England v Wales

First topic message reminder :

Anyone know much about the ticket sales for this game?

I may head down for this, however just took a quick peak for tickets and there is only one block available, and not 2 tickets sat together. It can't be sold out already can it?

Anyone know?

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

It's a few years since Wales played out of their skins and I've never seen a complacent NZ team.

Pool stages of the last World Cup?  Playing with the hand-brake on in some games.

Fly, I'm not sure I'd class that as complacency. More like just doing enough and building nicely.

Yeah, of course. But it almost bit them... the cruising and pacing. Sometimes they do take the foot off the peddle and a Welsh team that tastes something in a final quarter wouldn't be the team to try it against.

I suspect Wales will have at least one game where they push New Zealand hard.

englandglory4ever wrote:Youngs was desperately poor. No one seems to mention that he was at the heart of everything that England did badly. Why does he continually slowly pass the ball an allow the opposition defence to come on.

Seems a bit OTT

He took a while to get going, and dropped two simple pick ups but over all he was ok, just needs to cut out the step pre pass and maybe try a few more breaks.

His break up the blindside early in the game and his try were two very good bits of vision and execution

Griff wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Griff wrote:It was only a friendly, we were trying out combinations, our boys didn't want to put too much into it in case they got injured or showed NZ our proper moves and patterns, we wuz 'aving a larff, etc.

A good thought to take with you on your hols, hope you are not going down South though, the blinkers will most likely come off very quickly. Lot of money to pay for a bout of depression.

Oh, and you have been watching too much TOWIE, I live there so believe me I know..................................... horrible.

Please tell me you didn't take my post seriously?!

Only the "we wuz 'aving a larff" bit. Far too many of the locals around here affect such accents as they think that is how the should talk in the London side of Essex. As I said they watch too much TOWIE. Most of them live around here and definitely don't come from this part of the world. Talking like a right plonker because they think it is "KOOL" really winds me up.

Isn't " 'aving a larff" more now simply cultural shorthand for a specific 'attitude' rather than a giggle at a specific accent or place?

These little snippets of supposed 'slang' speech exist all over the world, in all cultures...to denote an attitude.

Think you must be 'aving a larff' taking it a tad so seriously, PAST-IT?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Clifford made a point of making lots of carries. He always made yards. That could be vital in taking the whole duty off Billy.

The impressive thing about Clifford, was that for his try, Scott Williams - a good outside centre - didn't look like catching him.

Alex_Germany wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Clifford made a point of making lots of carries. He always made yards. That could be vital in taking the whole duty off Billy.

The impressive thing about Clifford, was that for his try, Scott Williams - a good outside centre - didn't look like catching him.

Williams was the quickest back in the Welsh squad a few seasons back, not sure about these days.

The thing is yes Clifford's really quick, but I still worry he'll get beasted by the bigger and better international sides out there.

His partnership with Harrison seemed good though, Harrison could do the more physical bits while Clifford used his pace.

I'd still like to see either Itoje or Ewers at 6 though. They'd compliment Harriaon/Clifford pretty well.

Has any one got the stats for Haskell, I barely spotted him most of the game, was he doing the nasty stuff out of the lime light or just off the pace a bit?

thomh wrote:Jonathan Joseph is a bit of a concern for me. Didn't do anything particularly awful, but he's stopped backing himself on the outside. He keeps receiving these bath-style miss passes and then ducking inside rather than trying to step outside his defender. Looks like a bit of confidence has gone.

Compare and contrast his 2015 6 Nations form to this season and there's a real drop off.

Yes I think you're right in terms of loss of confidence but I would add they he's also lost a yard since his world cup injury.

As I recall after his England break through (RSA 2011 from memory?) he suffered injury and loss of form which took a longer than expected period to return.

Perhaps a midfield of Devoto and Burrell/Daly/Te'o with either of Farrell/Ford inside will be the test starters?

Remember Ozy have injury issues at 12 and will probably be playing Folau in the outside channel.

Edit. I keep forgetting Slade.....not sure how he fits in mind as again like others he's not at the top of his form....maybe bench given he can cover 4 positions; half, centre's and fullback.

I know EJ has shown loyalty were he see's fit, but wouldn't it be great for Burrell to do it in OZ?

Shame about Ford leaving 14 points on his peg. Apart from that he was pretty solid imo. Still too many grubber kicks being made. Give the ball wide and re start from the breakdown. We do seem to be making more breaks through tackles under EJ. His fine tuning technique coaching is def paying off.
As for Wales, too many players going through the motions yesterday. Altho I doubt they'll won't be that lacklustre in a few weeks v NZ. The Roberts/Williams centre duo has potential tho. Amos HAS to be Cuthberts replacement..

