Jennings to be ok for world cup

article in IT says Jennings should have arm in cast for 4 weeks not 8 as previously thought....thus improving his world cup chances


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0602/1224298257711.html

If he doesn't make the warm up games he won't feature. He needs be fighting fit for our double header with France.

Was this really the best way for Gibson to use up 1 of his 3 magic wishes?

Gibbo will be very pleased to see this. At least the injury's not as bad as first feared it seems.

Stag

He should be fully fit by the end of July and we could really use an out and out 7 (or at least have him on the bench) to compete on the floor against Pocock when we play australia....which will be a crucial match in terms of who we play in the quarters (presuming we win our other matches! )

I really think he needs to be fit. With ferris, sob, Wallace and heaslip all "definites" I believe it will come down to McLaughlin vs Ryan AND Leamy vs Jennings

How will Jennings stop Pocock stealing our ball better than Wallace?

I actually disagree with the out and out 7 purely to compete with Pocock. Jennings is great but he isnt in Pococks class as a poacher. The best way to eliminate Pocock is to clear him out; is Jennings strong enough to do this? Im not sure. If one of Ferris, SOB or Heaslip hit him full pelt though there is no way he would maintain his feet.

Im not saying Jennings shouldnt go (his form says he should imo) but i think we are kidding ourselves if he is the answer to Pocock

I just hope he makes it. The problem is - Kidney will only use him when and if Wallace is losing out at the breakdown against Pocock. And anyone we meet in the QF and further on in the RWC - if we make it .

Its an Irish blind-spot. "We" dont believe in balanced backrows during the reigns of EOS and Kidney. One ball carrier too many. Jennings allows O Brien and Heaslip free to do the jobs they do best - while he does his. Did it with Heaslip and Elsom. Now doing it for Heaslip and SOB.

Check the HC Final for proof-positive of this. Check his game vs Munster in the ML Final. Wallace was declared MOTM. He wasn't mine. Check the amount of times Jennings turned them over. Front-five let us down in that one. He did his job so well, even Kidney has to consider him now. And that takes a lot, believe me. Im tired of pointing this out, when it is plain as the nose on Borthwick's face. Tired.

It will be exposed, as it has been, so many times before.

Wallace is a great player. That is not the argument here. He just unbalances our backrow. Ergo, if we actually manage to meet NZ - McCaw will have his usual field-day against us.

At least Jennings could slow him down and give us nanoseconds of time and space at the breakdown. It's crucial at the top-end. Never underestimate the power of the Dark Arts. NZ thrive on them.

What constitutes a balanced backrow?

Why can't we play our own game instead of conforming to what others do?

Anyway, the South African backrow is 2007 was unbalanced, yet that was pretty damn good.

MBTGOG wrote:What constitutes a balanced backrow?

Why can't we play our own game instead of conforming to what others do?

Anyway, the South African backrow is 2007 was unbalanced, yet that was pretty damn good.

It's very simple. 2 x huge, powerful, dynamic, ball-carriers and 1 x out-and-out durty, kiniving, groundhog and link-man to give them the time and space to do their jobs. Wallace does not do this. He get involved in areas he shouldnt, imo. Areas best left to SOB and Heaslip. It makes him, as an individual - look good, but hurts the team as a unit.

And we are not conforming. Leinster have proved it works, time and time again, against the best backrows in the NH. Give it a chance vs the best of the SH.

I dont know why I even argue this. It's a waste of time with Kidney at the helm.

Anyway. Got it off my chest. Again.

Not going to discuss it any further.

Gibson

Would you have issue with a Ferris, Jennings, Heaslip backrow if that came to pass. To my mind the issue now at the breakdown is the clearing out. SH teams hit the ruck at a far greater pace than we do and this is why they are able to get the quick ball. To my mind Ferris,SOB and Heaslip needs to be looked at.

By the way i agree re Jennings last two performances. He was immense

Well, that's certainly one backrow configuration that has worked for many teams, but having an extra ball carrier has worked for many teams as well including Ireland. It just means that the whole pack has to share the responsibility of the traditional openside role. I remember in 2009, we actually won the most turnovers of any side in that years Six Nations with Wallace at 7. It obviously didn't hurt us at that juncture.

