The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

SecretFly wrote:They are under one boss!  He's English I believe??  Seems he hasn't being doing too well at all given the continuing moans and groans from the usual suspects.

Ah, and in this case an unusual suspect, as I have not heard a Glaswegian ever complain about it before reading that blog.

marty2086 wrote:They complain about Irish/Welsh/Scottish refs making decisions in favour of teams from their country not on the same payroll, that's a perception problem which will never go away it will just quieten down.

Yes but at least we could be more confident that an independent organisation will reprimand the decision making fairly.

But please, just ignore everything else I have written.

LordDowlais wrote:I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

LD - Have I missed a link?

You say at the start

LordDowlais wrote:I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them.

The first link is about ditching the Italians.
The second link is about more running rugby.

Unless I am missing a link about the standard of referees, you are not using the media to create a discussion - it is in fact only you who is raising the issue again.  

Considering the relevant links:
On the Italian issue, I disagree with Jiffy. It is true that it doesn't do them any good getting tanked every week. The answer isn't to drop them though as that will just make them fall further behind and their national team as well. Instead the PRO12 should recruit more teams and run a conference league. The Italians would then have some teams to achieve success against and that would build their fans, while still having matches against the better teams to show them the standard they need to aspire to. The additional teams may be whipping boys for a season or two but some would rise to the challenge and they would have an outlet to develop their professional players and so improve their Test standard. The existing celtic teams would have more opportunity for marketing over a much broader range of countries and hopefully grow interest in Italy which is a massive potential market with more. There would also be a foundation for a two division League that hinders the standard going forward.

Guscott is the perfect example of someone who should keep his mouth closed - many think he is a fool but by opening his mouth he often proves it. If the number of Internationals on show is his criterion then the PRO12 is already better viewing fare than the AP and T14, with more current Test players on the pitch in most matches. On the one hand he says that Internationals should play more games and then OTOH he says the U20s should get more opportunities and bring their running style to the League - unless he is proposing more than 15 on the pitch at the same time, there seems to be a fairly obvious flaw in his logic?

Lord...you are delusional if you assume Loyalty of refs will automatically go to this entity called Pro12 just because this entity Pro12 pays their wages.

Who is Pro12.... four rival National entities - that's what it is.  They'll all have a say in the ref debates.  

Irish ref has a 'considered bad' game with a Welsh team.  Welsh fans cry for blood.  Pro12 have inquisition.  Welsh head of the Ref division (Pro 12 Ref Boss) threatens to suspend Irish ref with no pay.  

Irish contingent of Pro12 say "Over our dead bodies will you isolate one of our refs for such punishment.  Now, revise your sanction, say it was a natural error for a ref to make, support your refs and let's move on sensibly or we'll make things awkward in divisions of Pro12 where we have the 'boss' badge."

That's the reality.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:They complain about Irish/Welsh/Scottish refs making decisions in favour of teams from their country not on the same payroll, that's a perception problem which will never go away it will just quieten down.

Yes but at least we could be more confident that an independent organisation will reprimand the decision making fairly.

But please, just ignore everything else I have written.

So now its about making sure they are getting a good telling off?

LordDowlais wrote: Also, if a Welsh ref makes a mistake in favour of a Welsh side I doubt he will get as much of a rollocking from the WRU as he would off an independent boss.

This is all perception, not fact. You are assuming a bad call in favour of a team from the same country wouldn't get a slap on the wrist when in fact it could be as bad as or worse if it was against them.

All the unions are stakeholders in the league and benefit from its success, anything that hurts the league hurts them

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They are under one boss!  He's English I believe??  Seems he hasn't being doing too well at all given the continuing moans and groans from the usual suspects.

Ah, and in this case an unusual suspect, as I have not heard a Glaswegian ever complain about it before reading that blog.

Chunky having fun with a Scottish accent???

marty2086 wrote:They complain about Irish/Welsh/Scottish refs making decisions in favour of teams from their country not on the same payroll, that's a perception problem which will never go away it will just quieten down.

Not just that mind. There are also grumbles about 'neutral refs' who can effect the outcome of the league table. For instance, say the last round of the weekend sees the Scarlets either needing to win in Ulster, or have Munster lose in Glasgow, to make the RCC. And the ref in the Glasgow v Munster match happens to be Nigel Davies, who refs Munster off the park. He was a neutral in that game, yet he would have put the Scarlets into the RCC at the expense of someone else. I have heard, and even made, grumbles about it appearing that way with some refs already this season (admittedly I have also re-watched some matches and taken that back, Clownshoes last weekend for example was just crap, not bias as I first though).

Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

The Great Aukster wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, .....

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly ......http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

LD - Have I missed a link?

You say at the start

LordDowlais wrote:I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them.

The first link is about ditching the Italians.
The second link is about more running rugby.

Unless I am missing a link about the standard of referees, you are not using the media to create a discussion - it is in fact only you who is raising the issue again.  ...........

Here is the link that you missed out on,  

LordDowlais wrote:This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

It is in the middle of page three along with another link from Pot Hale about English clubs.

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They are under one boss!  He's English I believe??  Seems he hasn't being doing too well at all given the continuing moans and groans from the usual suspects.

Ah, and in this case an unusual suspect, as I have not heard a Glaswegian ever complain about it before reading that blog.

Chunky having fun with a Scottish accent???

Most 'chunkies' I know have Scottish accents

LordDowlais wrote:Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

I'm discussing Lord. Go easy on the tar and feathers...messy old stuff.

I want to win the internet

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

I'm discussing Lord.  Go easy on the tar and feathers...messy old stuff.

Also, I don't get this 'trying to win the internet thing'. Why would you want to? I have seen the internet and it looks pretty much like a shoe box painted black with a red LED on top. Its a pretty poor prize, not really worth winning.

marty2086 wrote:This is all perception, not fact. You are assuming a bad call in favour of a team from the same country wouldn't get a slap on the wrist when in fact it could be as bad as or worse if it was against them.

Yes but we would be more confident if it was an independent organisation doing it wouldn't we ? look at how many times we have heard of favourable citings when the own nation are the ones doing it. 

marty2086 wrote:All the unions are stakeholders in the league and benefit from its success, anything that hurts the league hurts them

Well that just strengthens what I am saying.

LordDowlais wrote:Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

They are being discussed, if your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny that's your problem

Munchkin wrote:I want to win the internet

Here congrats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKxtn4NIDk

I wouldn't want it coz'n you'd be forced to let the Kardassians stay on it (by their billions upon billion fanbase innit), when ultimately as new Owner, I'd primarily want to ban each and every one of them for life.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:This is all perception, not fact. You are assuming a bad call in favour of a team from the same country wouldn't get a slap on the wrist when in fact it could be as bad as or worse if it was against them.

Yes but we would be more confident if it was an independent organisation doing it wouldn't we ? look at how many times we have heard of favourable citings when the own nation are the ones doing it. 

marty2086 wrote:All the unions are stakeholders in the league and benefit from its success, anything that hurts the league hurts them

Well that just strengthens what I am saying.

It doesn't strengthen what you are saying it contradicts it

Yes citings are complained about but how many of those decisions in similar situations are replicated elsewhere? Fans are blinkered, I have done the same myself and Ive disagreed with many of them but again its about perception. Yes changing the perception would be good but look at the 6Ns Mike Browns lack of citing was independent yet there was accusations of bias

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I want to win the internet

Here congrats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKxtn4NIDk

Seen that episode. Very funny

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I want to win the internet

Here congrats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKxtn4NIDk

Seen that episode. Very funny

I wanted to post just a picture, but I don't know how. I would call for technical support, but they will only say to turn it off and then on again.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

They are being discussed, if your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny that's your problem

Who is arguing ?

See this is your problem, why is everything an argument ?

maybe that's the problem all along, Lord.

When people say they want to argue with you, you think they mean 'fight'?

Ah, it's becoming clearer. The mixed-interpretations is what caused all of the last three or four years on 606.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Always the same people trying to win the internet rather than just discussing anything.

They are being discussed, if your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny that's your problem

Who is arguing ?

See this is your problem, why is everything an argument ?

argument

/ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt/

noun: argument; plural noun: arguments

1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
"I've had an argument with my father"


2. a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.

Why do things have to be complicated with you.

If you want it simplified, then I meant point of view

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I want to win the internet

Here congrats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKxtn4NIDk

Seen that episode. Very funny

I wanted to post just a picture, but I don't know how.  I would call for technical support, but they will only say to turn it off and then on again.

Ha! and the irony is that it usually works. Well, for me anyway

marty2086 wrote:It doesn't strengthen what you are saying it contradicts it

no it doesn't. If the unions benefit from the success of the league, then surely they could be telling "their own refs" what to do, to make sure that their teams are getting the most success out of it.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It doesn't strengthen what you are saying it contradicts it

no it doesn't. If the unions benefit from the success of the league, then surely they could be telling "their ow refs" what to do, to make sure that their teams are getting the most success out of it.

