Joe Marler Punishment

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What is your opinion on it?

Hoonercat wrote:

Yet n***a is generally not viewed as a derogatory term when written by one black person to another (social media for example) whereas n****r is. Apart from on 606. Like I said, agree to disagree, can't be bothered arguing the point.

Its the same word no matter how its written - its the context that makes it offensive or not. As you seem to say but not understand

person of African descent (that's spelt with an ER on the end)

HI EVERYONE I'M RACIST (with an A on the end)

Interesting

N!gga Please!

As a moderator, I shouldn't be racist. But to be fair, it's only the Greeks I have it in for.

They invented gayness.

Notch wrote:As a moderator, I shouldn't be racist. But to be fair, it's only the Greeks I have it in for.

They invented gayness.

And the screw.

TJ wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

Yet n***a is generally not viewed as a derogatory term when written by one black person to another (social media for example) whereas n****r is. Apart from on 606. Like I said, agree to disagree, can't be bothered arguing the point.

Its the same word no matter how its written - its the context that makes it offensive or not.  As you seem to say but not understand

I'm sure you're right*, being an Englishman living in Scotland, and all those black American teens have got it wrong when they use it as a term of endearment. Don't forget to remind them how they should always stand up to oppression while telling them they're not intelligent enough to understand a word that they themselves have evolved.

*Or should I say write, as they're both pronounced the same?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Notch wrote:As a moderator, I shouldn't be racist. But to be fair, it's only the Greeks I have it in for.

They invented gayness.

And the screw.

Behave!

Hoonercat wrote:

TJ wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

Yet n***a is generally not viewed as a derogatory term when written by one black person to another (social media for example) whereas n****r is. Apart from on 606. Like I said, agree to disagree, can't be bothered arguing the point.

Its the same word no matter how its written - its the context that makes it offensive or not.  As you seem to say but not understand

I'm sure you're right*, being an Englishman living in Scotland, and all those black American teens have got it wrong when they use it as a term of endearment. Don't forget to remind them how they should always stand up to oppression while telling them they're not intelligent enough to understand a word that they themselves have evolved.

*Or should I say write, as they're both pronounced the same?

Whats that wooshing noise - oh I know - its the point flying over your head.  Those black dudes are reclaiming the word for their own use.  Its a common way of fighting back against pejorative language.  
Those american teens are not racist, using the same word in other situations can be - that the point you seem unable to understand - context is all when it comes to racist language.  the word n***** is not racist used between two black dudes in that context, it is when its used in other contexts.

And as for the claim that spelling it phonetically makes it a differnt word - what planet are you on?  Its the same word.Look it up on wiki for an explanation that shows how wrong you are.
"Black listeners often react to the term differently, depending on whether it is used by white speakers or by black speakers. In the former case, it is regularly understood as insensitive or insulting; in the latter, it may carry notes of in-group disparagement, and is often understood as neutral or affectionate, a possible instance of reappropriation."
"Among the black community, the slur N***er is almost always rendered as N***A, representing the pronunciation of the word in African American Vernacular English. This usage has been popularized by the rap and hip-hop music cultures and is used as part of an in-group lexicon and speech. It is not necessarily derogatory and, when used among black people, the word is often used to mean homie or friend"

Oh - and look up reappropriation of pejorative terms as well - you might just learn and understand a little better.
"In sociology and cultural studies, reappropriation or reclamation is the cultural process by which a group reclaims terms or artifacts that were previously used in a way disparaging of that group."

this is what has happened with the N word started by folk such as Richard Pryor way back when

And it gets more complicated when other (black Americans) in this case stand up and say the use of the word is still inappropriate due to the history associated with it etc. You can see similar in the Tottenhams use of Jew Army. Spurs are closely associated with the Jewish community, it's not meant to offend, yet many fans who sing it aren't Jewish and many other fans have spoken up to say they do find it racist. Not a simple subject.

And I didn't use Jew Army, so the use of the word I did use can obviously be seen as racist.

