Leicester Tigers 2016/17 thread.

[Welly]

First topic message reminder :

2016/17:
Director of Rugby: Richard Cockerill
Head Coach: Aaron Mauger
Assistant Backs Coach: Geordan Murphy
Assistant Forward Coach: Richard Blaze
Defence and Scrum Half Coach: Scott Hansen
Head of Rugby Operations: Ged Glynn
Team manager: Matt Cornwall

2016/17 Senior Squad: (Confirmed So Far) (Blue = EQP)
Hookers: Bateman, McGuigan, Thacker, Youngs
Props: Ayerza, Balmain, Brugnara Cilliers, Cole, Genge, Mulipola, Rizzo
Locks: Barrow, Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Slater
Back Row: Croft, Fonua, Hamilton McCaffrey, O'Connor, Williams
Scrum Half: Harrison, Kitto, Youngs
Fly Half: Burns, Williams
Centre: Catchpole, Roberts, Smith, Toomua, Tuilagi
Back 3: Betham, Brady, Pieterson, Tait, Thompstone, Veainu
Squad number: 37, EQP: 24, Academy products: 8

Transfers
IN: (7)
McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons), Cilliers (Montpelier), Genge (Bristol), Hamilton (Agen), Toomua (ACT Brumbies). JP Pieterson (Sharks), Brady (Sale)

OUT: (12)
Ghiraldini (Toulouse), Pasquali (Treviso), De Chaves (London Irish), Crane (Bristol), Pearce (Sale), Bell (London Irish), Baikeinuku (retirement), De Villiers (Retirement), Benjamin (retirement), Morris (N/A), Camacho (N/A), Goneva (Newcastle Falcons)

Not Sure: (No official confirmation of leaving or Staying) 3
Aguero, Sio Loamanu,

Rumours:
Harry Wells (Bedford) Lock/6

2016/17 Development Squad: (15)
Bryant, Evans, Hills, Lewis, Mahoney, Maksymiw, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Owen, Simmons, Thacker, Tuilagi, White, Worth, Yawayawa

Transfer
IN: (7)
Lewis, Mahoney, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Simmons, White, Yawayawa

OUT: 11
Odogwu (sale), Beckett (Glous), Povoas (Coventry), Tresidder (Rotherham Titans), Douglas, Farnworth, Galletly, Hogan, Murrin, Nairn, Priestley-Nangle.


Academy
Academy Head Coach/forwards Coach: Brett Deacon
Academy Backs Coach: Anthony Allen

[SecretFly]

How long has Cockers been with Leicester (as coach)? It seems like forever. Could it simply not be concluded that he, the team and the location have become a stale relationship?

[Exiledinborders]

To be honest I am not sure how much is Cockerill's fault.

Look at that squad. Who would get in the Sarries team? Possibly, Cole and Youngs and neither would be definites. Most of the rest are mid-table quality at best. A Leicester team sheet used to frighten the opposition.

Either Cockerill cannot recruit well or Leicester just do not have the cash. I suspect the latter.

[Artful_Dodger]

I think if he wasn't a Leicester boy with 250 caps for the Tigers they would have gotten rid of him by now.  I think he is competent but not an awful lot more than that.  Its a difficult situation, he has won 2 Premiership titles with them and is an old boy, but I don't think the rugby he has them playing is going to trouble the likes of Saracens or the top French and Irish teams at the moment.  Recruitment has been pretty questionable, with such a need for top class backrows, their big signing was a winger in JP Pieterson.

He doesn't have the personnel to work with but at the same time that the buck stops with him on that front.  If I was a Tigers fan I would want rid.

[SecretFly]

To be honest I am not sure how much is Cockerill's fault.

Look at that squad. Who would get in the Sarries team? Possibly, Cole and Youngs and neither would be definites. Most of the rest are mid-table quality at best. A Leicester team sheet used to frighten the opposition.

Either Cockerill cannot recruit well or Leicester just do not have the cash. I suspect the latter.

Who would get in a Sarrie's team?  Is that really a legitimate question though?  Every League has the side that probably has most apples in terms of quality players - thus why they are the side at the top.  But that doesn't mean all other sides should get handed white flags to wave through what is still a pretty competitive League.
The degree of fault might be debatable but Cockerill can't wash his hands of the responsibility he holds.  

This thing about cash too?  Where is the cash all going?  A hefty AP Broadcasting contract shared around, a big advertising gig, money for competing in Europe, gate receipts?  10 times Title holders? Twice HEC winners?
Where does the money/investment get to?

[king_carlos]

The issue that many overlook is that Tigers are skint compared to the clubs they are trying to compete with.

