The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So again, you can't back your point up.

I can, and have, backed my point up. I can't back up your false, bastardised, silly interpretation.

But you don't know how much Saracens have spent on player wages.

I didn't claim to know the exact figure. I was specific in my note and proved it correct. Now that you've had that silly route blocked, you're trying another.

Playing dumb is never the best message board tactic.

profitius wrote:Did I read the other day that the game last weekend was Warburtons first in a month or two. Surprise surprise.


So here's the deal.

1 The top Welsh players play as little pro 12 as possible. Who is to blame for this is up for debate.

2 They recover from injury just in time for Wales matches.

3 They're off the pace for the first few games.

4 Gatland and Edwards blames the pro 12.


Gatlands strategy is to cotton wool his top players as much as possible. They start slowly in every international window as a result but they've more of their top players available.


There's nothing wrong with that. But, instead of admitting it Gatland and Edwards are using the pro 12 as a scapegoat.

Gatland is just shameless. Wrong, shameless and stubborn.

But, thanks to the 6 year contract Roger Lewis awarded him when he needed some positive publicity, Gatland's position is secure.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So again, you can't back your point up.

I can, and have, backed my point up. I can't back up your false, bastardised, silly interpretation.

But you don't know how much Saracens have spent on player wages.

I didn't claim to know the exact figure. I was specific in my note and proved it correct. Now that you've had that silly route blocked, you're trying another.

Playing dumb is never the best message board tactic.

You can't back up your claim that any of the English clubs spend to the cap then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You can't back up your claim that any of the English clubs spend to the cap then.

Oh, now we're playing the 'let's hope that nobody remembers what has been proven earlier in the thread' game.

You're transparent, sunshine, so up your game.

So we're proving a few things here.

1. Gatland is helping kill the Welsh Domestic/Regional game by making it all about Him, Him, Him and his demands (example: that England International penned in for when Welsh players should have been involved in their League finals)

2. But Welsh players and fans are right to ignore the Pro12 and watch any other brand of rugby or football instead, just because they can't build up interest in a competition that doesn't include England, history, tradition and that requires a fan or two jumping on a ferry now and then to support their team.

Yeah. That's two facts so far. We're getting there slowly but surely.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You can't back up your claim that any of the English clubs spend to the cap then.

Oh, now we're playing the 'let's hope that nobody remembers what has been proven earlier in the thread' game.

You're transparent, sunshine, so up your game.

No still waiting for you to back your claim. We both know you won't be able to do so.

PhilBB wrote:They didn't 'let go' of Priestland, he wanted out. Those are two vastly different things. Your moan at Llanelli seems to be that they don't have a squad that can carry four players in a position, all of whom are top standard. I don't understand that thought pattern, sorry. I still don't see too much difference in ability between Anscombe and Patchell either, mind you.

Whatever, he went. There was no adequate replacement from their perspective and from a Wales perspective as behind Biggar no region had churned one out. Blues brought in Anscombe at Gatland's request because he knew it as much as I do. That was my gripe, not that Llanelli as you call them can't maintain 4 players in one position. What's top standard? Their product Shingler certainly isn't. Patchell is a promising product but from what we've seen I think it's clear he's not ready to step up to Wales, he's erratic for the Blues and looks better at 15 than 10.

PhilBB wrote:I think that you are overlooking those issues, that is to say you criticised a lack of production of players but that doesn't stand to reason. You've criticised the performance of PRW but not the WRU for creating that problem. Gatland, of course, being happy to stand next to Lewis when Lewis was trying to shut down PRW.

If I'm overlooking the issues then why am I acknowledging them? In comparison to Ireland who evidently since before the world cup have greater depth than us, there is a serious lack of production of high quality players. The WRU is also at fault and I've said there's room for intervention from them. It's out of Gatland's hands really isn't it. He usually gets the best out of what he's given, over time that is.

PhilBB wrote:England will always benefit from having three times as many professional teams so will always have better strength in depth. Do Ireland have better depth from Wales? That's a tough call but if you balance things in their favour then you must pay a nod to the fact their depth is secured by keeping their better players at home. I'd say recent results with Ireland, and recent Irish performances bar beating the worst SA team in a while, would put Wales ahead of Ireland.