I do think Ferris offers us more balance than O'Brien, with his counter-rucking game; another way of exerting pressure on the breakdown. We need him hitting those rucks and clearing men out. I think Kidney and Gert Smal also looks to Rory Best to compete for the ball at the breakdown.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat in rugby.

Yeah but Notch, isn't it better to have a one trick pony at openside?

Anyway, Heaslip does a lot of work on the deck which doesn't get the attention it deserves.

Heaslip definitely deserves more plaudits than he gets MBTGOG. One of my friends tried to argue that we should have a backrow of Ferris, Wallace and SOB for the world cup. Nonsensical. Do ye remember the France games in 07 and 09? In 07 from the restart we throw it all away. In 09 from the restart Heaslip wins us a penalty when they hold on in the tackle, ROG converts and we go on to win the slam. Happy days.

On Jennings, I'm a fan but I don't see us changing the dynamism of our backrow at this juncture. As well as that, he's had numerous opportunities for Ireland in the past and hasn't delivered. Don't get me wrong he should definitely travel and, if Ferris remains injured which unfortunately is a very real possibility, he should be on the bench ahead of Leamy for sure but we have so many players capable of turning over possession without Jennings. Best and DOC were immense at it during the six nations, Wallace, Heaslip, BOD & even D'arcy. I think introducing Jennings at this late stage creates more problems than it solves. He should still definitely travel though.

The England game doesnt hide the fact Ireland need a genuine openside. I think sob, heaslip, ferris and wallace would all have a chance of making any nh country. However when they all play together they rarely get the best out of each other. The only game they played close to their best was against england but I still think an Irish backrow would perform consistently well with jennings. His donkey work would enable the other two to play to their strengths which is ball carrying.

Ball carrying is useless unless it is at soft shoulders. Jamie Roberts was rendered null and void against England because they picked Joe Worsley. If all we have is Heaslip and SOB running hard and straight then we are in serious trouble. Whatever their relative strengths if Ireland 1-15 dont commit to the breakdown with pace and power we will not generate quick ball.

Jennings deserves to be considered on his own merits and performances but i dont for a 2nd think our backrow will become balanced all of a sudden with his inclusion

I have to say I watched the Munster v Leinster game last night and I thought Jennings was the best backrower on the pitch. I know Wallace got MOTM but Jennings was everywhere. If Ireland have any ambition to play attacking Rugby then Jennings has to be selected. The energy and aggression we used against England won't work all the time and we need to be able to vary our game.

Wallace still is a superb athlete and ball carrier but for me Jennings is a better no7 right now.

I hope Jennings arm will be fully recovered for the RWC. Then he can hold the tacklebag with both arms.

There is no chance of him bolting into the RWC side. I'd love to see it but honestly cannot see it happening. Jennings will perform the same role as Quinlan did in the last RWC.

I think that Jennings will get game time as Kidney will feel he needs to spell Wallace. But he won't start unless there are at least two injuries in the backrow.

'But he won't start unless there are at least two injuries in the backrow."

Yeah, shame that. But, we cant change the coach now.

Jennings WAS the best player on the pitch vs Munster and will travel. Or should at least.

He is a better 7 than Wallace and we dont need 3 ball carriers.

Sorry, but Wallay warming the bench for me.

Oh and whoever suggests Ferris ahead of SOB at 6 can leave the room now.

Thank you.

I agree with the point made by Gibson re: balance. Sometimes the best back row doesn't necessarily comprise the best available players in each position. The Scotland back row of Brown, Barclay and Beattie is certainly better than the sum of its individual parts.

fEs,

To be fair though, you don't have any other different style openside flanker as an option.

Boyne,

It's not that crazy a suggestion especially considering Ferris was probably the best players this Autumn.

One of the best players on the Irish team in Autumn vs Europes best player..

Hmmmmmm......

