Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[navyblueshorts]

First topic message reminder :

Actually Davie, they didn't fit yours (apologies; 'idiocy' is a bit strong). Your earlier comments were all about how he'd actually done something terrible/illegal i.e. told them how to get around 3rd party ownership (he didn't) with the possible implication that he'd been knowingly involved in it (no evidence of this), took £400k for dodgy seminars (he didn't and he said he'd have to clear it with the FA) etc. You wanted him to be a crook from the off.
You also claimed Ben and I said he was 'innocent' - we said no such thing.

You never took S_R's approach re. his position being untenable because he was England manager, the one thing he probably falls foul of. His comments re. Hodgson/Nevile were unfortunate, but this was a private conversation and, actually, big deal. Seriously, the next poor schmuck who takes this on should treat the media as they deserve.

There may well be more to this - we'll see. Until then, the only thing he's 'guilty' of is putting himself in a stupid position cf. the FA's comments re. FIFA etc and forcing the FA to ask him to fall on his sword. S_R's right with this; the FA had little choice really.

[Diggers]

Bale is quality, and seems like a genuinely don't to earth bloke as well. A great example that not all footballers are numpties.

[beninho]

Its easy to bash him now, he clearly has mental health issues. But up intil 92 he should have bern the worlds best, he wasnt far off in italia 90. I was only 10 but I still recall it so well. Some good professionals in that squad.

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/cmpwc/CmpWC1990Squad.html

If only beasant was subbed on for the german game!

[super_realist]

Exactly, but if he was English it would be like when Beckham went to Madrid and LA, there would be a dozen journo's out there hounding him and bumming him up all the time, but the Welsh treat him properly.

Most nations have pretty good players to some degree, but none get hyped up like England do. The Iceland manager was spot on about that.

[beninho]

Bale is quality, and seems like a genuinely don't to earth bloke as well. A great example that not all footballers are numpties.

I yhink footballers get a bad press, most are fine if not all inteligent. A few stories tar them all in the eyes of people.
Anyway..remember when bale was a crap left back and harry wanted to get rid to firest. Probably so he could sign krancjar

[super_realist]

Bale is quality, and seems like a genuinely don't to earth bloke as well. A great example that not all footballers are numpties.

I yhink footballers get a bad press, most are fine if not all inteligent. A few stories tar them all in the eyes of people.
Anyway..remember when bale was a crap left back and harry wanted to get rid to firest. Probably so he could sign krancjar

True, they get a bad press and many are fine individuals, but I think when you compare them against other sportsmen you see the lack of intellect, class and style appears to be worse among footballers.

[beninho]

Exactly, but if he was English it would be like when Beckham went to Madrid and LA, there would be a dozen journo's out there hounding him and bumming him up all the time, but the Welsh treat him properly.

Most nations have pretty good players to some degree, but none get hyped up like England do. The Iceland manager was spot on about that.

How do you know how hyped the ayers get in other countries,do you read la monde, as, gazetta etc. Youve mentioned before you are not big on football and ckearly like to bash england players but im interested in your football background, first game, team supported, favourite player etc?

[Diggers]

All players get hyped up Super, we just get our press in our face. But nobody is hyping many players at the minute, tends to be the opposite now, we expect them to underperform as internationals.
Let's face it, Messi is a hype job based on the fact he's never managed to take a good Argentinian side to a World Cup win!

[beninho]

Bale is quality, and seems like a genuinely don't to earth bloke as well. A great example that not all footballers are numpties.

I yhink footballers get a bad press, most are fine if not all inteligent. A few stories tar them all in the eyes of people.
Anyway..remember when bale was a crap left back and harry wanted to get rid to firest. Probably so he could sign krancjar

True, they get a bad press and many are fine individuals, but I think when you compare them against other sportsmen you see the lack of intellect, class and style appears to be worse among footballers.

You seen rugby players? Tjough thats a horrible sport and I have no ibterest in it.

[Diggers]

I would say, without a shadow of a doubt, football clubs are more involved with their community than any other sport and footballers do a lot of hospital/school liaison. But who wants to read about that?

[pedro]

They only do school liaison to catch up..

[beninho]

Your club have been great with that little lad haven't they? A real good news story. Its easy to knock football but a lot is done, so many have community schemes as you say. I love footvall and always will just dont always like it!

