Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

First topic message reminder :

A good move by PRO12, one which is to be applauded.


Martin Anayi:

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

WalesOnline.

marty2086 wrote:It was Garrett Fitzgerald, hes CEO of Munster not the Irish provinces and hes not exactly a man who can be listened to considering he seems out of his depth in the job.

OK

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It was Garrett Fitzgerald, hes CEO of Munster not the Irish provinces and hes not exactly a man who can be listened to considering he seems out of his depth in the job.

OK

You disagree?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It was Garrett Fitzgerald, hes CEO of Munster not the Irish provinces and hes not exactly a man who can be listened to considering he seems out of his depth in the job.

OK

You disagree?

I think it's funny that he "can't be listened to" because he's said something that goes against your agenda.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It was Garrett Fitzgerald, hes CEO of Munster not the Irish provinces and hes not exactly a man who can be listened to considering he seems out of his depth in the job.

OK

You disagree?

I think it's funny that he "can't be listened to" because he's said something that goes against your agenda.

No I tend not to listen to him at all considering the shambles he made of Munster

marty2086 wrote:It was Garrett Fitzgerald, hes CEO of Munster not the Irish provinces and hes not exactly a man who can be listened to considering he seems out of his depth in the job.

To be fair Marty, it would be great for the Irish teams to be in a B & I league, I've no doubt that given the same access to TV money and other income all the provinces could compete at the top end of it. Of course that's also the reason why the English would never want it.

By the way he only talks of the Irish and English no mention of anybody else so it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

How would you know my thought process as a relatively new member? Unless your not?

And he talks of Irish teams and the Irish market in England, no mention of the Italians, Scottish or Welsh but of course he meant them

To be honest. A British and Irish league will never happen, to put it bluntly, the English do not need us, so why should they take all our baggage on as well. They would definitely not want more union control over their league by having union run teams in there, the clubs in England do not get on with their own union, never mind others joining in.

The one thing that annoys me most on here is though, is that if you have an opinion that you think something is wrong with the league, then some of our Irish members on here get all defensive and instead of being constructive, we end up with a willy waving contest. Then all of a sudden it's Welsh members slagging the league off again. There are only about two or three Welsh members on here who seriously dislike the Pro12, out of about 20.

Its not like you're calling the whole thing corrupt or anything

marty2086 wrote:Its not like you're calling the whole thing corrupt or anything

And here it is, right on cue, the perfect example to back up what I am saying, you see, for every PhilBB, There is a marty2086. Only on V2.

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

How would you know my thought process as a relatively new member? Unless your not?

And he talks of Irish teams and the Irish market in England, no mention of the Italians, Scottish or Welsh but of course he meant them

Eh? Your thought process has been detailed on this thread. It's bizarre logic. Just concentrate on the Irish teams if you'd like. It's the same point being made. A British and Irish League is the ultimate goal and the only way the Celtic nations will compete. Yet the blazers at the top are sadly blocking it.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

How would you know my thought process as a relatively new member? Unless your not?

And he talks of Irish teams and the Irish market in England, no mention of the Italians, Scottish or Welsh but of course he meant them

Eh? Your thought process has been detailed on this thread. It's bizarre logic. Just concentrate on the Irish teams if you'd like. It's the same point being made. A British and Irish League is the ultimate goal and the only way the Celtic nations will compete. Yet the blazers at the top are sadly blocking it.

My logics bizarre?

He never mentions anyone but the Irish and English so its bizarre to think hes just thinking along those line?

You cite one of those blazers saying he sees it as the ultimate goal yet the blazers are the ones blocking it? And its my logics that bizarre, a guy on here called Chunky used to do things like that funny that...

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

How would you know my thought process as a relatively new member? Unless your not?

And he talks of Irish teams and the Irish market in England, no mention of the Italians, Scottish or Welsh but of course he meant them

Eh? Your thought process has been detailed on this thread. It's bizarre logic. Just concentrate on the Irish teams if you'd like. It's the same point being made. A British and Irish League is the ultimate goal and the only way the Celtic nations will compete. Yet the blazers at the top are sadly blocking it.