Bringing a 'top coach' in is usually suggested as a quick fix but requires big money the same as top players these days. The contract that Cotter has from Montpellier is absurd money for a coach.

A reshuffle will likely be what happens. Cockers shifting upstairs as Sam says.

As for playing staff, within reason from money available I'd like to see:

- Use the cap from Crane, Pearce and Fonua (on a lot) leaving to sign an 8

- With O'Conner and Fitzgerald out of contract a decision needs to be made on how the current pack options fit together. I'd happily see both stay but I'd like to see Fitz used on the flank less (keeping our 4 locks and rotating could be key to getting our 'edge' back in the tight). O'Connor I'd prefer to see cover 8 more with Evans getting game time as first choice 7.

- If O'Connor goes then I'd happily see an experienced 7 brought in to mentor and rotate with Evans - Brussow would be a great fit. Croftys cap will likely be free for this too.

- Cap from Rizzo, Brugnara and Balmain leaving should be used to sign a talented young LH. Someone who could rotate with Genge longer term to keep both fresh. Rapava-Ruskin would be fantastic but he has a lot of offers.

- Ideally I'd like to see the cap from Tait leaving and letting Brady go to sign a full back as well. Someone who is solid at the back, can link with his back three well and rotate with Worth to keep the young lad developing. That would give us 4 top wingers in JPP, TV, Betham and Tombstone to rotate too.

[formerly known as Sam]

To be honest I am not sure how much is Cockerill's fault.

Look at that squad. Who would get in the Sarries team? Possibly, Cole and Youngs and neither would be definites. Most of the rest are mid-table quality at best. A Leicester team sheet used to frighten the opposition.

Either Cockerill cannot recruit well or Leicester just do not have the cash. I suspect the latter.

Who would get in a Sarrie's team?  Is that really a legitimate question though?  Every League has the side that probably has most apples in terms of quality players - thus why they are the side at the top.  But that doesn't mean all other sides should get handed white flags to wave through what is still a pretty competitive League.
The degree of fault might be debatable but Cockerill can't wash his hands of the responsibility he holds.  

This thing about cash too?  Where is the cash all going?  A hefty AP Broadcasting contract shared around, a big advertising gig, money for competing in Europe, gate receipts?  10 times Title holders? Twice HEC winners?
Where does the money/investment get to?

Cash has been used to improve the stadium. The club have also purchased new training facilities that are being adapted for use. Have put in a new improved playing surface and were recently shafted by the city council who decided to put up for sale some land they'd been leasing to Tigers for donkeys years, which Tigers had to find money to purchase. 

Personally I'd be looking at heavy backrow reinforcements. Evans and Thacker to seven. BOC back to NZ and probably Fitzgerald to join him (harsh but we have three other good locks plus development options and players to cover). New deal for Crofty as apparently he is on very little. Then two bug horrible units for the backrow, one of the two a specialist 8. Bateman can cover hooker and TH as 3rd and 4th choice as we sign another prop and retain Mulipola.

In the backs offload Tait and maybe Roberts. Sign an experienced fullback to help develop Worth. If Smith is set to retire (I hope not but he seems never to be fit) then we need to sign a hard hitting centre, Thacker Jnr can step up and cover Roberts squad place.

On the coaching side I'm not sure. I guess that Cockers is a but stuck in his ways. We definitely need a good defence coach and a scrum coach wouldn't hurt.

[Welly]

Actually Roberts was a bright spark yesterday IMO and we should try to keep him IMO.

Hopefully the hotel and Multi story car park will bring in a lot of money once built.
New training facilities are a must aswell just need to sort out Oval park situation.

(Also the new pitch has def been worth the money IMO)

[formerly known as Sam]

Roberts is a decent young talent but the coaches don't seem to trust him. If they don't think he's going to force his way in he's just taking game time from someone who could force their way into the first team.

As I understand it Oadby Wyggs would be happy to have Oval Park all to themselves and are just waiting for Tigers to move off the old Stoneygate ground. Having played at both the Stoneygate pitches are a hell of a lot nicer to play on. The all weather (middle pitch) at Oval Park is a pile of crap, I know some people at Oadby Wyggs and they're confident that after Tigers move out they'll get grant money to resurface the middle pitch.

[Big]

Cash has been used to improve the stadium. The club have also purchased new training facilities that are being adapted for use. Have put in a new improved playing surface and were recently shafted by the city council who decided to put up for sale some land they'd been leasing to Tigers for donkeys years, which Tigers had to find money to purchase. 

