French Open Day 15: Can Handy Andy Make a Joke out of the Djoker?

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/schedule/

Andy Murray vs Novak Djokovic - both for first French Open win

I think Andy has actually been more up and down with Novak more constant.

11-2 on the scoreboard since set 1....

Has Djokovic changed tactics from the first set or is it just a question of being more aggressive or something?

Murray just not able to hold his serve or having great difficulty holding onto his serve.

Twice to the net on a service return and didn't even have to play a volley. Maybe something he did because it was 1-5 40-0 but might be worth another try for Novak on the evidence of that.

Nore Staat wrote:Has Djokovic changed tactics from the first set or is it just a question of being more aggressive or something?

No I'd say it is more to do with the fact Murray slipped into a baseline-mode trying to trade shots with Novak and that plays into Novak's hands and it doesn't help when your first serve stats plummet. Of course that is not denigrating Novak at all - he was in a hole but got the match played on his terms and not looked back.

Assuming that Novak closes out the 3rd, then Andy needs to remind himself at the changeover that:
a. he will almost certainly never get a better shot to win RG
b. Novak has significant RG demons lurking in his closet and there's every chance he could tighten up if pushed all the way

If, however, Novak can maintain this level and carefree approach, there's probably not much that Andy can do.

I think Andy has to take it a set at a time, if that, maybe a game at a time. forget the mountain to climb.

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Assuming that Novak closes out the 3rd, then Andy needs to remind himself at the changeover that:
a. he will almost certainly never get a better shot to win RG
b. Novak has significant RG demons lurking in his closet and there's every chance he could tighten up if pushed all the way

If, however, Novak can maintain this level and carefree approach, there's probably not much that Andy can do.

It is simple what Murray has to do - serve better and re-employ his first set and Rome tactics - variety of shots with high bouncing balls and low slices played at Novak. That is the key.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:Has Djokovic changed tactics from the first set or is it just a question of being more aggressive or something?

No I'd say it is more to do with the fact Murray slipped into a baseline-mode trying to trade shots with Novak and that plays into Novak's hands and it doesn't help when your first serve stats plummet. Of course that is not denigrating Novak at all - he was in a hole but got the match played on his terms and not looked back.

Yep. Murray took a backward step, both literally and tactically. He put pressure on Novak in the first set, with either variety or aggression... Now he's just hoping he misses.

So frustrating when you see what he can do on the front foot.

My gratz to Novak, im sure he'll close it out extremely easily. As he does every time they play
Theres only so many times you can watch the exact same thing happen again and again before you cant see it anymore.

Andy, attack!!! You aren't going to win by trading!!

That's ludicrously good from Novak.

It's been a great run in this tournament and naturally an overall success but the way Murray has folded and fallen away here (seemingly mentally) is very disappointing

But it isnt. Its been this way for 5 years. Either Novak gets very seriously tired or hurt or its 3-4 sets with only 1 being competitive.

Just the way it is really...

If Novak can run away with it that'll ease the nerves for sure, serving for match say 5-2 up and 2 sets to 1 got to be easier than doing it 6-5 and 2 sets all.

Well it isn't rocket science what has happened for me. First serve drops and variety goes from Andy's game and he reverts to baseline slogfests and invariably he will lose. For me it needs someone to sit down with Andy post-match and tell him what works and what doesn't against Novak. Evidently, the final in Rome and the first set here is the blueprint he should go with not these toe-to-toe baseline rallies.

Re Rod Laver, the stat just flashed up that Djokovic and Laver both have 11 slams. Novak on course to overtake him today just before getting the trophy presented. Rather a meaningless stat though, when you consider Laver played amateur, pro, and open era. If the open era had come earlier he would probably have had at lot more slams than Novak.

no need for nerves here. This will be 6-0

temporary21 wrote:But it isnt. Its been this way for 5 years. Either Novak gets very seriously tired or hurt or its 3-4 sets with only 1 being competitive.

Just the way it is really...

It is how the matches tended to play out but at least in Rome and the first set here I saw Andy come up with tactics that were highly effective V Novak. That must be something for the future - if he remembers how well it served him.

First serve really could do with occasionally going in...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:Has Djokovic changed tactics from the first set or is it just a question of being more aggressive or something?

No I'd say it is more to do with the fact Murray slipped into a baseline-mode trying to trade shots with Novak and that plays into Novak's hands and it doesn't help when your first serve stats plummet. Of course that is not denigrating Novak at all - he was in a hole but got the match played on his terms and not looked back.

Are you suggesting that Murray changed tactics after winning the first set. So Murray was doing something different to what he is now doing (from second set onwards)?

Much better racquet head acceleration on that point.

C'mon Andy. At least he's not giving up

Henman Bill wrote:I think Andy has to take it a set at a time, if that, maybe a game at a time. forget the mountain to climb.