My logics bizarre?

He never mentions anyone but the Irish and English so its bizarre to think hes just thinking along those line?

You cite one of those blazers saying he sees it as the ultimate goal yet the blazers are the ones blocking it? And its my logics that bizarre, a guy on here called Chunky used to do things like that funny that...

It's bizarre to come to the conclusion that :

he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

When he has mentioned nothing of the sort.

The blazers I refer to are the ones that run the Union and own the provinces. I have no idea what your last sentence refers to sorry.

That's hardly bizarre, it was said in jest as much as anything

The provinces are owned by the branches and hes an IRFU employee so he is who you are talking about

You do know what the final lines about

LordDowlais wrote:To be honest. A British and Irish league will never happen, to put it bluntly, the English do not need us, so why should they take all our baggage on as well. They would definitely not want more union control over their league by having union run teams in there, the clubs in England do not get on with their own union, never mind others joining in.

The one thing that annoys me most on here is though, is that if you have an opinion that you think something is wrong with the league, then some of our Irish members on here get all defensive and instead of being constructive, we end up with a willy waving contest. Then all of a sudden it's Welsh members slagging the league off again. There are only about two or three Welsh members on here who seriously dislike the Pro12, out of about 20.

I think you're right LD, the problem is that we do need a discussion of the future of the PRO12, without it being derailed by "PR'O 12" jibes, suggestions that the whole league is run by the IRFU for their benefit - as though the WRU and Welsh clubs have no agency in this, the constant negativity, etc. Then it's not surprising that it descends into a slagging match.

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

As I posted previously, the Aviva don't want us - not the Welsh, not the Irish, not anyone, maybe the league isn't ideal and needs change but the one option that isn't ever going to be on the table is scrapping it.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Or say someone said one thing when they said another

Marty, you said that in the UK judicial system, there are instances where the judge, solicitor, the person in the dock and the jury are all on the same payroll. Didn't you ? Now when you admit you said this, can you please tell me what you meant by it ?

And for the record, 7&1/2 is the worst for trying to be overly clever just to win the internet, as annoying as you can be at times, you are not at his level, in fact you are nowhere near his level.

Completely true, best bit is when you use words you don't understand and get flustered and sweary.

Irish Londoner wrote:What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

It's not just the Welsh posters though is it ? The Irish members on here who will not even consider another persons opinion if it suggests changes to their system. It's straight away, crash bang wallop, and before you know it, you are a conspiracy theorist who belongs in a loony bin.

We are all just fans at the end of the day, we all like the same sport. There is no need for this always trying to win the internet. Sometimes, perhaps we should consider other people opinions before you try and hang them out to dry.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote: it seems he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

I think that's an excellent example of a typical marty2086 thought process.

How would you know my thought process as a relatively new member? Unless your not?

And he talks of Irish teams and the Irish market in England, no mention of the Italians, Scottish or Welsh but of course he meant them

Eh? Your thought process has been detailed on this thread. It's bizarre logic. Just concentrate on the Irish teams if you'd like. It's the same point being made. A British and Irish League is the ultimate goal and the only way the Celtic nations will compete. Yet the blazers at the top are sadly blocking it.

My logics bizarre?

He never mentions anyone but the Irish and English so its bizarre to think hes just thinking along those line?

You cite one of those blazers saying he sees it as the ultimate goal yet the blazers are the ones blocking it? And its my logics that bizarre, a guy on here called Chunky used to do things like that funny that...

It's bizarre to come to the conclusion that :

he thinks Wales should go play by themselves

When he has mentioned nothing of the sort.

The blazers I refer to are the ones that run the Union and own the provinces. I have no idea what your last sentence refers to sorry.

Blocking it would suggest the English clubs are on board.

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

It's not just the Welsh posters though is it ? The Irish members on here who will not even consider another persons opinion if it suggests changes to their system. It's straight away, crash bang wallop, and before you know it, you are a conspiracy theorist who belongs in a loony bin.

