The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

Don't know enough about the subject matter to make a decent comment but as for the article itself



Thats how to do it..

Firstly, the WRU don't own the regions (50% of Dragons they care little about) so Welsh refs in the Pro isn't an issue then?

It's interesting, that now everyone seems to be buying into the pro 12 as a product, instead of a facility for 4 nations to play club rugby and develop players for the union. Celtic club rugby might as well be dead, it's a warming station for international players, and with the odds stacked firmly against them in europe, and the gulf of haves and have nots we might as well be honest about it.

The Italians have been shafted by the PRL, and now people want to shaft them further because of it, it's disgracefull and opposite for everything rugby stands for!

Agree on the Italians and the referees/officials need improved.

Don't agree that the brand of rugby is an issue, it is certainly more exciting than the top 14.

Centrally contracted players will be restricted and don't believe that is an issue - some teams just need to build better squads to compensate - players are rested all the time in France for instance but internationals are replacing internationals, people only complain when academy players are coming in to replace big names at certain times of the season.

What would you do to improve the refereeing situation rodders ?

Not sure but the quality doesn't seem to be there, particularly the TMOs. The champions cup doesn't seem to have the same issues and that involves teams from different unions/countries.

I think neutral TMO's are a must as is the reviewing of a refs performance post match.

Guscott is right about the rugby this year, earlier in the season it was pretty poor with only Connacht as the shining light - it's got better as the season has gone on. I'm a fan of the Irish structure but I can see what Guscott is getting at here as well. When the Irish don't play a few of their best players they change tactics and look to strangle teams rather than play rugby - it's a misery to watch yet it's so frustrating as Welsh teams have such difficulty trying to overcome it. I'm sure the Irish teams don't care as long as they're winning.

Referee's here are shocking. Fitzgibbon on the weekend summed it up. Thankfully I have noticed some young ref's coming through who look good at their job, Whitehouse for example.

Fitzgibbon is awful, I almost wanted Clownshoes in charge instead.

mikey_dragon wrote:Guscott is right about the rugby this year, earlier in the season it was pretty poor with only Connacht as the shining light - it's got better as the season has gone on.

Yes but I think if you take Glasgow specifically they had most of their side at the RWC and look really good now. Leinster and Ulster have got better too.

I think the RWC has had a bigger impact on the pro12 as most teams are losing more 1st team players plus have less depth generally than some of the AP and Top14 sides.

mikey_dragon wrote:Guscott is right about the rugby this year, earlier in the season it was pretty poor with only Connacht as the shining light - it's got better as the season has gone on. I'm a fan of the Irish structure but I can see what Guscott is getting at here as well. When the Irish don't play a few of their best players they change tactics and look to strangle teams rather than play rugby - it's a misery to watch yet it's so frustrating as Welsh teams have such difficulty trying to overcome it. I'm sure the Irish teams don't care as long as they're winning.

Referee's here are shocking. Fitzgibbon on the weekend summed it up. Thankfully I have noticed some young ref's coming through who look good at their job, Whitehouse for example.

That simply isn't true. Seems to me that Guscott was getting at the Regions, but I don't think that's really true either. Scarlets have always tried to play a good running game, and Cardiff are playing a good, pleasing on the eye, brand as well.

The RWC has had an impact on PRO12 this season. Lots of disruption, with a few teams trying to come to terms with missing so many internationals. It is true that PRO12 sides do tend to have more internationals, and those players will go missing during 6N's and AI's, but that encourages deeper squads, and bringing through young talent.

I don't think the referees are as bad as some make out especially when they compare them to other leagues, tribalism kicks in too often and it becomes about that and muddies the water. Yes the standards can be better but it won't happen over night, guys like Anayi and Ed Morrison have identified issues and potential solutions so you just have to see what happens over the next few years.

The Italians need an intervention, the unions need to step in and give them an ultimatum and some targets and standards to set. It was great that Glasgow stayed a bit longer in Italy and worked with Treviso on their scrums, I think this should be a more regular thing for clubs and unions to do, passing on the knowledge to improve them is great for everyone. There should be the identification of issues within the Italian setup, such as academies, coach development etc though Im sure Conor O'Shea will be doing plenty of that.

