Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#pass-accuracy#player-stats#english-premier-league|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#41#0#0#90#13/08/2016#13/10/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Lies damn lies and statistics,

Look at kantes pass stats! He can barely kick a ball.

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#pass-accuracy#player-stats#english-premier-league|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#41#0#0#90#13/08/2016#13/10/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Take a look at @JonathanFowle10's Tweet: https://twitter.com/JonathanFowle10/status/767359801378693120?s=09

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#pass-accuracy#player-stats#english-premier-league|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#41#0#0#90#13/08/2016#13/10/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Take a look at @JonathanFowle10's Tweet: https://twitter.com/JonathanFowle10/status/767359801378693120?s=09

Okay....? So?

One selective video on Twitter, compared to 7 games worth of data? Although the fact that you form your opinions on football from Twitter does explain a lot.

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#pass-accuracy#player-stats#english-premier-league|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#41#0#0#90#13/08/2016#13/10/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Take a look at @JonathanFowle10's Tweet: https://twitter.com/JonathanFowle10/status/767359801378693120?s=09

Okay....? So?

One selective video on Twitter, compared to 7 games worth of data? Although the fact that you form your opinions on football from Twitter does explain a lot.

I thought we were just exchanging pointless information


Like Dolph says - if Henderson was used as a box to box destroyer type he'd be fine (why he thrives in the diamond imo)but asking him to be the passer/creative hub for England will not work

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#pass-accuracy#player-stats#english-premier-league|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#41#0#0#90#13/08/2016#13/10/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Take a look at @JonathanFowle10's Tweet: https://twitter.com/JonathanFowle10/status/767359801378693120?s=09

Okay....? So?

One selective video on Twitter, compared to 7 games worth of data? Although the fact that you form your opinions on football from Twitter does explain a lot.

I thought we were just exchanging pointless information


Like Dolph says - if Henderson was used as a box to box destroyer type he'd be fine (why he thrives in the diamond imo)but asking him to be the passer/creative hub for England will not work

You said he struggles to pass the ball, I showed actual evidence that he can and in fact is one of the best in the Premier League at it. Whether those passes are easy, or are because of a system or anything like that, it's still evidence that he is good at passing the ball.

Henderson hasn't been used in that role for nearly 3 years! He's been playing a deeper and more creative role for Liverpool since the end of the 13/14 season, when Gerrard stopped playing every game. This season he's been playing as a "number 6" and has been thriving. What England player would be better at playing that role?

He's not a 6 for any team other than that Liverpool side, where basically he is protected due to the high standards ahead of him who work incredibly hard.

His creativity and ingenuity is appalling

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:He's not a 6 for any team other than that Liverpool side, where basically he is protected due to the high standards ahead of him who work incredibly hard.

His creativity and ingenuity is appalling

Total rubbish.

For one, there is no chance Klopp would continue to play him if this was the case.

Oh well Klopp couldn't ever make a mistake. Nor do you understand my point. But then you also think 29 means you can't play for your country any more

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Oh well Klopp couldn't ever make a mistake. Nor do you understand my point. But then you also think 29 means you can't play for your country any more

He can make mistakes but I trust his judgement of a player more than I trust yours.

I think it means there's not much point picking him for the first time now, he's not got any experience playing with any of the players also in the team (bar a couple), he's got no experience on the international stage or working with the FA and he's having an awful season. If he was a few years younger, it'd be worth integrating but he's going to be 31 by the time the next tournament comes along. Unfortunately, as much as I think he should have been selected for the last couple of tournament squads, or at least given a chance in friendlies and qualifying, his time has passed.

He's a journey man and quite rightly has never been considered for the national squad.

Henderson is not a great passer of the ball nor is he a great creator, stats aren't going to change perceptions of that.

Crimey wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Oh well Klopp couldn't ever make a mistake. Nor do you understand my point. But then you also think 29 means you can't play for your country any more

He can make mistakes but I trust his judgement of a player more than I trust yours.

I think it means there's not much point picking him for the first time now, he's not got any experience playing with any of the players also in the team (bar a couple), he's got no experience on the international stage or working with the FA and he's having an awful season. If he was a few years younger, it'd be worth integrating but he's going to be 31 by the time the next tournament comes along. Unfortunately, as much as I think he should have been selected for the last couple of tournament squads, or at least given a chance in friendlies and qualifying, his time has passed.