[Diggers]

Nice one Pedro. My mate used to work for Arsenal runnning a sort of school where the local kids did computer skills, he said the players were always fantastic with the kids.

[beninho]

Family ties have now linked me in with stoke city and they do a lot of good community work

http://www.stokecityfc.com/community/news/

Still figjting my father in law over who my boy supports

[Davie]

Turning things around a little - how about Theo Walcott - bang average for far too long at Arsenal but I've never seen him let England down

[Diggers]

I think Walcott gets a bad press for Arsenal, whenever he's fit and starts firing he gets crocked. If you look at him as a winger/wide forward, then his stats are up there with anyone.

[super_realist]

Exactly, but if he was English it would be like when Beckham went to Madrid and LA, there would be a dozen journo's out there hounding him and bumming him up all the time, but the Welsh treat him properly.

Most nations have pretty good players to some degree, but none get hyped up like England do. The Iceland manager was spot on about that.

How do you know how hyped the ayers get in other countries,do you read la monde, as, gazetta etc. Youve mentioned before you are not big on football and ckearly like to bash england players but im interested in your football background, first game, team supported, favourite player etc?

How do I know? Firstly because I live in the UK and the Welsh, Scottish and Irish players aren't rated higher than their ability.
When you look at the absurd value placed on English players too, that's another reason to say they're over-hyped. John Stones and Raheem Sterling for example would never command that sort of money were they Danish or Croatian.
And yes, I actually do read some foreign papers (or used to) and they are a lot more humble about the players they have.
Other than that I work in a multi national company and have actually asked my Spanish, German, Italian colleagues about that sort of thing.

[Diggers]

He certainly hasnt for England but Sterling is looking good for City, again he's very young, I don't think he was massively overpriced. As far as I can remember most of the Stones hype is because a lot of European players and managers see him as special, a genuine footballing centre half. Most English press and fans don't rate him as he doesn't go to ground all the time. He does make howlers but do do most young defenders.

[JAS]

JAS, Brian Laudrup, Barry Ferguson and Kenny Miller looked good in that league too, but stunk the house out when they went to better leagues. Gascoigne was terrible at Everton and Boro and the spell of his career when he was good was incredibly small, probably as  much to do with his tiny brain than anything else.

If Gascoigne had been Welsh, there's no way he would have been rated as highly. He's like a lot of English players in that respect.

I do get the overrating thing to a point. Like I said as well, I reckon Rangers got the best of him and yes it was effectively only 3 years. By the time he got to Everton his head was well shot. I still think there was an element of Smith taking him to Everton to look after him. Ferguson, he was OK, Miller...dross, Laudrup??, Now there's a mystery, why did he flop at Chelsea? Ask any Dane what they thought of him at international level. Along with Gasgoigne and Cooper he was one of the 3 most naturally talented truly class players I had the pleasure of watching in a Rangers jersey. Crikey each one of them on their own would be worth more than the current squad.

[Diggers]

Jas, did you rate Hately and Walters. I think England missed a trick with Mark Hately, he developed into a fantastic player.

[super_realist]

He certainly hasnt for England but Sterling is looking good for City, again he's very young, I don't think he was massively overpriced. As far as I can remember most of the Stones hype is because a lot of European players and managers see him as special, a genuine footballing centre half. Most English press and fans don't rate him as he doesn't go to ground all the time. He does make howlers but do do most young defenders.

Not overpriced? He was £49m Diggers. That's an absurd amount for a relatively unproven 20 year old. Can you imagine if he was from NI? He'd be about £10m at best.

[puligny]

JAS - 15th par 5 which plays heavily left to right with a hazard tracking fairway to the right and then across front of green (it's now a lake by the green). He said he'd hit poor drive up right and thought it was lost, but hit provisional. Found first and hit 5wood which he could only see for first 40 yds of its flight. When his pal on left of fairway started jumping up and down Le Tis thought he was taking the p..s - but no! In it went!

[beninho]

But they are not danish or croatians, thats such a rubbish arguement. Football transfer fees are not just based on the skill of a player. Martin Odegaard went in a deal worth upto 8m he was a 15 year old norwegian. Cant think if any english players that age going for thst money.