TJ wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

TJ wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

Yet n***a is generally not viewed as a derogatory term when written by one black person to another (social media for example) whereas n****r is. Apart from on 606. Like I said, agree to disagree, can't be bothered arguing the point.

Its the same word no matter how its written - its the context that makes it offensive or not.  As you seem to say but not understand

I'm sure you're right*, being an Englishman living in Scotland, and all those black American teens have got it wrong when they use it as a term of endearment. Don't forget to remind them how they should always stand up to oppression while telling them they're not intelligent enough to understand a word that they themselves have evolved.

*Or should I say write, as they're both pronounced the same?

Whats that wooshing noise - oh I know - its the point flying over your head.  Those black dudes are reclaiming the word for their own use.  Its a common way of fighting back against pejorative language.  
Those american teens are not racist, using the same word in other situations can be - that the point you seem unable to understand - context is all when it comes to racist language.  the word n***** is not racist used between two black dudes in that context, it is when its used in other contexts.

And as for the claim that spelling it phonetically makes it a differnt word - what planet are you on?  Its the same word.Look it up on wiki for an explanation that shows how wrong you are.
"Black listeners often react to the term differently, depending on whether it is used by white speakers or by black speakers. In the former case, it is regularly understood as insensitive or insulting; in the latter, it may carry notes of in-group disparagement, and is often understood as neutral or affectionate, a possible instance of reappropriation."
"Among the black community, the slur N***er is almost always rendered as N***A, representing the pronunciation of the word in African American Vernacular English. This usage has been popularized by the rap and hip-hop music cultures and is used as part of an in-group lexicon and speech. It is not necessarily derogatory and, when used among black people, the word is often used to mean homie or friend"

I have not said those American teens are racist, I have argued that they are 2 different words with 2 different meanings. The slight problem with your above examples is that they mean absolutely nothing to the average American black teen when compared to Tupac's assessment

Tupac wrote:Ni*****rs was the ones on the rope, hanging off the thing; n***as is the ones with gold ropes, hanging out at clubs.

I'm sure they'll take more notice of Wiki and an Englishman in Scotland.

Can we still keep calling the Aussies convicts?

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Can we still keep calling the Aussies convicts?

Why not? Of course we English are still Pommie Basta*ds............

yappysnap wrote:Cheers Stevan.

That's what we needed, lots of threads AND a pole on it...

Welcome to the modern world!

Would that be a telephone pole or someone from Poland?

Couldn't help notice Tyson Fury's twitter name yesterday - Gypsy King

Interesting piece in the Rugby Paper today saying Samson Lee's Wales team-mates nickname for him is similar to what Marler said. As certain posters have been saying for weeks that calling someone names to do with their ethnicity isn't banter but racist abuse, I wonder if those posters (a lot of them Welsh) will call for the WRU to punish them and for World Rugby to give them all a 2 week ban and £20,000 fine? Thought not.

You just don't understand simple poinnts pheonix.

lostinwales wrote:Couldn't help notice Tyson Fury's twitter name yesterday - Gypsy King

I believe this has been mentioned already but many black people commonly refer to themselves and each other using the N word (spelling aside, it's the same basic reference). The commonly cited mistake is to assume the usage is defused to the point white people can also use the N word without the original pejorative attachment being implied. That's because the context is different when used by a member of a group who historically used the term oppressively than by individuals who only employ the term as an expression of common background.

There's no reason the same can't apply to travelers. It may not be as extreme as the black-white example but it's the same principle: different when used within the group than when coming from without.

That said, I'm glad the saga's over with. Penalty is roughly proportionate to what I was expecting. I only hope the 6N can deal with these matters themselves in future.

In the interests of clarity and fairness, sometimes what needs to be said needs to be said.  I haven't read all of the above comments so maybe what I'm about to allude to has already been factored in, but I read a very interesting article in the Sunday Independent just a half hour or so ago. And a number of points made in it, if confirmed, really does outline the hypocrisy that can often inform our discussions on race, racism and/or cultural insults.  Indeed, they can often inform the hypocrisy of the official adjudication process too.

