Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[navyblueshorts]

First topic message reminder :

Actually Davie, they didn't fit yours (apologies; 'idiocy' is a bit strong). Your earlier comments were all about how he'd actually done something terrible/illegal i.e. told them how to get around 3rd party ownership (he didn't) with the possible implication that he'd been knowingly involved in it (no evidence of this), took £400k for dodgy seminars (he didn't and he said he'd have to clear it with the FA) etc. You wanted him to be a crook from the off.
You also claimed Ben and I said he was 'innocent' - we said no such thing.

You never took S_R's approach re. his position being untenable because he was England manager, the one thing he probably falls foul of. His comments re. Hodgson/Nevile were unfortunate, but this was a private conversation and, actually, big deal. Seriously, the next poor schmuck who takes this on should treat the media as they deserve.

There may well be more to this - we'll see. Until then, the only thing he's 'guilty' of is putting himself in a stupid position cf. the FA's comments re. FIFA etc and forcing the FA to ask him to fall on his sword. S_R's right with this; the FA had little choice really.

[super_realist]

It would be great for football to implode a bit. It's far too big for its boots at present. Being paid 300k a week regardless of how well you play is part of the reason for this. There is no incentive for these morons to play to their best. The TV companies need to adjust their spending.

I also think there is far too much fawning to managers, journalists need to be giving these clowns much more of a grilling.

[MontysMerkin]

But that's capatalism right? You sound like a lentil knitting, communist corbynista....

[super_realist]

Ha ha, I'm all for business, but football is pretty bent through all aspects.

[MontysMerkin]

But business is bent surely? It's about squeezing as much as you can get out of your mark client. I only object to those types of practices when it's a) tax payers money or b) basic needs as identified by Maslow. If it's just luxury type Poopie like holidays or football then tough titty...

[super_realist]

To some degree, but I don't see employees holding businesses to ransom or agents ripping businesses off to the same degree.
I also don't know of any company where the % of turnover is given over to salaries at the ridiculous level of football clubs. That's not a good business model and considering so many of football clubs in Britain are in debt, it goes to show how bad they are at it. They're in the place where should their TV backers decide they aren't getting enough for their money, then most would do a Leeds United.

[MontysMerkin]

Trouble is the footballist is the commodity - simple supply and demand. If you want a thick fat headed wazzock to play for idiot united you have to pay the going rate. Unless you want to add some sort of government control? In which case strap on your nettle sandals, grow a beard and move to a commune. Why should you give a flying Muppet about football but quite happy to see public services (your and my money) getting analy penetrated by big, fat, greasy individuals? Strange.

And if you don't think it happens in other businesses then you ought to look a little deeper (corruption case against rolls royce at the mo, just about any defence contract, the energy sector (esp abroad) etc etc.)

[super_realist]

Of course it's supply and demand, I just think it's a business which constantly risks it's future by being more and more greedy and it could collapse incredibly quickly in a way that it would appear as if RBS was being well run.

You're always the ones with the nettle sandals and a beard Monty.

It's often said that to make millions out of a football club, you have to start with billions. Footballers are a bit like Lawyers, they're the only ones who benefit from such a set-up.

[McLaren]

Super

Has it occurred to you that the likes of Sky, Nike, adidas etc are trying to make money out of football, but for many club owners it is a vanity project or they just care about the share price?

[super_realist]

I'm talking about the clubs Mac as they are directly linked to what Sky do in regards to the game. If they decide they don't want to pay so much (because perhaps people are getting sick of football, as per my original question), football in the Premier League sense really has a problem.

It seems basing your entire business model on Sky maintaining their interest is the risky bit Mac, and quite Leeds United or Rangers like, not that it would bother you as you illegally stream all your Man U matches anyway.

My original question was "are people still interested in football to the same degree?" Many people answered they were not, and if this eventually leads to a reduced demand for it in terms of Sky, can't you see what impact that might have?

[MontysMerkin]

To single footballers out is laughable (because lets face it - it just doesn't matter) considering the state of the world but there you go. Suppose it gives simple folk something to moan about... takes their minds off their butt reaming.

[super_realist]

Monty, we're talking about FOOTBALL in this instance, why is it a surprise that we're only mentioning them? You sound like one of those ninnies who asks "think of how many hospitals we could build with that".

[pedro]

Monty sounds like an angry Trump voter..

[kwinigolfer]

Pat Murphy described Club Owners as a bunch of billionaire autograph hunters, which I thought was spot on. 'Course, more anxious about staying billionaires than the autographs.
Trouble is, the media lap up all the bling and it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Unless it's a bubble and we're in for a football version of the Big Short. (Which might not be a bad thing.)