That's a theory, but not one that is supported with the evidence, as already provided on these forums.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It doesn't strengthen what you are saying it contradicts it

no it doesn't. If the unions benefit from the success of the league, then surely they could be telling "their ow refs" what to do, to make sure that their teams are getting the most success out of it.

The success of the league not their teams, the league isn't helped by poor officiating sure you keep telling us of Moses leading the masses to the car park because of referees and not coming back how does that benefit?

How do they sell the league to broadcasters and sponsors with poor standards and disappearing crowds not to mention editorials criticising them?

Getting a bigger piece of a small pie isn't as good as getting a small or potentially big piece of a larger pie(hope Im not making anyone hungry here)

It doesn't exactly help players if they are winning by crooked means then stepping up to test level and have a level playing field either

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It doesn't strengthen what you are saying it contradicts it

no it doesn't. If the unions benefit from the success of the league, then surely they could be telling "their own refs" what to do, to make sure that their teams are getting the most success out of it.

So...Munster TELL their refs what the score should be? And the payment is the ref's wages?

If Munster didn't TELL their refs what to do, the refs would remain unbiased and no Welsh supporter would ever feel inclined to say the Irish ref screwed them over?

So the new way will mean that Pro12 would pay the wages. The refs wouldn't be intimidated into acting totally illegally just to get their wages. And Munster in-the-know-lads, with extra cash for contingency plans, wouldn't ever get the Irish ref's phone number and arrange a meeting in O'Sullivan's pub to discuss where the extra cash might be dropped in return for a certain blood-brother favour? If money talks, it talks. Does it?


You're too pure of spirit, Lord. That's your problem. You're much much too nice to contemplate the bad things in life

Munchkin wrote:
Still employed by the WRU though, and it's the WRU that the Regions are affiliated to. Reading this article below, I can't see much difference between how they and the Irish refs work with their respective Unions:

Welsh refs don't ref their colleagues. That's all.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Still employed by the WRU though, and it's the WRU that the Regions are affiliated to. Reading this article below, I can't see much difference between how they and the Irish refs work with their respective Unions:

Welsh refs don't ref their colleagues. That's all.

Heard that BS before, probably only from you. That is all.

Munchkin wrote:

Heard that BS before, probably only from you. That is all.

That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Still employed by the WRU though, and it's the WRU that the Regions are affiliated to. Reading this article below, I can't see much difference between how they and the Irish refs work with their respective Unions:

Welsh refs don't ref their colleagues. That's all.

colleague

/ˈkɒliːɡ/

noun

noun: colleague; plural noun: colleagues

a person with whom one works in a profession or business.

So the NDCs aren't paid by the WRU?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Heard that BS before, probably only from you. That is all.

That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue.

BS. Another one of your 'facts', Phil?......You're such a parody.

marty2086 wrote:
So the NDCs aren't paid by the WRU?  

Only 60%. Those players have two employers.

Stupid system, isn't it?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So the NDCs aren't paid by the WRU?  

Only 60%. Those players have two employers.

Stupid system, isn't it?

Munchkin wrote:
BS. Another one of your 'facts', Phil?......You're such a parody.

Cheers. I didn't realise that you were so clued up on Welsh rugby circles.

Are you doing that all from Ireland?

There's a wonderful lack of self awareness in the stereotype of you labelling others a parody, mind you. It's delicious.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So the NDCs aren't paid by the WRU?  

Only 60%. Those players have two employers.

Stupid system, isn't it?

So they are part time colleagues? Maybe they are only 60% bias rather than 100% like the Irish then?

marty2086 wrote:
So they are part time colleagues? Maybe they are only 60% bias rather than 100% like the Irish then?

I don't think that the refs are intentionally biased but reffing colleagues will be affected by natural human emotions.

Contrast that with Kevin Friend.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
BS. Another one of your 'facts', Phil?......You're such a parody.

Cheers. I didn't realise that you were so clued up on Welsh rugby circles.

Are you doing that all from Ireland?

There's a wonderful lack of self awareness in the stereotype of you labelling others a parody, mind you. It's delicious.

Ha! because to be really clued up on the facts in a particular country I have to live there, right?

So, according to your own logic, you have no right to claim knowledge about anything happening in Ireland, because you don't live here. Well done

I thought that the payment of the DC in Wales was a way of the WRU paying for the use of the players that the regions have spent and invested a lot of time and money into getting them up to the standards needed for international rugby. Are we saying the WRU should get these players for nowt, and the regions keep paying their wages when they are with team Wales ?