The article is by ex-Ireland international Neil Francis (caulm down my Ulster friends!  Caulm down! )  Anyway, through much of the piece he asserts that he was always much more hurt by the physical boxes to the nose or face than he ever was overly concerned with the taunts of 'Paddy' etc that might cry out in the middle of a scrum.  He says rugby and sport in general is a substitute for bloody tribal war and when at it most heated (and best) there will always be coughs and screams of one side expressing superiority to another side through insults and put-downs.... and that is a natural in a sport where superiority is the goal.  
So his argument is that the reaction to Marler was the usual PC overstep in a game that has always and will always have digs and insults as a natural part of its combative makeup.

BUT................. none of that is the interesting bit.  I'd agree with a lot of what he says about all that.  Yes, it is good to take offence, but no, I think the pay-back should be on the field rather than in these eternal official inquisitions with the studious courtly frowns.

BUT...... the interesting bit for me -and neither of these things have I heard mentioned in any other forum, official media or social chat - is what he says about the specifics; Marler, Lee, the word 'Gypsy', and one other Welsh player that he named but I won't.

So, maybe it's just that I don't read up so much on rugby issues these days and missed it, but Francis seems to assert that Lee started his own insult game first when he called Marler a 'posh, English c**t'.  Is this true?  Is this openly in the public domain?  Francis's tone seems to suggest he isn't making it up but I'd need others to confirm that yep, it's out there that Lee said this.  If he did say it, he was loking for his own trouble - and got it in the neck right back, and rightly so.  Incidently, the term 'posh English c**t' had Francis laughing as Marler is one of the boys that came up through rugby by other avenues besides the silver-spoon route.

BUT... Francis then has a more serious accusation - also in a tone that leads me to believe he is quoting from official sources.  

He mentions another player - a Welsh player - who gave an interview the week before the English game and said this:  "I remember playing against him when I was 11.  All the boys were talking about Samson Lee, the gypsy.  The only thing I remember really from that game was the smell - he smells better now."

???  I've just googled that comment, and it appears a genuine interview comment by the player mentioned in Francis's article.  I was stunned.  I hadn't heard that comment before today, and maybe it's been used in the debates about Marler and Lee already.  If so apologies.  But it is startling that a Welsh colleague of Lee's could be allowed say such a thing (without a media murmur in the week leading into the English game) but that the rugby world would then go into meltdown about Marler's much less descriptive insult.

I suppose the twist on that story will declare that the 'smell' comment was made by a pal of Lee's and therefore it's only banter thrown at a friend and therefore harmless etc, etc.  But I'd say that's much too neat a reading and I question whether the player is a 'pal' of all travellers?  Did he expect all travellers to get the 'joke' and be in on it?

So, as Francis said in the end - does that Welsh player deserve a £40,000 fine and a four week suspension? I wouldn't think so personally. But I'd question why the 'media' ignored it the week before it got stuck into Marler?

Neil Francis ......... nuff said

Ulster says NO to Francis!!! Never! Never! Never!.............................never!

Oh, I would be one to say YES! .... to Francis being limited to writing Christmas cracker jokes. He's up there with that other giant of sports journalism - Trevor Brennan

.....To be fair on Brennan, his book ' Heart and Soul' is a good read, although Thornley put it all together for him.

Munchkin wrote:Oh, I would be one to say YES! .... to Francis being limited to writing Christmas cracker jokes. He's up there with that other giant of sports journalism - Trevor Brennan

.....To be fair on Brennan, his book ' Heart and Soul' is a good read, although Thornley put it all together for him.

.....


...who in turn has all his stuff written for him by successive Irish coaches shipping their team selection secrets to him via Bruges, Helsinki, Tokyo and a special agent covering as a fruit and veg saleswoman on Moore Street

...some even say the fruit and veg woman ain't no woman as she's much too tall to be from Moore street. No.... Francis thinks it might be Murray Kinsella himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All Hail! The true God of Reason is still amongst us!!!!