The fees the Italians have to pay is ridiculous and should be scrapped altogether, I'd even suggest the other Pro12 unions financing marquee signings for the two teams. Sounds crazy but if they can maybe bring Parisse back to Italy or a big name SH player it'd increase crowds, draw more tv viewers, revenue and sponsorship and it can be a loan to be repaid over x years and at y% if they don't increase revenues or z% if they do or take a cut of their tv revenue. It could also help attract some Italians home which would create a bit more strength which is severely lacking there.

There are plenty of Pro 12 teams with decent pros not getting enough game time and the Italians don't have enough full time players all year round, some sort of loan system would surely make sense and could be beneficial to everyone

Referees for Pro 12, Top 14, Super 18 and Aviva should be a global list run by World Rugby. Unions should contribute towards running costs. Won't happen anytime soon without someone having some serious guts. Pro 12 should just do a committee. 1 or 2 members per union who choose refs for games. Each union picks up a quarter of the tab.

As for the Italians, get rid of the payment to get into the Pro 12 if it still exists. Scotland are talking of playing academy games over there and that would be a start. Maybe an academy cup comp allowing for 5 players over 23. I reckon touring sides for non-internationals (Pro 12 Baabaa's) could go and have a 3 week tour each summer. Require 5 u23's to be in the starting line up. There is a disconnect between u20's and pro level at the moment so gives some competitive games to guys who are struggling to get time with clubs. Split coaching for these tours so they train together. Sort the schedule so that if Newport play Treviso away they play Zebre away next. Coaching could be shared for Treviso that week with Newport. It would at least be a start and would raise intensity levels at the junior level and at the senior level.

Like the idea of loaning players out cause Scotland has a bottleneck that should be fed to LS. Championship is great for forwards but backs are better served in the Pro 12. However, Italy need to make sure they are bringing through future internationals. Maybe limit it to 6-8 players per team and make them season long loans. I am sure a 24 year old will be crying about having to spend a year in Parma with the bad weather and terrible food but if that is what it takes to make it as a pro....

The nationality/neutrality of refs doesn't just apply to the game in hand, at times I have heard grumbles about an Irish ref when we have played a Scottish side, because either helping or hindering us was seen as aiding one of the provinces in the league. So what I would love to see happen would be us having 5 officiating teams, featuring one official from each union. They can rotate between ref, linesmen or TMO as they see fit amongst themselves. That would give far better consistency, and neutrality.

As for the league structure/teams, we have changed the league structure/teams/qualification almost every season, lets see how it goes just leaving it alone for a few seasons.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Referees for Pro 12, Top 14, Super 18 and Aviva should be a global list run by World Rugby. Unions should contribute towards running costs. Won't happen anytime soon without someone having some serious guts. Pro 12 should just do a committee. 1 or 2 members per union who choose refs for games. Each union picks up a quarter of the tab.

Think that's logistically too much, having guys flying across the world every week is a lot to ask especially as some aren't full time refs. I think the Pro 12 having a central pool though run from Pro 12 offices in Dublin of course to ensure partiality is the way to go

In all seriousness though, a central pool run by Ed Morrison and maybe a few others can't hurt I think it is hindered by World Rugbys regs that require refs to be run by unions

Hazel Sapling wrote:As for the Italians, get rid of the payment to get into the Pro 12 if it still exists. Scotland are talking of playing academy games over there and that would be a start. Maybe an academy cup comp allowing for 5 players over 23. I reckon touring sides for non-internationals (Pro 12 Baabaa's) could go and have a 3 week tour each summer. Require 5 u23's to be in the starting line up. There is a disconnect between u20's and pro level at the moment so gives some competitive games to guys who are struggling to get time with clubs. Split coaching for these tours so they train together. Sort the schedule so that if Newport play Treviso away they play Zebre away next. Coaching could be shared for Treviso that week with Newport. It would at least be a start and would raise intensity levels at the junior level and at the senior level.