The main problem is that my point wasnt that he wasnt a 6 for Liverpool. Its that he isnt for any other side in England. As condescending as you can try and be about it, the actual point is that Liverpool's current style is so unbelievably unlike England's that it is nowhere near the same skill set or position, really.

Noble isn't worth a place much right now, but its the age thing that bothers me. He doesnt need experience with the other players, the other two points after that are also nonsense. Working with the FA?!

Players should be picked for the best possible squad NOW. Not in 4 years or any guff. Built for the future for 20 years, it has never come.

Ent wrote:He's a journey man and quite rightly has never been considered for the national squad.

Over what? I've seen England midfields for years that most would call journeyman level.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Oh well Klopp couldn't ever make a mistake. Nor do you understand my point. But then you also think 29 means you can't play for your country any more

He can make mistakes but I trust his judgement of a player more than I trust yours.

I think it means there's not much point picking him for the first time now, he's not got any experience playing with any of the players also in the team (bar a couple), he's got no experience on the international stage or working with the FA and he's having an awful season. If he was a few years younger, it'd be worth integrating but he's going to be 31 by the time the next tournament comes along. Unfortunately, as much as I think he should have been selected for the last couple of tournament squads, or at least given a chance in friendlies and qualifying, his time has passed.

The main problem is that my point wasnt that he wasnt a 6 for Liverpool. Its that he isnt for any other side in England. As condescending as you can try and be about it, the actual point is that Liverpool's current style is so unbelievably unlike England's that it is nowhere near the same skill set or position, really.

Noble isn't worth a place much right now, but its the age thing that bothers me. He doesnt need experience with the other players, the other two points after that are also nonsense. Working with the FA?!

Players should be picked for the best possible squad NOW. Not in 4 years or any guff. Built for the future for 20 years, it has never come.

Considering the squad is made up of so many Liverpool and Tottenham players, maybe they should consider playing closer to the style? 

I'm not saying for four or six years time, the next tournament is two years away and I'm not convinced that Mark Noble will be fighting for a place in that time. What's the point of including him in squads? The England squad should be as consistent as possible. I do think it's important that Noble have more experience with the set-up, the same as moving to a new club, he will need time to adjust.

When the alternative is Jordan Henderson I have no issue with giving Mark Noble a chance at the age of 29.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:When the alternative is Jordan Henderson I have no issue with giving Mark Noble a chance at the age of 29.

Whilst he isn't brilliant he's a much better player than noble, who is a good club man but really a championship level player.

He just clearly isn't. Your view of players outside the big clubs is so skewed.

Crimey - as a collective they can't. There are differences to the styles anyway, but England just need to play in the way that can win them the most matches. They need to not be scared of players who will scrap, have physical attributes and wouldn't fit in for Spain/Germany/France or whoever is the it-team of the period. We are always at least two years behind.

Nolito and Aduriz are two players from a better country that don't care for age, they care for ability. To assume a player might drop off because they are 30 is of this bizarre school of thought that age is important.

Not as skewed as you are about West Ham players.

Noble is just average, he's done well to make it as a premiership footballer.

Ent wrote:Not as skewed as you are about West Ham players.

Noble is just average, he's done well to make it as a premiership footballer.

Unsurprisingly I think they are overlooked, but then again I watch them. I'm not really sure you do. I think there is a case that many more "average" players should have made England squads in the last ten years, and that the elitist bull of the Premier League is as much to blame for the international squad's failure as anything else. Its part of the arrogance that holds a middling country back.

James Milner is a case in point, were it not for playing for Man City and Liverpool I don't think he'd have got anywhere near the England squad.

Milner got his debut when playing for villa.

There's a reason players play for better teams, they are generally better.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Ent wrote:Not as skewed as you are about West Ham players.

Noble is just average, he's done well to make it as a premiership footballer.

Unsurprisingly I think they are overlooked, but then again I watch them. I'm not really sure you do. I think there is a case that many more "average" players should have made England squads in the last ten years, and that the elitist bull of the Premier League is as much to blame for the international squad's failure as anything else. Its part of the arrogance that holds a middling country back.

Which average players should have made squads regularly and when?

It's a bizarre attitude, I'd prefer United players weren't playing international football.

Its about rewarding performance and accepting that actually playing for a better club doesn't mean you are a better player. There are very, very few English players playing for the bigger sides who would look out of place at a lot of other clubs in the Premier League. Are there any sides where the best player at a club is even English?