I definitely get the impression that money has been focused on the stadium and other asset development - long term a sensible move, as I suspect we are all aware that we have benefited in the pro era from having our own good size dedicated rugby ground. But, I just hope there hasn't been too much attention taken away from the rugby - and I'm concerned that it has. It's hard to express and maybe I'm being unfair - but I can't help but feel that we've tried to maintain the level of rugby in the short term rather than the culture that we had which would have had a long term benefit. Too much player turn over, trying to get the best outcome over the course of the next season or so and not enough focus on the 5 to 10 year time frame - which is now biting.

[formerly known as Sam]

Cash has been used to improve the stadium. The club have also purchased new training facilities that are being adapted for use. Have put in a new improved playing surface and were recently shafted by the city council who decided to put up for sale some land they'd been leasing to Tigers for donkeys years, which Tigers had to find money to purchase. 

I definitely get the impression that money has been focused on the stadium and other asset development - long term a sensible move, as I suspect we are all aware that we have benefited in the pro era from having our own good size dedicated rugby ground.  But, I just hope there hasn't been too much attention taken away from the rugby - and I'm concerned that it has.  It's hard to express and maybe I'm being unfair - but I can't help but feel that we've tried to maintain the level of rugby in the short term rather than the culture that we had which would have had a long term benefit.  Too much player turn over, trying to get the best outcome over the course of the next season or so and not enough focus on the 5 to 10 year time frame - which is now biting.

We neglected the academy for too many years. The development platform for various reasons didn't throw up enough quality and those that it did we never utilised to their full extent. O'Connor was a prime problem with that. As such we've spent more money filling out the squad when we could have done it a lot cheaper with academy options. Thankfully we are getting that balance back a bit now.

I don't think the club wanted to be as stretched in terms as asset development as they are now. The former Stoneygate land hit the market at an unexpected time and needed to be purchased before it had laid barren for enough time for it to be accessible to developers. I don't think Tigers were prepared for the council to try and sell the Granby Halls site from under them either.

[Big]

We neglected the academy for too many years. The development platform for various reasons didn't throw up enough quality and those that it did we never utilised to their full extent. O'Connor was a prime problem with that. As such we've spent more money filling out the squad when we could have done it a lot cheaper with academy options. Thankfully we are getting that balance back a bit now.

I don't think the club wanted to be as stretched in terms as asset development as they are now. The former Stoneygate land hit the market at an unexpected time and needed to be purchased before it had laid barren for enough time for it to be accessible to developers. I don't think Tigers were prepared for the council to try and sell the Granby Halls site from under them either.

I'm sure you know better than me what's going on at academy level - and that sounds consistent with what I'm seeing. But from where I'm sat we had quite a few players coming through until about 5 years ago. After the likes of Cole, Youngsx2, I'm struggling to see really top notch players that have come through. It's one thing getting in a few signings in to plug gaps, but realistically we are better if the core of the team have come through the system - partly because of culture, partly because I'd imagine it's cheaper to bring players through than tempt them across, and partly because it's good to have players who are supporters as well - who'd rather play here than anywhere else because it's their team.

[formerly known as Sam]

Exactly Big. We've hamstrung ourselves with not investing in the young talent. Charlie Clare is at Saints, Steele and Lewington at LI, Twelvetrees at Glaws, Ford at Bath and Walker at Quins. They could have helped fill our squad nicely. Hopefully we'll make up for lost time now and bring through quite a few now meaning we can invest well in the likes of, Strauss and Hardie who are out of contract at the end of the season (two of the three please).

[king_carlos]

Munster (H), Exeter (A), Saracens (H), Wasps (A), Racing (A) and Glasgow (H)

With the immediate future more in mind, the club has a hell of a run of fixtures for the next 6 weeks. Those 6 fixtures are then followed by AWC games against Saints at Welford Road and Sarries (A) in the first two weeks of 6 Nations action. Less pressured games but tough ones as far as AWC goes.

Qualifying for the ERCC QFs is near enough out the question but finishing the 3 group games strongly is vital for the players. There are plenty of excellent players in the squad but they aren't playing like it at the moment. Winning the 2 remaining games leaves us on 12 points.

It would be a very timely week for JPP, Marcos and Mike Williams to return. No news on Marcos but 3 weeks may have been long enough to recover from a calf strain. It would be on the early side for Williams return, although he was expected to be out for 8-12 weeks 2 months ago.

No news on Freddie or Fitz after their HIAs yet.

[formerly known as Sam]

Marcos, Coley, Big Mike Williams and Freddie all out. Personally I hope to see;

Genge, Youngs, Mulipola
Slater, Kitchener 
McCaffery, Hamilton, Evans
Youngs, Williams 
Smith, Manu
JPP, Worth, Thompstone 

Bench; Thacker, Bateman, Cilliers, Fitzgerald/Wells, O'Connor, Harrison, ? , Betham/Roberts.