We are all just fans at the end of the day, we all like the same sport. There is no need for this always trying to win the internet. Sometimes, perhaps we should consider other people opinions before you try and hang them out to dry.

That's not true. The Irish on here have been fairly open to discussing changes to the league, and have discussed at length major changes to the league.

It's Chunky & Co. who are blinkered in their pursuit of a fantasy, and it is they who greet any change to PRO12 with contempt.

Munchkin wrote:That's not true. The Irish on here have been fairly open to discussing changes to the league, and have discussed at length major changes to the league

Isn't it ? OK then, what are your thoughts on union controlled teams AND officials going up against privately owned teams ?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

You have made that up. You don't know that. PRO12 are exploring ways to increase revenue, and we will just have to wait and see what success that achieves, if any.

Whichever way you look at it; the English don't want you. It's nothing to do with the "blazers". The English don't want you and that's something you ignore. To accept that reality would destroy your fantasy, your obsession.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

As a wise man once said

There are those who see things that are and ask 'why?', I see things that aren't and ask 'why not?'

You say it can't be done without the English and French but that merely shows you have a narrow focus.

The whole point of the Pro12 looking towards the US is the vast sums of money on offer in their tv market along with the potential to attract the global brands that operate in the market place.

Italy has potential to offer a scale version of what France gets in terms of revenue because of population size, global brands and overall demographics.

Rugby 7s in the Olympics was designed to attract a larger audience to the sport as a whole because Olympic sports gain more funding particularly in countries like the US, Russia, China and Japan plus to generate a wider audience. This can is a move that the likes of the Pro12 can piggyback on and its one the AP, NZRU and IRFU are already doing.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:That's not true. The Irish on here have been fairly open to discussing changes to the league, and have discussed at length major changes to the league

Isn't it ? OK then, what are your thoughts on union controlled teams AND officials going up against privately owned teams ?

You and Phil are the only ones who actually have a problem with it

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:That's not true. The Irish on here have been fairly open to discussing changes to the league, and have discussed at length major changes to the league

Isn't it ? OK then, what are your thoughts on union controlled teams AND officials going up against privately owned teams ?

You know my thoughts on it. There is no "union owned teams and officials going up against privately owned teams'. It's all in your head, LD. You have admitted as much by conceding that there is no real bias, and so you shouldn't really have an issue.... unless you're lying and think there is a bias?

And there we go for everyone on here to see. Two of the main culprits on here for causing problems are off again.

Straight away, telling me things are in my head, spouting crap about bias, when it has not even been mentioned, totally ignoring another persons opinion, then suggesting I might be a liar.

But hey ho, it's all down to the Welsh members on here.

If its not about bias then whats it about?

You ask a question about something then when you don't like the answer act like you are being picked on.

LordDowlais wrote:And there we go for everyone on here to see. Two of the main culprits on here for causing problems are off again.

Straight away, telling me things are in my head, spouting crap about bias, when it has not even been mentioned, totally ignoring another persons opinion, then suggesting I might be a liar.

But hey ho, it's all down to the Welsh members on here.

It appears it's you that isn't willing to debate.

You are the one who said, very clearly, that there is no bias. With you conceding that there is no bias then your points about 'union owned teams' are moot. I'm sure you have at least enough wit to understand this.

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

As a wise man once said

There are those who see things that are and ask 'why?', I see things that aren't and ask 'why not?'

You say it can't be done without the English and French but that merely shows you have a narrow focus.

The whole point of the Pro12 looking towards the US is the vast sums of money on offer in their tv market along with the potential to attract the global brands that operate in the market place.

Italy has potential to offer a scale version of what France gets in terms of revenue because of population size, global brands and overall demographics.

Rugby 7s in the Olympics was designed to attract a larger audience to the sport as a whole because Olympic sports gain more funding particularly in countries like the US, Russia, China and Japan plus to generate a wider audience. This can is a move that the likes of the Pro12 can piggyback on and its one the AP, NZRU and IRFU are already doing.