[Diggers]

Super, the thing is many people on here are not as interested, but that doesn't mean the majority aren't, we are probably a niche demographic. And even with less interest I still have the Sky channels so they don't lose out financially.

[raycastleunited]

Interesting debate. Like many on here, I've gone off football in the past 10 years, mainly due to the moaning, play-acting and idiotic hype. But maybe if I had 3 sons instead of 3 daughters my interests would be different.

Incidentally, a lot of Puligny's points struck a chord with me. Ironically, as the joy has worn off, I think players today are generally more skilful as well as fitter, stronger and faster. An average prem player today would walk into most championship winning teams of the 90s. If you took an average team like West Brom and sent them back in time 25 years they would comfortably beat the Man U team of 1992.

But football thrives on the tribal small mindedness that is becoming more prevalent in Britain (and other countries too?). It's not about the entertainment on the pitch, it's about "passion" (in reality repressed anger) and feeling a part of something bigger than you. And Sky with all their hype feed this mentality and benefit from it, they know what they're doing.

And best player I've seen... Zidane. Just seemed to have so much time on the ball, his brain was miles ahead of everyone else on the pitch. He would be able to rise above the 100mph premiership.

[raycastleunited]

Super, the thing is many people on here are not as interested, but that doesn't mean the majority aren't, we are probably a niche demographic. And even with less interest I still have the Sky channels so they don't lose out financially.

Spot on. Don't think prem attendances are falling, the reverse if anything with many clubs expanding their grounds. Despite astronomical ticket prices. And I'm sure Sky Sports subscriptions aren't down, although Sky probably view football as a bit of a loss leader.

[super_realist]

Super, the thing is many people on here are not as interested, but that doesn't mean the majority aren't, we are probably a niche demographic. And even with less interest I still have the Sky channels so they don't lose out financially.

I'm merely putting forward a question Diggers, demand and demographics change over time.

It's undeniable that the money in the premier league is mostly down to Sky money which in turn is backed up by subscriptions. If people, for whatever reason are losing interest in football, then it will directly affect the money in the Premier League. Hence, they are on a bit of a financial knife-edge and they are duty bound in regards to their self interest to do things which will ensure that interest is maintained. To me at least, and many on here, it doesn't appear they are doing that. Seems short-sighted to me and hopefully it will come back to bite them at some point.

[pedro]

Bubble? I don't think so. You may see the odd club going bankrupt or facing solvency issues, but by and large the demand is strong and keeps growing worldwide. As far as I know the premiership feeds nicely off the growing interest in Asia, which includes both TV rights and merchandise. Yes the money involved is absurd, but as long as you have a well known brand (yes, this includes Liverpool FC super) and a famous product, the demand will remain strong. And this is also why the clubs can keep on pushing huge debts in front of them.

[super_realist]

It wouldn't be a problem Pedro if the salary to income ratio was better managed. Being tied into long contracts and high salaries is the issue. You see it whenever a club runs into relegation issues such as Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Portsmouth, Villa, Charlton etc. Those clubs are (or have been ) in serious trouble. Villa have just reported a loss of 83 million.

I'm not saying the demand will reduce for Premier League matches, it might, it might not. I'm saying that in business terms, clubs running on such lop-sided finances are always precariously placed for small changes in demand.

For example, we keep hearing (wrongly) that the Premier League is the "best" in the world, yet despite this, Premier League clubs completely stink in Europe. Could this lack of success lead to issues long term? Just an observation. What if Asia starts taking more interest in German, Italian or Spanish leagues? We already know Asian "fans" are fickle in those places.

How long will Asian glory hunters keep supporting dross like Liverpool?

[raycastleunited]

Super, if you are basing your football theory on the views of a handful of people on a golf board, you're not getting a rounded picture.

Golf board stereotype = middle aged middle class professional. 0.1% of population?
Football fan stereotype = working class uneducated moron. 50% of population?

Brain washed premier league fans have no interest in Europe, they are oblivious to Bayern v Dortmund when you've got Swansea v Leicester branded as Super Sunday. The intense marketing hype of the premier leage "product" continues to bulldoze everything else, regardless of the quality on the pitch.

[super_realist]

Super, if you are basing your football theory on the views of a handful of people on a golf board, you're not getting a rounded picture.

Golf board stereotype = middle aged middle class professional. 0.1% of population?
Football fan stereotype = working class uneducated moron. 50% of population?