I agree - but fact is their clubs don't struggle with bringing players up to a high standard, and the level required to compete in Europe and internationally. Ireland do have better depth than Wales - back-row, back 3, LH and fly-half spring to mind. They have a wolfhounds team. Their provincial teams have stronger squads which each have an A team, thus they can rotate and still maintain a top 4/6 presence in the pro12, and this year aside be competitive in Europe. Evidently their national team deals with injuries a lot better than us. Yes their depth is secured by keeping players in Ireland, good on them. No #Irexit around those parts. Our first team is probably still rated slightly better than theirs among most yes, however it seems that Ireland are improving and Wales going backwards - that must be a Wales (Gatland, WRU, PRW, etc) issue.

You seem to have expanded onto other things Phil and we've gone off from my original point that the regions can't do what they're supposed to be doing, and compared to other competing nations aren't very good at what they do. I've highlighted how and where. I'm not entirely sure what is meant to be all the Pro12s fault like you and Edwards think? Unless you think it's a season issue. The problems I've mentioned are a domestic issue. A second string Wales losing emphatically to a second string Chiefs team surely reiterates that. It was a scratch team that we had with players out of position and players who aren't at the required level, most of which have been with their welsh teams this season. It just reaffirms my view that the regions do not produce enough international players - Irish teams can do that but they also have good club players off of their production line ready to step in. That's not the case in Wales so it's a Wales issue.

thwe welsh teams lack of depth IMO is partly down to paying ridiculous sums to hold on to their top internationals leading to less money for squad players - p-ay half your income on 6 players then you can't afford the rest. I bet Glasgow have fewer player on big money than the welsh regions so glasgow can afford a decent 30+ man squad. Its the obsession with hanging onto every single international possible that cripples the welsh regions.

TJ wrote:thwe welsh teams lack of depth IMO is partly down to paying ridiculous sums to hold on to their top internationals leading to less money for squad players - p-ay half your income on 6 players then you can't afford the rest.  I bet Glasgow have fewer player on big money than the welsh regions so glasgow can afford a decent 30+ man squad.  Its the obsession with hanging onto every single international possible that cripples the welsh regions.

The list of players on a NDC if that's what you're referring to isn't exhaustive and the WRU pays 60% of their wages, therefore the regions aren't out of pocket - they're better off. Scarlets had to pay Scott Williams 300K per annum to keep him as a NDC wasn't right for him. That's a large sum of money but it was necessary in order to keep one of their best players. With this there isn't any sign of the Scarlets having less money to hold onto other players. They have Patchell incoming, as well as S15 players Bulbring (joined midway through the season), McNicholl and that former Bulls prop who's name escapes me right now. Rhodri Jones and Steve Shingler are some outgoing names but they're pretty much dead rubber.

Glasgow aren't a good example to use in that regard, however their squad is pretty strong and a lot of them Scottish who broke through at Glasgow right? The team plays at a very intensity from what I've seen so evidently they don't really have this issue with player development.

TJ wrote:thwe welsh teams lack of depth IMO is partly down to paying ridiculous sums to hold on to their top internationals leading to less money for squad players - p-ay half your income on 6 players then you can't afford the rest.  I bet Glasgow have fewer player on big money than the welsh regions so glasgow can afford a decent 30+ man squad.  Its the obsession with hanging onto every single international possible that cripples the welsh regions.

Glasgow have 35 internationals plus on their books and between them, Edinburgh and the national team, the SRU spend £22m a year.

So the figures disprove your opinion.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Whatever, he went. There was no adequate replacement from their perspective and from a Wales perspective as behind Biggar no region had churned one out. Blues brought in Anscombe at Gatland's request because he knew it as much as I do. That was my gripe, not that Llanelli as you call them can't maintain 4 players in one position. What's top standard? Their product Shingler certainly isn't. Patchell is a promising product but from what we've seen I think it's clear he's not ready to step up to Wales, he's erratic for the Blues and looks better at 15 than 10.