Some sort of cup competition at under age level couldn't hurt, in Ireland and Wales it could fill the gaps between the B&I Cup and be outside 6N and AI windows. The Welsh currently put two Premiership Select sides into the B&I Cup, the other two could play in this and the Scottish and Italians do combined sides, two groups of 4 with the top teams playing in the final?

Fanster wrote:Firstly, the WRU don't own the regions (50% of Dragons they care little about) so Welsh refs in the Pro isn't an issue then?

It's interesting, that now everyone seems to be buying into the pro 12 as a product, instead of a facility for 4 nations to play club rugby and develop players for the union. Celtic club rugby might as well be dead, it's a warming station for international players, and with the odds stacked firmly against them in europe, and the gulf of haves and have nots we might as well be honest about it.

The Italians have been shafted by the PRL, and now people want to shaft them further because of it, it's disgracefull and opposite for everything rugby stands for!

Well said Sir !

The league is gettng more competitive and the days when teams could rest lots of players between internationals and HC games are now gone. Look at the big names who may or already have missed out this year. Other sides are going to come more into the mix as well next year and the league is becomming even more competitive.

Teams still need to manage their squads though, they just need to do it with a bit more thought than is sometimes done, resting individual players rather than the whole pack in one go. A more competitive league will continue to improve the product and the spectacle. Rugby fans will surely respond to that and start to come and support their teams. It is working in Glasgow and Connacht!

The Italians need to be given more time. I have seen then play a few times recently and you have to say that a massive issue for them is conditioning. They always go over the edge of the cliff in the second half. Glasgow did a session with Treviso when they were out there and someone reported that they only had one part time conditioner, Glasgow have three and an intern. No wonder they are not fit.

Having said that, the support for them cannot go on for ever. They know what they need to and probably need to be set some improvement targets. They need to be helped with that though and not just put upon all the time for not getting it right. Some of the other teams in the league, Glasgow included, where not to professional themselves only a few years ago!

BigGee wrote:The league is gettng more competitive and the days when teams could rest lots of players between internationals and HC games are now gone. Look at the big names who may or already have missed out this year. Other sides are going to come more into the mix as well next year and the league is becomming even more competitive.

Teams still need to manage their squads though, they just need to do it with a bit more thought than is sometimes done, resting individual players rather than the whole pack in one go. A more competitive league will continue to improve the product and the spectacle. Rugby fans will surely respond to that and start to come and support their teams. It is working in Glasgow and Connacht!

The Italians need to be given more time. I have seen then play a few times recently and you have to say that a massive issue for them is conditioning. They always go over the edge of the cliff in the second half. Glasgow did a session with Treviso when they were out there and someone reported that they only had one part time conditioner, Glasgow have three and an intern. No wonder they are not fit.

Having said that, the support for them cannot go on for ever. They know what they need to and probably need to be set some improvement targets. They need to be helped with that though and not just put upon all the time for not getting it right. Some of the other teams in the league, Glasgow included, where not to professional themselves only a few years ago!

I think this is what a lot of people seem to forget. Before the Italians joined the league we had Connacht, one of the Scottish sides (as they tended to alternate who was good and who wasn't), and the Dragons as the leagues whipping boys. And we are now looking at the possibility of Connacht and both the Scottish sides being in the RCC next season.

Dragons never really used to fear Glasgow coming to town not so long ago either.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

BigGee wrote:The league is gettng more competitive and the days when teams could rest lots of players between internationals and HC games are now gone. Look at the big names who may or already have missed out this year. Other sides are going to come more into the mix as well next year and the league is becomming even more competitive.

Teams still need to manage their squads though, they just need to do it with a bit more thought than is sometimes done, resting individual players rather than the whole pack in one go. A more competitive league will continue to improve the product and the spectacle. Rugby fans will surely respond to that and start to come and support their teams. It is working in Glasgow and Connacht!

