Tiger Woods day

First topic message reminder :

So today's the day, the Tiger returns.

So how well or how bad will he be ?

With such a small field, he couldn't have comeback into an easier tournament.

But surely, he'll never be ready if he doesn't dip his toe into the water. So he's got to identify a series of "reps" and go for it.
Pity he can't take TWA to Hong Kong and tee it up again on Thursday, meet Poults on the range.

Kwini

From Jason Sobel.

1. Hideki Matsuyama, eagles/birdies: 24
15. Tiger Woods, eagles/birdies: 24

Super

Would you put it on your mantle piece?

His bad back comes from lifting this piece..

Some good and bad outta Tiger this week... Good enough to make birdies in bunches... Bad (or rusty) enough to make bogeys and doubles in bunches too.  Good in that his swing looked way more smooth and in rhythm and strong.... Bad in that half the time he didn't have a clue where the driver was going.

But looks to me his biggest issue was stamina and/or perhaps his back stiffening up a bit which he wouldn't admit. Faded late badly every day except the round he played as a single in a lot less time.  I don't think that's a coincidence.

If it's just rust and stamina the issue, then that and all the bad's are correctable...

McLaren wrote:Super

Would you put it on your mantle piece?

What an egotisitical, self obsessed PR!CK to have a trophy in the shape of an animal which he has named himself after. Further proof of the lack of style in America.
That is a disgusting trophy, even worse than the revolting WGC ones and I think if I was Matsuyama, it would end up in a million pieces on the ground. Simply hideous. Worse than something you see on a pensioners fireplace.

McLaren wrote:Super

Would you put it on your mantle piece?

Heavens! That's hideous.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Super

Would you put it on your mantle piece?

Heavens! That's hideous.

Looks like one of those ghastly plaster figures you might win at the fair and then conveniently "lose" on the way home! I thought when they got a new sponsor they might improve the trophy (the old one was similar) but apparently not. Just showing his class I suppose

I know I said this the last time he won but it must be a bit of a bummer to peak so spectulay outside the major window. No way Hedeki can keep this up until April.

Hard to see what is more tasteless, the trophy or 9C's `1996 style shirt.

Even a Tiger fanboy like me can't defend his style. At least his golf pants sorta look like they were made for his size. Remember his mega baggy ones of old?

As for his clothes, he's now going to take "two weeks off here, get my weight back up," as he complains he's 10 pounds underweight.
Would have thought reps, especially as he experiments with new equipment, were more important than rippling biceps at this stage, but perhaps not.

From what I saw it looked like his driver caused the majority of his problems. Sure he made a few bad decisions but they were all due to a bad drive to begin with. If he could have straightened his driving to be field average I suppose he would have ended near the top 5.

kwinigolfer wrote:As for his clothes, he's now going to take "two weeks off here, get my weight back up," as he complains he's 10 pounds underweight.
Would have thought reps, especially as he experiments with new equipment, were more important than rippling biceps at this stage, but perhaps not.

He said in an interview that he's using a, for him, completely new type (technology) of irons and that he had no idea how far he could hit them (and that he would need more reps to determine that). A bit surprising he's making such drastic changes to equipment that has kept him on top of the world for 15-20 years.

Pedro

He was using his usual vr blades

Hmm maybe I misunderstood. Maybe he was testing something new.

pedro wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:As for his clothes, he's now going to take "two weeks off here, get my weight back up," as he complains he's 10 pounds underweight.
Would have thought reps, especially as he experiments with new equipment, were more important than rippling biceps at this stage, but perhaps not.

He said in an interview that he's using a, for him, completely new type (technology) of irons and that he had no idea how far he could hit them (and that he would need more reps to determine that). A bit surprising he's making such drastic changes to equipment that has kept him on top of the world for 15-20 years.

He hasn't been top for a very long time, and he hasn't used the same irons for the last 20 years either.
His weakness has always been his woods ironically.

Pedro... Agree that his driving was the biggest "technical" issue. I still believe stamina was biggest overall issue.

But not sure he really has any choice but to change irons probably sooner rather than later. I'm sure he probably got some extra sets when Nike got out of the club business, but that can't carry him through the balance of his career. I'm way less sure of any validity to the rumors of TW being involved in a TM buyout group, but I still feel TM or Titleist is the likely way for him to go on irons. And certainly I'm wild a$$ guessing like everyone else.

I didn't see any issues with his style or clothing, except those butt-ugly shoes. They weren't horrible in black, but they were more than awful in white.

McLaren wrote:Kwini

From Jason Sobel.

1. Hideki Matsuyama, eagles/birdies: 24
15. Tiger Woods, eagles/birdies: 24

I counted... and both Tiger and Hideki had 24 birdies/eagle holes for the week.

Tiger - 24 birdies - no eagles = 24-under on those holes
Hideki - 22 birdies - 2 eagles = 26 under on those holes

DJ, Bubba & Spieth were also 24-under on their birdie/eagle holes with 20 & 2 each.

