Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

A good move by PRO12, one which is to be applauded.


Martin Anayi:

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

WalesOnline.

Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

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If it saves one future match thread from descending into nonsense, then I applaud the decision. That's why they did it right?

wolfball wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

\\

If it saves one future match thread from descending into nonsense, then I applaud the decision. That's why they did it right?

It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

What's also positive about this story is that it's in line with what Anayi said he was going to do as part of the issues that needed to be tackled:

They've changed the season schedule and introduced more Big Event weekends
Knocked Sunday matches on the head
Building and promoting Desination Final
Better TV scheduling
Bringing in more neutral referees
Better promotion of the league

And they're working on
Seeking to remove league matches from test Windows
Improve and extend sponsorship
Expand league to generate/increase revenues
Potential conference/pool system for league

So far, so good. Some big fish still to be caught and landed though.

Pot Hale wrote:What's also positive about this story is that it's in line with what Anayi said he was going to do as part of the issues that needed to be tackled:

They've changed the season schedule and introduced more Big Event weekends
Knocked Sunday matches on the head
Building and promoting Desination Final
Better TV scheduling
Bringing in more neutral referees
Better promotion of the league

And they're working on
Seeking to remove league matches from test Windows
Improve and extend sponsorship
Expand league to generate/increase revenues
Potential conference/pool system for league

So far, so good.   Some big fish still to be caught and landed though.

Yep, Anayi wants the 6N's pushed back at least 3 weeks. Hopefully we hear a response to that before the end of year, as suggested.

Big changes ahead  

Also, can we remove one of the bye weekends from the 6nations? 3 weekends, weekend off, 2 weekends should work?

Pot Hale wrote:
Knocked Sunday matches on the head

That's not true

Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:What's also positive about this story is that it's in line with what Anayi said he was going to do as part of the issues that needed to be tackled:

They've changed the season schedule and introduced more Big Event weekends
Knocked Sunday matches on the head
Building and promoting Desination Final
Better TV scheduling
Bringing in more neutral referees
Better promotion of the league

And they're working on
Seeking to remove league matches from test Windows
Improve and extend sponsorship
Expand league to generate/increase revenues
Potential conference/pool system for league

So far, so good.   Some big fish still to be caught and landed though.

Yep, Anayi wants the 6N's pushed back at least 3 weeks. Hopefully we hear a response to that before the end of year, as suggested.

Big changes ahead  

It's more than 3 weeks he's suggesting, Munchkin. If the PRO12 wants to move to a 18/19 week season, then allowing for same start in September, they have 8 weeks before November break for tests. Then approx 16/17 weeks to finish off club season and European matches by end of March. Anayi is proposing that Six Nations would run from start of April to mid-May before Champions League final and BBC events like British Open, Wimbledon and Olympics.

I'm not sure if in that scenario, the June tests would likely be scrapped rather than moved into July.

Interesting times.

According to the IrishExaminer Anayi is insisting at least three weeks, although he doesn't actually quote that in the article. Anayi does state that he would like the PRO12 season to end before the start of the 6N's though.

I can't see 6N's agreeing to it but with four NH Unions, assuming all those Unions agree, coupled with pressure from the SH, who knows?

Interesting times, indeed.

Munchkin wrote:According to the IrishExaminer Anayi is insisting at least three weeks, although he doesn't actually quote that in the article. Anayi does state that he would like the PRO12 season to end before the start of the 6N's though.

I can't see 6N's agreeing to it but with four NH Unions, assuming all those Unions agree, coupled with pressure from the SH, who knows?

Interesting times, indeed.

Yes - I don't know how journalists have come up,with three weeks - RTE said it as well. I've posted an interview with Anayi from a Welsh journalist in the PRO 12 US Expansion thread. In it, Anayi is quoted as saying April and May.

As with all officials I just want to see wrong calls addressed. Not on the points table but simply by press releases or statements. At least some way to show that refs are being held to account.
With TMOs and regular coverage replays we can see when officials make awful calls. Does anything happen? No! Refs are allowed to get it wrong, shut up and move on. That appears to be how the game works.

clivemcl wrote:As with all officials I just want to see wrong calls addressed. Not on the points table but simply by press releases or statements. At least some way to show that refs are being held to account.
With TMOs and regular coverage replays we can see when officials make awful calls. Does anything happen? No! Refs are allowed to get it wrong, shut up and move on. That appears to be how the game works.

I don't agree with that at all, theres been instances were world rugby have said the ref got it wrong, Aus v Sco I think was the last one.

