Leicester Tigers 2016/17 thread.

[Welly]

First topic message reminder :

2016/17:
Director of Rugby: Richard Cockerill
Head Coach: Aaron Mauger
Assistant Backs Coach: Geordan Murphy
Assistant Forward Coach: Richard Blaze
Defence and Scrum Half Coach: Scott Hansen
Head of Rugby Operations: Ged Glynn
Team manager: Matt Cornwall

2016/17 Senior Squad: (Confirmed So Far) (Blue = EQP)
Hookers: Bateman, McGuigan, Thacker, Youngs
Props: Ayerza, Balmain, Brugnara Cilliers, Cole, Genge, Mulipola, Rizzo
Locks: Barrow, Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Slater
Back Row: Croft, Fonua, Hamilton McCaffrey, O'Connor, Williams
Scrum Half: Harrison, Kitto, Youngs
Fly Half: Burns, Williams
Centre: Catchpole, Roberts, Smith, Toomua, Tuilagi
Back 3: Betham, Brady, Pieterson, Tait, Thompstone, Veainu
Squad number: 37, EQP: 24, Academy products: 8

Transfers
IN: (7)
McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons), Cilliers (Montpelier), Genge (Bristol), Hamilton (Agen), Toomua (ACT Brumbies). JP Pieterson (Sharks), Brady (Sale)

OUT: (12)
Ghiraldini (Toulouse), Pasquali (Treviso), De Chaves (London Irish), Crane (Bristol), Pearce (Sale), Bell (London Irish), Baikeinuku (retirement), De Villiers (Retirement), Benjamin (retirement), Morris (N/A), Camacho (N/A), Goneva (Newcastle Falcons)

Not Sure: (No official confirmation of leaving or Staying) 3
Aguero, Sio Loamanu,

Rumours:
Harry Wells (Bedford) Lock/6

2016/17 Development Squad: (15)
Bryant, Evans, Hills, Lewis, Mahoney, Maksymiw, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Owen, Simmons, Thacker, Tuilagi, White, Worth, Yawayawa

Transfer
IN: (7)
Lewis, Mahoney, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Simmons, White, Yawayawa

OUT: 11
Odogwu (sale), Beckett (Glous), Povoas (Coventry), Tresidder (Rotherham Titans), Douglas, Farnworth, Galletly, Hogan, Murrin, Nairn, Priestley-Nangle.


Academy
Academy Head Coach/forwards Coach: Brett Deacon
Academy Backs Coach: Anthony Allen

[Welly]

Think I saw a pic of Catchpole on Twitter at the fire fighter team building thing, with his leg in a brace and crutches.

So that explains that.

[formerly known as Sam]

Hope he recovers quickly, he doesn't seem to have much look woth injuries. 

I see Fearns has signed for Glaws officially now. Anyone heard any more options? After seeing Hurrell and Woodward combine for Bristol at the weekend I'm hoping they've got relegation release options and we're ready to get them on board.

[king_carlos]

Fair Welly. I heard he was going to be fit. A shame for the lad after how much rugby he's missed in the last season. Hopefully he can force his way back in again once fit. A young guy who hasn't looked out of place when he's got his opportunities.

Back row selection for Quins will be interesting. Evans and Hamilton both played well over the last fortnight, Crofty returned promisingly plus the usual Fitz, BOC and Locky are all available as far as we know.

1.Ayerza 2.Youngs 3.Bateman 4.Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Hamilton 7.Evans 8.BOC

16.Thacker 17.Genge 18.Cilliers 19.Fitzgerald 20.Locky

I hope the pack shapes up something like that. I want to see Evans and BOC in the same line-up, think they'll work well together.

[formerly known as Sam]

I like that pack Carlos. Not a fan of Bateman really but we don't have a whole lot of choice currently. A back line as per last weekend to go with that pack. Unless Smith is fit then I'd have him in the squad somewhere.

It's a shame we've not seen more of Fred Tuilagi. We need a big ball carrier at 8 and he's exactly that. I would have liked to see him get more game time.

[Welly]

Fred looked too unfit for AWC rugby let alone AP rugby.

Needs another season of conditioning really certainly has the Henry's number 8 frame though.

Prob spend the rest of this season in the A league and Coventry.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think that the exposure to AWC will be the shock that forces him into the gym and to eat right. He's got the build and the explosive ability. I'm glad to hear he's on loan at Coventry.

[Welly]

Sounds like Catchpole has done his PCL.

[king_carlos]

Ouch, hopefully he comes back from it. Major ligament damage in the knee can be an absolute killer to a players pace.

Merc reporting that Manu should be back for Saints at home, i.e. early December. Whether that will come to be a reality is of course anyone's guess with Cockers!

