The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

Sin é wrote:
We know. The Welsh fans & regions did a fine job killing off any possible interest in it.

The future doesn't look good for the Welsh Regions if they don't come up with something fast. With very little European rugby its going to be very hard keeping any of your ambitious players in Wales.

If we're not careful they will go to Bord....oh.

I'm not sure how Welsh fans did a fine job killing off a crap league that was run by blazer dinosaurs, mind you.

profitius wrote:
Its more like a boy who says he doesn't like a girl but keeps pulling her hair and annoying her. The interest is most definitely there otherwise why are you and many others spending countless hours whinging about it?

Welsh TV paid the most money (apart from sky) for the pro 12 TV rights, as you keep reminding us.

The 'interest' shown is simply to generate change. Thankfully, the requirement for change has even hit Dublin. Years too late, but never mind.

Yes, BBC Wales is keeping us afloat.

LordDowlais wrote:
Phil does not speak for ALL us Welsh on here. I like the Pro12, but I think it needs sorting. I would start with the refs.

Remind me of which pro team you have a season ticket for.

PhilBB wrote:Remind me of which pro team you have a season ticket for.

What does that have to do with me liking the Pro12 ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Remind me of which pro team you have a season ticket for.

What does that have to do with me liking the Pro12 ?

It's a measure of how much you like it.

PhilBB wrote:It's a measure of how much you like it.

Phil, you have a serious problem.

Why does how much I like it make a difference ?

I do not have a season ticket because I cherry pick what games I watch.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

That sounds like they are regionalising it to operate similarly to the way the Irish Provinces operate.

With private owners.

One hundred private investors

11 directors.

Italian Rugby Union will remain Zebre's first sponsor  


Sounds like the Munster/Leinster/Ulster Branch of the IRFU to me

They sold 96% to private backers.

How the hell is that like the branches of the IRFU?

I invested in Vodafone shares. That does not mean I own it and I certainly don't control it.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:It's a measure of how much you like it.

Phil, you have a serious problem.

Why does how much I like it make a difference ?

I do not have a season ticket because I cherry pick what games I watch.

Excellent, which have you been to this season?

Sin é wrote:
I invested in Vodafone shares. That does not mean I own it and I certainly don't control it.

The Union sold 96% of Zebre.

Please explain how that is like the Irish branches.

Or, just admit you're talking out of your hoop.

So is Zebre the future then. Private owners rather than blazers should be bringing huge success?

PhilBB wrote:Excellent, which have you been to this season?

Why ? What difference does it make ?

But just to indulge you.

I have been to a few Blues games, a few Ospreys games, and one or two Dragons games, and I went to about 2 Scarlets games at the start of the season, when it was still caravan season in West Wales. But what difference this makes is beyond me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So is Zebre the future then. Private owners rather than blazers should be bringing huge success?

Just like at Newcastle.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I invested in Vodafone shares. That does not mean I own it and I certainly don't control it.

The Union sold 96% of Zebre.

Please explain how that is like the Irish branches.

Or, just admit you're talking out of your hoop.

I keep laughing at this concept that the more successful unit of the Pro12, that allegedly never tries to compete in Pro12, keeps having to defend its ancient methods of admin to a guy who doesn't care.

What was that song?  How Bizarre.

LordDowlais wrote:
I have been to a few Blues games, a few Ospreys games, and one or two Dragons games, and I went to about 2 Scarlets games at the start of the season, when it was still caravan season in West Wales. But what difference this makes is beyond me.

Great stuff.

I admit, it is difficult to remember whether you go to Rodney Parade once or twice.

SecretFly wrote:

I keep laughing at this concept that the more successful unit of the Pro12, that allegedly never tries to compete in Pro12, keeps having to defend it's ancient methods of admin to a guy who doesn't care.

What was that song?  How Bizarre.

Hang on, who on here is working for the IRFU and defending "it's ancient methods of admin".

I didn't know any IRFU employees were posting on here. Which / who is it / are they?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So is Zebre the future then. Private owners rather than blazers should be bringing huge success?

Just like at Newcastle.

Newcastle haven't been that successful recently. Guess it's not all to do with private owners bringing success then.

Phil...don't try to toy with me on semantics....

I repeat...for the hard of hearing...

I keep laughing at this concept that the more successful unit of the Pro12, that allegedly never tries to compete in Pro12, keeps having to defend its ancient methods of admin to a guy who doesn't care.

What was that song? How Bizarre.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Newcastle haven't been that successful recently. Guess it's not all to do with private owners bringing success then.