Owen Williams and Rhys Priestland both wanted to leave Llanelli. Both produced at Llanelli. Both still available to Gatland.

mikey_dragon wrote:
If I'm overlooking the issues then why am I acknowledging them? In comparison to Ireland who evidently since before the world cup have greater depth than us, there is a serious lack of production of high quality players. The WRU is also at fault and I've said there's room for intervention from them. It's out of Gatland's hands really isn't it. He usually gets the best out of what he's given, over time that is.

Great, as long as we can point the finger firmly at Lewis for that lack of strength (as it left to go to play overseas).

mikey_dragon wrote:
You seem to have expanded onto other things Phil and we've gone off from my original point that the regions can't do what they're supposed to be doing, and compared to other competing nations aren't very good at what they do. I've highlighted how and where. I'm not entirely sure what is meant to be all the Pro12s fault like you and Edwards think? Unless you think it's a season issue. The problems I've mentioned are a domestic issue. A second string Wales losing emphatically to a second string Chiefs team surely reiterates that. It was a scratch team that we had with players out of position and players who aren't at the required level, most of which have been with their welsh teams this season. It just reaffirms my view that the regions do not produce enough international players - Irish teams can do that but they also have good club players off of their production line ready to step in. That's not the case in Wales so it's a Wales issue.

My point is that PRW are doing what they are supposed to be doing but haven't been able to hold on to the players in Wales.

There's a bed block at Team Wales level where Gatland does not provide players with enough game time at the top level. Look at Anscombe - how much international rugby has he played at 10 yet he was the 10 cover on the bench last Saturday. Gatland picks from a closed shop who are able to run the 25kms a week he wants them to in Crossfit Cement. He hasn't tried to expand beyond that group.

Therefore, when you get shambles like this week, he's throwing his players to the lions as they have no experience of what they are getting involved with. In other words, he's perpetuating what you think is the problem at PRW.

You seem to be going off on a tangent and looking at reasons as to why the regions are underperforming on and off the field, and in the aspects I've pointed out. I was aware of most of the reasons, so there's no need to keep repeating them. And simply saying "It's all Lewis' fault" doesn't really excuse it. What will be interesting to see is how the new men at the helm now address this.

That may ring true for Gatland, and if so then perhaps an A team is needed to give the proper training and experience to our players lower down the pecking order. I can also see it from his perspective. The regions can't properly develop most of their players and fill their teams with sh*te, therefore he has to be the one to develop them.

mikey_dragon wrote:That may ring true for Gatland, and if so then perhaps an A team is needed to give the proper training and experience to our players lower down the pecking order.

Imagine the meltdown our regions would have if they had to provide players to team Wales and team Wales "A" side. Who would be left to play for the regions ?

Yep, we don't have the depth for it right now.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yep, we don't have the depth for it right now.

It's not just that though, the regions would want some sort of payment for the use of these players, then they would want the NWQ rules changed to cover for the players taken, we could see another war in Welsh rugby.

It appears to me that in their haste to hold onto star players the welsh teams pay too much of their budget on a few stars and then don't have enough left to get a decent sized squad of PRO 12 standard players. The leinster lesson is that you need a squad of 30+ player all of who can drop in and out of the team without a huge drop in ability. Glasgow learn't this lesson hence their improvement. Welsh teams seem to still rely on a first 15.

Is this a part of the issue or is my impression wrong?

TJ wrote:It appears to me that in their haste to hold onto star players the welsh teams pay too much of their budget on a few stars and then don't have enough left to get a decent sized squad of PRO 12 standard players.  The leinster lesson is that you need a squad of 30+ player all of who can drop in and out of the team without a huge drop in ability.  Glasgow learn't this lesson hence their improvement.  Welsh teams seem to still rely on a first 15.  

Is this a part of the issue or is my impression wrong?  

It is part of the issue. However, I think it is a bit more of a vicious circle than that. The regions need their star players to stay so they can earn money from sponsors and fans, the star players cost the more to keep so we can't afford to spend so much on the rest of the squad, the fans and sponsors see the drop in quality between the stars and the next best players and we think we wont put in any money if the stars are going.