Cockers also stating that Matt Smith will be out for 4 more weeks with an ankle injury. A real shame for him to be struggling for fitness after his form last season.

Hopefully Jack Roberts can keep taking his chances. I'd guess that will give a chance for Bryant or Worth to stay on the bench for Quins as well with Manu, Toomua, Smith and Catchpole all injured plus JPP and TV away on int duty.

[formerly known as Sam]

Manu's back!

icester Tigers (v Bristol Rugby, away, Friday 7.45pm)
15 George Worth
14 Adam Thompstone
13 Peter Betham
12 Owen Williams
11 Tom Brady
10 Freddie Burns
9 Sam Harrison
1 Ellis Genge
2 Tom Youngs (c)
3 Greg Bateman
4 Ed Slater
5 Graham Kitchener
6 Mike Fitzgerald
7 Will Evans
8 Luke Hamilton

Replacements
16 Harry Thacker
17 Riccardo Brugnara
18 Pat Cilliers
19 Harry Wells
20 Lachlan McCaffrey
21 Jono Kitto
22 Manu Tuilagi
23 Jack Roberts

[king_carlos]

A shame for Taity to have broken a jaw just as he was getting back to form. It's a great opportunity for Worth though, he'll now have 2 winter months during which he will offer the tactical alternative to TV at the back.

With Marcos out for a couple with a calf strain it was nice timing to see Logo play a full 80 minutes for Samoa last weekend.

Really nice to see Harry Wells get named in a AP match day squad. I was really impressed by him in the AWC, thought his game has really come on. First prem chance for Brugnara since being dropped down to the development squad as well.

[formerly known as Sam]

It's just good to see us using the development players rather than crow barring senior players into unfamiliar positions. We've fallen behind in the development of our home produced players and they are integral to teams wanting to compete at the highest level on multiple fronts.

Investing time in Worth, Evans and Wells now should hopefully yield benefits later. Particularly if they fill out the squad meaning we don't have to waste cap on journeymen squad filler and can concentrate on game changers.

Feel sorry for Roberts that he still can't get a start.

[Welly]

How have we fallen behind in developing home grown players?

We are prob on bar.

Only Sarries in the top 6/7 are really ahead of us in that department over the last 3 or so season.

[king_carlos]

Forwards - OTY, Thacker, Cole, Slater, Wells, Croft, Evans

Backs - YBY, Harrison, Bryant, Smith, Manu, Catchpole

Those are our 'home grown' players currently in the senior squad. When you consider the quality of several internationals in there along with 3 club stalwarts who epitomise what many fans want Tigers to be I think the situation isn't what many make it out to be.

The frustrations come from losing the likes of Ford, Twelvetrees, Lewington and now Odogwu in recent years.

Ford and Twelvetrees were due to us having better options at the time, amongst other things.

Odogwu wasn't applying himself as wanted in training. This could be argued as poor man management but from what little I'd heard it sounded like the lad just wanted a change.

Lewington IMO was the big man sausage up with a then past his best Scotty Hamilton being picked ahead of the young lad when he deserved a shot. It's especially a shame now with how far he's come on.

The Lewington situation is what makes many fans tetchy on the subject of young guys getting game time.

My main bug bear I've voiced here several times is that young guys rarely get integrated into strong Tigers sides when things are going well. More often they are thrown into weaker match day squads during injury/availability crisis. This is currently looking better this season though with more rotation, Roberts getting a few opportunities, Worth and Wells this week, Bryant last week...

Overall I think Cockers has done a good job and I really like the staff developing around him with Mauger, Geordie and Blaze in the first team, then AA and Brett Deacon with the youngsters.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think we missed out on several promising young backs because of O'Connor. Ford, Twelvetrees, Lewington and Steele are all players we didn't give enough game time to or offer more prominent places in the squad early enough. Twelvetrees and Ford were as you said Welly only really used when we had injuries.

I agree that things are looking a lot better in terms of player development with the new regime and rotation. We used to be very good at developing a core of local talent that wasn't always the best (except sometimes it was) but was good and provided a committed squad. Sarries took our old format and ran with it, they can nearly field an entire 15 that has come through their system. Added in some quality from outside and they are dominating, under O'Connor we signed too much and because of the cost of that we were limited to average signings.

I'm a huge fan of drip feeding in young players into decent squads to get them game time. This squad for tonight is exactly what we should be fielding in my opinion.

[LondonTiger]

Sarries took our old format and ran with it, they can nearly field an entire 15 that has come through their system.

Brugnara, OTY, Cole, Slater, Wells, Croft, Evans, FreddieJr, Lenny, Harrison, Catchpole, Bryant, Manu, Smith, Worth.

