European Rugby..

What a disappointment... I thought with BT and Sky sharing coverage of the European Rugby we'd have more coverage of the games. However, Round 1 of the Challenge Cup and only 2 are being shown on the TV, and one of them is by the French broadcaster only.

I appreciate that its big money, and that BT and Sky have put up a lot of money to cover European Rugby, but if you have games you don't want to or cant fit in your schedule, then why not let other broadcasters show them like BBC, ITV, S4C or even b!oody DAVE. Or better still, if they want to keep control put them out on your Web Sites.. But not showing any coverage at all is just damn annoying...

If this is the way they think they are investing in Rugby then they need to think again...

Get a ticket and go to the games you can get to then.
I agree that I would love complete coverage - at least for all the home nations games.

propdavid_london wrote:Get a ticket and go to the games you can get to then.  
I agree that I would love complete coverage - at least for all the home nations games.  

Clever response... Not everyone can drop everything and get to the games.. Some people actually have to work, which means they cant get to the game for 7pm on a Friday. Some work weekends. Some have families so cant just drop everything and go out to a game... In the same way you'll probably think my response is a little abrupt, I ask you to consider that not everyone, no matter how much they'd love to, are able to attend the games, before you post such a flippant response.

And my point is, and I'll say it again, I don't think covering just ONE game in the first round (who knows how many will be covered in following round, not many I bet).. represents an investment in rugby.

I'm not sure if BT have any of the smaller European Cup coverage rights. Only the main event. I think Sky have a monopoly on the old Amlin competition. Be nice of the beeb had some of that though.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm not sure if BT have any of the smaller European Cup coverage rights. Only the main event. I think Sky have a monopoly on the old Amlin competition. Be nice of the beeb had some of that though.

Its actually shared. They covered some games last year, and covering Edinburgh v Quins next week. But they only seem to be interested in the Quins. I actually think its really poor and the powers who gave them the rights to cover should be challenging them on it. Either cover the games or release the rights to specific games.

I work every other weekend but manage to get to Friday night games now the KO times have changed and usually can't be bothered to attend on a Saturday, it depends. I miss the Heineken cup days on sky sports where I was pretty much able to record every single game bar the ones on the red button - then I could view at my own leisure.

Just checked and cant see one of the Welsh regions covered (Challenge Cup - that is).. Surely, if they don't want to cover them, Scrum V or S4C would have done one or more of them.. Just beggars belief...

They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Thing is though how are attendances meant to grow if fans would rather watch from their own home than make the journey to the stadium. It' only takes 40 mins to get to the liberty from Bridgend and season tickets are cheaper than any other sport I know of

The whole competition is a farce, especially the second tier. We have been led down the garden path on this one, European club ruby is dying on it's feet at the moment.

The whole competition has been ruined by greedy money men.

True Raven wrote:Thing is though how are attendances meant to grow if fans would rather watch from their own home than make the journey to the stadium.  It' only takes 40 mins to get to the liberty from Bridgend and season tickets are cheaper than any other sport I know of

I know a lot of people from Bridgend may think this, but Bridgend is NOT the centre of the universe.. It takes far longer to get there (or other stadiums) from other parts of South Wales, and for tonight's game, Newcastle (and surrounding areas).

Also, as I have said, the reasons for not attending games could be vast..

* Affordability - Not everyone can afford to attend games, cost of ticket (x tickets for family), cost of travel, cost of any food/drink (coffee, coke - not necessarily beer, before someone picks up on that), etc.
* Time - Not everyone can afford the time to attend games, family commitment, work, simply the time it takes to get there.

... and I'm sure there will be so many more factors. So can we get away from its a good thing as attendances will be boosted. This is a myth. Yes, you'll get a few more, who like locally and have the spare cash and time, but not everyone can. So, what do you do, make it "elitist", ie. you can only follow if you can get to the game, or should we try to look beyond this for the games development, ie. show the game on the TV where possible, so that kids who cant usually go to a game get to see and want to play it. And I know pay to view isn't accessible to all, but that's another debate.. My gripe hear is I pay for Sky and BT sports, and they aren't showing the coverage of the European Rugby that they bid for.