Also I think we are always keen to put ourselves down. I honestly think the Scarlets squad last year was pretty good, and this coming season it is even better. WE played large chunks of the season without first team, or even second team, players and we did pretty well. But we look at other sides, who have similar strength sides when stripped of their first team, and instantly talk their players up whilst running ours down. I heard it a lot at the start of the season when we had the, then, big three irish sides coming over during the RWC, our fans were frightened we would not live with their much better players. The results said otherwise.

Might be interesting to do a comparison between the Scarlets and Glasgow squads. Number of potential lions, number of regular international first team choices, number of good pro 12 players, number of duds.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yep, we don't have the depth for it right now.

It's not just that though, the regions would want some sort of payment for the use of these players, then they would want the NWQ rules changed to cover for the players taken, we could see another war in Welsh rugby.

A dispute would be likely, and it's linked to the bottom-up structure in welsh rugby. Until that's sorted we can forget about everything else.

The new Eir sport are interested in the pro 12. I don't know if that's just for Ireland coverage or bidding against sky or both. No harm to have more competition.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/eir-sport-keeping-an-eye-on-pro12-408734.html

profitius wrote:The new Eir sport are interested in the pro 12. I don't know if that's just for Ireland coverage or bidding against sky or both. No harm to have more competition.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/eir-sport-keeping-an-eye-on-pro12-408734.html

I think it's just their geographical territory in ROI. So they get into a three/four-way bid
process with TG4/RTE/TV3/eir.

Not sure if this story got picked up already from last May about possible Pro 12 changes:

PLANS are being drawn up to revolutionise the Pro 12 from an international competition into an inter-continental one by including teams from North America and South Africa.

Extending the frontiers across the Atlantic in one direction and to the Springbok heartlands in another is only part of an overall strategy aimed at transforming the Celtic League into one with enough commercial clout to close the financial gap on the Premiership and Top 14.

One club chairman hailed the proposed revamping of the Pro 12 as ‘sensational.’ “It will do wonders for the game in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and beyond,’’ he said. “Everyone will see that when the project is announced in due course.’’
The prospect of Toronto and New York hosting Canadian and American teams as well as South African franchises appearing in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin will give the tournament a global appeal to enhance TV cash.

The plan is being driven by the Pro 12’s chief executive Martin Anayi and backed by the competition’s chairman, the former Wales and Lions wing Gerald Davies.

Source: The Rugby Paper 15 May 2016

Pot Hale wrote:Not sure if this story got picked up already from last Mary about possible Pro 12 changes:

PLANS are being drawn up to revolutionise the Pro 12 from an international competition into an inter-continental one by including teams from North America and South Africa.

Extending the frontiers across the Atlantic in one direction and to the Springbok heartlands in another is only part of an overall strategy aimed at transforming the Celtic League into one with enough commercial clout to close the financial gap on the Premiership and Top 14.

One club chairman hailed the proposed revamping of the Pro 12 as ‘sensational.’ “It will do wonders for the game in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and beyond,’’ he said. “Everyone will see that when the project is announced in due course.’’
The prospect of Toronto and New York hosting Canadian and American teams as well as South African franchises appearing in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin will give the tournament a global appeal to enhance TV cash.

The plan is being driven by the Pro 12’s chief executive Martin Anayi and backed by the competition’s chairman, the former Wales and Lions wing Gerald Davies.

Source: The Rugby Paper 15 May 2016

I like the idea, just not sure how practical it will be. Travelling costs will shoot up, and preparation for away games will be limited.

Anyway, who is Mary?

Sounds like one of those "blue sky thinking" ideas.
A Canadian team might be worthwhile, I think there's something similar planned in League with a team from Toronto.
Given the numbers of expats/UK descended people in Canada it might work, but the travelling costs are going to be high, particularly for them to come over here every fortnight - airline sponsorship ? Also the Canadian winter might play havoc with fixtures.