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Oh, I would be one to say YES! .... to Francis being limited to writing Christmas cracker jokes. He's up there with that other giant of sports journalism - Trevor Brennan

.....To be fair on Brennan, his book ' Heart and Soul' is a good read, although Thornley put it all together for him.

.....


...who in turn has all his stuff written for him by successive Irish coaches shipping their team selection secrets to him via Bruges, Helsinki, Tokyo and a special agent covering as a fruit and veg saleswoman on Moore Street

Ha! There's a lot of truth in that. Thornley is another journalist who likes to ruffle feathers, but it's something that backfires on him, from time to time. I suppose the adage; 'no publicity is bad publicity', might hold particularly true for journalists though.

In all their favour is the fact that none of the above are as truly awful as Paul Rees.

Anyway Munch. - getting back to the topic (as I'm never one to digress a million miles away from a topic............... )

------------- you're probably keeping more up to date than me. Is that comment by the Welsh player old news? Has it already been discussed on these pages or elsewhere? Is it known about by most people in here on 606?

Fly, frankly it is hypocrisy that WR should focus on Marler and not on Rob Evans (I think it was Evans who allegedly made the comments) if that is established fact. They're really not far off Marler's in nature. Not sure whether the context is better or worse given Evans has been playing alongside Lee in the front row for quite a few years now.

Then again some have also claimed that the phrase "get back to your caravan" was used. Watching the footage I can't make it out clearly, though it sounds like more was probably said after gypsy boy. What precisely was said I can't say.

SecretFly wrote:Anyway Munch.  - getting back to the topic (as I'm never one to digress a million miles away from a topic............... )

-------------  you're probably keeping more up to date than me.  Is that comment by the Welsh player old news?  Has it already been discussed on these pages or elsewhere?  Is it known about by most people in here on 606?

There were a few posters who discussed the article on here, Fly. Someone posted what was said, in full, and it isn't 100% certain that he was being referred to as a 'smelly gypsy. Just that he was a gypsy and, a few sentences later on, that he smelled a bit. It was all tongue in cheek, but those on one side of the argument try to use it as damning evidence of hypocrisy. There seems to be a wilful ignorance by some in understanding context and intent.

The one inescapable truth in all this is that Marler himself admitted that his comment crossed the line, and it is Marler himself that said he was prepared to take whatever punishment deemed appropriate.

It was a silly mistake, nothing more. He's not a racist, but deserved a rap on the knuckles. The lack of appropriate action by 6N's has prolonged what should have been done and dusted long before now. The media attention has made this much harder on Marler, and Lee.

Yeah, Knowsit.  I wouldn't 'hang' anyone in this whole mess, myself.  I'm colourful enough, and Irish enough!!, to have thrown a good few foul-language loaded banterish' insults at a humanbeing or four in my life - and undoubtedly a few more will be victims before it's over .  So I'm no purist angel.  

I was just interested in the disparity of interest between what was obviously considered a 'nice' insult by a fellow Welsh player and that Marler 'bad' one.  The Welsh player's comments seem to have been regarded at the time as the usual little bit of banterish niggle between team mates (POC and DOC were always taking the p-i-s-s out of each other in interviews too).  So we all get the 'tone' of the interview.

..... but what the Welsh player said was in coldblood, sitting comfortably in a seat, with time to consider his words more carefully, with time enough to hold back on stretching the playfulness too far - and it still seemed wilfully to be a step darker in 'humour' (the published insults anyway) than Marler's hot blooded gaff.  

We've all insulted people, even people we dearly love, in moments of red mist anger.  But not many of us would casually repeat the insults when stone cold sober.


It's just the double standard reaction to the culture of 'insult' that can be difficult to swallow from mainstream media.

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Anyway Munch.  - getting back to the topic (as I'm never one to digress a million miles away from a topic............... )

-------------  you're probably keeping more up to date than me.  Is that comment by the Welsh player old news?  Has it already been discussed on these pages or elsewhere?  Is it known about by most people in here on 606?