Isn't it recommended to take it one point at a time?

Good hold.

Nore Staat wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:Has Djokovic changed tactics from the first set or is it just a question of being more aggressive or something?

No I'd say it is more to do with the fact Murray slipped into a baseline-mode trying to trade shots with Novak and that plays into Novak's hands and it doesn't help when your first serve stats plummet. Of course that is not denigrating Novak at all - he was in a hole but got the match played on his terms and not looked back.

Are you suggesting that Murray changed tactics after winning the first set.  So Murray was doing something different to what he is now doing (from second set onwards)?

Yes his first serve stats plummetted and he began trading in baseline rallies and dispensed with the variety for some reason - that is how I saw it.

Well done Andy. Stays within touching distance.

I personally think Murray did seem to lose a fair bit of velocity in Set 2/3 and seemed more content to rally as opposed to dictate. The commentators pointed out that switch from taking forehands after the 1st serve too which suggests he became a bit lazy with his footwork as well as a change in returning tact from Novak...

But credit to Djokovic - he maintained focus even when he wasn't firing in the first set. Since then he's been methodically working Murray all around the court. It's actually been a pretty masterful performance.

You can only pull that off 1 in ten times. Its essentially saying the right tactic is to play perfectly.
Rogers variety cant beat him even at Wimbledon, hence i dont see that working for more than a set either

Murray just cant beat him anymore. No shame but its very evident he hasnt the belief or the legs

Novak deservedly attains the Djokovic slam, which the right ending to this tourny, the man has made 4 of the last 5 finals... i just really hope these two dont meet anymore. Hopes can only be dased so much. So much so that my interest is sadly wavering

Ho hum...

Last year in the semi-final Murray won the next two sets after losing the first two sets.

First set - aggression mixed with short and deep slices, really solid serving and huge intensity.

Since first set - 2 yards further behind baseline, hitting with 75% power largely in central areas. First serve way lower. Not unleashing on hardly any returns.

First set, played to win. Sets 2,3 and 4 played not to lose.

Murray first serve in
Set 1 19 out of 31
Set 2 9 out of 19
Set 3 13 out of 24
Set 4 so far 6 out of 15

he may a few more in set 1, but not a hugely obviously trend here.

I think the crowd support has turned to Murray more as it looked like he is going to lose, or at least fairly neutral.

No matter how good Djokovic is playing surely losing the second and third sets 6-1 6-2 is not good enough for someone ranked no 2?  

One surely should expect better in him in holding his own service - to at least take sets to tie-breakers.  Technique under pressure is surely not good enough - rather than explanations to do with tactics or fitness or even mental issues??? I don't mind the double faults from Andy - in that he is going for his second serves - but maybe his technique is just not good enough under this type of pressure.

Perhaps a bit premature, but congrats to Djokovic supporters for Career slam of their favorite and other slam records, too.

laverfan wrote:Perhaps a bit premature, but congrats to Djokovic supporters for Career slam of their favorite and other slam records, too.

I'll echo that. Nobody can deny that he doesn't serve the career slam so well played to him.

Danny_1982 wrote:First set - aggression mixed with short and deep slices, really solid serving and huge intensity.

Since first set - 2 yards further behind baseline, hitting with 75% power largely in central areas. First serve way lower. Not unleashing on hardly any returns.

First set, played to win. Sets 2,3 and 4 played not to lose.

Okay. This tallies with C-Craig.

There's still life. Really hoping that, at the very least, Novak has to serve it out without a double break cushion.

ITV talking about the same thing we are, the change in approach from Murray since the first set. Courier talking about the incredible stat of Murray hitting the forehand with 7kph less velocity since the relationship with Lendl ended.

Successive miserable return games from Andy.

It's premature...
Still, Murray has won one point against Novak's serve so far on this set.
On his own serve, every game is close.

His serving has been dire after the first set. He can't hit the flat serves down the middle at all, so Novak can just sit on the wide serves each side.

Nothing to be done.
Bear in mind this isnt all Andy... apart from when hes been overworked, Novak has pummeled the nuts off of Federer and Nadal and everyone else in this way

Shame we're heading for an anti-climatic finish. Totally deserved career slam by Novak, so congrats to him. Just wish Andy could have made more of a match of it, but easy to underestimate quite how hard it is to execute a winning game plan against the Serb. I don't think it's anything like as simple as some make out.

Comedy that the Andy of set 1 has briefly returned at 2-5.

Hello! A hold here would make things very interesting.

Hmm Murray breaks, I guess the match couldn't end without a mini-choke at the end... I fully expect this to be over in the next two games though!

With that, Its time i went to cricket for a little while

Murray - one final effort - perhaps recognising that Djokovic will tighten up a little. Djokovic probably has a better chance of winning by breaking Murray here?