You've been duped. The USA / Canada / Spain thing is just a smokescreen to try and pretend the Pro12 is seriously trying to make up that gap between Celtic rugby and the French and English. They know it's a non starter. It won't make a dent in the shortfall. If it does get off the ground and makes up even half of the gap (which is a deal worth about £25m a season), then I'll be the first to come on here and say they've pulled it off, what a coup. But they won't because the blazers are clinging to the cliff by their fingernails with all the strength they can muster. Like a forlorn dictator hiding in a bunker sitting on his golden toilet while all around him lies a destructed war zone.

marty2086 wrote:If its not about bias then whats it about?

It's about the credibility of the league. The fact that Martin Anayi has even had to address these issues proves that it affects the credibility of the league, lets not pretend he is doing this too keep the Welsh happy. The fact I can say, "It's not fair to have refs AND teams all employed by the same organisation" as a fact is affecting the league.

You will always get bias calls. But the fact that referees in our league are under the same employment as the teams they are impartial to does raise a topic of discussion and I am sorry to tell you, THAT IS NOT JUST IN MY HEAD.

Munchkin wrote:It appears it's you that isn't willing to debate.

I am very willing to debate. It is you who is not, you will not even admit there is a problem even though Martin Anayi is making moves and spending a lot of money to sort the problem out. If there is no problem, then what is Martin Anayi doing ?

Munchkin wrote:You are the one who said, very clearly, that there is no bias. With you conceding that there is no bias then your points about 'union owned teams' are moot. I'm sure you have at least enough wit to understand this.

I give up, I really do.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

As a wise man once said

There are those who see things that are and ask 'why?', I see things that aren't and ask 'why not?'

You say it can't be done without the English and French but that merely shows you have a narrow focus.

The whole point of the Pro12 looking towards the US is the vast sums of money on offer in their tv market along with the potential to attract the global brands that operate in the market place.

Italy has potential to offer a scale version of what France gets in terms of revenue because of population size, global brands and overall demographics.

Rugby 7s in the Olympics was designed to attract a larger audience to the sport as a whole because Olympic sports gain more funding particularly in countries like the US, Russia, China and Japan plus to generate a wider audience. This can is a move that the likes of the Pro12 can piggyback on and its one the AP, NZRU and IRFU are already doing.

You've been duped. The USA / Canada / Spain thing is just a smokescreen to try and pretend the Pro12 is seriously trying to make up that gap between Celtic rugby and the French and English. They know it's a non starter. It won't make a dent in the shortfall. If it does get off the ground and makes up even half of the gap (which is a deal worth about £25m a season), then I'll be the first to come on here and say they've pulled it off, what a coup. But they won't because the blazers are clinging to the cliff by their fingernails with all the strength they can muster. Like a forlorn dictator hiding in a bunker sitting on his golden toilet while all around him lies a destructed war zone.

And here another conspiracy theory.

In a language that you might understand;

it's possible that the English may join up with the Regions, but certainly not before planet Nibiru crosses earth orbit, and most probably not before an illuminati led Armageddon.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It appears it's you that isn't willing to debate.

I am very willing to debate. It is you who is not, you will not even admit there is a problem even though Martin Anayi is making moves and spending a lot of money to sort the problem out. If there is no problem, then what is Martin Anayi doing ?

Munchkin wrote:You are the one who said, very clearly, that there is no bias. With you conceding that there is no bias then your points about 'union owned teams' are moot. I'm sure you have at least enough wit to understand this.

I give up, I really do.

What problem? Spell it out. Are you talking about bias?

And when did Anayi ever mention an issue with Union owned teams, other than to mention their merits?

Munchkin wrote:What problem? Spell it out. Are you talking about bias?

I AM TALKING ABOUT CREDIBILITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are we having neutral TMO's ?

Why does Martin Anayi want to have a centrally controlled group of officials ?