[Diggers]

Super, what I don't understand is why you think foreign managers and club owners are over hyping English players. They have no reason to think they will turn out to be world beaters as far as I can see? They are the ones paying the big money.
Sterling has massive potential and has shown it in plenty of games, as a premier league big money buy he hasn't been a flop by any means.

[super_realist]

It's not a rubbish argument. The point is that being English clearly puts a premium on their heads.

Moussa Dembele is currently breaking all scoring records in Scotland, doing much better than Sterling ever did and he's valued far less what Sterling was at Liverpool.
EVen more than Griezman has been valued at too.

Yes, Odegaard went to Real Madrid at 15, but how many foreign players are valued at Sterlings or Stones value despite being as good?
Odegaard also looked better than any English 15 year old by a mile.

[Diggers]

So again, why are foreign makers buying them? Why should they rate them? Or is it because at a very young age Sterling had shown what a fantastic player he could be at Liverpool. How he plays for England his irrelevant, they paid for a kid who had already shown what he could do. De Bruyne was big money, he's been up and down as well.
Cities problems aren't Sterling, they are mainly a crap keeper and naive defending, not just from Stones either.

[super_realist]

It's not that they're buying them Diggers, it's the preposterous price they pay in comparison to foreign players of comparable ability. Luke Shaw was another who wouldn't be that price were he not English.

Anthony Martial came with a better pedigree and was cheaper than Sterling or Stones. Bale was sold to Spurs for about 7 million I think.

I don't care how Sterling plays for England or even if he plays at all, he was bought for 49m at 20 years old. That's laughable for someone with about one season of top flight football under their belt and you can't tell me Man City would have paid so much were he not English.

De Bruyne was big money, but at least he was more proven and had more than a season or so behind him.

[Diggers]

None of that explains why the foreign managers and foreign owned clubs are paying the money. Why do they believe the hype, the clubs are businesses.

[Diggers]

And I don't agree about Martial. Soccerex valued Sterling at 50 million based on what he'd done back in 2015. That's nothing to do with English hype, it's based on stats and achievement at a particular career stage.

[beninho]

Moussa dembele is being talked a out at £40m. Sterling cost 50m because he is young, has bags of potential and had shown ability, liverpool also have lots of money in the background and had him under a lengthy contract, they didnt need to sell him, man city are mega rich and can afford to pay it. Also they have restrictions on uk grown players in the premier league squad,it all builds up to a big transfer fee. If he had a year on his contract or 6 mobths he may have been 15 or 20. Same story with stones. De bruyne was 50m and hes not english, sane over 30 and hes not english.

Oscar went for 60m to china and hes not english. Igalo 20mill and hes not even tgat good and not english.

Get off your daft bandwagon and ubderstand how transfers actually work.

[beninho]

Martial a better pedigree he played a season in france or sonething and scired a few goals yet cost upto 58m so more than stetling and stones. Hes not english.

[JAS]

Jas, did you rate Hately and Walters. I think England missed a trick with Mark Hately, he developed into a fantastic player.

Yeah I did Diggers, Walters was a bit of a mould breaker up in Scotland when he came, thought he was superb, Hately too. I remember reading a piece on Hately that Graeme Taylor just didn't rate him and kept calling him Tony (his dads name) at squad sessions. Never forget his goal against Leeds in the CL in '92, silenced a lot of people that one. I also remember Hately not long after arriving saying that given the chance he would take an Old Firm derby over a Milan derby. He would have meant it at the time but I cant imagine any player that's played in both derbies saying that now.

[Diggers]

It was a good Milan side he played in, I think him and Hoddle are remembered in Monaco very fondly. Platini was a massive Hoddle fan apparently. Another wasted opportunity for England!

[super_realist]

And I don't agree about Martial. Soccerex valued Sterling at 50 million based on what he'd done back in 2015. That's nothing to do with English hype, it's based on stats and achievement at a particular career stage.

Of course he's over-priced. He was 20 with one season at Liverpool. There's no way he would have been 49m had he not been English.

And please Ben, lets not talk about CHina or Qatar, that's a different ball game. Furthermore De Bruyne was a proven player with 3 quality seasons behind him. Depay broke the Dutch season scoring record too, so he's another one who was proven.