Bottom line: Tiger did make a boatload of birdies, especially considering how poorly he drove it. I take that as a good sign that he can still score when in position. But relative to the field, his under par holes while certainly good, were not extraordinary.

Thanks for the further info robopz. How does Tiger go about cutting out the doubles? Like kwini said is it just about getting reps or does anyone have any other ideas?

Course management Mac, something he has rarely shown in his career. His chipping and putting aren't good enough anymore to get past his lack of course management. That's what's going to stop him getting back, that and his wet cardboard body.

I doubt we'll know much definitively about Woods's condition or game until six months have passed. Woods himself yukked that it sure was a difference walking as opposed to using a cart. Which begs the question, why wouldn't he walk during his practice rounds?

All speculation right now, at least until he starts to play competitive rounds: Torrey Pines will be a much sterner physical test for instance.

McLaren wrote:Thanks for the further info robopz. How does Tiger go about cutting out the doubles? Like kwini said is it just about getting reps or does anyone have any other ideas?

Oooo.....drive it in the short grass more often perchance? He's not short, even now, so he doesn't need to blast it out there and risk finding the cabbage so often. His long irons etc were always a strong suit in his prime too. Ego?

Absolutely Navy, he can't stand not being the longest, and it's cost him a ton of tournaments because his driving is so bad.
These days, he has much longer competition in Day, Pot Head, Reverend Watson and Mcilroy.

How do you win 14 majors with zero course management?

He's always been quick to reach for his 2 iron off the tee to keep it on the fairway. He finished LAST in the driving distance stats at the 2006 Open so no ego there just a claret jug.
Generally he has rarely taken on the flag on par 3's, usually settles for 2 putt par because it's the par 5s where he scores.
Didn't he win an open at St Andrews once without visiting a bunker all week?

Looks like course management to me...

raycastleunited wrote:How do you win 14 majors with zero course management?

He's always been quick to reach for his 2 iron off the tee to keep it on the fairway. He finished LAST in the driving distance stats at the 2006 Open so no ego there just a claret jug.
Generally he has rarely taken on the flag on par 3's, usually settles for 2 putt par because it's the par 5s where he scores.
Didn't he win an open at St Andrews once without visiting a bunker all week?

Looks like course management to me...

It's not that he has none, it's that he has insufficient, especially at crucial periods. I can only think of a few occasions where he won tournaments by thinking well (Your St.Andrews example being one, Hoylake being another). A lot of the time he required snaking putts or Mickelson type short game to escape his woeful driving and cabbage hunting ball path. There is so many times when a long iron or 3 wood would have put him in plum position, but he just HAS to take it on doesn't he? It's like watching a snooker player just bash the balls about.

Not going in a bunker at St.Andrews is over-rated. It's incredibly easy to miss bunkers, especially if you are a longer hitter. The bunkering there is obsolete and more suited to mid handicappers.

Course management = Play to your strengths.

Tiger has always been all over the shop from the tee. Many will argue if he hit his "Stinger" off the tee more often he would be 20+ in majors.

However as a fan, you want these guys to take it on, thats why you watch surely? The 16th chip in, Tiger Slam, Pebble Open - stuff of legend.

Anyhow, I enjoyed his return and went better than I expected. My money is on La Jolla, Dubai/PHX and LA for his next events.

and a lot of the time he doesn't do that, playing to his weaknesses by getting the driver out.

The chip in at 16 was ok, but you have to ask why he missed the green so badly in the first place.

The chip-in on 16th somehow receives yuuuge attention, much more than when Davis Love did the exact same thing a year or so before. Proves Woods watches TV anyway.

I kinda agree with Snap, Woods is very seldom a percentages golfer . . . . . . . though perhaps sometimes he should be.

super_realist wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:How do you win 14 majors with zero course management?

He's always been quick to reach for his 2 iron off the tee to keep it on the fairway. He finished LAST in the driving distance stats at the 2006 Open so no ego there just a claret jug.
Generally he has rarely taken on the flag on par 3's, usually settles for 2 putt par because it's the par 5s where he scores.
Didn't he win an open at St Andrews once without visiting a bunker all week?

Looks like course management to me...

It's not that he has none, it's that he has insufficient, especially at crucial periods. I can only think of a few occasions where he won tournaments by thinking well (Your St.Andrews example being one, Hoylake being another). A lot of the time he required snaking putts or Mickelson type short game to escape his woeful driving and cabbage hunting ball path. There is so many times when a long iron or 3 wood would have put him in plum position, but he just HAS to take it on doesn't he? It's like watching a snooker player just bash the balls about.

Not going in a bunker at St.Andrews is over-rated. It's incredibly easy to miss bunkers, especially if you are a longer hitter. The bunkering there is obsolete and more suited to mid handicappers.

Thats daft Super, Tiger's career is littered with examples of good course mgt. Tigers first professional win for example, he gets into a playoff with DLIII and instead of taking Driver. He famously takes 3w, has the first shot in and puts the pressure on DLIII who bunkers it and can't get up and down. The rest was history. Hoylake too as Ray has pointed out.