IF there is NO PROBLEM, why is the person in charge of our league making these changes ?

Or is it all in his head as well ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If its not about bias then whats it about?

It's about the credibility of the league. The fact that Martin Anayi has even had to address these issues proves that it affects the credibility of the league, lets not pretend he is doing this too keep the Welsh happy. The fact I can say, "It's not fair to have refs AND teams all employed by the same organisation" as a fact is affecting the league.

You will always get bias calls. But the fact that referees in our league are under the same employment as the teams they are impartial to does raise a topic of discussion and I am sorry to tell you, THAT IS NOT JUST IN MY HEAD.

Actually that has nothing to do with the changes, they are being made on nationality basis not employer

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What problem? Spell it out. Are you talking about bias?

I AM TALKING ABOUT CREDIBILITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are we having neutral TMO's ?

Why does Martin Anayi want to have a centrally controlled group of officials ?

IF there is NO PROBLEM, why is the person in charge of our league making these changes ?

Or is it all in his head as well ?

So you are talking about bias!!! And you have the cheek to pour scorn on me for suggesting that (in your head) the issue was bias. A bias that you say doesn't exist, and a bias that Anayi says doesn't exist. And so your points about bias are moot, according to your own words.

To add to that; we have (you and me) already discussed the proposed change to TMO, and we both agreed. But don't let that get in the way of your false accusation towards the Irish, and your want to cry victim.

The PRO12 has made the decision about bringing in more neutral officials [edit: neutral TMOs and Asst refs] directly in response to issues/complaints raised by teams/coaches and by fans.

Martin Anayi said this very clearly.   The PRO12 ran a survey over the summer seeking fans views on a number of issues, including refs/TMOs.  

There is a perception of bias running alongside a perception and/or belief about the low refereeing standards of officials.

If the league is to be credible with its fans, teams, coaches, sponsors, advertisers, broadcasters, then it is an issue that has to be addressed.

Anayi says quite clearly that this is a first step along the way, as it will take about three more years to develop more officials in Italy and Scotland - that's their next objective.

I don't know what people are arguing about.  The OP who posted this article acknowledged that it was a good move by the PRO 12.   Everybody initially agreed and now it's descended into some stupid quarrel about definitions of bias, blah, blah, blah.

Bottom line is there is a problem.  It's been recognised and something is being done about it.

Look boys, stop trying to be clever.

Credibility does not mean bias.

Martin Anayi must be thinking along the same lines as me, we both agree there is no bias, but we still see a problem. It is just certain Irish members on here who cannot debate and would rather try and win the internet.

cred·i·bil·i·ty
ˌkredəˈbilədē/
noun
the quality of being trusted and believed in.
"the government's loss of credibility"
synonyms: trustworthiness, reliability, dependability, integrity; reputation, status
"does he possess the moral credibility the party is looking for?"


The bits in BOLD.

The fact that union controlled officials and teams affects the cred·i·bil·i·ty of our league is the problem for me and Mr Anayi.

LordDowlais wrote:Look boys, stop trying to be clever.

Credibility does not mean bias.

Martin Anayi must be thinking along the same lines as me, we both agree there is no bias, but we still see a problem. It is just certain Irish members on here who cannot debate and would rather try and win the internet.

cred·i·bil·i·ty
ˌkredəˈbilədē/
noun
the quality of being trusted and believed in.
"the government's loss of credibility"
synonyms: trustworthiness, reliability, dependability, integrity; reputation, status
"does he possess the moral credibility the party is looking for?"


The bits in BOLD.

.

It's you who is trying to play clever, and you're doing a very poor job of it. Anayi was talking about bias. You know this and you're attempting to squirm out of it.

Thank God for Pot Hale.

Munchkin. You are ruining this forum.

LordDowlais wrote:Thank God for Pot Hale.

And Pot is pointing out what? Bias! Something that you're pathetically trying to deny.

LordDowlais wrote:Look boys, stop trying to be clever.

Credibility does not mean bias.