Brain washed premier league fans have no interest in Europe, they are oblivious to Bayern v Dortmund when you've got Swansea v Leicester branded as Super Sunday. The intense marketing hype of the premier leage "product" continues to bulldoze everything else, regardless of the quality on the pitch.

I'm not making any claims Ray, I'm simply posing a question. I'm not saying football is going to eat itself. I'm simply saying it wouldn't take too much for it to happen and if it did, due to the way these clubs are set up, the collapse would be catastrophic as it has been with a number of clubs.

I'm saying that the ASIAN "fans" could turn to Germany or Spain, given that they're often of a glory hunting nature, if certain clubs are doing better and winning the Champions League then why couldn't they ditch their cod-support of Leicester or Man City to teams who actually win the big competitions?

[pedro]

Well ray, in defense of the morons, you can't fawn all leagues in Europe. Even I can't promise I'd watch Bayern-Dortmund or Atletico-Barca over Swansea-Leicester. I wouldn't necessarily say it has something to do with marketing or brain washing, as I have little interest in both Leicester or Swansea. Just as you were probably more interested in the chick next door than in Pamela Anderson.

[MontysMerkin]

I'm simply saying it wouldn't take too much for it to happen and if it did, due to the way these clubs banks are set up, the collapse would be catastrophic as it has been with a number of clubs banks.

I'm sure there's enough suckers to bail em out. You worry too much...

[super_realist]

Sometimes Monty, you come across as more of a handwringer than Mac.

You should resurrect the Tooting People's Front.

[raycastleunited]

I'm not making any claims Ray, I'm simply posing a question. I'm not saying football is going to eat itself. I'm simply saying it wouldn't take too much for it to happen and if it did, due to the way these clubs are set up, the collapse would be catastrophic as it has been with a number of clubs.

I'm saying that the ASIAN "fans" could turn to Germany or Spain, given that they're often of a glory hunting nature, if certain clubs are doing better and winning the Champions League then why couldn't they ditch their cod-support of Leicester or Man City to teams who actually win the big competitions?

I understand what you're saying I just think the clubs would be bailed out and reformed - no catastrophic collapse.

The asian fans may be glory hunters, but the real competition isn't on the pitch, it's all about whether Man U has a better marketing team than Bayern, or more accurately the premier league marketing v bundesliga. I'm sure Leicester's Thai fanbase wil desert them in droves, but they'll probably all switch to Chelsea or another English team.

[beninho]

The Premier League signed a rights deal with China in November for somewhere between $600/$700 hundred million dollers until 2021. The Premier league has about £8bn in TV rights deals until 2021.

Football is a long way from imploding, Aston Villa may have big debts, but they have been brought out by a Chinese Millionaire, and will pick up 83m in parachute payments over three years if not promoted. Some clubs have struggled, but none have collapsed because people want to buy "big" teams.

The MArketing of the Premier League by them and Sky has been tremendous, and While there is a handful of clubs more successful in the recent years Barca/Madrid/Bayern English clubs still perform pretty well.

I would also say that the strength of the premier league is better than most if not all other years, even if the football is not the best.

[pedro]

Obviously some Asian 'fans' support their players / owners blindly. Just like our Irish posters with Harrington. But you'd be surprised how many hardcore fans (Liverpool, ManU etc.) there are out there, staying up all night to watch the games, buying all the merchandise etc. And you're hardly a glory hunter if you support Liverpool. Can't see why you can't be a Liverpool or ManU fan without being unemployed and toothless.

[super_realist]

What I'm saying Ben is that it's naïve to think that will always be the case.
People complain about golf losing viewers and the BBC jacking in the Open is just the tip of the iceberg. Why couldn't that happen to football?

Times change, and if people start to feel they're disenfranchised by football then it could be interesting.

You might not be a glory hunter if you're a Liverpool fan now, but you're somewhat of a heritage hunter, bit like Mac with his strange over the top affection for TOC.

[beninho]

I have been reading that the premier league bubble will burst for years. When Roy Keane was sold for £3.75m and got a 50kpw salary, and numerous big signings and wages since.

The premier league has so much money and is so attractive to people all around the world that it could falter but it realistically looks a long way off.

While there may be a few disenfranchised by football, I for one have not cancelled my Sky, I think i Read that Diggers was the same.

Who cares about Glory Hunters, that was a phrase i used when in school its strange that grown adults use the phrase still.

[super_realist]

I have been reading that the premier league bubble will burst for years. When Roy Keane was sold for £3.75m and got a 50kpw salary, and numerous big signings and wages since.