If Smith is still injured then bring Betham into the midfield. Ideally we'd use Smith and Hamilton to up the tackle count in defence and let Evans be a thorn in the side at the breakdown. O'Connor can come on and play his link game if it opens up. Who do we have cover 10? One of the scrummies, Worth or bring Bryant on to the bench?

[king_carlos]

I'd start Roberts with Manu in the centre, Sam. I think he's earnt the chance for a start against top opposition at home.

Bryant would be my call to cover 10 but Harrison has played there in recent times.

Ideally I'd want Thacker and O'Connor to start on the bench then both come on in the back row with O'Connor at 8 and Thacker at 7. In order to do that Harry would need to be covering hooker too and OTY last the duration though.

[Welly]

JPP and Smith also confirmed as out

[king_carlos]

Betham on the wing then.

By last man standing Bryant and Brady on the bench. Unless Harrison and Kitto are on the bench with Harrison covering 10. Or load the bench with 6 forwards, with lots of injuries there as well I can't see that happening though.

[formerly known as Sam]

Carlos, I like Roberts but we need some steel in defence and if fit Smith would have offered that and then some in the midfield. 

I'm not opposed to having six forwards on the bench. Particularly if players like Croft would otherwise be omitted. Having him available would be useful if the lineout is under pressure again and he'd get round the pitch more readily than Fitzgerald.

[LondonTiger]

Nice to see Mike Williams back in the squad. I wonder if we have gone for 6/2 bench split because we want to beef up that area, or because Kitto and White are the only remaining fit backs in the euro squad?

I struggle to see our team, even with the WR factor, getting anything from the game.

Leicester Tigers (v Munster Rugby, Welford Road, Saturday 3.15pm)
15 George Worth
14 Peter Betham
13 Jack Roberts
12 Manu Tuilagi
11 Adam Thompstone
10 Owen Williams
9 Ben Youngs
1 Ellis Genge
2 Tom Youngs (c)
3 Pat Cilliers
4 Ed Slater
5 Graham Kitchener
6 Luke Hamilton
7 Brendon O'Connor
8 Lachlan McCaffrey

Replacements
16 Harry Thacker
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Greg Bateman
19 Mike Fitzgerald
20 Mike Williams
21 Will Evans
22 Sam Harrison
23 Tom Brady

Munster Rugby: 15 Simon Zebo, 14 Darren Sweetnam, 13 Jaco Taute, 12 Rory Scannell, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Tyler Bleyendaal, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Dave Kilcoyne, 2 Niall Scannell, 3 John Ryan, 4 Donnacha Ryan, 5 Billy Holland, 6 Peter O'Mahony (c), 7 Tommy O'Donnell, 8 CJ Stander.
Replacements: 16 Rhys Marshall, 17 James Cronin, 18 Stephen Archer, 19 Jean Kleyn, 20 Jack O'Donoghue, 21 Duncan Williams, 22 Ian Keatley, 23 Andrew Conway

[formerly known as Sam]

I'm guessing we've gone for a 6/2 bench because we have no fit backs. Might help up front after he took a pasting there last week.

Glad to see we've got three backrowers as opposed to three locks this week.

[eirebilly]

I cant imagine that Leicester will be beaten as they were last week. I still hope for a Munster win but I feel they will have to be very strong in defence for the first 15mins as the Tigers will throw all at them.

Hope to see Munster win by 4

[formerly known as Sam]

I cant imagine that Leicester will be beaten as they were last week. I still hope for a Munster win but I feel they will have to be very strong in defence for the first 15mins as the Tigers will throw all at them.

Hope to see Munster win by 4

Smaller pitch at Welford Road so I'm looking forward to seeing what Munster do with their kicking game. They're going to have to be pin point to keep it in field and out of the 22 so their players can compete. Last weekend they took easy territory by dominating in the air,  GAA skills from school very much to the fore.

Lot of pressure on Tigers. The fans won't react well to losing last weekend and then losing at home. Wins at WR are generally expected. If they lose then Cockers goes and some of the players might be concerned about their futures at the club if he goes.

[eirebilly]

Gutted, in a rush to leave Holland yesterday to get home for Christmas, I forgot my android box

I now cannot use all of my regular streams as SKY seems to have blocked everything, I will miss the game

[eirebilly]

I cant imagine that Leicester will be beaten as they were last week. I still hope for a Munster win but I feel they will have to be very strong in defence for the first 15mins as the Tigers will throw all at them.