Breadvan wrote:Shame about Ford leaving 14 points on his peg. Apart from that he was pretty solid imo. Still too many grubber kicks being made. Give the ball wide and re start from the breakdown. We do seem to be making more breaks through tackles under EJ. His fine tuning technique coaching is def paying off.
As for Wales, too many players going through the motions yesterday. Altho I doubt they'll won't be that lacklustre in a few weeks v NZ. The Roberts/Williams centre duo has potential tho. Amos HAS to be Cuthberts replacement..

I can't imagine anyone connected with Welsh rugby; fan, player or coach, will have enjoyed yesterday's game, but surely the team will have benefited from the experience.

Will it be enough to beat NZ? No I don't think anyone believes that but let's hope they find their edge and fully exploit the under dog status.

I was impressed with Mullan, Launchbury, Lawes, Clifford and Watson.

I thought Ball did ok for Wales and Webb had a strong first half. Amos looked sharp as well. Biggar's reaction to the Clifford try was a bit juvenile though.

England were the better side and won with something to spare. The scoreline would have been ugly had Ford brought his kicking boots with him. I'm pleased to hear Jones defending his fly half in the media today. Ford is a classy player and should not be lightly discarded. Whilst being widely recognised as "off form" pretty much all season, he has played 10 throughout England's Grand Slam 6 Nations, and again put in some nice touches yesterday.

yappysnap wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Youngs was desperately poor. No one seems to mention that he was at the heart of everything that England did badly. Why does he continually slowly pass the ball an allow the opposition defence to come on.

Seems a bit OTT

He took a while to get going, and dropped two simple pick ups but over all he was ok, just needs to cut out the step pre pass and maybe try a few more breaks.

His break up the blindside early in the game and his try were two very good bits of vision and execution

Have to disagree regards Youngs. I don't doubt for one moment his commitment to the cause its just that unsurprisingly he is playing like a very tired player. He is slow in thought and action and needs a rest. Sorry but his delivery from the base is glacial.

Take him on tour and stick him on the beach.

Youngs passing has been pretty awful to be fair. His break for the try and set up for Burrell was excellent but his passing is sub-standard. I'm really surprised Robson hasn't been given a shot.

My over ridding thought is that we absolutely must keep yesterday in perspective.

I'll bet you my last 10p that EJ has already brought everyone right back down to earth. Hopefully this morning was cold and ugly and the reality of touring Australia was writ large on the horizon.

Sometimes you have to be nasty.

It was a decent display but no more, Wales made us look better than we actually are.

Farrell needs to come in for Ford and the pack tweaked. Possible Aus lineup:

1. Mullen
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Clifford
7. Haskell
8. Vuinipola

9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Nowell
12. Burrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George 17. Genge 18. Hill 19. Launchbury 20. Harrison 21. Youngs 22. Ford 23. Daly

Looks about right Sarge, but I reckon Te'o will start ahead of Burrell.

Cumbrian wrote:Looks about right Sarge, but I reckon Te'o will start ahead of Burrell.

I neither hope nor think he will, personally

Robshaw will be back also

BTW I am part way watching the game through U-tube and a thought came to mind. We have seen Wales play exactly like this vs England before (start strong then stop for the last 60) but given the low key end to the Welsh Pro12 season and the proximity of the NZ tour are these guys part way through one of those legendary Gatland fitness programs? Might explain the lack of energy.

DaveM wrote:Ford was terrible - I think he crumbled under pressure and shouldn't tour. His game had regressed to the point where he was kicking everything away when he had potential overlaps outside him, and his goal-kicking was unacceptable at any level. Cipriani could do a better job than that, but EJ never has a good word to say about him.

Whilst Ford was poor by his standards I actually felt that game as a whole summed up why he is such a superior fly half to Cips.

At the worst I've seen him in a few of years Ford managed to run an England backline that scored 5 tries and held a comfortable win over Wales. Yes he looked shaky off the tee (something we already knew about him) and there was some disjointed play between 9-10-12 which again with Burrell coming back could have been expected.

His open field kicking whilst regularly too long was never to the point where Wales tore us apart on the counter attack. His touch finders whilst shorter than he's capable of never caused real concern. Finally his distribution and decision making, although tentative at times never caused a disaster. His defence was also solid with him doing his usual understated job of cutting down what he needed too and never shirking responsibility.