While not hideously strong, would keep us in the premiership. Brugnara a weak link (wonder how much time he will get tonight?) and Freddie Jr not ready for AP action yet.

Sarries:

????, George, ?????, Kruis, Itoje, Wray, Fraser, ??????, Spencer, Farrell, Earle, Tompkins, ????, ????, Goode

Some real quality there, and most still pretty young. Where they are really strong is how they fill those question marks - Mako, Billy, Bosch/Barritt/Taylor, Maitland/Wyles etc.

[formerly known as Sam]

If we're claiming Slater they can claim Mako and Taylor. Gallagher on the other wing and Conlon on the backrow  (he started at Exeter and moved at 19/20).

If you take away the players we've exposed to first team rugby in 2016 then we lose nearly half the side. The new regime is doing the job I wanted the old regime to do. Definitely a move in the right direction. If we can sort the defence (which is starting to look better) then I'd start to be a quite happy with our situation.

[Welly]

I don't know.

Slater wasn't at any other AP club
Mako was in Bristols academy and Conlon was at Exters academy.

Although I wouldn't count Slater TBH.

[formerly known as Sam]

Slater was playing semi pro in Australia and the joined Nottingham after we recommended him to them. We had an injury crisis signed him on loan and then permanently. Just helps that he was born in Leicester to a family who supported Tigers (though he wasn't brought up in Leicester, I think that's right).

Anyway semantics. The use of the development squad is a welcome change and we're hoping they go well tonight. If we can tap up Hurrell and Woodward for next season whilst we're down there, even better.

[formerly known as Sam]

A win away from home and Saints lose at the Gardens. Lovely start to the weekend.

[Welly]

yeh wasn't a great performance at all but 4 points from home against an improving Bristol is alright IMO.

[formerly known as Sam]

I've not seen the game. Just the Twitter updates. How was the defence and Manu?

[Welly]

defence was good.

Manu a few runs and a good rip but not much else.

[formerly known as Sam]

Given his injury history that's fine. It's going to take until the new year before he's fully match fit so I'm just happy he's managed something positive.

Grinding out a win and showing an improved defence is what we need at this time of year. Added bonus that we got some experience for younger players. Apparently Worth was a stand out.

[LondonTiger]

I lost count just how many times we managed to lose the ball inside the Brizzle 22.

[king_carlos]

Veainu picked up a head injury against the States which according to the Merc means he'll be out for a while.

"The advice is that Telusa will have a period of stand down until the symptoms have gone," said Tigers director of rugby Richard Cockerill.

Means that Worth will continue at full back for the Saints game. Not great timing with the Munster double header coming up as well. Although it's a great chance for Worth.

Other than that Crofty is expected to return. Manu felt no adverse symptoms from his return. Mike Fitzgerald has recovered from his leg injury against Bristol. Logo and JPP will be available having returned from Int duty.

[formerly known as Sam]

Worth has been playing well. It'll do him good to out a run of games together. Hopefully TV comes back after a couple of weeks and then the two of them can rotate.

Good news to have Mulipola and JPP back, adds some muscle to the side and Croft will be a handy option given Saints strong set piece game.

[Welly]

If Tigers are looking for a 10 would rather we went after Shillcock than Ford will be cheaper too although Hardwick is also coming up through academy, esp with Owen looking very good at 12 would be tempted to look at moving him there full time, prob increase his Wales chances aswell what with Davies, Patchell, Bigger @ 10.

Really hope we don't go for Ford mainly due to cost.

[king_carlos]

I don't know if it's been posted here but there's a rumour floating around the Offy that Bath were offered Burns as part of a swap for Ford without Freddie being informed it was happening.

No way to know if it's hot air but if it isn't then it's poor form from the club given how good Freddie has been for us.

I'd happily have Ford back because I think he runs a backline excellently. The small touches in his game like the slight delay on passes are fantastic.

I wouldn't want him if it meant losing Freddie though. Burns is such an asset to the club - how good he already is, how much he's still improving, his better goal kicking, being available all season and costing much less than Ford - not a player that the club should risk losing.

[formerly known as Sam]

If Freddie plays like he did yesterday for the rest of the season I don't think we can afford to lose him. He was everything we wanted him to be. Ford is a better playmaker and tactician but not by mig when Freddie plays like he did yesterday. What Burns does have over Ford is his kicking for goal, that is a severe weakness in the otherwise excellent Ford. 