Oh, I thought that every privately owned team was automatically successful, rather than understanding that the limited pot of union money is now insufficient to keep up with the best in Europe.

What an easy mistake to make.

SecretFly wrote:Phil...don't try to toy with me on semantics....

I repeat...for the hard of hearing...

I keep laughing at this concept that the more successful unit of the Pro12, that allegedly never tries to compete in Pro12, keeps having to defend its ancient methods of admin to a guy who doesn't care.

What was that song?  How Bizarre.

What's bizarre is claiming that the IRFU is "having to defend" anything. Talk about a straw man.

As the IRFU isn't defending anything, it's just another sign of your willingness to write nothing but inaccurate, unfunny tripe.

Do you own a Rugby Club, Phil?

SecretFly wrote:Do you own a Rugby Club, Phil?

Four.

Interesting. Which ones?

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I have been to a few Blues games, a few Ospreys games, and one or two Dragons games, and I went to about 2 Scarlets games at the start of the season, when it was still caravan season in West Wales. But what difference this makes is beyond me.

Great stuff.

I admit, it is difficult to remember whether you go to Rodney Parade once or twice.

FFS Phil, it's a figure of speach. I watched the following games in Newport:-

Munster
Cardiff
Ospreys
Scarlets

Please do not ask me the dates, I cannot remember.

SecretFly wrote:Interesting.  Which ones?

Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster.

I'm using the Sin e method of counting ownership.

LordDowlais wrote:


FFS Phil, it's a figure of speech

Phil don't like figures in speech. He wants no allusions, metaphors, similes, irony, satire, parody or unfunny stuff. He feels threatened by those things - thinks they're out to ambush him.

Phil always has his back to the wall when they show up.

LordDowlais wrote:
Munster
Cardiff
Ospreys
Scarlets

Please do not ask me the dates, I cannot remember.

Good for you. Rugby needs more folk like you.

SecretFly wrote:
Phil don't like figures in speech.  He wants no allusions, metaphors, similes, irony, satire, parody or unfunny stuff.  He feels threatened by those things - thinks they're out to ambush him.

Phil always has his back to the wall when they show up.

Fair play, you do play well the cross between Father Jack and Eric Cantona.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Interesting.  Which ones?

Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster.

I'm using the Sin e method of counting ownership.

Nice joke. Now try your own ultra serious method..... which ones?

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Interesting.  Which ones?

Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster.

I'm using the Sin e method of counting ownership.

Nice joke.  Now try your own ultra serious method.....  which ones?

I have no humour. I don't do jokes.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Phil don't like figures in speech.  He wants no allusions, metaphors, similes, irony, satire, parody or unfunny stuff.  He feels threatened by those things - thinks they're out to ambush him.

Phil always has his back to the wall when they show up.

Fair play, you do play well the cross between Father Jack and Eric Cantona.

which ones?

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Phil don't like figures in speech.  He wants no allusions, metaphors, similes, irony, satire, parody or unfunny stuff.  He feels threatened by those things - thinks they're out to ambush him.

Phil always has his back to the wall when they show up.

Fair play, you do play well the cross between Father Jack and Eric Cantona.

which ones?

The stinking drunk and the bloke in the press conference trying to fool the media.

PhilBB wrote:Good for you. Rugby needs more folk like you.

The regions need all the support they can get, people are not exactly banging on the doors to get into the grounds are they ?

LordDowlais wrote:

The regions need all the support they can get, people are not exactly banging on the doors to get into the grounds are they ?

For a number of games, I've seen people banging on the gates to get out.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Phil don't like figures in speech.  He wants no allusions, metaphors, similes, irony, satire, parody or unfunny stuff.  He feels threatened by those things - thinks they're out to ambush him.

Phil always has his back to the wall when they show up.

Fair play, you do play well the cross between Father Jack and Eric Cantona.

which ones?

The stinking drunk and the bloke in the press conference trying to fool the media.

Are you sure I haven't seen you at the Edinburgh Fringe???

PhilBB wrote:For a number of games, I've seen people banging on the gates to get out.

I have witnessed that just once this season. Ospreys V Munster. It was not due to the quality of rugby, rather more to do with the standard of refereeing and people getting up shaking their heads and saying they cannot sit there and watch such inept, biased refereeing anymore. 

I swear I witnessed it happening with my own eyes, and hears. Refs in the Pro12 are turning fans away.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Newcastle haven't been that successful recently. Guess it's not all to do with private owners bringing success then.

Oh, I thought that every privately owned team was automatically successful, rather than understanding that the limited pot of union money is now insufficient to keep up with the best in Europe.