If a player makes a big mistake in a game the coach doesn't hang them out in the press and blame the player (yes it has happened).

If a ref makes a mistake it should be highlighted in the review, with many other details these reviews shouldn't be released to the press or anyone else, just like player reviews after games are not released.

Kingshu wrote:

clivemcl wrote:As with all officials I just want to see wrong calls addressed. Not on the points table but simply by press releases or statements. At least some way to show that refs are being held to account.
With TMOs and regular coverage replays we can see when officials make awful calls. Does anything happen? No! Refs are allowed to get it wrong, shut up and move on. That appears to be how the game works.

I don't agree with that at all, theres been instances were world rugby have said the ref got it wrong, Aus v Sco I think was the last one.

If a player makes a big mistake in a game the coach doesn't hang them out in the press and blame the player (yes it has happened).

If a ref makes a mistake it should be highlighted in the review, with many other details these reviews shouldn't be released to the press or anyone else, just like player reviews after games are not released.

But a player, get'spaid a lot and you just know they will be held to account. My point is, we don't have any indication that refs are held to account. The press thing, I agree can be a bit nasty. But it's about re-assuring teams and fans that refs are expected to do better. It comes across currently as though there are no consequences for doing your job poorly.

Especially if competition progress, silverware and ticket income are at stake. You know there have been times when the TMO would have cleared up the situation but the ref ignores players and sticks to his (incorrect) guns.

Dai Llewod wrote:Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

I've just opened the link and it's got tickets for the final on there. You do know that some websites read cookies on your PC and then base advertising on your browsing history, so if you have been spending a lot of time on Ulster's website that's what would pop up ?

Are you a secret Ulster fan Dai ?

clivemcl wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

clivemcl wrote:As with all officials I just want to see wrong calls addressed. Not on the points table but simply by press releases or statements. At least some way to show that refs are being held to account.
With TMOs and regular coverage replays we can see when officials make awful calls. Does anything happen? No! Refs are allowed to get it wrong, shut up and move on. That appears to be how the game works.

I don't agree with that at all, theres been instances were world rugby have said the ref got it wrong, Aus v Sco I think was the last one.

If a player makes a big mistake in a game the coach doesn't hang them out in the press and blame the player (yes it has happened).

If a ref makes a mistake it should be highlighted in the review, with many other details these reviews shouldn't be released to the press or anyone else, just like player reviews after games are not released.

But a player, get'spaid a lot and you just know they will be held to account. My point is, we don't have any indication that refs are held to account. The press thing, I agree can be a bit nasty. But it's about re-assuring teams and fans that refs are expected to do better. It comes across currently as though there are no consequences for doing your job poorly.

Especially if competition progress, silverware and ticket income are at stake. You know there have been times when the TMO would have cleared up the situation but the ref ignores players and sticks to his (incorrect) guns.

In fairness, there's only so much that can be done about bad (for want of a better word) refereeing. The Pro12, as with any league, and the game in general, only has a finite number of referees that are up to standard, and if they make mistakes, it's not as if we can take them out of rotation and replace them with referees that aren't up to standard, i.e. worse.

Dai Llewod wrote:A good move by PRO12, one which is to be applauded.


Martin Anayi:

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

WalesOnline.

I said it at the time and with many instances since, the decision in the game quoted was totally and utterly wrong, I've seen at least 20 instances since when tackles were interpreted as not been completed that were more viable than the instance in our game against Connacht,
and were totally ignored by ALL officials.
Let me just add, there have been wrong decisions by Welsh TMO's as well, Derek Bevan has been guilty of a number in recent years, I'm also NOT of the opinion that the INCOMPETENCE of this League is down to Irish organisation or officials.
For me this move highlights that our League is moving in the right direction and applaud the steps being taken.

Referees gets paid as well, the employer wants to make sure they are preforming and like any job if not there will be discussions etc.

There is a body that reviews the games and takes feedback for teams, and constantly reviews the referees performance. Just because they don't publish it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They shouldn't and don't say that X is on a warning etc, though sometimes you can see when refs have been dropped to AIL League games or so that they haven't been doing the best. The the review body shouldn't make a statement like you want that X has been dropped to AIL because of a number of poor games. When asked they actually word it well that X is there to gain experience/get back to match fitness etc, rather than let it be know that its for poor performance.

If they did make public the consequences of poor performances, how would the ref feel? Do you think he would stay in the job to be publicly critiqued by his employer? Would you?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

I've just opened the link and it's got tickets for the final on there. You do know that some websites read cookies on your PC and then base advertising on your browsing history, so if you have been spending a lot of time on Ulster's website that's what would pop up ?