The premier league has so much money and is so attractive to people all around the world that it could falter but it realistically looks a long way off.

While there may be a few disenfranchised by football, I for one have not cancelled my Sky, I think i Read that Diggers was the same.

Who cares about Glory Hunters, that was a phrase i used when in school its strange that grown adults use the phrase still.

Probably because around the world many people with absolutely no connection to any of these Premier League teams ARE adult glory hunters.

[beninho]

The premier league and the big clubs have actively marketed themselves via pre and post season tours and all that is involved in those, advertising with "local" companies, making them official partners and generally trying to build a fan base. Football fans in Asia/America/Africa starved of high class football are attracted to these clubs.

Calling people Glory Hunters is childish. Look at the bigger picture.

[super_realist]

Of course they are glory hunters. How many Milwall fans are there in Vietnam?
How many Norwich fans in Singapore?

It's all about supporting the biggest and "best" teams. It's glory hunting by definition.

The successful clubs know this what happens so cynically market themselves in these places.

If Calcutta Sport suddenly became a force in world football and they marketed themselves over here, any fans that came from that act would be glory hunters. What else could you call them? If they aren't glory hunters, why is it only the "big" teams or ones which have been successful which have this contrived, gerrymandered "fan base"?

[puligny]

Ray - Zidane. What a player - good call.
And Kwini Liam Brady - excellent. Trevor Francis superb. I always liked Tony Currie, and Le Tis, but most needed more international games or dare I say it, more opportunity to play in Europe by being at bigger clubs. I would have preferred the former as I've no problem with them staying put at places they liked and were appreciated - I don't like the often used claim of lack of ambition. So many good 'uns, but would all need to be a lot fitter today.

[JAS]

Pat Murphy described Club Owners as a bunch of billionaire autograph hunters, which I thought was spot on. 'Course, more anxious about staying billionaires than the autographs.
Trouble is, the media lap up all the bling and it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Unless it's a bubble and we're in for a football version of the Big Short. (Which might not be a bad thing.)

Billionaire autograph hunters is a bit generous Kwini, I was thinking more Money laundering Oligarchs :-/

[JAS]

While we're on the subject of footy I do believe I shared an escalator up to the departure level at Gatwick North on Sunday with Sir Trevor. Caught between saying hello and respecting his privacy (he was with his other half) Was half tempted to get a selfie to send to my West Ham mad mate but didn't bother in the end.

[kwinigolfer]

puligny,
Agree about Tony Currie, wonderful player to watch. Never saw Le Tis though, just videos of his exquisite best. I love watching Lallana, but he was awful from what I could see last night.

Yup JAS, think he was thinking more of the wave of Asian owners. Not that their American counterparts are any great shakes; it'll be interesting to see what Henry & the Fenway mafia do with Klopp - they must be getting a touch disillusioned. As Klopp seems to be doing with his team.

[JAS]

Bubble? I don't think so. You may see the odd club going bankrupt or facing solvency issues, but by and large the demand is strong and keeps growing worldwide. As far as I know the premiership feeds nicely off the growing interest in Asia, which includes both TV rights and merchandise. Yes the money involved is absurd, but as long as you have a well known brand (yes, this includes Liverpool FC super) and a famous product, the demand will remain strong. And this is also why the clubs can keep on pushing huge debts in front of them.

So so many people we're still saying that about property in 2006/07. Yes there are compelling arguments to say that football (in particular English Premiership football is in a different league :-p to the Property boom of the noughties but there are parallels in terms of the amount of debt being taken on isn't sustainable in the long term IF there was a change. To be honest Leicester winning it last year did wonders for its medium term profile because it showed it's not all about money. Ultimately that will be its downfall I.e. It will become too polarised with only a handful of teams capable of winning Leagues/cups. As the rich clubs get richer the rest find it increasingly more difficult to keep up. Some may over stretch themselves trying and implode (Leeds anyone). In Europe as well its already polarised. Mourinho will probably go down in history as the last manager to take a non big 5 leagues club to champions league glory. The champions (misnomer) league is no longer a pan European event. There is now clearly a case for the Dutch, Portuguese, Belgian, Danes, Norwegians Swedes and Jocks to walk away and form their own comp and leave the big boys to it, its no longer a level playing field and due to money it's is unlikely to ever be so again.