What an easy mistake to make.

Rather than there are several ways to skin a cat.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:For a number of games, I've seen people banging on the gates to get out.

I have witnessed that just once this season. Ospreys V Munster. It was not due to the quality of rugby, rather more to do with the standard of refereeing and people getting up shaking their heads and saying they cannot sit there and watch such inept, biased refereeing anymore. 

I swear I witnessed it happening with my own eyes, and hears. Refs in the Pro12 are turning fans away.

Deadly Dudley, that was.

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/referee_games.php?refereeID=27&season=2015-2016

Interesting record for the season.

The away wins were Munster in Zebre, Montpellier in Calvisano, Llanelli in Treviso, Ulster in Newport, Llanelli in Zebre and the one you witnessed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rather than there are several ways to skin a cat.

Sure, but I'm yet to read how the Union owned teams can access the necessary increased income under their present ownership model

You show us the way, Phil.  Let Welsh Regions show us the way.  That's what it's all about - learning as we go.

When we're looking up rather than down, and have nothing in our media about the Pro12 final...then we might have to say: "we better get after these Welsh boys.  Our system needs changing."

Well there's no real way anyone can compete with the French if they want to throw money.

I was watching a bit of RL last night and it ocured to me there are a lot of similarities between the pro12 and the position English RL has found its self in in recent years(decades) - i.e. trying to survive and grow surrounded by much wealthier competitors - namely the NRL and RU, and being based mainly in relatively smaller populations and lower levels of affluence (Leeds being the exception).

I think the pro 12 could work with the likes of the SL to try and come up with creative ways to stand out and grow the product outside it's traditional areas, which offer limited prospects for growth - for example playing games in different locations - perhaps at London Welsh or Irish to try and attract a wider fan base or perhaps even in Liverpool, Newcastle or Manchester, which have a lot of ex-pat Irish and are commutable for locations Scots and Welsh.

Hopefully O'Shea can sort the Italians out, because that's were most growth potential is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well there's no real way anyone can compete with the French if they want to throw money.

Are you sure? It's only a €10m wage bill, not much more than the Irish have been paying for a while.

It will only take another €3m or so at Leinster etc.

Easy to achieve with the correct backing.

rodders wrote:
Hopefully O'Shea can sort the Italians out, because that's were most growth potential is.

Yes, if Italy could be cracked - there is potential growth but not just that. They'd also, I'm certain, play with a lot of Latin élan if their systems of conditioning improved and more young athletes were encouraged into the game by what they see.

The Pro12 final should have been played there. And it should be played there for five straight years in my opinion - becoming an Event their rugby followers expect and can attach marketing to; and it would allow them to feel more an integral part of the 'family'. Yes, not exactly easy or cheap for fans to travel to but if we wanted to 'assist' Italy and widen the 'potential earning scope' then sacrifices need to be at least considered.

Right now Italian sides are both struggling on the field, off the field - AND not feeling a whole lot of 'love' from some of their partners either. Nothing new for some of us. But when you're down and only get taunts thrown at you, you're not going to be too enthusiastic.

So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

SecretFly wrote:You show us the way, Phil.  Let Welsh Regions show us the way.  That's what it's all about - learning as we go.

When we're looking up rather than down, and have nothing in our media about the Pro12 final...then we might have to say: "we better get after these Welsh boys.  Our system needs changing."

Excellent. The PrO'12 is now the barometer.

That'll clear Munster's debt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Browne indicates around €12m but I'm sure that Leinster spend more than that in total.

So, the English cap is just over €7m. They are spending roughly the same. Now the Irish can't outspend, they aren't winning.

So they are outspending the vast majority of the English already, who in turn don't match the top French. So whats your point?

"You show us the way, Phil. Let Welsh Regions show us the way. That's what it's all about - learning as we go.

When we're looking up rather than down, and have nothing in our media about the Pro12 final...then we might have to say: "we better get after these Welsh boys. Our system needs changing."



I keep having to repeat myself for this guy.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:So they are outspending the vast majority of the English already, who in turn don't match the top French. So whats your point?

WTF? You're claiming the 'vast majority' of English clubs don't spend to the salary cap?

Give over.

SecretFly wrote:"You show us the way, Phil.  Let Welsh Regions show us the way.  That's what it's all about - learning as we go.

When we're looking up rather than down, and have nothing in our media about the Pro12 final...then we might have to say: "we better get after these Welsh boys.  Our system needs changing."



I keep having to repeat myself for this guy.....

Jack, put the bottle down. See the reply at 10:15