Did they really bid all that money NOT to show the games...

LordDowlais wrote:The whole competition is a farce, especially the second tier. We have been led down the garden path on this one, European club ruby is dying on it's feet at the moment.

The whole competition has been ruined by greedy money men.

Forced to agree.. if they aren't going to cover it, then I cant see how it will develop and survive.

The money will help.

I have no problem with which games are covered.


I just find that with the split coverage it losses a bit of its excitement, not sure why this is but the old hype just doesn't feel like it's still there. All just feels a little ad hoc now.

No9 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Thing is though how are attendances meant to grow if fans would rather watch from their own home than make the journey to the stadium.  It' only takes 40 mins to get to the liberty from Bridgend and season tickets are cheaper than any other sport I know of

I know a lot of people from Bridgend may think this, but Bridgend is NOT the centre of the universe.. It takes far longer to get there (or other stadiums) from other parts of South Wales, and for tonight's game, Newcastle (and surrounding areas).

Also, as I have said, the reasons for not attending games could be vast..

* Affordability - Not everyone can afford to attend games, cost of ticket (x tickets for family), cost of travel, cost of any food/drink (coffee, coke - not necessarily beer, before someone picks up on that), etc.
* Time - Not everyone can afford the time to attend games, family commitment, work, simply the time it takes to get there.

... and I'm sure there will be so many more factors. So can we get away from its a good thing as attendances will be boosted. This is a myth. Yes, you'll get a few more, who like locally and have the spare cash and time, but not everyone can. So, what do you do, make it "elitist", ie. you can only follow if you can get to the game, or should we try to look beyond this for the games development, ie. show the game on the TV where possible, so that kids who cant usually go to a game get to see and want to play it. And I know pay to view isn't accessible to all, but that's another debate.. My gripe hear is I pay for Sky and BT sports, and they aren't showing the coverage of the European Rugby that they bid for.

Did they really bid all that money NOT to show the games...

My point being that the stadiums of all four teams are on the m4 so wherever you live in South Wales it's not far to get to one of them.

Also if you're going to moan about money maybe you should stop wasting £60 a month or whatever you spend on BT and Sky Sports and then you'll have the money to watch a game of rugby livewhich you say you can't afford to watch

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Are Sky/BT bidding and spending money to not show games then? Have they bought the rights not to show any Welsh team games tonight, for example? If so, what a waste of money! If they've not paid for the right to not broadcast them then they should be open to other broadcasters, should someone have the appetite to film and televise it.

Sorry, just read the end of No.9's post. Saying the same thing.

O M G!!

The Heineken European Champions Challenge Cup  is the best thing ever.  The PRO12 teams were absolutely right to hold out for this format and let the English teams get more money and buy more foreign players like Matt Toomua.   Did you see his face after that SH Umaga tackle?  Totes awky mo-mo - as my grandfather used to say

You have to SEE the Glasgow game tonight against the 20 times Premiership champions Leicester!!!  They were absolutely Poopied on by 90 million tries to nil.  And the Tiggers should have had 4 players red carded as well but the french ref was too soft.

I can see 8 PRO12 teams in the knockout stages at this rate and probably Treviso too if they win the challenge cup as well.

I don't know what English fans have been whinging about - this is the best competition ever!!!

Been drinking since lunch pot?

He seems happy bless him.

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Are Sky/BT bidding and spending money to not show games then? Have they bought the rights not to show any Welsh team games tonight, for example?  If so, what a waste of money!  If they've not paid for the right to not broadcast them then they should be open to other broadcasters, should someone have the appetite to film and televise it.

Money is important but what are tv companies going to do? Matches on tv yesterday and today filled up tomorrow. Plenty on to watch. Some great games to look forward to!