Hope to see Munster win by 4

Smaller pitch at Welford Road so I'm looking forward to seeing what Munster do with their kicking game. They're going to have to be pin point to keep it in field and out of the 22 so their players can compete. Last weekend they took easy territory by dominating in the air,  GAA skills from school very much to the fore.

Lot of pressure on Tigers. The fans won't react well to losing last weekend and then losing at home. Wins at WR are generally expected. If they lose then Cockers goes and some of the players might be concerned about their futures at the club if he goes.

That's an excellent point Sam. Connor is somewhat wayward with his box kicking which could play into Leicester's hands. I still feel that Munster are much stronger on the counter attack. Could be a high scoring but close match.

[formerly known as Sam]

Gutted, in a rush to leave Holland yesterday to get home for Christmas, I forgot my android box

I now cannot use all of my regular streams as SKY seems to have blocked everything, I will miss the game

It's in BT and not Sky if that makes it any easier.

[formerly known as Sam]

Soft penalty. He doesn't move into contact there, the Munster man ran straight into him. School boy error to put the shoulder in which is what's milked the penalty and put Munster 3-0 up.

Tigers attacking well but making errors and letting Munster clear.

[formerly known as Sam]

Graces is being exceptionally generous to Munster. The block on Manu following a chip over from Williams was considerably more deliberate and obvious than that of Worth.

[formerly known as Sam]

Absolutely shocking from Garces. Collapsed maul and the ball is presented. Two Munster players straight off their feet cynically killing the ball and it's given as turnover. Incompetent.

[Heaf]

No change there - Garces is normally pretty useless

[formerly known as Sam]

Genuinely one of the worst reffing displays I've ever seen.

Youngs pinged for not wrapping the arms in the clear out. Despite the fact he clearly has arms wrapped round the body of the player. Shocking.

[Heaf]

OK worse than useless ...

[formerly known as Sam]

How Munster aren't down to 14 as well mystifies me. That's cynically killing the ball.

Can't complain with the Manu yellow.

[Heaf]

Yep - he's being ridiculously lenient on Munster ...

[formerly known as Sam]

That penalty against Hamilton is embarrassing. I think Bylendaal misses the penalty out of honesty. Hamilton couldn't have come any more through the middle. It was literally the definition of through the middle.

[Heaf]

Garces truly is woeful - a shaved chimp couldn't do any worse ...

[marty2086]

Garces? Shows how much attention you are paying to game when your complaining about a ref who isnt even there

[eirebilly]

As a Munster fan, I must say they have had the rub of the green with the ref. Some awful decisions against Leicester out there. If Manu goes for 10 then POM should have gone for 10 for deliberately killing the ball.

Leicester a different beast this week and I think they will beat Munster from here.

[Guest]

Garces truly is woeful - a shaved chimp couldn't do any worse ...

Pascal Gauzere

or .... Pascal the rascal

[formerly known as Sam]

Garces truly is woeful - a shaved chimp couldn't do any worse ...

Pascal Gauzere

or .... Pascal the rascal

Yes. Well corrected.

[formerly known as Sam]

As a Munster fan, I must say they have had the rub of the green with the ref. Some awful decisions against Leicester out there. If Manu goes for 10 then POM should have gone for 10 for deliberately killing the ball.

Leicester a different beast this week and I think they will beat Munster from here.

It's a good ding dong battle. Very physical and hotly contested in every area.

[formerly known as Sam]

Two cynical penalties and not even a warning for Munster. They'll be grinning about that. Conceding three whilst on the back foot their is nothing.

[formerly known as Sam]

Tigers are still too flat in attack and it's putting pressure on handling skills that aren't that great.

[Heaf]

Garces? Shows how much attention you are paying to game when your complaining about a ref who isnt even there

Ooops - but in my defence Garces is woeful too

[mid_gen]

Refereeing is a shambles at the moment. That wasn't even a penalty let alone a yellow. Awful decision.

[Rugby Fan]

Very harsh penalty and yellow card there.

Means it's 15-9 to Leicester.

[Heaf]

Think the TMO is trying to balance out the rubbish decisions by the ref ... whoever he is 

[Pot Hale]

Munster very slloppy in attack and look decidedly second best to Leicester who want the win. Glasgow will be happy and hope that Leicester can extend the margin beyond 7.

[formerly known as Sam]

Bit of a harsh one on Zebo. I quite fancied the 5m lineout as opposed to the penalty.

[Heaf]

oh that was close ...

[formerly known as Sam]

Moronic from Fitzgerald. He's calling the lineout and he knows that the ref will not let Tigers compete in defence of the maul. What does he decide to do? Not compete in the air. Could have gifted Munster the game. I hope he doesn't have his contract renewed in the summer.

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