Are you a secret Ulster fan Dai ?

So you aren't seeing an advert and link underneath the Ulster home games to buy tickets?

I think it's a good idea to advertise tickets for matches on the official Pro12 website. I'm just a bit confused as to why the only regular season games you can buy tickets for are Ulster home games.

Honestly no - how to register for email/text updates and an advert for the final !

Irish Londoner wrote:Honestly no - how to register for email/text updates and an advert for the final !

Strange, everyone I've spoken to sees Ulster tickets for sale underneath the Ulster home games.

At the bottom of the page there's an ad for the final.

Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

When a TMO identifies foul play on an Irish player I bet you're of a different opinion - and you lot aren't as keen on receiving as you are giving, are ya?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Honestly no - how to register for email/text updates and an advert for the final !

Strange, everyone I've spoken to sees Ulster tickets for sale underneath the Ulster home games.

I see the links. You are probably confusing people by calling them Ads. They are looking for a banner ad.

Ulster marketing dept are probably first out of the traps in taking advantage of this opportunity. Bad marks to Leinster marketing dept and the other 10 also.

The new layout of the page is hideous btw. You can only see about 6 fixtures at a time.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Honestly no - how to register for email/text updates and an advert for the final !

Strange, everyone I've spoken to sees Ulster tickets for sale underneath the Ulster home games.

I see the links. You are probably confusing people by calling them Ads. They are looking for a banner ad.

Ulster marketing dept are probably first out of the traps in taking advantage of this opportunity. Bad marks to Leinster marketing dept and the other 10 also.

Thank goodness for that, I thought I was going mad. All 12 teams have online links to buy tickets don't they, so I'm not sure how 11 of them could have failed like this on Launch Day. Bizarre.

The new layout of the page is hideous btw. You can only see about 6 fixtures at a time.

It's a terrible website.

Yes. It's gone down the road of the Ercc website which is even worse in fairness.

Munchkin wrote:It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

Look, if Martin Anayi has seen it as an issue, then I doubt it is because of what goes on on this forum. I very much doubt he reads V2 to come to any decisions that might have to be made with the Pro12. So, it cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it, it is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

When a TMO identifies foul play on an Irish player I bet you're of a different opinion - and you lot aren't as keen on receiving as you are giving, are ya?

You're way of base. I have seen bad calls by TMO's from all four nations involved in PRO12, and those from other leagues. Not that it happens all the time, just that it happens. My biggest complaint with the use of TMO is the time it eats up. And then there are refs who bottle calls by leaving it up to the TMO to make the call.

P.s it's "your lot" that complains most about TMO.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

Look, if Martin Anayi has seen it as an issue, then I doubt it is because of what goes on on this forum. I very much doubt he reads V2 to come to any decisions that might have to be made with the Pro12. So, it cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it, it is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

Read exactly what Anayi said. Anayi is saying the complaints are unfounded.

LordDowlais wrote:It cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it

Well that's clearly not true.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

Look, if Martin Anayi has seen it as an issue, then I doubt it is because of what goes on on this forum. I very much doubt he reads V2 to come to any decisions that might have to be made with the Pro12. So, it cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it, it is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

Read exactly what Anayi said. Anayi is saying the complaints are unfounded.

OK, I'm sorry. Mr Anayi must obviously read this forum, then change the league to suit us. How could I have been so blind as to not realise that.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it

Well that's clearly not true.

Why is it not true ?

A conspiracy theory is something that might not be true. A conspiracy theory is an explanatory or speculative hypothesis suggesting that two or more persons, or an organization, have conspired to cause or cover up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an event or situation typically regarded as illegal or harmful. The term conspiracy theory has derogatory connotations, suggesting explanations that invoke conspiracies without warrant, often producing hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of historical events or simple facts

Thus no action needs to be taken.

Martin Anayi has said that when people here an Irish accent making a call then people can see it as a sign of bias. That is not a conspiracy theory, that my friend is a fact. Thus changes had to be made to eradicate the fact. It also does not help when we here these accents and the calls are very dodgy to say the least, as pointed out by wayne above, along with a lot of others, like when Nick Williams knocked out Rhys Patchell and the TMO only deemed it to be a yellow, plus countless others that went the Welsh way when Derek Bevan was the TMO.

Thus action has to be taken.