I love Ferris, but hes not in the same form as SOB. Hopefully he'll get back from injury and push SOB hard, but theres no question of who has the 6 jersey at the moment.

O'Brien does have the 6 jersey but it's not a massive stretch of the imagination to say that Ferris could win it back.

How good would Ferris have been if he was in the Leinster team this year?

Ferris certainly offers things O'Brien doesn't in terms of counter-rucking and would be a smart selection but it's important he proves his form and fitness.

The back row pretty much picks itself at this stage

SOB, Wallce, Heaslip. Anything else is just tinkering.

Jennings is a not as good a player as Wallace, b injured c never played well for Ireland d rightly or wrongly Kevin McLaughlin was considered ahead of him for the biggest game of the year to date.

Donnacha Ryan has nailed down the second row / back row spot ahead of McLaughlin with a great 3 months for Munster (actually great season).

I actually do think there are some key differences between Barclay and Rennie. Rennie doesn't offer you the same ball carrying as we get from Barclay, nor the same level of ball handling skills (Barclay has become a key option for the long throw to the tail). Rennie is more a pure 7, with a low centre of gravity and far more dedicated to winning ball - in short I'd say Rennie would probably be our number one poacher. However, because we have both Strokosch and Brown at 6, both players who have played 7 before and both ball winners in their own right, the better balance is to have a more rounded player at 7 - Barclay.

If we were to switch to a more powerful one-dimensional 6, someone like Jason White used to be or perhaps Hines, then I'd actually consider using Rennie rather than Barclay.

The distinctions between Rennie and Barclay are not as stark as between say SOB, Wallace and Jennings, but in terms of balance, I still think we have decisions to make.

Ok back in the room...
With few exceptions, this is a very reasoned discussion. Im glad it hasnt just turned blatanly into inter-provincial bickering.

Points have been well made - even if we dont agree with each other. I honestly dont want Jennings there because he is Leinster player. If he was from Munster or Ulster, Id still scream for it, for the reasons I gave 2 years ago and still do now..

Stand,
Id have a fully-fit 1F, at 6 - anyday. He is custom-made to take on the NZ and Saffer bullies. But not SOB at 7. He is wasted there, imo. Its been proven far too many times. NOT a 7.

A question Id like to put to ye learned posters - is this. As Wally is 34 now, who is Ireland's next up-and-coming 7? Forget Jennings & SOB in this discusion, if you can.

Im throwing a fast improving Dom Ryan in there, to start things off. I think he will eventually be groomed to replace Jenno at Leinster. Im sure Ulster, Munster and Connacht posters can fully justify their choices. Homies or not.

Gibbo,

I think that Dom Ryan is the only one with both hands up shouting to take that spot in the next few years. At the moment, his closest challenge is Willie Faloon.

The two other players I'll throw into the hat are Peter O'Mahoney from Munster and Dominic Gallagher from Ulster, who is now with the U20s.

O'Mahoney does not have the same bone shuddering hits of Ryan but in my opinion is a far better footballer though he might find a home at 6 or 8 still. Gallagher will take longer to come through and hopefully his time down in Trinity away from the Ulster Academy won't play against him as I think he's probably the best of the lot.

As per Munsty, thanks for giving me players to watch out for.And yes, Faloon is well in the hunt at the minute for me.

I'd like to point out, it depends a lot upon which style of rugby the coach we have wants to implement but I wouldn't be too worried at this position.

Gibson wrote:Ok back in the room...
With few exceptions, this is a very reasoned discussion. Im glad it hasnt just turned blatanly into inter-provincial bickering.

Points have been well made - even if we dont agree with each other. I honestly dont want Jennings there because he is Leinster player. If he was from Munster or Ulster, Id still scream for it, for the reasons I gave 2 years ago and still do now..

Stand,
Id have a fully-fit 1F, at 6 - anyday. He is custom-made to take on the NZ and Saffer bullies. But not SOB at 7. He is wasted there, imo. Its been proven far too many times. NOT a 7.

A question Id like to put to ye learned posters - is this. As Wally is 34 now, who is Ireland's next up-and-coming 7? Forget Jennings & SOB in this discusion, if you can.