The Italians need to be given more time. I have seen then play a few times recently and you have to say that a massive issue for them is conditioning. They always go over the edge of the cliff in the second half. Glasgow did a session with Treviso when they were out there and someone reported that they only had one part time conditioner, Glasgow have three and an intern. No wonder they are not fit.

Having said that, the support for them cannot go on for ever. They know what they need to and probably need to be set some improvement targets. They need to be helped with that though and not just put upon all the time for not getting it right. Some of the other teams in the league, Glasgow included, where not to professional themselves only a few years ago!

I think this is what a lot of people seem to forget.  Before the Italians joined the league we had Connacht, one of the Scottish sides (as they tended to alternate who was good and who wasn't), and the Dragons as the leagues whipping boys.  And we are now looking at the possibility of Connacht and both the Scottish sides being in the RCC next season.

Excuse me, I suggest you look at the league tables to see just how bad the Dragons have been.  We've never finished bottom, not even before the Italians arrived!  In fact, our lowest league finish was when the Italians were in the league, not before.  Since 2003 our league placings have been:

3rd, 4th, 8th (out of 11), 9th (out of 11), 8th (out of 10), 9th (out of 10), 7th, 7th (the year the Italians joined), 9th (out of 12), 11th, 9th, 9th.   I'd say that suggests we've got worse, but the whipping boys???? Come on! There's been plenty of 'bigger' sides that have finished below us: Ulster, Blues, Scarlets, Edinburgh all in the last 6 years!

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

BigGee wrote:The league is gettng more competitive and the days when teams could rest lots of players between internationals and HC games are now gone. Look at the big names who may or already have missed out this year. Other sides are going to come more into the mix as well next year and the league is becomming even more competitive.

Teams still need to manage their squads though, they just need to do it with a bit more thought than is sometimes done, resting individual players rather than the whole pack in one go. A more competitive league will continue to improve the product and the spectacle. Rugby fans will surely respond to that and start to come and support their teams. It is working in Glasgow and Connacht!

The Italians need to be given more time. I have seen then play a few times recently and you have to say that a massive issue for them is conditioning. They always go over the edge of the cliff in the second half. Glasgow did a session with Treviso when they were out there and someone reported that they only had one part time conditioner, Glasgow have three and an intern. No wonder they are not fit.

Having said that, the support for them cannot go on for ever. They know what they need to and probably need to be set some improvement targets. They need to be helped with that though and not just put upon all the time for not getting it right. Some of the other teams in the league, Glasgow included, where not to professional themselves only a few years ago!

I think this is what a lot of people seem to forget.  Before the Italians joined the league we had Connacht, one of the Scottish sides (as they tended to alternate who was good and who wasn't), and the Dragons as the leagues whipping boys.  And we are now looking at the possibility of Connacht and both the Scottish sides being in the RCC next season.

Excuse me, I suggest you look at the league tables to see just how bad the Dragons have been.  We've never finished bottom, not even before the Italians arrived!  In fact, our lowest league finish was when the Italians were in the league, not before.  Since 2003 our league placings have been:

3rd, 4th, 8th (out of 11), 9th (out of 11), 8th (out of 10), 9th (out of 10), 7th, 7th (the year the Italians joined), 9th (out of 12), 11th, 9th, 9th.   I'd say that suggests we've got worse, but the whipping boys???? Come on! There's been plenty of 'bigger' sides that have finished below us: Ulster, Blues, Scarlets, Edinburgh all in the last 6 years!

And with the exception of their first season Dragons have had a negative points difference every year, first sign of a whipping boy

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

BigGee wrote:The league is gettng more competitive and the days when teams could rest lots of players between internationals and HC games are now gone. Look at the big names who may or already have missed out this year. Other sides are going to come more into the mix as well next year and the league is becomming even more competitive.

Teams still need to manage their squads though, they just need to do it with a bit more thought than is sometimes done, resting individual players rather than the whole pack in one go. A more competitive league will continue to improve the product and the spectacle. Rugby fans will surely respond to that and start to come and support their teams. It is working in Glasgow and Connacht!