Three seasons in now, still we have not got what was promised. Second tier is still a joke, where are all these multiple sponsors ?

We have been lied to. No if's or but's about it, half empty stadiums for the semi finals and finals. A far inferior competition than it was when it was union controlled, the whole thing is a farce.

Why is the comp inferior? I assume you mean 2nd tier?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is the comp inferior? I assume you mean 2nd tier?

Nope. I mean the whole damn thing. Both tiers. It is a scratch on the old comp. Also, we were peddled lies, this you cannot deny.

Lord Bluster at it again

After years of me being completely baffled by the missed opportunity for someone to broadcast games abroad, we finally have it in Germany (and Switzerland and Austria). Dazn launched a netflix style sports streaming service a couple of months back. It's got most European football leagues including the EPL, NHL, NFL, NBA, tons of other sports, tennis, handball, MMA, boxing. And much to my joy they have also picked up the Aviva Prem and Champions and Challenge cup

They do their own commentary (German) on AP games but the european games have the BT/Sky English commentary. All in HD. Very happy chap here, gone are my days of dodgy streams! I've been banging on for ages about missed revenue and audience by not making games available in other countries. I suspect Dazn are picking up the rugby for peanuts, but it's all revenue! 10 euros a month for the lot is a steal for the consumer too.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is the comp inferior? I assume you mean 2nd tier?

Nope. I mean the whole damn thing. Both tiers. It is a scratch on the old comp. Also, we were peddled lies, this you cannot deny.

So you're not talking, format, quality or money here just purely the number of sponsors. Doesn't bother me but you're right.

True Raven wrote:

No9 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Thing is though how are attendances meant to grow if fans would rather watch from their own home than make the journey to the stadium.  It' only takes 40 mins to get to the liberty from Bridgend and season tickets are cheaper than any other sport I know of

I know a lot of people from Bridgend may think this, but Bridgend is NOT the centre of the universe.. It takes far longer to get there (or other stadiums) from other parts of South Wales, and for tonight's game, Newcastle (and surrounding areas).

Also, as I have said, the reasons for not attending games could be vast..

* Affordability - Not everyone can afford to attend games, cost of ticket (x tickets for family), cost of travel, cost of any food/drink (coffee, coke - not necessarily beer, before someone picks up on that), etc.
* Time - Not everyone can afford the time to attend games, family commitment, work, simply the time it takes to get there.

... and I'm sure there will be so many more factors. So can we get away from its a good thing as attendances will be boosted. This is a myth. Yes, you'll get a few more, who like locally and have the spare cash and time, but not everyone can. So, what do you do, make it "elitist", ie. you can only follow if you can get to the game, or should we try to look beyond this for the games development, ie. show the game on the TV where possible, so that kids who cant usually go to a game get to see and want to play it. And I know pay to view isn't accessible to all, but that's another debate.. My gripe hear is I pay for Sky and BT sports, and they aren't showing the coverage of the European Rugby that they bid for.

Did they really bid all that money NOT to show the games...

My point being that the stadiums of all four teams are on the m4 so wherever you live in South Wales it's not far to get to one of them.

Also if you're going to moan about money maybe you should stop wasting £60 a month or whatever you spend on BT and Sky Sports and then you'll have the money to watch a game of rugby livewhich you say you can't afford to watch

Don't assume you know what I can and cannot afford... You haven't a clue and would probably surprise you. And I never said I cant afford to watch live games, you came to that conclusion all by yourself.

The point is, many in Wales (NOTICE WALES NOT SOUTH WALES) cant get to the stadiums without taking time off work, or spending money they cant really afford. Also, just because the WELSH stadiums are along the M4 corridor, it doesn't necessarily make them easy to get to. Try doing it from the valleys or better still north of the Heads of the Valleys on public transport and back again in the evening. It cant be done.