[pedro]

Doing a Leeds?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2969613/randy-couple-caught-romping-in-dominos-reveal-they-love-having-sex-in-weird-places-and-plan-to-move-onto-pizza-hut-next/

[raycastleunited]

Ray - Zidane. What a player - good call.
And Kwini Liam Brady - excellent. Trevor Francis superb. I always liked Tony Currie, and Le Tis, but most needed more international games or dare I say it, more opportunity to play in Europe by being at bigger clubs. I would have preferred the former as I've no problem with them staying put at places they liked and were appreciated - I don't like the often used claim of lack of ambition. So many good 'uns, but would all need to be a lot fitter today.

I watched a programme on sky sports the other night showing all of Le Tissier's prem goals. I remember him as a legend but looking back today some of the defending was just awful - slow bumbling defenders choosing not to stay on their feet and making it easy for him. Le Tis was doing everything in slow motion - today's defenders would have enough time to recover. Still think he should have had more England caps.

[super_realist]

Le Tissier in terms of ball control and the ability to shoot the ball where he wanted was second to none. It's probably why Hoddle didn't play him often enough, because he's the only English player in the last 30 years to have that ability and it would have taken away from that lunatic Hoddles legacy.

[McLaren]

Super, what a ridiculous assertion it is to say that Le Tissier was the only English player in the last 30 years to have great ball control and shooting.

What about Scholes, Beckham, Sheringham and Lampard. The all had great control and could ping a ball anywhere they wanted. (And I am sure there are more who were the equal or better of Le Tissier)

[super_realist]

Mac, Name anyone (English) else who has scored as many amazing goals as Le Tissier in the last 30 years.

I said "shoot the ball where he wanted to" intimating it is his goal scoring exploits which set him apart, not to mention his penalty taking record. Also, where did I said he was the ONLY one? I said he was "second to none". That doesn't mean that no one else was good, it means his control was BETTER than the others. Jesus Mac, are you illiterate?

I find it really hard to think that you have the ability to pass the MSc you claim to have with your dreadful grasp of language.

Do you just get up every day and say "I'm going to struggle to comprehend anything today"?


It's a good job you've never gone for professional employment, you'd completely fail every psychometric test by being unable to determine context and comprehend clearly.

[McLaren]

Super, you specifically said he was the only player with that ability.

he's the only English player in the last 30 years to have that ability

As I pointed out there are a few English players that not only equaled his particular abilities but bettered them.

And secondly if you were talking about general ability in that statement I would counter with the same names and more.

Whatever you meant in your post you clearly qualified it with the statement that he was "the only" player to have it.

[super_realist]

In regards to his shooting ability, how hard is that to understand?

The word SHOOT infers GOAL SCORING, and no one scored goals as spectacular as Le Tissier in that regard with such regularity, not even Shearer or Cole. So yes, he was the ONLY person to have that ability to regularly score outstanding long range goals like that.

Why don't you ask Xavi about Matt Le Tissier and ask why he didn't rate your list as highly.

It's not my fault that you didn't pass Higher English Mac.

[McLaren]

Super

I think we both agree that Le Tissier was a great player and clearly should have been valued more by England and the other EPL teams, but I just think there were players around over the last 30 years with better shooting abilities. For example Scholes, Lampard, Beckham, even Ince had a pretty good shot.

If Le Tissier was in shape and Spanish then I agree he would have been considered a really great player. But you have to think something stopped him getting a move to a better club and I am unsure what that issue was. Does anyone know what held him back?

[super_realist]

Mac, my point was that Le Tissier scored goals like no one else could, or did with any sort of regularity.

He had chances to go to Man United and Spurs (for who I think he actually did agree terms, but got it cancelled) so he had the chance. Chelsea also came in for him too.

I hear Leicester have held talks with Roy Hodgson. What is wrong with them.

[JAS]

Le Tissier in terms of ball control and the ability to shoot the ball where he wanted was second to none. It's probably why Hoddle didn't play him often enough, because he's the only English player in the last 30 years to have that ability and it would have taken away from that lunatic Hoddles legacy.

Crikey is it really more than 30 years since Gascoigne retired??

[westisbest]

Agree with Super

Le Tissier scores some sensational goals.
Not just the actual finishes, but the skill leading up to them.
https://youtu.be/rp-XhGIyGdo

Some of these goals are as good as any I've seen in the prem.
The 2 against Newcastle being my favourites.

For me Le Tissie was much more exciting to watch then the likes of Beckham.

[super_realist]

Gascoigne wasn't a goal scorer in anything like the same sort of class as Le Tissier. Not even close.
I also think Gascoigne was one of the most over-rated players in English history, he was good, but nowhere near as good as people said he was.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
What makes any club a "better club"? Could well be that Le Tiss was perfectly happy at Southampton. And nothing wrong with that.

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