A South African team is not going to happen unless it's going to be some sort of composite pick up team playing in their off-season.

I remember something called the WRU Challenge Trophy with teams from Canada playing in it.

It's funny how the same old mistakes are being made.

I hope Anayi doesn't become another David Moffatt - big smashing ideas that tend to smash against the rocks of their very creation.

Another caution would be 'The Rugby Paper'.  It seemed to have a dog in the race during the European rugby debates.  Did all their stories (often quoted here) prove true in the end?

So a risk of spoof - especially considering that the plan seems to be a sudden spectacular step-up from plans already spoken about by Anayi that seem far less adventurous; baby steps rather than outright revolution.

SecretFly wrote:I hope Anayi doesn't become another David Moffatt - big smashing ideas that tend to smash against the rocks of their very creation.

Another caution would be 'The Rugby Paper'.  It seemed to have a dog in the race during the European rugby debates.  Did all their stories (often quoted here) prove true in the end?

So a risk of spoof - especially considering that the plan seems to be a sudden spectacular step-up from plans already spoken about by Anayi that seem far less adventurous; baby steps rather than outright revolution.

Very true, Fly.

However, it appears to be a logical extension of going down the conference/pool route which Anayi has been championing amongst the PRO 12 heads.

One long-term benefit of converting from league to conference structure is the ability to add in other teams in the future.

So in the short-term, from 2018 season is being talked about, the league would split into two conferences/pools.  It would appear that Anayi is advocating a split of 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian, whereas Welsh regions may want the conferences to be country-led i.e. 4 Welsh in one pool with 1 Scottish and 1 Italian, and 4 Irish in the other.  Longer-term, another pool could be created with different team mixes to allow for N American and S African teams.

Another "report" said that FIRA want to add in a third Italian team, to some amusement/gin spluttering by the supposed 'cognoscenti'.

Rumours have it that Italy want to add a third team to the Pro12.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/south-african-sides-set-to-join-pro-12/

LordDowlais wrote:Rumours have it that Italy want to add a third team to the Pro12.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/south-african-sides-set-to-join-pro-12/

Isn't that article 3 months old?

You do wonder what whacky idea the Pro12 press machine will come up with next though to initiate false hope in a desperate attempt to make people think that the league has a modicum of competency .

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Rumours have it that Italy want to add a third team to the Pro12.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/south-african-sides-set-to-join-pro-12/

Isn't that article 3 months old?

You do wonder what whacky idea the Pro12 press machine will come up with next though to initiate false hope in a desperate attempt to make people think that the league  has a modicum of competency .

Yeah it is old, I was just reading it on that site today though, I did not take the older stories that seriously, but if the Saffas are now looking at it, it might have legs. I also checked through this thread to see if anybody mentioned it, they hadn't so I thought I would.

For me, the main sticking point in the Pro12 is the refereeing situation. We need a team of independent refs employed by the league, not the unions. It's the only fair way of doing it.

LordDowlais wrote:
For me, the main sticking point in the Pro12 is the refereeing situation. We need a team of independent refs employed by the league, not the unions. It's the only fair way of doing it.

And that would improve income, the level playing field, the teams' squads, facilities and the ability to close the gap between the French and English?

Dai Llewod wrote:And that would improve income, the level playing field, the teams' squads, facilities and the ability to close the gap between the French and English?

No. But it would improve the atmosphere of the league, and accusations of the Irish teams bringing their own refs with them. It would be a starter. When the league is viewed in a better light by it's fans, then perhaps we could start marketing it better.

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
For me, the main sticking point in the Pro12 is the refereeing situation. We need a team of independent refs employed by the league, not the unions. It's the only fair way of doing it.

And that would improve income, the level playing field, the teams' squads, facilities and the ability to close the gap between the French and English?

Well Phil, the poor refereeing diminishes the product and its value in the eyes of the fans, advertisers etc meaning the league is worth less. Improving the officiating means an opportunity to increase revenue through ticket sales, advertising and tv which means more money to spread around.