Taking action to reduce accusations of bias isn't an admission of bias.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

Look, if Martin Anayi has seen it as an issue, then I doubt it is because of what goes on on this forum. I very much doubt he reads V2 to come to any decisions that might have to be made with the Pro12. So, it cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it, it is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

Read exactly what Anayi said. Anayi is saying the complaints are unfounded.

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Taking action to remove accusations of bias isn't an admission of bias.

LD, Chunky, Dai, Phil all had this explained to them before but it just doesn't seep into their head

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It is, according to Anayi, and it will certainly limit some of the moaning/conspiracy theories on these threads. For me, the TMO's just aren't up to standard in any league, but happy enough for this much.

Look, if Martin Anayi has seen it as an issue, then I doubt it is because of what goes on on this forum. I very much doubt he reads V2 to come to any decisions that might have to be made with the Pro12. So, it cannot be a conspiracy theory if they are doing something about it, it is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

Read exactly what Anayi said. Anayi is saying the complaints are unfounded.

OK, I'm sorry. Mr Anayi must obviously read this forum, then change the league to suit us. How could I have been so blind as to not realise that.

Not specifically to this forum, LD, but generally to those who complain about TMO's, as witnessed on this forum. At the very least it will remove cause for claims of an Irish conspiracy as witnessed here.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Taking action to reduce accusations of bias isn't an admission of bias.

I never said it was. I said it was a problem, and it is. It is a problem that needed sorting. So that is not a conspiracy theory like certain Irish members like to peddle.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Why on earth would he need to spend £150,000 addressing claims, if they were "unfounded"?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Why on earth would he need to spend £150,000 addressing claims, if they were "unfounded"?

Can you not read? Read what he actually said and, when you realise that it is the bias of fans he's tackling, write to him and complain about the waste of money.

Munchkin wrote:Not specifically to this forum, LD, but generally to those who complain about TMO's, as witnessed on this forum. At the very least it will remove cause for claims of an Irish conspiracy as witnessed here.

First off, I have NEVER said that there was an Irish conspiracy in our league. I challenge you to find a quote where I have said such a thing.

Secondly, the major issue I have in our league is the fact that we have union controlled teams and officials, straight away that undermines the credibility of our league, I have always said from day one, that I want our officials employed by the league, no matter where they were born.

Would you now put Martin Anayi in the same category as people like me for now admitting there is a problem ? At least he is now trying to sort this issue out and get some credibility back to the Pro12.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Not specifically to this forum, LD, but generally to those who complain about TMO's, as witnessed on this forum. At the very least it will remove cause for claims of an Irish conspiracy as witnessed here.

First off, I have NEVER said that there was an Irish conspiracy in our league. I challenge you to find a quote where I have said such a thing.

Secondly, the major issue I have in our league is the fact that we have union controlled teams and officials, straight away that undermines the credibility of our league, I have always said from day one, that I want our officials employed by the league, no matter where they were born.

Would you now put Martin Anayi in the same category as people like me for now admitting there is a problem ? At least he is now trying to sort this issue out and get some credibility back to the Pro12.

Who said you did?

Munchkin wrote:Who said you did?

I took your quote has aimed at me.

Also, I do not see any conspiracy theories on here. I see people claiming the league is geared towards Ireland, but no conspiracy theories.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Who said you did?

I took your quote has aimed at me.

Also, I do not see any conspiracy theories on here. I see people claiming the league is geared towards Ireland, but no conspiracy theories.

You don't see conspiracy theories here. You don't see....

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Why on earth would he need to spend £150,000 addressing claims, if they were "unfounded"?

Can you not read? Read what he actually said and, when you realise that it is the bias of fans he's tackling, write to him and complain about the waste of money.

So he will spend £150,000 tackling any unfounded claim then? You point is ridiculous. The league took action because there was a problem. Not to shut a few fans up.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Who said you did?

I took your quote has aimed at me.

Also, I do not see any conspiracy theories on here. I see people claiming the league is geared towards Ireland, but no conspiracy theories.

And that's merely a theory about a conspiracy?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Why on earth would he need to spend £150,000 addressing claims, if they were "unfounded"?

Can you not read? Read what he actually said and, when you realise that it is the bias of fans he's tackling, write to him and complain about the waste of money.

So he will spend £150,000 tackling any unfounded claim then? You point is ridiculous. The league took action because there was a problem. Not to shut a few fans up.

Because if fans are complaining about bias that can turn fans off from the league, that's less money across the board for everyone so £150k is a drop in the ocean

It's a good step. The league should be applauded for it. Unfortunately the thread has gone completely off the rails because the usual certain posters have decided that it is "Welsh fans" that were the cause of the problem. Same s*** different day.