Contrast that with Cips at his worst for Sale around mid-season when he was negotiating with Wasps. The guy regularly looked like he didn't want to be on the field, became a liability again for charge down by taking an age with his clearance kicks and he missed touch finders. After even that you then also had his old Achilles heel return with most of his tackles being broken by a light breeze.

I'm a Cipriani fan and would have happily seen him in the squad but to be an international 10 you need to be able to stay solid on your worse days as well as spectacular on your best. Sadly, that's an ability he has never shown consistently.

Perfect response by Eddie Jones after being asked about Ford's kicking. Very good of him to speak highly of Ford, and he did play pretty well to be fair, and to also take the focus off Ford a bit and mention the result. Eddie is dealing the media a whole lot better nowadays.

24 minutes in - right before Dan Lydiate got replaced and Clifford is hacking on (last touch is bad but its irrelevant) Liam Williams stretches the 'standing ground' thing to the limits. Subsequent view maybe isn't so bad but at first glance it did look like he jumped shoulder first into Clifford's face

Lets see how Cipriani handles the Saxon tour. If he is the real deal then this has to be his starting point.

If he can manipulate, what looks on a paper, a pretty decent squad of players to achieve good victories then he will have laid down a marker.

If he gets pished and jumps in front of a bus then we'll know its all over. Equally mediocre won't be good enough.

I just hope he screws his head on the right way as he has more talent than I've seen in any other english 10.

There's still opportunity for him. Play well in Africa, have a good preseason and then lead Wasps to a premiership next year. Surely that will promote his selection?

I think we may see Robshaw slowly losing his place this tour. Harrison & Clifford showed pace, aggression and physicality which Robshaw(despite his huge work rate) lacks.

kingelderfield wrote:

I just hope he screws his head on the right way as he has more talent than I've seen in any other english 10.

Farrell has improced so much this season, I'm not sure if that's the case anymore.

I would have said the same about Ford a year ago, but now I'd have Cips at number 2.

king_carlos wrote:

DaveM wrote:Ford was terrible - I think he crumbled under pressure and shouldn't tour. His game had regressed to the point where he was kicking everything away when he had potential overlaps outside him, and his goal-kicking was unacceptable at any level. Cipriani could do a better job than that, but EJ never has a good word to say about him.

Whilst Ford was poor by his standards I actually felt that game as a whole summed up why he is such a superior fly half to Cips.

At the worst I've seen him in a few of years Ford managed to run an England backline that scored 5 tries and held a comfortable win over Wales. Yes he looked shaky off the tee (something we already knew about him) and there was some disjointed play between 9-10-12 which again with Burrell coming back could have been expected.

His open field kicking whilst regularly too long was never to the point where Wales tore us apart on the counter attack. His touch finders whilst shorter than he's capable of never caused real concern. Finally his distribution and decision making, although tentative at times never caused a disaster. His defence was also solid with him doing his usual understated job of cutting down what he needed too and never shirking responsibility.

Contrast that with Cips at his worst for Sale around mid-season when he was negotiating with Wasps. The guy regularly looked like he didn't want to be on the field, became a liability again for charge down by taking an age with his clearance kicks and he missed touch finders. After even that you then also had his old Achilles heel return with most of his tackles being broken by a light breeze.

I'm a Cipriani fan and would have happily seen him in the squad but to be an international 10 you need to be able to stay solid on your worse days as well as spectacular on your best. Sadly, that's an ability he has never shown consistently.

But that sounds like because Cips had a poor run whilst distracted he can never play for England, no matter what form he's in?

For a FH to kick that badly is unacceptable - that was not Ford staying solid, as in most Test matches kicking like that will cost you the game. If he and Farrell are the matchday FHs, and Brown is the FB, then if Farrell gets taken out in the third minute then we would appear to be stuffed unless Daly is on the bench.

Put it another way - If Cipriani had played like that yesterday I'd say his international career his international career was over.

EJ doesn't appear to be picking his backs based on form. That seems to me to be rather risky.

If Robshaw is allowed to keep his place, with work rate being the key requirement then he could quite easily enough lauded as the next Richard Hill.

If that Italian ref is the start of NH refs following the SH approach of allowing very little competition at the breakdown, then work rate will be the key - like Fardy and Kaino, as the game speeds up in favour of attacking sides with the ball.

offload wrote:

optimist wrote:As a Wales supporter for 60 years, I well remember that, when Wales toured Down Under for the first time in 1969, they went out full of hope as Five Nations champions with some great young players including Gareth Edwards and Barry John.