Its not an overnight thing but has a long term benefit

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
For me, the main sticking point in the Pro12 is the refereeing situation. We need a team of independent refs employed by the league, not the unions. It's the only fair way of doing it.

And that would improve income, the level playing field, the teams' squads, facilities and the ability to close the gap between the French and English?

Well Phil, the poor refereeing diminishes the product and its value in the eyes of the fans, advertisers etc meaning the league is worth less. Improving the officiating means an opportunity to increase revenue through ticket sales, advertising and tv which means more money to spread around.

Its not an overnight thing but has a long term benefit

Phil? I don't know who Phil is. I think you could have 15 clones of the best referees in the world and it wouldn't address the real issues of the league. It would be a nice starter, granted but it's just a drop in the ocean when compared to the real issues.

marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, the poor refereeing diminishes the product and its value in the eyes of the fans, advertisers etc meaning the league is worth less. Improving the officiating means an opportunity to increase revenue through ticket sales, advertising and tv which means more money to spread around.

So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

I doubt if any advertiser gives a monkeys about the standard of refereeing - I agree that the lack (or perceived lack) of attendance doesn't help but it's not down to the referees.

Irish Londoner wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, the poor refereeing diminishes the product and its value in the eyes of the fans, advertisers etc meaning the league is worth less. Improving the officiating means an opportunity to increase revenue through ticket sales, advertising and tv which means more money to spread around.

So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

I doubt if any advertiser gives a monkeys about the standard of refereeing - I agree that the lack (or perceived lack) of attendance doesn't help but it's not down to the referees.

The premier league has good standards, just a lot of complaining

Irish Londoner wrote:So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

Because there is not a clash of nationalities within the Premier League, they are all English refs, reffing English teams. I know, I know. They are all professionals and they should all act professionally, I get it. But it does not take away the accusations. This is a simple fix as well. If this was done, you would see a massive cloud lifted off the Pro12.

You mean the Aviva? Strictly speaking, though he comes under the RFU, there is at least 1 Irishman and still accusations of bias.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You mean the Aviva? Strictly speaking, though he comes under the RFU, there is at least 1 Irishman and still accusations of bias.

To who, London Irish ? That won't be a problem this season.

LordDowlais wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:And that would improve income, the level playing field, the teams' squads, facilities and the ability to close the gap between the French and English?

No. But it would improve the atmosphere of the league, and accusations of the Irish teams bringing their own refs with them. It would be a starter. When the league is viewed in a better light by it's fans, then perhaps we could start marketing it better.

The Welsh bring their own refs with them, as do the Scottish, etc etc.

The league is viewed in a better light by its fans. Over 330,000 turned up at PRO 12 league games last season in Wales. And let's be blunt - it was a Poopie season comparatively for Welsh regions.

I'm willing to take a wager that that number will be exceeded this coming season.

Connacht did a lot for promoting the league last season given where they came from. Hopefully, that sets a positive target for every other team to pursue in the season ahead.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You mean the Aviva? Strictly speaking, though he comes under the RFU, there is at least 1 Irishman and still accusations of bias.

To who, London Irish ? That won't be a problem this season.

The accusations are always there no matter what. Just helps some to cope with their teams perfomances and results.

Pot Hale wrote:Not sure if this story got picked up already from last May about possible Pro 12 changes:

PLANS are being drawn up to revolutionise the Pro 12 from an international competition into an inter-continental one by including teams from North America and South Africa.

Extending the frontiers across the Atlantic in one direction and to the Springbok heartlands in another is only part of an overall strategy aimed at transforming the Celtic League into one with enough commercial clout to close the financial gap on the Premiership and Top 14.

One club chairman hailed the proposed revamping of the Pro 12 as ‘sensational.’ “It will do wonders for the game in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and beyond,’’ he said. “Everyone will see that when the project is announced in due course.’’
The prospect of Toronto and New York hosting Canadian and American teams as well as South African franchises appearing in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin will give the tournament a global appeal to enhance TV cash.

The plan is being driven by the Pro 12’s chief executive Martin Anayi and backed by the competition’s chairman, the former Wales and Lions wing Gerald Davies.