The Italians need to be given more time. I have seen then play a few times recently and you have to say that a massive issue for them is conditioning. They always go over the edge of the cliff in the second half. Glasgow did a session with Treviso when they were out there and someone reported that they only had one part time conditioner, Glasgow have three and an intern. No wonder they are not fit.

Having said that, the support for them cannot go on for ever. They know what they need to and probably need to be set some improvement targets. They need to be helped with that though and not just put upon all the time for not getting it right. Some of the other teams in the league, Glasgow included, where not to professional themselves only a few years ago!

I think this is what a lot of people seem to forget.  Before the Italians joined the league we had Connacht, one of the Scottish sides (as they tended to alternate who was good and who wasn't), and the Dragons as the leagues whipping boys.  And we are now looking at the possibility of Connacht and both the Scottish sides being in the RCC next season.

Excuse me, I suggest you look at the league tables to see just how bad the Dragons have been.  We've never finished bottom, not even before the Italians arrived!  In fact, our lowest league finish was when the Italians were in the league, not before.  Since 2003 our league placings have been:

3rd, 4th, 8th (out of 11), 9th (out of 11), 8th (out of 10), 9th (out of 10), 7th, 7th (the year the Italians joined), 9th (out of 12), 11th, 9th, 9th.   I'd say that suggests we've got worse, but the whipping boys???? Come on! There's been plenty of 'bigger' sides that have finished below us: Ulster, Blues, Scarlets, Edinburgh all in the last 6 years!

You can only go back five years. Everybody knows this!

The Dragons' time will come, Griff!

The Italians need to be given time. The HEC negotiations a few years ago set the Italians back a bit because they were uncertain of their future.


On Guscott's article. He says it like theres nothing to play for. Sure theres no relegation but there still is plenty to play for.


Looking at the style of play, well Glasgow and now Connacht are showing the others how its done, literally! The other teams will (or have already) start copying them.

Griff, no offence was meant. But I doubt, with the first season aside, that many teams have thought 'oh, poop the dragons are here next week, that's a game we are going to lose', generally it has always been 'dragons at home, that's one in the bank'.

Luckless, i have no doubt the Dragons time will come. And no doubt next Saturday I'll be reminded of those words (that's how things seem to go).

The darkest decade (and counting) is before the dawn!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Griff, no offence was meant.  But I doubt, with the first season aside, that many teams have thought 'oh, poop the dragons are here next week, that's a game we are going to lose', generally it has always been 'dragons at home, that's one in the bank'.

Luckless, i have no doubt the Dragons time will come.  And no doubt next Saturday I'll be reminded of those words (that's how things seem to go).

None taken SS. I was trying to be a bit tongue in cheek, but also pointing out some things as there often seems to be a misconception that the dragons are always bottom of the league. Towards the bottom is different from actually finishing bottom, relegation style, which we've never done. I've noticed my post brought the Irish mafia out with their pitch forks though. Tally Ho boys.

To be honest though SS, show me the sides where anyone has said 'oh poop, it's x'. Leinster in their prime, Munster at times, Ospreys a few years ago, Glasgow a couple of years ago. That's about it.

For me,the Aviva and Top14 have absolutely no interest in a successful Pro12,anything but.I think the biggest issue facing the Regions is the absence of sustained success.Attendances would increase if the four teams could deliver this.My own belief is that the coaching has not been of the required standard to generate this success and optimising the playing resources available.A good example of this was the Cardiff v Dragons game at the weekend when some of the decision making in try scoring situations was unbelievably poor.Another example were the O's losses to Connacht and Leinster away where defensive deficiencies cost the O's victories.Also,to focus on the refereeing is confusing the wood with the trees.It's not the referees dropping the ball,aimlessly kicking the ball away and not releasing, not forgetting the poor and over use of box kicking and missed passes.

With the Italians it's time to let the FIR know that it's no benefit to nobody for their teams to get regular twonkings so give them a year and review options around other viable European club sides.