I don't believe the stories behind Ford's wage demands. He's likely to play in the majority of England games (5 6N, 4 AI and 3 ST) all at £22k a time, plus endorsements. He doesn't need the reported 600k a year and outside of the desperate he isn't likely to get that as he can't be the marquee signing. I think he's more likely to accept a hefty but not huge salary and get behind a strong pack that will help him keep his England place which is worth a lot financially. 

With Burns and Williams we are fairly well stocked at 10 for next season. They are both under contract and with Owen happy to extend with the optional extra year in his contract we can assume he's happy too. Hardwick and Bryant are kicking about in the development squad and Nottingham deployed Worth at 10 when he was on loan there. I'd say there are other priorities before signing a 10 only Ford who is an outstanding playmaker would make us change our priorities.

[king_carlos]

Looking onto the Munster double header. Would others agree that this coming weekend could be a season defining fixture?

Lose away at Munster then our only away game left is Racing. Given that in order to make the QFs you pretty much need to win your three home games and nick one away, I'd argue that lose at Thomond Park this Saturday and our hopes of progressing are gone. Win and BPs will then start to be vital for getting enough points to secure progression.

If OTY is fit to come back then I'd expect something like.

1.Genge 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Slater 5.Kitch 6.Fitz 7.BOC 8.Lachie
9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.JPP 12.Williams 13.Betham 14.Thompstone 15.Worth

16.Thacker 17.Mulipola 18.Bateman 19.Hamilton 20.Evans 21.Harrison 22.Tuilagi 23.Brady/Roberts

Hamilton may well keep the 8 jersey after a series of strong performances though. I hope that Manu is kept on the bench for another week with an eye on starting the return fixture at home.

That's also presuming that Freddie was just cramp when he went off as well. He didn't look in too much trouble when he was stretching off on the pitch but he was heavily iced once on the bench.

[formerly known as Sam]

Burns confirmed in his post match interview it was just cramp.

I think that side is what Cockers will go with. He might be tempted to put some extra muscle into the pack though I'm not sure that'll necessarily help us, might be playing into Munster hands.

[LondonTiger]

Dan Cole ruled out of the trip to Thomond Park due to the stitches he needed for a cut on the thigh received against Australia. Did not notice that I must say.

[formerly known as Sam]

Dan Cole ruled out of the trip to Thomond Park due to the stitches he needed for a cut on the thigh received against Australia. Did not notice that I must say.

He did come off fairly early against Australia. Didn't notice any bleeding though Cole is as tough as old boots so he's unlikely to make a fuss. He's a big loss heading into a bear pit like Thomond Park.

Cilliers is still not really pulling up trees which is a concern.

Any news on Tom Youngs?

[LondonTiger]

Leicester Tigers (v Munster Rugby, away, Saturday 3.15pm)
15 George Worth
14 Adam Thompstone
13 Manu Tuilagi
12 Owen Williams
11 Peter Betham
10 Freddie Burns
9 Ben Youngs
1 Logovi'i Mulipola
2 Tom Youngs (c)
3 Greg Bateman
4 Ed Slater
5 Graham Kitchener
6 Mike Fitzgerald
7 Brendon O'Connor
8 Lachlan McCaffrey

Replacements
16 George McGuigan
17 Ellis Genge
18 Pat Cilliers
19 Luke Hamilton
20 Will Evans
21 Sam Harrison
22 Jack Roberts
23 Tom Brady

[BamBam]

One name stands out .. big one to come back in for!

[king_carlos]

No Ayerza, Cole or Mike Williams from the pack. No JPP in the backs.

Toomua as well of course but that's an absence the squad will need to deal with for the rest of the season.

It's a lot of quality missing for a huge game.

[formerly known as Sam]

No Thacker? He was incredible in the loose against Saints and our scrum was good. Lineout mostly good other than two wonky efforts. I guess we're going big up front for this one.

[LondonTiger]

Munster XV:

Simon Zebo; Darren Sweetnam, Jaco Taute, Rory Scannell, Keith Earls; Tyler Bleyendaal, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, John Ryan; Donnacha Ryan, Billy Holland; Peter O'Mahony - capt., Tommy O'Donnell, CJ Stander.

Replacements:
Rhys Marshall, Thomas Du Toit, Stephen Archer, Jean Kleyn, Jack O'Donoghue, Duncan Williams, Ian Keatley, Andrew Conway

[king_carlos]

I'd completely forgotten that Francis Saili is out until the New Year. Evens the odds with Toomua out as well.

Zebo vs Worth will be a huge challenge for the young lad. Zebo has been excellent this season.

Stopping that Munster back row, or more likely trying to deny them a platform to play from, will be key for Tigers.