Im throwing a fast improving Dom Ryan in there, to start things off. I think he will eventually be groomed to replace Jenno at Leinster. Im sure Ulster, Munster and Connacht posters can fully justify their choices. Homies or not.

I don't think Willie Faloon is quite ready yet physically but I think he is a fantastic talent at 7. Ulster have been a far poorer side this year when he hasn't been on the pitch.

I agree regarding Ferris. He has a physicality and skill set at 6 that no one else comes close to, not even SOB. SOB is arguably Irelands best player right now but Ferris is the best 6. I still believe SOB is a 6.5 in the Wallace mode so I don't buy the argument that he can't play 7.

I'm less impressed with Faloon than others, good player though he is.

Notch wrote:I'm less impressed with Faloon than others, good player though he is.

I think he's brilliant Notch. He doesn't do much eye catching stuff but like Jennings he links up play, wins ball on the deck and facilitates the players around him. Ulster played by far their best rugby with Faloon at 7. His form dipped at the end of the season but thats understandable.

Leinster are brilliant at generating quick ball and the main reason is Jennings. Faloon does the same for us and when he's not there things look disjointed.

When it comes to a choice between O'Brien and Ferris I'm neutral. Both are class. Ferris does offer more in counter rucking. O'Brien is the best ball carrier in Europe. Would be happy to see either starting against Australia.

Dominic Ryan will be a brilliant 7 in my opinion. His tackle technique is superb. Anyone else notice he seems to knock on the ball a bit to often though?

Feckless,

That has been my one criticism from when I first saw him at underage. I have always thought that if Ireland had a 7s side, he could improve that aspect greatly with a stint on the circuit.

Agree on the edge 1F has over SOB still. That may change. But Id be happy with either one of them at 6. We lose nowt and gain a lot with both of them.

What do people think of Rhys Ruddock? Kidney likes him and has included him a lot in his squads over the last while. Is this telling? Is he another Dinny Leamy - in his prime?

Due to his physicality and power, I see him as a 6 or an 8.

The jury is still out for me on Ruddock. I think Mclaughlin, yet another blindside (we could sell em to NZ) - is a better rugby player. For Leinster anyway.

Excited about him. Remember one other thing though is that he is 6 years younger than McLaughlin so there is still plenty of room for him to improve.

He is also a natural born leader, which places him very high in my opinion.

Gibbo

At the minute i like the look of Dominic Ryan. I had hoped Ulster could prize one of him or Ruddock from Leinster. On the SOB/Ferris debate i think that SOB is the incumbent and has to be displaced.Ferris has to prove form and fitness, however the best performance from a 6 i saw in europe last season was Ferris v Bath at Ravenhill. It was obscene how good he was and probably the last time he was fully fit. If and it is a big if, he can recapture that then he starts for me.

Jennings should go on his own merits. I honestly cant see the extent to which you believe he would impact Gibbo but i would be open to giving him a shot at the shirt and seeing if he earns it. Credit to Wally anytime its mentioned that he may be on the wane he tends to deliver massive games. I dont know a lot about this Gallagher lad but from report i hope to see him in an Ulster shirt soon. Is he still studying next season?

Next two years Stand.

I think Rhy Ruddock is amazing specimen, and will be an execellent 6/8 however i think he would forge a more sucessful career at either Ulster or Munster due to less competition, as for Dom Ryan post world cup i think should be Irelands 7, super player . Also Jordi Murphy Ireland U-220 back-row looks a great prospect as does Peter O'Mahony, i hope he makes up for his lack of gametime this season durling the world cup, but then again I can't see Leamy or Coughlan travelling to New Zealand.

As for the Ferris /O'brein debate, ferris will need to get fit, tbh i was panacking about this retirement news :S howver wat a great dielema for kideny 2 have. Personally id go Ferris-6 sob-7 heaslip-8 and wallace-19

MBTGOG wrote:Excited about him. Remember one other thing though is that he is 6 years younger than McLaughlin so there is still plenty of room for him to improve.