Martin Anayi must be thinking along the same lines as me, we both agree there is no bias, but we still see a problem. It is just certain Irish members on here who cannot debate and would rather try and win the internet.

cred·i·bil·i·ty
ˌkredəˈbilədē/
noun
the quality of being trusted and believed in.
"the government's loss of credibility"
synonyms: trustworthiness, reliability, dependability, integrity; reputation, status
"does he possess the moral credibility the party is looking for?"


The bits in BOLD.

The fact that union controlled officials and teams affects the cred·i·bil·i·ty of our league is the problem for me and Mr Anayi.

Anayi has not said anything about union controlled officials and teams affecting the credibility of the league. I don't know if that's what you meant to write, but it's not true.

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin. You are ruining this forum.

No, I'm destroying your very weak argument. There's a difference.

Extracts from the article about this topic:

"Pro12 chiefs have moved to appease teams and their fans by introducing neutral television match officials for next season.

They took the decision, which will cost them about £150,000 a year to fund in extra travel and hotel bills, following a spate of controversies.

Sam Davies’ try for the Ospreys in Connacht was controversially disallowed and Edinburgh coach Alan Solomons had a blast at a Welsh assistant referee who flagged for a crucial penalty during a match at the Scarlets.

The previous campaign Connacht coach Pat Lam was fined 8,000 euros for comments he made about Welshman Leighton Hodges following a stormy clash against Cardiff Blues at the Arms Park.

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time.

“That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

Problem:   Perception of bias. Which in turns affects the credibility and quality of the league.  

Solution:  Make sure neutral TMOs and Asst refs can attend games now with a target of having 100% neutral officials including refs in three years time.

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin. You are ruining this forum.

LD, you are the one using Anayis statement and the Pro12s decision to try and back up your crackpot theories, if you cannot deal with your opinions being challenged then why is it someone elses problem?

Yes theres a problem with bias perception

No its not got anything to do with who is paying the refs and players

He has clearly said its down to nationality

There is however a complication with that as you have Neil Patterson, an Ulsterman under the SRU banner who in the past has reffed Ulster. While Anayi talks about nationality it will be interesting to see how that one plays out

LD knows Anayi was talking about bias. He knows he agreed with Anayi that there isn't a bias, and he knows that the Irish on here agreed with the proposed neutral TMO's.

None of that prevented his false accusations of Irish posters not debating the issue of a perception of bias and actually agreeing with him.....

Bias and credibility are different but connected concepts. You remove bias (perceived or otherwise) to increase credibility. The connection between such lofty concepts is difficult it seems.

LD. You play the victim card every bloody day. Stop whinging. And the rest, just foe list each other, its the same argument every day, and ye keep acting like someone's mind will be changed. It won't.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

What I think frustrates some posters on here is that the anti-PRO12 Welsh posters never seem to offer any constructive or realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved.

.

But there is a reason for that isn't there. The reason is that it is impossible to improve the Celtic League to the standard that is required. The money that is needed to keep Welsh, Irish and Scottish domestic rugby in touching distance with the French and English is not attainable without the French and/or English themselves.

So since the one thing we all agree on is that the English have no plans whatsoever to agree to that, what is the way forward ? Do we resign ourselves to being the poor relations and try and make the best of that or do we sit in our corners and hope that it will all go away?

If the Welsh get such a bad deal from the PRO12 why don't they just declare UDI, dissolve the regions and go back to a Welsh league system ? And if the Welsh dislike the PRO12 so much why is there a constant clamour for a reformed Valleys team to be created to join it ?

It sometimes seems that there are lots of underlying issues in Welsh domestic rugby, whether that's lack of engagement with the region clubs, "disnefranchisement", the lack of a Valleys team, the way money is dished out, what the private club owners are spending or not spending money on, the state of the semi-pro game in the Welsh leagues, the governance of the WRU, etc. that seem to get played out in the context of the PRO12 as a deflection for having a serious look inwards at whats going on in Wales.