Genge on the bench is an interesting tactical move. His entry should be a key moment for Tigers. I just hope it isn't a case of our forwards lacking aggression and intensity until Genge comes on to put a rocket up them. Logo has been steadily getting back to his pre injury best this season. Given that strength at LH we really need the two of them to get the better of John Ryan at scrum time and around the park.

[Guest]

I'd have liked to have seen Genge start and Logo come off the bench. I always feel like Logo struggles to have as much of an impact on the game when he starts whereas Genge seems to carry just as hard/often regardless of whether it's the first 60 or final 20.

Unfortunately Munster will no doubt be a completely different beast this time so a repeat of last season's win is unlikely. Whilst a LBP would be a pretty good return for Leicester I think a loss should see the management give up on Europe and concentrate on the AP.

[formerly known as Sam]

I wouldn't like to see them give up top early. We should be looking to win our home games in this competition. Welford Road needs to be regarded as a hard place to go needing a result and the reputation of that has been hurt a little recently. Another season of straight wins at home will keep up the aura it holds (Ulster fans aside).

It seems the coaches are keen to rest Genge, maybe he's a little fatigued after playing so much early doors. A little rotation isn't a bad thing for him.

Agree completely on the comments around the Munster backrow. They are very good and we can't let them get the upper hand otherwise we'll have not decent ball and be on the back foot. Can't kick aimlessly to that back three either, they'll make us regret it.

[Guest]

I've changed my mind, only a massive win next week is acceptable after that. An incredibly embarrassing result during a period of 3-4 years that hasn't exactly lacked embarrassing results.

The problem is that losses far to frequently become utter Frak annihilations. There's a soft-core to the team and I don't like it.

I look at other backrows and then wonder how the Frak Fitzgerald, McCaffrey and O'Connor are gonna even gain parity, let alone dominate.

[Geordie]

Big defeat there. Pretty much full strength.

Surely it's time for Cockerill to go....

[formerly known as Sam]

Big defeat there. Pretty much full strength.

Surely it's time for Cockerill to go....

He's got a year left on his contract at the end of this season. He could well be on his way and with the rumours I've heard there will be changes to the coaching staff.

Go to agree with Fuzzy. Our experienced signings in the backrow aren't up to the mark. I was hoping BOC would come good and I know Welly is in favour of looking elsewhere for our openside options and I've got to agree. Playing three second rows doesn't help matters either. Generally up front we're far to nice.

[doctor_grey]

Before you wish Cockers out the door, be careful what you wish for. Who is available? And is this a talent thing or a coaching thing? And, if talent, who you think could bring in better talent?

I know a team just a wee bit south who need a coach who knows how to put a foot up somewhere.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think Cockers will be moved upstairs. He won't be shoved out the door. We have several coaches in assistant capacities that could step up. Our defence has actually looked better since it was reorganised during the LV gamed by Allen, Murphy, Deacon and Blaze.

I don't think we need to sign a bug name coach just the a good coach that understands the club. Certainly some new blood and some nasty needs injecting. Bakkies for defence coach?

[Guest]

Go to agree with Fuzzy. Our experienced signings in the backrow aren't up to the mark. I was hoping BOC would come good and I know Welly is in favour of looking elsewhere for our openside options and I've got to agree. Playing three second rows doesn't help matters either. Generally up front we're far to nice.

I haven't been overly impressed with BOC defensively, but I think he's been a huge improvement over Salvi in attack and general link play. When someone does manage to make a break he's almost always the first in support to keep the move alive. He's been involved in so many of Leicester's best tries during his time here. Similarly I think McCaffrey is a very clever player who has been much better than I hoped he could be.

Throw them both in together, however, and you need a beast at 6 to compensate. Big Mike helps in this regard for sure, but even then it's probably only just about going to get parity against packs like the one faced today. Even with Williams fit I think the way forward is to have Locky, BOC and Evans battling it out for one position. Obviously we won't be able to see this until next season when hopefully a monster 8 can be found, Fearns would've been a great signing.

[Geordie]

What happened to Thacker and Evans the 7?

I agree what's been said before....Tigers are physically soft!  And thats the one label you could never ever label them!

[Welly]

Evans was on the bench.

Thacker not sure. I don't think he is the 7 we need though.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think Thacker could be the 7 we need. He supports and carries well, makes tackles and turns over ball. Problem is Thacker and Evans aren't the most physically dominant players and both are young and still gaining experience. Ideally we'd do what Wasps did last season and bring in an experienced high quality 7 towards the end of their career who can develop these guys and who doesn't mind getting rotated.

GF we are too soft. What is worrying is that we have players who aren't naturally that way but are just toning it down. Tom Youngs at the start of his career was considered a bit too feisty. Currently we're seeing none of that and the rest are following his tone.

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