The fact remains. BT and Sky bid and where awarded this to promote and show European rugby, by only televising ONE game in round 1 (and as I say only 2 in round 2, then back to 1 for Round 3..), this is NOT promoting the game. Especially when the games where on yesterday evening, Sky sports showed the SAME football game (Cardiff v Bristol) on 2 of their channels at the same time (Sky Sp1 and Sky Sp Mx), on other channels they showed repeats of sports programmes not even the sporting events. I cannot see how this is good use of their contracts...

Not just that, I would say that its in breach of the agreement they signed up to, as they are not covering the number of games they "promised" during negotiations, if we take the statements reported in the press during these negotiations as correct. Such as, "more access to rugby games" and "more live games shown" and other buzz phrases thrown around at the time.. They where false promises.

But those making the decisions to award to BT and Sky, I'm sure will be happy with what they got out of it...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Are Sky/BT bidding and spending money to not show games then? Have they bought the rights not to show any Welsh team games tonight, for example?  If so, what a waste of money!  If they've not paid for the right to not broadcast them then they should be open to other broadcasters, should someone have the appetite to film and televise it.

Money is important but what are tv companies going to do? Matches on tv yesterday and today filled up tomorrow. Plenty on to watch. Some great games to look forward to!

I think you missed my point. I simply meant that none of the Welsh 2nd tier games were televised by sky or bt. Suggesting they didn't want or need or have the demand (tv wise) to televise them. I'm merely suggesting that it would be good to allow terrestrial tv to show those games if sky/bt have no intention of showing them at all. If they've bid to have the rights to ALL games and choose to show only a few (much less than in previous years) then that's a bit petty, IMO.

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Are Sky/BT bidding and spending money to not show games then? Have they bought the rights not to show any Welsh team games tonight, for example?  If so, what a waste of money!  If they've not paid for the right to not broadcast them then they should be open to other broadcasters, should someone have the appetite to film and televise it.

Money is important but what are tv companies going to do? Matches on tv yesterday and today filled up tomorrow. Plenty on to watch. Some great games to look forward to!

I think you missed my point. I simply meant that none of the Welsh 2nd tier games were televised by sky or bt. Suggesting they didn't want or need or have the demand (tv wise) to televise them. I'm merely suggesting that it would be good to allow terrestrial tv to show those games if sky/but have no intention of showing them at all. If they've bid to have the rights to ALL games and choose to show only a few (much less than in previous years) then that's a bit petty, IMO.

Spot on...

Not sure if they are even showing highlights on S4C as they have done in previous years.. If we have to rely on the Sky and BT highlight show, then not going to get to see much are we..

I am biased, being Welsh, but I cant understand why they only showed 1 games in the Challenge cup, and next week they are only showing 2 games. It doesn't make sense at all. Funny, both are with English clubs. Don't think they plan to show any Welsh club, looking at the ratings unless of course they progress to the latter stages when I'm sure they'll give it some air time (or perhaps not).

To me, buying the rights and then deciding not to show it, is just selfish and churlish...

What profit making company pays for an item and then gives it away for free?

If they allowed Welsh games to be shown on other channels such as s4c then where is the incentive for Welsh viewers to pay for the subscription?

BT have to appease their shareholders by generally making profit not satisfy a few Welsh viewers by allowing s4c or scrum v to see a product which they paid for

True Raven wrote:What profit making company pays for an item and then gives it away for free?

If they allowed Welsh games to be shown on other channels such as s4c then where is the incentive for Welsh viewers to pay for the subscription?  

BT have to appease their shareholders by generally making profit not satisfy a few Welsh viewers by allowing s4c or scrum v to see a product which they paid for

Who said anything about giving it away for free? I'm confident that s4c or bbc2 Wales would pay something to air some Welsh games. They could sub contract. But for sky and bt to bid all that money and then show only a few games seems a bit daft. It's like buying up all the train companies and then only running a Birmingham to London service.