They beat Australia but were smashed in both tests against the All Blacks. It was reported that many New Zealand fans thought Wales were the worst touring side they'd seen and were disappointed after all the pre-tour hype.

Since then things have gone from bad to worse against New Zealand. Wales's best hope on this tour, though only for the first test match, is that a) they play out of their skins and b) New Zealand are complacent about the opposition.

It's a few years since Wales played out of their skins and I've never seen a complacent NZ team.  England on the other hand have an excellent chance of a series win in Australia.  The mid-field is still not working, but imagine a back five of Kruis, Launchbury, Itoji (6) Vunipola (8) and a good 7, maybe Clifford.  That would be a test for the Aussies.

I did say Wales's "best hope" in New Zealand was a combination of those things - not that they were going to happen!  I agree that England have a better chance against Australia, partly because England's national squad is improving fast and also because playing rugby in Oz isn't as hard as in New Zealand.
Actually, I have seen a complacent New Zealand team - in 1963 when Whineray's touring side were beaten 3-0 by Newport at Rodney Parade. Not taking anything away from Newport, who were great, but the All Blacks came out thinking they'd already won. "I suppose we took them too lightly", was Colin Meads's comment after the defeat.
Will they take Wales too lightly after England's win on Saturday? Maybe.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It was a decent display but no more, Wales made us look better than we actually are.

Farrell needs to come in for Ford and the pack tweaked. Possible Aus lineup:

1. Mullen
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Clifford
7. Haskell
8. Vuinipola

9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Nowell
12. Burrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George 17. Genge 18. Hill 19. Launchbury 20. Harrison 21. Youngs 22. Ford 23. Daly

Not enough play-makers. Farrell will be targeted by the backrow, and who is the second receiver there?

It was another average performance from Brown, mainly involving carrying into traffic not massively effectively. Meanwhile Goode is MoM in the AP final. Goode would improve that side.

Alternatively, Watson to FB, Yarde onto the wing and Daly into OC (or even IC, controversially, with Burrell moving one out when we are in possession).

EJ had clearly decided to take Burrell instead of Devoto before the game yesterday. I thought Burrell was ok, and I don't mind him playing but I'd like to see Daly or Slade outside him to make up for his deficiencies. It looks like it is quite hard for JJ to get himself dropped.

I reckon EJ rates Robshaw, and I'd guess he'll need to miss a game through injury before he is dropped. Itoje, Ewers, Harrison and even Clifford are all interesting options, but I think they'll have to wait. Haskell may be slightly more at risk.

Think it's fine to try Goode, don't think he will end up being anything other than a weakness once again though. He's still not actually good under the high ball or at making tackles, but deserves a chance to show that in this form he can actually apply his running game to an international match rather than it slowing him down just before he gets smashed in a tackle

And I think Daly at IC won't work, he is an OC really and then our midfield is light as **** and we will get smashed in contact

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

DaveM wrote:Ford was terrible - I think he crumbled under pressure and shouldn't tour. His game had regressed to the point where he was kicking everything away when he had potential overlaps outside him, and his goal-kicking was unacceptable at any level. Cipriani could do a better job than that, but EJ never has a good word to say about him.

Whilst Ford was poor by his standards I actually felt that game as a whole summed up why he is such a superior fly half to Cips.

At the worst I've seen him in a few of years Ford managed to run an England backline that scored 5 tries and held a comfortable win over Wales. Yes he looked shaky off the tee (something we already knew about him) and there was some disjointed play between 9-10-12 which again with Burrell coming back could have been expected.

His open field kicking whilst regularly too long was never to the point where Wales tore us apart on the counter attack. His touch finders whilst shorter than he's capable of never caused real concern. Finally his distribution and decision making, although tentative at times never caused a disaster. His defence was also solid with him doing his usual understated job of cutting down what he needed too and never shirking responsibility.

Contrast that with Cips at his worst for Sale around mid-season when he was negotiating with Wasps. The guy regularly looked like he didn't want to be on the field, became a liability again for charge down by taking an age with his clearance kicks and he missed touch finders. After even that you then also had his old Achilles heel return with most of his tackles being broken by a light breeze.

I'm a Cipriani fan and would have happily seen him in the squad but to be an international 10 you need to be able to stay solid on your worse days as well as spectacular on your best. Sadly, that's an ability he has never shown consistently.

But that sounds like because Cips had a poor run whilst distracted he can never play for England, no matter what form he's in?