Dembele has scored over 30 goals this season, much more of an asset than Sterling, yet is valued LOWER.
Stones and Sterling were raw and relatively unproven, no way they would have been such a high transfer if they were Welsh or NI.

[puligny]

Lisbon Lion Tommy Gemmell dies after long illness. So where were people in '67? Alright where were the boards grey beards in 67? I watched it from the settee/soap/couch with my right leg in plaster! Not likely to forget that! Wonderful game.

[McLaren]

So where were people in '67?

Half of me was in one of my mothers ovaries.

[Diggers]

If you are looking at top flight experience at a big club in a big league, De Bruyne had 80 odd appearances in Germany and 20 odd goals, Sterling 90 odd for Liverpool and 18 goals. Struggling to see a difference, other than one is 3 years younger and should therefore demand a higher price in terms of being an asset.
I think De Bruyne is class by the way, but your arguments in general are full of holes. Still no explanation as to why foreign coaches and club owners should choose to buy into English hype, Dembele needs to score some goals in a competitive leauge...and we ignore other countries because it suits your argument to do so?

[Diggers]

I popped out in 67 Puligny. Don't remember a lot about it though.

[beninho]

Of course he's over-priced. He was 20 with one season at Liverpool. There's no way he would have been 49m had he not been English.

And please Ben, lets not talk about CHina or Qatar, that's a different ball game. Furthermore De Bruyne was a proven player with 3 quality seasons behind him. Depay broke the Dutch season scoring record too, so he's another one who was proven.

Dembele has scored over 30 goals this season, much more of an asset than Sterling, yet is valued LOWER.
Stones and Sterling were raw and relatively unproven, no way they would have been such a high transfer if they were Welsh or NI.

Do you even check facts?

Sterling made 95 league appearances for Liverpool and scored 18 goals and 129 appearances in total before he moved to Manchester City at the age of 21.

John STones had made 123 appearances for Everton and Barnsley before he moved to Man City at the age of 22.

Moussa Dembele scored 15 goals in the Championship and has scored buckets of goals in half a season in scotland, his career is so far behind sterling yet he is still being talked about at 40mil.

Depay played 90 times in the dutch league and was sold for 25 million to a bigger club, and it turned out that he could not hack it in the English league so bombed out to France.

Neymar played 103 league games in Brazil before he was sold for 50million.

Its a fact that young players with potential cost a lot of money to buy, it just depends on who you are buying them from and who is buying them, it is not based on them being a certain nationality.

[beninho]

Worlds Most expensive teenagers on intial fee as of an article in August 2016, so it may have changed.

Martial - 36m
Shaw 31m
Moura 28m
Sanches 27.5m
Jesus 27m
Rooney 26m
Saviola 25m
Anderson 22m
Marquinos 22m
Cassano 20m

All relatively unproven and only two English players in there. So clubs pay stupid money for players of a young age from all over the world!

[raycastleunited]

Good points Beninho. Pretty much nailed it, and with evidence too. I thnk Super is just looking to extend his confirmatory bias when it comes to English football.

Sterling was sold for a lot of money, but Liverpool had a sell-on fee to pay QPR as well, it all adds up. £50m is a lot but when you consider fees for Firminho, Batsushai (£32m and hasn't started a league match all season) and others it is just the going rate today.

It's true that English players are hyped in England. But it happens in other countries too. If you read Marca, As or Sport in Spain it's endless... they are daily papers dedicated to sport and have to fill 10 pages every single day on Real Madrid alone (Sport is Catalan so has to find 10 pages a day on Barca). The journalists run out of facts after a couple of pages so most of it is pure hype and speculation, the only difference is that the tabloids in England are more interested in players' cars and who they are having sex with.

[kwinigolfer]

puligny,
Similar, no injuries that I know about though.
After the story this week about Billy McNeill's condition (not to mention Alex Young's Golden Vision being extinguished, see my note on the Football Board), this has not been a good week for Scottish Football GREATS.

Weren't ALL the Lisbon Lions born within 30 miles of Celtic Park? Ronnie Simpson, who had won a Cup Winners' medal for Newcastle 12 years before among them. Can't be many surviving. Unimaginably wonderful achievement though.