It's been a funny old year with the RWC and the 6N but there's no excuses I can see for next season.Let's hope JD gives us all hope for the future.

exile jack wrote:For me,the Aviva and Top14 have absolutely no interest in a successful Pro12,anything but.

exiled jack....................................

...nuff said folks.

...close the thread.  

Jeremy Guscott offers advice?  Someone should tell him to read the 606 archives.  We're all well ahead of him on the detail.

Moving forward has to begin with our league's big clubs progressing in Europe next season. This one was always a bit of a write-off with the World Cup followed by the six nations. Also fully expect the Blues to kick on and continue doing the business next season.

The above comment sums up why the Pro12 is perceived as a ' development league ' - the Pro12's MD's words not mine.

The league has to be seen as competitive otherwise commercial value will not be forthcoming.

The AP and T14 leagues have generated a value - European competition commercial value should be the icing on top.

The Pro12 has the capacity to create an exciting league as for all the moans on here about Toulon - what AP/T14 club has a virtual team of international players who have played together against the ABs or Springboks. Leinster Glasgow currently with Munster and Ospreys in the past have gained that experience that ordinary clubs can only dream about.

Rumours of Sky dropping the Pro12 because audiences have not met commercial targets, has to be addressed. If Sky can't hype a sport or league then probably no-one can.

The irony of the new euro qualification creating tensions within franchises in the league and now the lack of meritocratic qualification for Italian teams being questioned is not lost on English & French fans.

You can't hype easily something when the rivals to that something are right on your doorstep peddling their pots and pans, and hoping they take some of your fanbase over to their show.  

A rival is a rival not a friend.  

I guess we could all admit to that truth and just keep trucking through and hoping to get to a few gas stations to keep us on the road regardless.

But 'friendly' advice coming from members of rival Leagues that either want to consume what you are or destroy you, it's not too conducive to a positive reception

Griff wrote:To be honest though SS, show me the sides where anyone has said 'oh poop, it's x'. Leinster in their prime, Munster at times, Ospreys a few years ago, Glasgow a couple of years ago. That's about it.

I'll be honest Munster, Leinster, and whoever the good Scottish side were, always made me feel that way. The Ospreys generally do but rivalry makes me always believe we can take them.

And Ulster always made me feel like 'great how are we getting shafted this time'.

Recwatcher16 wrote:The above comment sums up why the Pro12 is perceived as a ' development league ' - the Pro12's MD's words not mine.

The league has to be seen as competitive otherwise commercial value will not be forthcoming.

The AP and T14  leagues have generated a value - European competition  commercial value should be the icing on top.

The Pro12 has the capacity to create an exciting league as for all the moans on here about Toulon - what AP/T14 club has a virtual team of international players who have played together against the ABs or Springboks. Leinster Glasgow currently with Munster and Ospreys in the past have gained that experience that ordinary clubs can only dream about.

Rumours of Sky dropping the Pro12 because audiences have not met commercial targets, has to be addressed. If Sky can't hype a sport or league then probably no-one can.

The irony of the new euro qualification creating tensions within franchises in the league and now the lack of meritocratic qualification for Italian teams being questioned is not lost on English & French fans.

Did you hear the rumour that SKY wants sole broadcasting rights for PRO12? I did. Did you know that Martin Anayi, PRO12 managing director, has stated recently that SKY will be delighted with the viewing figures?
Who is the source of the rumour that SKY want to drop PRO12? The only place I have read that is a Paul Rees article in the Guardian. Paul Rees isn't a friend of PRO12. He has his head stuck up the arse of those that run the AP, and I don't doubt he would lie to get clicks either. Such is his integrity.

AP and T14 have received valuable broadcasting deals, but have they generated value? Jury is out on that one....

Virtually any side outside the Italians would often make me say "Oh Poopie, it's X" - especially the Welsh sides that always came at you in waves of speed and no little skill (even when losing). I was never smug about Leinster, even in their prime. The higher you are, the more angry and insistent the opposition attempts to over-run you become. Nerves were always on a high.
Glasgow though have become a real 'Oh Poopie!!!' side.