There were a few posters who discussed the article on here, Fly. Someone posted what was said, in full, and it isn't 100% certain that he was being referred to as a 'smelly gypsy. Just that he was a gypsy and, a few sentences later on, that he smelled a bit. It was all tongue in cheek, but those on one side of the argument try to use it as damning evidence of hypocrisy. There seems to be a wilful ignorance by some in understanding context and intent.

The one inescapable truth in all this is that Marler himself admitted that his comment crossed the line, and it is Marler himself that said he was prepared to take whatever punishment deemed appropriate.

It was a silly mistake, nothing more. He's not a racist, but deserved a rap on the knuckles. The lack of appropriate action by 6N's, and the media attention, has prolonged what should have been done and dusted long before now.

???  Hmmmmm....  A quote is a quote, Munch.  

No, I can't see that the 'smell' one is any less incendiary (to a traveller that isn't a pal of the Welsh player in question) than Marler's.  

No, I can't see any distinction only in the excuse that one of the insulters of a distinct 'grouping' or 'culture' is a personal friend of one of their number.  But like I keep repeating - it was a Public interview... and the player ain't a personal friend of all travellers.  It's every bit as insulting in general term to travellers as a grouping as Marler's was.

Fly all of those things have been covered at some point in the forum but the problem is that a minority have stuck with the 'its racism and can't be discussed further' line which I can't help feel is distantly related to the 'any statue offends our god and therefore must be destroyed' line (and worse) used by certain people (?) out there.

There are lines to be defined and there is a debate to be had. Personally given the common usage of the terms involved (apparently within the welsh camp as well) I can't help think things got blown hugely out of proportion. Yes it should have got flagged up and warnings given as necessary but everything else feels like a media circus.

Agree, lost.

There was never a question of hanging anyone imo. The only question for me was procedure, just a simple action which spells "nope, that's a no-no, can't say that, don't want to promote so and so behaviour" etc and that has been done. Maybe a token slap on the wrist and nice two weeks off for Evans would have also been advised if they're following up on Marler.

Some might even argue using pejorative stereotypes casually is worse than doing so pointedly. At least in the latter case there's a small element of sincerity and self-awareness involved; doing it casually probably comes across as far more ignorant.

Easy to agree with all of that too Knowsit

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Anyway Munch.  - getting back to the topic (as I'm never one to digress a million miles away from a topic............... )

-------------  you're probably keeping more up to date than me.  Is that comment by the Welsh player old news?  Has it already been discussed on these pages or elsewhere?  Is it known about by most people in here on 606?

There were a few posters who discussed the article on here, Fly. Someone posted what was said, in full, and it isn't 100% certain that he was being referred to as a 'smelly gypsy. Just that he was a gypsy and, a few sentences later on, that he smelled a bit. It was all tongue in cheek, but those on one side of the argument try to use it as damning evidence of hypocrisy. There seems to be a wilful ignorance by some in understanding context and intent.

The one inescapable truth in all this is that Marler himself admitted that his comment crossed the line, and it is Marler himself that said he was prepared to take whatever punishment deemed appropriate.

It was a silly mistake, nothing more. He's not a racist, but deserved a rap on the knuckles. The lack of appropriate action by 6N's, and the media attention, has prolonged what should have been done and dusted long before now.

???  Hmmmmm....  A quote is a quote, Munch.  

No, I can't see that the 'smell' one is any less incendiary (to a traveller that isn't a pal of the Welsh player in question) than Marler's.  

No, I can't see any distinction only in the excuse that one of the insulters of a distinct 'grouping' or 'culture' is a personal friend of one of their number.  But like I keep repeating - it was a Public interview... and the player ain't a personal friend of all travellers.  It's every bit as insulting in general term to travellers as a grouping as Marler's was.

Come on, Fly, I know that you know this isn't true.

You can't distinguish between the contexts and intents? Really?

Shut it! Irish spud headed idiot!!!!!




..........

SecretFly wrote:Shut it! Irish spud headed idiot!!!!!




..........

Bog trotting gimp

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Can we still keep calling the Aussies convicts?

Long distance travelers now shewerly? Or boat people maybe.