On your point about Welsh viewers buying a subscription. They're not showing the Welsh games so no one would bother. That's the f*inf point! If they showed some (Welsh games) then Welsh people might buy a subscription!

Because of viewing figures, it's a business they're trying to run. Bath vs Cardiff is televised as they know they will get viewing figures to worth showing it.

If BBC have offered to pay for showing the Welsh games that are not televised and BT said no then you'd have a point

Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Might be advantageous for the game if there were one or two games on terrestrial. Like the footy does. At present Euro club rugby is effectively invisible to millions who don't subscribe to pay to view. Sure to be some would-be fans in that lot I reckon.

Also, if it's a business they're trying to run then it makes no sense stock piling all of the games and showing a small handful. Money earned from not televising Dragons v Brive = £0. Money from not showing Ospreys = £0. That doesn't look like good business to me. Selling them on would be better business.

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'd need to bid and spend some more money then.

Are Sky/BT bidding and spending money to not show games then? Have they bought the rights not to show any Welsh team games tonight, for example?  If so, what a waste of money!  If they've not paid for the right to not broadcast them then they should be open to other broadcasters, should someone have the appetite to film and televise it.

Money is important but what are tv companies going to do? Matches on tv yesterday and today filled up tomorrow. Plenty on to watch. Some great games to look forward to!

I think you missed my point. I simply meant that none of the Welsh 2nd tier games were televised by sky or bt. Suggesting they didn't want or need or have the demand (tv wise) to televise them. I'm merely suggesting that it would be good to allow terrestrial tv to show those games if sky/bt have no intention of showing them at all. If they've bid to have the rights to ALL games and choose to show only a few (much less than in previous years) then that's a bit petty, IMO.

Yeah sorry think I did, once the rights are won thats that. It comes back to the argument of money vs coverage which impacts the majority of discussions on the pro 12 threads. Personally I got into the sports I like through free tv and watching internationals so I know placinhg matches on pay tv is divisive but I can''t see a way round.

Griff wrote:Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Seems to me that they've spent some of their rugby cash on a massive ChumV touch screen tv, another mate for Ponty Charlo (extra gags) and a woman at pitchside to annoy players at half time.

Anyone else remember the days when the British Lions, Wales rugby tours, Wales footy qualifiers, Formula 1, Ryder Cup, etc., were all shown on ordinary telly without the hoards of overpaid folk gabbing on about the bleeding obvious before, during and after?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Seems to me that they've spent some of their rugby cash on a massive ChumV touch screen tv, another mate for Ponty Charlo (extra gags) and a woman at pitchside to annoy players at half time.

Also, I hear Phil Steele is paid each time he uses the 'enjoy your half time orange' line which must now be running into the thousands!

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Seems to me that they've spent some of their rugby cash on a massive ChumV touch screen tv, another mate for Ponty Charlo (extra gags) and a woman at pitchside to annoy players at half time.

Also, I hear Phil Steele is paid each time he uses the 'enjoy your half time orange' line which must now be running into the thousands!

Good one.
Off topic, but i'm sure it was Steele who once told Bob Norster to go back and count the receipts. We were playing at Freebiesville then. How I laughed (cried).

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Seems to me that they've spent some of their rugby cash on a massive ChumV touch screen tv, another mate for Ponty Charlo (extra gags) and a woman at pitchside to annoy players at half time.

Also, I hear Phil Steele is paid each time he uses the 'enjoy your half time orange' line which must now be running into the thousands!

Good one.
Off topic, but i'm sure it was Steele who once told Bob Norster to go back and count the receipts. We were playing at Freebiesville then. How I laughed (cried).

My mate was in the RAF and had a stint as a recruiter for a few years. It involved a lot of corporate stuff, sponsorship, etc. and they were sponsoring the Blues at the time (probably still are?) when you were in the Cardiff City Stadium. He gave us Dragons fans a few free tickets for a New Year's Day game (I.e. one of the busier fixtures) but had another 40 free ones in his pocket! Stood outside waving them around like a lemon. Literally couldn't give them away!