He is also a natural born leader, which places him very high in my opinion.

6 years younger than Locky? Just checked and he is only 20. A very big baby. WTF will he be like when he grows up? Ok that shifts my perspective somewhat. Lots of time to learn & grow as a player. I know Ruddock has great leadership qualities. It's in his blood. A discussion point for me is - why has he only been given a 1 year IRFU contract? Are both sides keeping their options open? Is the Leinster traffic of blindsiders affecting this decision?

What I mean is... will he be "encouraged" by the IRFU, to switch to Ulster or Munster next year?

2 years of studying for Gallagher? What age would he be coming out then?

"Very big baby" is pretty apt Gibson. Sure only last summer he went from the U20 world cup in Argentina to playing against Australia in Australia for Deccie and the first team. With regard to the contract, I heard he was keeping his options open Gibson. The amount of competition in the backrow in Leinster for a player who, to be fair, would be pretty much nailed on to start in nearly every other magners team is hard. He could definitely move on next year unless someone else does or he nails a place. I love Ruddock and Ryan though. They're ridiculously good prospects. I don't know what the Leinster academy is doing to churn out these boys but hopefully the keep on doing it.

Standulstermen wrote:Gibbo

At the minute i like the look of Dominic Ryan. I had hoped Ulster could prize one of him or Ruddock from Leinster. On the SOB/Ferris debate i think that SOB is the incumbent and has to be displaced.Ferris has to prove form and fitness, however the best performance from a 6 i saw in europe last season was Ferris v Bath at Ravenhill. It was obscene how good he was and probably the last time he was fully fit. If and it is a big if, he can recapture that then he starts for me.

Jennings should go on his own merits. I honestly cant see the extent to which you believe he would impact Gibbo but i would be open to giving him a shot at the shirt and seeing if he earns it. Credit to Wally anytime its mentioned that he may be on the wane he tends to deliver massive games. I dont know a lot about this Gallagher lad but from report i hope to see him in an Ulster shirt soon. Is he still studying next season?

Stand,
I have massive respect for Wally. He is reeling in the years at the very highest level. No discussion necessary on that score. Just like to see Jennings on the bench vs Oz, as a weapon - at least.


What I am liking in these discussions - is the very fact we are capable of having them in the 1st place. Quality replacing quality all over the field. For Ireland? Are ye mad? Think back to the days of EOS. This is just... great lads.

To be fair, Ruddock came from Millfield in England while having some association to the Ospreys Academy.

Stand,

He would be 22. But I'm guessing if Ulster game him a contract, he might move to a part time course.

He may be. It's this conflict in Ireland over how we manage our resources; it comes from how strong the provincial identities are. Ulster have loads of centres but they all want to play for Ulster, Munster have loads of locks in the same boat and Leinster have lots of backrows and centres behind established players.

Munster are likely to import another NIQ centre on top of Mafi, Ulster rely on NIQ players in the back five of the pack like Muller and Wannenburg and are very light on players from 4-8 coming through the system, whilst Leinster have a surplus of players in a number of positions.

I think a lock and a backrow need to move to Ulster from another province, and at least one outside centre should move to Munster- either Eoin O'Malley or Darren Cave. Another back three player following in Felix Jones' footsteps from Leinster to Munster would be good whilst a lock moving from Munster to Leinster wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Ulster in-wilson/ruddock, donnacha ryan
munster-in darren cave, wilson/ruddock
leinster- it kills me to say it do they really need anyone :/

then three more evenly balanced province......would never happen though

Its a good analysis Notch. And one which would suit and strengthen the provinces and subsequently - Irelands' model. The big question was, could we keep them down on the farm, when and if they smelled the riches of France?

I thought we may lose Sexton, Heaslip and a few others - in the contract process. It was a worrying time. But, most have signed up for 2 years or longer.They are committed. That gives the IRFU time and space to actually spread the combined wealth.

Someone really thought about this. Ticket-price scandal apart, I really think we should applaud them for that.

The Irish "Franchises" have an unfair advantage! (c) Portnoy. 8)