Over the years you would look at the likes of Cahill, Henderson, Milner, Young, Walcott, Oxlade, Wilshere and more I cannot remember who were not playing better than others who seemed to keep their place on a memory of ability or what they could be were they playing their best. I agree that you cannot just throw players in and out constantly, but you have to take a look at players. You'll never know. Over the years there have been many who have been on form and could have earned a call up. But the status quo always remained.

The better sides are better because of magic, it's because they have better players.

Walcott, chamberlain, wilshere all in and out of squads. Milner got picked when he was at villa, as did young. Young has 30 caps over 9 years and only made it to one tournament.

I think this is all in your head, there is nobody tearing it up for a lower placed side who's been kept out of the national side, the likes of carrick and young have a handful of caps over a career despite playing for a top side winning things.

Ent wrote:The better sides are better because of magic, it's because they have better players.

Walcott, chamberlain, wilshere all in and out of squads. Milner got picked when he was at villa, as did young. Young has 30 caps over 9 years and only made it to one tournament.

I think this is all in your head, there is nobody tearing it up for a lower placed side who's been kept out of the national side, the likes of carrick and young have a handful of caps over a career despite playing for a top side winning things.

It just seems to be in millions of heads then.

You are again missing the point though. Im not saying they dont have better players, but none of the English players are really those star players that make that so. If Ibra, Ozil, Mane, De Gea, Costa, Coutinho, Eriksson, Vertonghen etc were English I'd never argue that big club bias existed. But I don't think squads for England have been picked purely on merit for a good while. Even with Milner - got picked at Villa, stayed in England squads on benches everywhere else.

Again in your head, Milner started 29 times for city the year before he joined Liverpool. Plus he was the squads utility man.

There is a lack of top English players but when they were about they were at the better teams.

Tottenham are hardly a traditional big side but they have what 5 in the squad? 4 in the starting line up?

If anything it's too easy to get caps nowadays, anyone who has a few decent games is proposed as an international and half of them are capped.

I dont think Milner has justified his place in an England squad for a long time. I like him, but he got constantly picked without being great and it probably helped his career stagnate

England's 25-man squad to face Scotland and Spain:

Forster (Southampton), Hart (Torino), Heaton (Burnley)

Bertrand (Southampton), Cahill (Chelsea), Clyne (Liverpool), Jagielka (Everton), Keane (Burnley), Rose (Tottenham), Stones (Man City), Walker (Tottenham)

Dier (Tottenham), Drinkwater (Leicester), Henderson (Liverpool), Wilshere (Bournemouth), Lallana (Liverpool), Lingard (Man Utd), Rooney (Man Utd), Sterling (Man City), Townsend (Crystal Palace); Walcott (Arsenal)

Kane (Tottenham), Rashford (Man Utd), Sturridge (Liverpool), Vardy (Leicester)

Drinkwater

How can you face-palm Drinkwater when Jagielka, Kane and Lingard make it? I'm happy Antonio was dropped, his form has been poor, but Townsend and Lingard getting in is pathetic. Kane is not fit and not worth having, Austin and Redmond have been mugged.

He won't play Dier at centre back, so I'd imagine it's Stones and Cahill.

Walcott and Sterling should play, both having good seasons. Lallana has to play too. None of the strikers are on form, so if he has to play Rooney then play him up front and get him out of the way a bit.

Hearing Cresswell is to be a late callup to the England squad

Im now a Southgate fanboy

Drinkwater and Forster out, Cresswell and Pickford in

Seems an odd call up because Bertrand and Rose are already part of the squad. Guess it shows the lack of options in central midfield for England.

Must of lost Shelvey's no.

Given how comfortable Chelsea have looked in the 3-4-3 formation, with it giving them added solidity at the back while still allowing them to create plenty going forward, I was toying with the idea that England could adopt something similar.

Pros:
- extra cover at the back
- allows the wing-backs more freedom to roam forward, which is where there strength lies
- said roaming means our wide attacking players can drift inside without losing too much width, something our wide players are quite fond of doing

Cons:
- probably means you have to pick Jagielka as one of the three CBs. Ah, there goes that idea then

More serioursly, something like:
Hart
Stones Cahill Jagielka(??)
Clyne Dier Henderson Rose
Lallana Kane Sterling

Could it work? Am I completely crazy?

Just John wrote:Must of lost Shelvey's no.

I expect he doesn't want it tbh as Jonjo has found his suited level...Anonymous in the PL, Stand out in the Championship.

Fernando wrote:

Just John wrote:Must of lost Shelvey's no.