For a FH to kick that badly is unacceptable - that was not Ford staying solid, as in most Test matches kicking like that will cost you the game. If he and Farrell are the matchday FHs, and Brown is the FB, then if Farrell gets taken out in the third minute then we would appear to be stuffed unless Daly is on the bench.

Put it another way - If Cipriani had played like that yesterday I'd say his international career his international career was over.

EJ doesn't appear to be picking his backs based on form. That seems to me to be rather risky.

It's the fact that Cipriani has had poor runs of form for periods such as that in almost every season he's played that prevents him playing for England. If he wants to be an international 10 he needs to consistently be a better decision maker and tactical kicker.

If a 10 is poor from the tee it can be made up for elsewhere (Farrell/Slade/Daly in the centre for instance). If they struggle to make good decisions or put his side in the right area of the field whilst under pressure then that can't be covered for though. Hence Cips has been overlooked.

Ford's goal kicking was shocking yesterday yes, but him being flaky from the tee is nothing new or that we didn't already know. It's also a reason why Farrell was picked alongside him in the 6 Nations. His tactical kicking and decision making however (even in one of his worst games) was still better than what Cips has often displayed when in decent nick.

EJ will pick on form (i.e. Harrison forcing his way in) but he's also always had a very specific idea of what a player needs to succeed in international rugby. At the minute he clearly thinks there are fly halves who have better basics than Cips to succeed against the best and I frankly agree.

I know there are mixed ratings for Brown but I thought he did OK. Didn't have a busy game but sometimes that happens. Thought he did well with the ball when he did run it back. At least he looked after it and didn't get turned over.

And that's it. If Goode was playing I almost feel like I would have to shut my eyes every time he got the ball, because I expect him to take it into contact and then cough up a turnover.

It might be unkind, and he's certainly done all he can to get another shot with England, but I don't have confidence in him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think we may see Robshaw slowly losing his place this tour. Harrison & Clifford showed pace, aggression and physicality which Robshaw(despite his huge work rate) lacks.

Harrison gave away five penalties, and Clifford is seen by Eddie as a 7 or 8. I know you want to see the back of Robshaw but you may have to dream on a little longer.

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think we may see Robshaw slowly losing his place this tour. Harrison & Clifford showed pace, aggression and physicality which Robshaw(despite his huge work rate) lacks.

Harrison gave away five penalties, and Clifford is seen by Eddie as a 7 or 8. I know you want to see the back of Robshaw but you may have to dream on a little longer.

And he also made 42 metres and beat 3 defenders, something Robshaw would struggle to do. Discipline can be worked on, physicality, pace and aggression less so.

I don't dislike Robshaw, I just think we need better.

king_carlos wrote:

It's the fact that Cipriani has had poor runs of form for periods such as that in almost every season he's played that prevents him playing for England. If he wants to be an international 10 he needs to consistently be a better decision maker and tactical kicker.

If a 10 is poor from the tee it can be made up for elsewhere (Farrell/Slade/Daly in the centre for instance). If they struggle to make good decisions or put his side in the right area of the field whilst under pressure then that can't be covered for though. Hence Cips has been overlooked.

Ford's goal kicking was shocking yesterday yes, but him being flaky from the tee is nothing new or that we didn't already know. It's also a reason why Farrell was picked alongside him in the 6 Nations. His tactical kicking and decision making however (even in one of his worst games) was still better than what Cips has often displayed when in decent nick.

EJ will pick on form (i.e. Harrison forcing his way in) but he's also always had a very specific idea of what a player needs to succeed in international rugby. At the minute he clearly thinks there are fly halves who have better basics than Cips to succeed against the best and I frankly agree.

I see you don't rate Cipriani, which is fine. He'd still have played better than Ford if given the chance. I'd say the basics for a FH include not kicking as poorly as Ford did yesterday and not defaulting to kicking the ball away when he gets it as his confidence fades. The Australians will be right into him if he has to kick. He should be given the summer off.

And I really don't see how you can say the backs are being picked on form - we've several key players who've been poor all season but keep being selected.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think we may see Robshaw slowly losing his place this tour. Harrison & Clifford showed pace, aggression and physicality which Robshaw(despite his huge work rate) lacks.

Harrison gave away five penalties, and Clifford is seen by Eddie as a 7 or 8. I know you want to see the back of Robshaw but you may have to dream on a little longer.

And he also made 42 metres and beat 3 defenders, something Robshaw would struggle to do. Discipline can be worked on, physicality, pace and aggression less so.

I don't dislike Robshaw, I just think we need better.