Guys like Tommy Gemmell and Bertie Auld were great characters, as well as having achieved the iconic. Gemmell scored in the Final but was just as likely to have been sent off.

PS: You'll see Peter Richardson & Jackie Hampshire left the nets for the last time recently also.

[raycastleunited]

I think Adel Taraabt is the closest modern equivalent to Le Tissier. Taraabt strolled around the pitch in the Championship and made defenders look silly every week, but when QPR got promoted he struggled because premiership defenders were just so much quicker and able to recover (as well as being better defenders). Taraabt wanted to coast and wasn't prepared to put in the extra effort to succeed at the highest level.

Le Tiss had a good life, was well paid, and loved by the fans - it was enough for him and fair play. Sure he could have gone elsewhere and achieved more but why disrupt the life you love?

[JAS]

puligny,
Similar, no injuries that I know about though.
After the story this week about Billy McNeill's condition (not to mention Alex Young's Golden Vision being extinguished, see my note on the Football Board), this has not been a good week for Scottish Football GREATS.

Weren't ALL the Lisbon Lions born within 30 miles of Celtic Park? Ronnie Simpson, who had won a Cup Winners' medal for Newcastle 12 years before among them. Can't be many surviving. Unimaginably wonderful achievement though.

Actually Kwini I think it was 20. Brought up as a Rangers supporter albeit a bigotry detesting one, even I can applaud what a fantastic achievement it was whilst at the same time bemoaning it at a baseline for demonstrating just how far the Scottish game has plummeted.

[kwinigolfer]

The third leg of the resultant Intercontinental Cup is the match I remember most vividly about Gemmell and Bertie Auld specifically.

The scene where Bertie Auld was sent off, refused to go and seemingly all remaining players circled the ref was hilarious, the highlight being Gemmell sneaking round behind the chaotic mob, as wiki reports, to "kick one of the Racing players in the genitals".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Intercontinental_Cup

Well worth a read for those unfamiliar with the battle!

[JAS]

Still a bit young to remember it, I was only 4. I do however remember them getting similar treatment from Atletico Madrid a few years later in a European Cup SF. I think it's the only time in my life I ever felt sorry for them. I must have been around 10 and I was raging for them, I might have been Rangers daft but if there was anything I hated more than Celtic success it was bloody cheats, even at that age.

[Diggers]

Great to see Laura Muir win the first of what will be many gold medals, the next GB athletics superstar I reckon.

[super_realist]

Can someone explain a cricket thing to me please.

Do these "tests" outside World Cups or Ashes i.e. England v West Indies or tours of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc actually mean anything or count to anything? Is anything on the table, at stake or are they to all intents and purposes just a meaningless friendly with only bragging rights and some ranking points available?

[Roller_Coaster]

Some kind of ranking points, I think there's usually some kind of cup/trophy on the line (a la Calcutta cup in Rugby) and they're generally sponsored so some prize money, so yes relatively meaningless to those non cricket following types (like me, although I quite like watching some England tests).

Although with some kind of ranking points I guess it could be arguably more meaningful than the Ryder cup though!

[super_realist]

They do seem rather silly events to get so much news and coverage. To my non-cricket mind they seem about as meaningful as the Autumn Rugby Tests, or International Football Friendlies.

[beninho]

I love Cricket!

England are playing the West Indies in a one day series, its 3 games and the winner is the one that wins more than the other. I am not sure what it is meant to mean other than the series, usually these have a sponsored trophy and some money to the winning team. In the background they have a points system, and this is used to rank players for the world cups (every four years) and Champions Trophy (every two years), which is taking place in England this summer.

There is also Test Matches, played out over 5 days (sometimes). In these the teams get two innings to score the most runs and bowl out the other team, it can be riveting even though a lot doesn't always happen its a slow burner, like a golf major. these are similar in terms of trophys and sponsorship, though the ranking points just count for an ongoing table, there has been talk about a test championship but nothing ever happened.

You also have 20/20 which is again played over a series of 2 or 3 games and each team gets 20 overs to bat, the winner is the team scoring the most runs.

Conditions in different countries mean that home teams have an advantage and each country has its own characteristic.
I would not say its ever meaningless as they are always playing for something even when a series is lost.

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