potentially wreck the tour to New Zealand.

Devastating.

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