I expect he doesn't want it tbh as Jonjo has found his suited level...Anonymous in the PL, Stand out in the Championship.

Anonymous

He was selected for England only last year & has six caps. He's heading for the Championship player of the year this year & will only improve under Benitez. He'll come again.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Given how comfortable Chelsea have looked in the 3-4-3 formation, with it giving them added solidity at the back while still allowing them to create plenty going forward, I was toying with the idea that England could adopt something similar.

Pros:
- extra cover at the back
- allows the wing-backs more freedom to roam forward, which is where there strength lies
- said roaming means our wide attacking players can drift inside without losing too much width, something our wide players are quite fond of doing

Cons:
- probably means you have to pick Jagielka as one of the three CBs. Ah, there goes that idea then

More serioursly, something like:
Hart
Stones Cahill Jagielka(??)
Clyne Dier Henderson Rose
Lallana Kane Sterling

Could it work? Am I completely crazy?

Main problem is it's a system which requires day to day training I feel, as most the players are suited to a back four which makes it difficult to implement at international level. 

I'd also say that I'm not sure it'd work with the players you've selected. Clyne is probably not attacking enough to play as an attacking wing back, his strength is in defending really. I'm not sure Dier would work there either as he's not creative enough. You could play him instead of Jagielka, Lallana next to Henderson and Walcott/Rashford up with Kane and Sterling.

Southgate leaves out Smalling & Shaw from the squad because according to him they are clearly injured.  He also supports them against the accusation Mourinho had of them.   What is wrong with Mourinho?  He lost his job at Chelsea because for some reason he lost the dressing room.  Now he seems to be agitating again - maybe he wants to be sacked?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37904361

I agree with what Jose said, think it was actually more praise of players than criticism of others.

Nobes is ahead of Shelvey, and neither will likely play for England from here on out. Shelvey doesn't have the movement or defensive intelligence to fit any role England need

Shelvey is over-qualified for England, he can actually pass a ball. Just stated he should of been mentioned, that is all. Similar to Austin, who has more goals than Sturridge, Rooney, Vardy & Kane put together this season. Still all about big team bias, unfortunately.

Except it seems now that both Shaw and Smalling are actually injured, rather than them feeling like they are unable to play. What can possibly be gained by criticising injured players? The best he can hope for is that in the future players force themselves to play through injury causing further harm and leading them to be out of action for longer.

think mourinho is losing it, his ego is catching up with him and he cant handle it when things dont go his way. as a united fan hope im wrong but i cant see what he's trying with us at the moment. fergie even at his outrageous best you could still understand what he was trying to achieve

I'd imagine he took the advice of his medical team, and then was concerned by players who were passed fit to play saying they did not feel 100% so didnt want to play. I doubt footballers feel 100% often, so he is criticising their mentality, and some would say the mentality of Man United players has suffered for years

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'd imagine he took the advice of his medical team, and then was concerned by players who were passed fit to play saying they did not feel 100% so didnt want to play. I doubt footballers feel 100% often, so he is criticising their mentality, and some would say the mentality of Man United players has suffered for years

The medical team have confirmed with the FA and Gareth Southgate that they both have legitimate medical problems though? https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/07/england-gareth-southgate-luke-shaw-jose-mourinho-manchester-united

So, now we can trust clubs withdrawing players?

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So, now we can trust clubs withdrawing players?

I don't know what we can trust, but I do think it's a dangerous game Mourinho is playing. This isn't his Chelsea or Inter Milan sides who loved him, he's got to build up trust with these players and this is now the second time Mourinho has publicly chastised Luke Shaw. Who is a young player coming back from a horrific injury.

Crimey wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So, now we can trust clubs withdrawing players?

I don't know what we can trust, but I do think it's a dangerous game Mourinho is playing. This isn't his Chelsea or Inter Milan sides who loved him, he's got to build up trust with these players and this is now the second time Mourinho has publicly chastised Luke Shaw. Who is a young player coming back from a horrific injury.

His injury was a bad one, but before the injury he was unfit, LVG dropped him cos he wasnt fit enough, looks overweight, he reportedly leaked issues in the dressing room, and just doesnt seem to want it. There is always something hanging over him, he is one hell of a player, but he is just wasting it for himself. Wont be long til he is shipped off somewhere else, and as much as i would miss him, he shouldnt be surprised.

Think its slightly harsh on Smalling, he is not renowned for being injury prone, but i think when you can see the defence is down to its bare bones, you need to man up a bit and play on.