The DC are a sort of way of renting the players from their regions, by doing this the WRU can get access to them when they feel the need to. They are not employed by the WRU.


There is a big difference, the WRU do not pay the wages of the whole set-up.

Munchkin wrote:
Ha! because to be really clued up on the facts in a particular country I have to live there, right?  

So, according to your own logic, you have no right to claim knowledge about anything happening in Ireland, because you don't live here. Well done

No, no. I was just wondering on how you were able to counter the claim that Irish refs reffing their colleagues is an issue in Wales.

Is it because you're unaware of it so, therefore, it can't be happening?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So they are part time colleagues? Maybe they are only 60% bias rather than 100% like the Irish then?

I don't think that the refs are intentionally biased but reffing colleagues will be affected by natural human emotions.

Contrast that with Kevin Friend.

That was a stupid call as supported by pretty much everyone except the guy who took it, why would getting a pay cheque from the same organisation create an emotion for someone?

LordDowlais wrote:I thought that the payment of the DC in Wales was a way of the WRU paying for the use of the players that the regions have spent and invested a lot of time and money into getting them up to the standards needed for international rugby. Are we saying the WRU should get these players for nowt, and the regions keep paying their wages when they are with team Wales ?

The DC are a sort of way of renting the players from their regions, by doing this the WRU can get access to them when they feel the need to. They are not employed by the WRU.

WTF?

The NDC doesn't provide the WRU with any mechanism to get the holder 'up to the standards needed for international rugby'.

You're absolutely bloody clueless. The Annual Report from the WRU shows that the players with NDCs are primarily employed by the WRU. It's in writing, you bloody fool.

The rest of the players in Team Wales are rented by the WRU. That's what they pay money for.

You really have just shown that you have no idea as to how any of this works.

marty2086 wrote:

That was a stupid call as supported by pretty much everyone except the guy who took it, why would getting a pay cheque from the same organisation create an emotion for someone?

Friend is already barred from refereeing Leicester.

Nigel Owens can't referee Wales.

Can you think why?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Ha! because to be really clued up on the facts in a particular country I have to live there, right?  

So, according to your own logic, you have no right to claim knowledge about anything happening in Ireland, because you don't live here. Well done

No, no. I was just wondering on how you were able to counter the claim that Irish refs reffing their colleagues is an issue in Wales.

Is it because you're unaware of it so, therefore, it can't be happening?

I was telling you that you were talking BS, that's all. Getting carried away with another of your conspiracy theories, which are usually very thin on substance, and often devoid of fact.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That was a stupid call as supported by pretty much everyone except the guy who took it, why would getting a pay cheque from the same organisation create an emotion for someone?

Friend is already barred from refereeing Leicester.

Nigel Owens can't referee Wales.

Can you think why?

No he's not barred hence why he was appointed in the first place, after just calling someone a fool and clueless you think you'd be more on top of your facts

Munchkin wrote:
I was telling you that you were talking BS, that's all. Getting carried away with another of your conspiracy theories, which are usually very thin on substance, and often devoid of fact.

And I'm asking you to justify your position on calling that as BS. I wrote about conversations in Welsh rugby circles. You called that as BS.

On what grounds? Do tell.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I thought that the payment of the DC in Wales was a way of the WRU paying for the use of the players that the regions have spent and invested a lot of time and money into getting them up to the standards needed for international rugby. Are we saying the WRU should get these players for nowt, and the regions keep paying their wages when they are with team Wales ?

The DC are a sort of way of renting the players from their regions, by doing this the WRU can get access to them when they feel the need to. They are not employed by the WRU.

WTF?

The NDC doesn't provide the WRU with any mechanism to get the holder 'up to the standards needed for international rugby'.

You're absolutely bloody clueless. The Annual Report from the WRU shows that the players with NDCs are primarily employed by the WRU. It's in writing, you bloody fool.

The rest of the players in Team Wales are rented by the WRU. That's what they pay money for.

You really have just shown that you have no idea as to how any of this works.

Oh so I am a fool am I ? How the feck can an organisation employ 60% of one person ? 


You are the fool who lives in a fantasy land where you make your own facts up and think nothing exists outside of your Cardiff utopia.

marty2086 wrote:
No he's not barred hence why he was appointed in the first place, after just calling someone a fool and clueless you think you'd be more on top of your facts

Friend was barred from reffing Tottenham's game. He is barred from reffing Leicester games.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36075347

Now you look as stupid as you did when you couldn't add 17+7. When will you stop putting yourself in this position? Just learn that you're out of your depth when you take me on.

PhillBB ruining another decent debate with his claptrap again.