I thought Harrison and Clifford showed exactly what they are: Young players with potential. Both made nice plays and both had some errors. The very good thing is their errors generally came earlier and they improved throughout. In those first 10-15 minutes everyone in the England squad was not quite switched on. For England the back row is going to be very competitive. Harrison is not guaranteed a starting spot in his own team..........

Robshaw is being outplayed by the new back rowers. Surely he is a bench player at best.

Surely Ford's misses yesterday were totally unacceptable when playing for England at home. We can kiss goodbye to a close win with that performance.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Alex_Germany wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Clifford made a point of making lots of carries. He always made yards. That could be vital in taking the whole duty off Billy.

The impressive thing about Clifford, was that for his try, Scott Williams - a good outside centre - didn't look like catching him.

Williams was the quickest back in the Welsh squad a few seasons back, not sure about these days.

Williams quickest in the Wales squad, you are having a laugh! Maybe quicker than most of the forwards and perhaps Biggar, certainly not known for his pace and bear in mind this was also his second game back from a significant knee injury.

Clifford did look rapid though, even if everyone else had stopped for the knock on!

I'm really struggling to imagine EJ dropping Robshaw this summer:

Robhaw is England's outstanding player

The theory is we need some more pace. If so I suspect Clifford will be given a start at 7 during the series to see how he goes. Presently I'm not expecting Harrison to be involved in the matchday squad unless we take a pasting at the breakdown in one of the early tests.

DaveM wrote:I'm really struggling to imagine EJ dropping Robshaw this summer:

Robhaw is England's outstanding player

The theory is we need some more pace. If so I suspect Clifford will be given a start at 7 during the series to see how he goes. Presently I'm not expecting Harrison to be involved in the matchday squad unless we take a pasting at the breakdown in one of the early tests.

To be fair he said Ford was outstanding yesterday.....

It was a training video that I seen with Williams a few years back, he was the quickest over 40m or something. Possibly not the case now.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Think it's fine to try Goode, don't think he will end up being anything other than a weakness once again though. He's still not actually good under the high ball or at making tackles, but deserves a chance to show that in this form he can actually apply his running game to an international match rather than it slowing him down just before he gets smashed in a tackle

Yep, he deserves a chance. If he doesn't take it then that is his problem. Brown looks a player whose best years are behind him, so if Goode doesn't take shirt it is probably time for Watson to be given a series.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

DaveM wrote:I'm really struggling to imagine EJ dropping Robshaw this summer:

Robhaw is England's outstanding player

The theory is we need some more pace. If so I suspect Clifford will be given a start at 7 during the series to see how he goes. Presently I'm not expecting Harrison to be involved in the matchday squad unless we take a pasting at the breakdown in one of the early tests.

To be fair he said Ford was outstanding yesterday.....

It was a training video that I seen with Williams a few years back, he was the quickest over 40m or something. Possibly not the case now.

True, but he didn't say he'd been our best player over 5 tests. Robshaw was excellent in the 6 Nations. Clearly he is trying to talk Ford up, given that display, as a bit of man-management.

ChequeredJersey wrote:And I think Daly at IC won't work, he is an OC really and then our midfield is light as **** and we will get smashed in contact

Whether the midfield is lightweight depends on who plays 13. If he played between Farrell and Burrell, for instance, there is some presence there.

Daly as 12 is probably unlikely, but yesterday he looked good under pressure in the limited chance he got, going around rather than through players. Seeing as 12 and 13 interchange so much, and seeing as Daly can actually pass the ball (apparently unlike JJ) it is not totally out of the question.

Seagultaf wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Alex_Germany wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Clifford made a point of making lots of carries. He always made yards. That could be vital in taking the whole duty off Billy.

The impressive thing about Clifford, was that for his try, Scott Williams - a good outside centre - didn't look like catching him.

Williams was the quickest back in the Welsh squad a few seasons back, not sure about these days.

Williams quickest in the Wales squad, you are having a laugh! Maybe quicker than most of the forwards and perhaps Biggar, certainly not known for his pace and bear in mind this was also his second game back from a significant knee injury.

Clifford did look rapid though, even if everyone else had stopped for the knock on!

Basic rugby, play the whistle. ESP when it isn't actually a knockon

A Ford/Daly 10/12 scares the life out of me, it would be carnage!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:A Ford/Daly 10/12 scares the life out of me, it would be carnage!

Absolutely.

Thank god Eddie see the good that Ford does, yes his kicking was poor but he gets us moving and scoring tries, why do so many of you want Farrell at 10?