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Are they allowing them (BBC/s4c) to bid to sub contract though? Do you know that? I don't know either way.

Seems to me that they've spent some of their rugby cash on a massive ChumV touch screen tv, another mate for Ponty Charlo (extra gags) and a woman at pitchside to annoy players at half time.

Also, I hear Phil Steele is paid each time he uses the 'enjoy your half time orange' line which must now be running into the thousands!

Good one.
Off topic, but i'm sure it was Steele who once told Bob Norster to go back and count the receipts. We were playing at Freebiesville then. How I laughed (cried).

My mate was in the RAF and had a stint as a recruiter for a few years. It involved a lot of corporate stuff, sponsorship, etc. and they were sponsoring the Blues at the time (probably still are?) when you were in the Cardiff City Stadium. He gave us Dragons fans a few free tickets for a New Year's Day game (I.e. one of the busier fixtures) but had another 40 free ones in his pocket! Stood outside waving them around like a lemon. Literally couldn't give them away!

May have met him. Spotted someone frantically giving away tickets at one game outside CCS. Posh ones too. Very posh. Said we already had bog standard freebies, but he offered to swap so we did. Watched the game sat down all warm and cozy. Much prefer standing up and freezing though.
Was sent a Drags freebie voucher in the post too. Had to queue up to exchange it for a ticket which was a bit mad imo. There we are. CCS was total madness.

Yeah, wasn't a great move. I don't blame them for at least exploring the idea but perhaps a feasibility study (aka a bog standard questionnaire with existing fans) might have saves the painful move there and subsequent return. I remember the New Year's Day freebie game there and feeling like we needed to whisper so as not to disturb the fans around us. Very odd atmosphere!

Have all the games in the challenge cup been shown in previous seasons?

I think they've only ever covered a small number of them.  That's what the rights are sold are for - a certain number of matches in each comp.  They've sold rights to other matches to other broadcasters e.g. France, Italy, etc.  

It would be entirely possible for EPCR to sell the rights to some of the matches to terrestrial/FTA broadcasters.   And they've said very recently that is what they plan to do in the next TV deal that is coming up next year for bidding/award.

Pot, the old sky coverage for the European cup format of Heineken cup/whatever the second cup was called used to have a large amount of the 2nd tier games on the red button. It's my understanding that now this is not the case.

Griff wrote:Pot, the old sky coverage for the European cup format of Heineken cup/whatever the second cup was called used to have a large amount of the 2nd tier games on the red button. It's my understanding that now this is not the case.

And why is this only coming up now as an issue in the third year of the new format?   Were all the Dragon, Connacht, Edinburgh games shown last season, or the season before?  Or is it only this season that it seems to have happened?   

I genuinely don't know but am curious as to why it's only come up now.

Oh it's been an expressed issue now for I think all three years, Pot. There have been seasonal grumbles about TV coverage for the Challenge Cup since the beginning of this new admin European event.

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Pot, the old sky coverage for the European cup format of Heineken cup/whatever the second cup was called used to have a large amount of the 2nd tier games on the red button. It's my understanding that now this is not the case.

And why is this only coming up now as an issue in the third year of the new format?   Were all the Dragon, Connacht, Edinburgh games shown last season, or the season before?  Or is it only this season that it seems to have happened?   

I genuinely don't know but am curious as to why it's only come up now.

The reduction in coverage was a surprise to me. Wasn't this way last season. wtf for?

Griff wrote:Yeah, wasn't a great move. I don't blame them for at least exploring the idea but perhaps a feasibility study (aka a bog standard questionnaire with existing fans) might have saves the painful move there and subsequent return. I remember the New Year's Day freebie game there and feeling like we needed to whisper so as not to disturb the fans around us. Very odd atmosphere!

One was carried out on CAP, I believe.
A pave paradise and put up yet another block of flats type of thing.