Munchkin wrote:
Who is the source of the rumour that SKY want to drop PRO12? The only place I have read that is a Paul Rees article in the Guardian. Paul Rees isn't a friend of PRO12. He has his head stuck up the arse of those that run the AP, and I don't doubt he would lie to get clicks either. Such is his integrity.

Ahhhh!!! All is right with the world. Leave it to Munch to bring on the 'fightin' talk'. I love fightin' talk and Munch rumbles nice, like.

Pro 12 - going from, strength to strength, gates up, playing standards up. really good fights all the way down the league. Blip in Europe this year due to a series of issues around the WC. It needs nurturing and not this constant denigration from someone who hates it. Yes the english based press want to do it down because it shows an alternative to the ap / top 14 model and one that is very successful

In a few more years an expansion to two divisions could be on the cards.

Expansion to two divisions will happen in the next 12 months.

Anayi has more than hinted at a conference style league. What makes you think divisions in less than 12 months? or maybe not next season, but the following, if that's what you mean?

Pot Hale wrote:Expansion to two divisions will happen in the next 12 months.

Where did you hear that, PH?

Pot? Tell us, Pot

?

The first officially sanctioned experiment into the plausibility of Biblical miracles?

Wow....Pro12 really is trying to up those Broadcasting contracts!  This is Show Biz!

Two Divisions eh??? -   Of what?  

The Loaves and the Fishes.

There are only about nine reasonably functioning teams in the present Pro12 (at a stretch) - and they all moan all the time about not having enough of this and not being enough of that.  So to improve the moans and turn them to smiles, we're going to add another division of moaners?  

Where are the teams going to come from?  Competitive ones, that is?

Check this link on PRO12 refs and their cards:

http://www.worldclubrugby.com/analysis/discipline.php?seasonID=21&competitionsID=1  

Very interesting reading. Seems the Irish refs aren't all that bad after all, with the exception of Fitzgibbon

Everyones new favourite - Ben Whitehouse, has ridiculous stats. Maybe not all that great.

So many homers...

SecretFly wrote:?

The first officially sanctioned experiment into the plausibility of Biblical miracles?

Wow....Pro12 really is trying to up those Broadcasting contracts!  This is Show Biz!

Two Divisions eh??? -   Of what?  

The Loaves and the Fishes.

There are only about nine reasonably functioning teams in the present Pro12 (at a stretch) - and they all moan all the time about not having enough of this and not being enough of that.  So to improve the moans and turn them to smiles, we're going to add another division of moaners?  

Where are the teams going to come from?  Competitive ones, that is?

I would love to see a 2nd division, but I didn't think we would see one for a few years yet, if ever. Not convinced, but intrigued.

The charge Munch is that Irish refs, by trying to appear overly fair to non-Irish sides, actually are then too unfair to their brother Irish sides. And that annoys the purist Pro12 Irish fans who feel it's no point having refs from your own Nation unless they give you a very healthy chunk of the bias cherry in your favour.....

I mean what's the incentive to keep paying them if they use the brides to go agin' your wishes?

And so...the Welsh - on our behalf, coz we're too shy and they ain't - say the Irish refs are being unfair to their own Provinces and therefore mock the competition and should be banned.

It ain't rocket science, like.....

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:?

The first officially sanctioned experiment into the plausibility of Biblical miracles?

Wow....Pro12 really is trying to up those Broadcasting contracts!  This is Show Biz!

Two Divisions eh??? -   Of what?  

The Loaves and the Fishes.

There are only about nine reasonably functioning teams in the present Pro12 (at a stretch) - and they all moan all the time about not having enough of this and not being enough of that.  So to improve the moans and turn them to smiles, we're going to add another division of moaners?  

Where are the teams going to come from?  Competitive ones, that is?

I would love to see a 2nd division, but I didn't think we would see one for a few years yet, if ever. Not convinced, but intrigued.