Source: The Rugby Paper 15 May 2016

Pot Hale wrote:
However, it appears to be a logical extension of going down the conference/pool route which Anayi has been championing amongst the PRO 12 heads.

One long-term benefit of converting from league to conference structure is the ability to add in other teams in the future.

So in the short-term, from 2018 season is being talked about, the league would split into two conferences/pools.  It would appear that Anayi is advocating a split of 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian, whereas Welsh regions may want the conferences to be country-led i.e. 4 Welsh in one pool with 1 Scottish and 1 Italian, and 4 Irish in the other.  Longer-term, another pool could be created with different team mixes to allow for N American and S African teams.

Another "report" said that FIRA want to add in a third Italian team, to some amusement/gin spluttering by the supposed 'cognoscenti'.

LordDowlais wrote:
Rumours have it that Italy want to add a third team to the Pro12.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/south-african-sides-set-to-join-pro-12/

LordDowlais wrote:Yeah it is old, I was just reading it on that site today though, I did not take the older stories that seriously, but if the Saffas are now looking at it, it might have legs. I also checked through this thread to see if anybody mentioned it, they hadn't so I thought I would.

You must not have checked very hard. LD

Is this your version of Rugby Groundhog Day?

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

Because there is not a clash of nationalities within the Premier League, they are all English refs, reffing English teams. I know, I know. They are all professionals and they should all act professionally, I get it. But it does not take away the accusations. This is a simple fix as well. If this was done, you would see a massive cloud lifted off the Pro12.

So you're saying that referees should come from the same country as the teams they are refereeing ? Would make internationals very interesting !

Or are you really saying that some Welsh fans want to claim that all the woes of Welsh rugby in the PRO12 are back down to the Irish again ? I do think there should be more interchange of referees between the leagues, with PRO12 and Aviva referees moving between the leagues as a learning exercise - would probably also help them at international level as well.

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

Because there is not a clash of nationalities within the Premier League, they are all English refs, reffing English teams. I know, I know. They are all professionals and they should all act professionally, I get it. But it does not take away the accusations. This is a simple fix as well. If this was done, you would see a massive cloud lifted off the Pro12.

So you're saying that referees should come from the same country as the teams they are refereeing ? Would make internationals very interesting !

Or are you really saying that some Welsh fans want to claim that all the woes of Welsh rugby in the PRO12 are back down to the Irish again ? I do think there should be more interchange of referees between the leagues, with PRO12 and Aviva referees moving between the leagues as a learning exercise - would probably also help them at international level as well.

The problem for that is cost, right now the AP just has to pay a set amount for refs expenses if they start bringing refs in from other countries those costs go up. They have no reason to thin the group available to them or pay more to import them

marty2086 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:So why doesn't the often very poor quality of refereeing in the Premier League stop them from getting larger attendances, more advertisers, better TV deals etc ?

Because there is not a clash of nationalities within the Premier League, they are all English refs, reffing English teams. I know, I know. They are all professionals and they should all act professionally, I get it. But it does not take away the accusations. This is a simple fix as well. If this was done, you would see a massive cloud lifted off the Pro12.

So you're saying that referees should come from the same country as the teams they are refereeing ? Would make internationals very interesting !

Or are you really saying that some Welsh fans want to claim that all the woes of Welsh rugby in the PRO12 are back down to the Irish again ? I do think there should be more interchange of referees between the leagues, with PRO12 and Aviva referees moving between the leagues as a learning exercise - would probably also help them at international level as well.

The problem for that is cost, right now the AP just has to pay a set amount for refs expenses if they start bringing refs in from other countries those costs go up. They have no reason to thin the group available to them or pay more to import them

I like the idea about using referees from other countries. Certainly the incremental cost for referees from the Pro12 and Premiership working together can't be too much. Wouldn't have to be every weekend, but perhaps 50% of the matches? Could help make all referees more consistent which makes the game better in the long run.

Pot Hale wrote:

Is this your version of Rugby Groundhog Day?  

A thread about how to improve the Pro12, surely that's 606v2 Groundhog Day?