Yes.  But seriously - where would these sides come from?  For example, would us Irish have any?  If so, where would they come from?  College sides?  Munster Province for Division 1 and Munster Eagles for division 2 - both under Erasmus?  I don't know where the quality would be for a second division that had sights on going up a division given that the quality in the top right now struggles to sustain itself in professionalism

SecretFly wrote:The charge Munch is that Irish refs, by trying to appear overly fair to non-Irish sides, actually are then too unfair to their brother Irish sides.  And that annoys the purist Pro12 Irish fans who feel it's no point having refs from your own Nation unless they give you a very healthy chunk of the bias cherry in your favour.....

I mean what's the incentive to keep paying them if they use the brides to go agin' your wishes?

And so...the Welsh - on our behalf, coz we're too shy and they ain't - say the Irish refs are being unfair to their own Provinces and therefore mock the competition and should be banned.

It ain't rocket science, like.....

ah, it all makes sense now. Have to say I think it's very nice of our Welsh brethren to protest on our behalf

I'm not sure the refereeing issue is as big as it is made out to be, yes the standard is poor but it's hard to imagine anyone not attending a match on account of general refereeing standards in the league.
I think the one of the main issues is that the rivalries that you find in the English league and in the French league simply do not exist currently in the Pro12, that is simply because those rivalries are based on decades and decades of matches, people support the clubs their Fathers supported and so on and so forth. Many, in fact most of the Pro12 teams are less than twenty years old. But the rivalries are coming, Glasgow are building rivalries with the likes of the Scarlets and the traditionally biggest Irish teams for example.
The issue of money is a big one and it is hard to solve, most money comes from TV sponsorship but whereas England and France have populations of more than 40 million whereas the Celtic nations combined have less than 20 million. Furthermore vast swathes of Scotland, for example, are not represented. It's difficult to imagine a young child from Aberdeen or from Inverness building an affinity with Glasgow or Edinburgh, so in reality the market is not there for a TV audience and quite frankly the crowds aren't there. You can chastise the players for the money but Glasgow played the Scarlets this week in a near empty stadium, that's the two best teams from Scotland and Wales playing each other, on a saturday afternoon and nobody turned up. You can imagine Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg seeing the money, the crowds and the weather in France and being tempted, it's a vicious cycle.
There's also the Italian problem, there's no point in lying, they are not very good. The national team is worse than rubbish, and their professional teams are worse even than that. I've seen arguments that jettisoning them from the Pro12 will destroy Italian Rugby, but there's no proof that being in it has helped them whatsoever, in fact it's much easier to say that they've gone backwards. Of course, they, like the rest of the league have been shafted by the Champions cup debacle and are currently recovering from that.
I think that trying to copy Super Rugby or the Premiership or the Top14 clearly will not work, the Pro12 has to be much cleverer than that. One idea could be to work in tandem with the North Americans, Americans, annoying as they may be, love to claim Celtic or Italian heritage, if we introduced a ruling whereby every two years teams were required to take a game to the US we could be exposing our league to an enormous market, I understand that it is a big if, but there would suddenly be glamour games in New York, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco etc. for TV channels to show. As for the matches at home I think we need to be looking long term, teams like Edinburgh that have thousands of empty seats each week could start giving tickets away to schools and rugby clubs and building these connections with young people that will last, in the hope that they will keep coming back long into the future, but also that the younger ones start dragging their parents and the older ones their friends. The league suffers from being new and from being changed constantly, lets look into ways to make what we've got as good as it can possibly be. We have brilliant teams, brilliant players and brilliant stadiums it's about selling ourselves as best as we can. I think a lot of the time the league is too nice, it would be much better if we started thinking pragmatically and innovatively.

TJ wrote:Pro 12 - going from, strength to strength, gates up, playing standards up. really good fights all the way down the league.  Blip in Europe this year due to a series of issues around the WC.  It needs nurturing and not this constant denigration from someone who hates it.  Yes the english based press want to do it down because it shows an alternative to the ap / top 14 model and one that is very successful

In a few more years an expansion to two divisions could be on the cards.

Is it just a one year blip? Last season just one of the eight quarter finalists came from Pro 12. The average pool position of Pro 12 teams was lowest of the three leagues.