Is the socalled 'Tiger proofing' of courses the reason why he seems to have abandonded his 2-iron (at least it seems he has abandoned it?). How much longer is his 3w compared to his 2-iron?

McLaren wrote:Thanks for the further info robopz. How does Tiger go about cutting out the doubles? Like kwini said is it just about getting reps or does anyone have any other ideas?

I think it's two things. Rust and fatigue. Both of those should greatly improve assuming his back really is to the point he can play and practice enough for what's required of a top echelon player these days.

kwinigolfer wrote:I doubt we'll know much definitively about Woods's condition or game until six months have passed. Woods himself yukked that it sure was a difference walking as opposed to using a cart. Which begs the question, why wouldn't he walk during his practice rounds?

All speculation right now, at least until he starts to play competitive rounds: Torrey Pines will be a much sterner physical test for instance.

IMO that's the whole crux of it right there. I realize every back situation is different, but before my successful surgery the big issue wasn't walking, even great distances or up and down hills. The issue was standing around when not walking and walking on hard surfaces. Before surgery, i could walk and carry as long as I stayed off the paths most of the time except when I was having an acute episode. But no way I could be on my feet even a quarter that long if it were on concrete.

I thought TW was wearing out on a flat course even playing in twosomes. He didn't seem to wear out playing as a single. So yeah, IMO Torrey is gonna be a challenge in threesoms with a lot more "standing army" time.

IMO any suggestion TW's course management wasn't among, if not the best of his generation is just daft. Can you say Hoylake?

 IMO all the other evidence you need is the way he used driver less than just about any player out there even back in the days when he was one of the longest. That guy flat played the percentages and rarely took risks unless he had to.  The deal was though.... a lot of shots that might seem risky for others weren't so much for him due to his enormous talent.

IMO a lot of people mistake how bad he'd gotten with the driver as a lack of course management. But the fact is, there's just too many courses out there these days that are birdie fests, and you have no choice but to attack with driver when called for. The situation became even harder for him when he pretty much lost the stinger to new tech and swing changes.

Stenson rarely hits driver and he's doing pretty fine. Not sure if he would win more if he did -- he has had a bunch of 2nd's in his career -- but apparantly he keeps sticking to his 3w.

pedro wrote:Stenson rarely hits driver and he's doing pretty fine. Not sure if he would win more if he did -- he has had a bunch of 2nd's in his career -- but apparantly he keeps sticking to his 3w.

I think it's very much one of the reasons Stenson doesn't win more. Back in the day there were very few guys who could bomb it and keep it in play. But now there's a bunch of them that can at least some weeks. And it only takes one of a Day, Rory, DJ or Bubba to bomb it long and accurate to put the guys laying back at too much of a disadvantage.

It's so frustrating watching Henrik not be able to keep his driver in play and continually put himself at a disadvantage on longer holes being forced into hitting 3-wood, even though its a strong 3-wood.. He's such a great ball striker he can overcome a lot of it, just not all of it.

pedro wrote:Is the socalled 'Tiger proofing' of courses the reason why he seems to have abandonded his 2-iron (at least it seems he has abandoned it?). How much longer is his 3w compared to his 2-iron?

it's a lot harder to keep a ball airborne long enough at low launch angles with new tech lower spin balls. The trend is lower spin higher launch with drivers, that's why you see so few players hitting 2's or even attempting the old stingers anymore.

All this talk about Tiger's great course management - Hoylake, and his first professional win? How long ago was that??? I agree with those who say it's one of his biggest weaknesses NOW. When was the last time he played 72 holes (or even 18) and showed great course management?

Stenson suffered with the driver yips earlier in his career, id say he still has scar tissue there when he takes out the big stick.

Stenson walked off the course after just nine holes of the 2001 European Open at The K Club with a horrific case of the driver yips.
“He had trouble hitting the world,” his coach Pete Cowen would tell Golf Digest five years later. “It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done with a student.”

Davie wrote:All this talk about Tiger's great course management - Hoylake, and his first professional win? How long ago was that??? I agree with those who say it's one of his biggest weaknesses NOW. When was the last time he played 72 holes (or even 18) and showed great course management?

Farmers, Players and WGC Bridgestone in 2013

Davie wrote:All this talk about Tiger's great course management - Hoylake, and his first professional win? How long ago was that??? I agree with those who say it's one of his biggest weaknesses NOW. When was the last time he played 72 holes (or even 18) and showed great course management?

We are replying to Supers comment that he rarely showed course management throughout his career, we gave examples of where he has, not just throughout but from the very beginning. What do you not understand about that?

"super_realist Today at 15:20
Course management Mac, something he has rarely shown in his career."

Be_the_ball wrote:What do you not understand about that?

Maybe consider it a separate thought - these things do develop you know? I haven't seen him show superior course management for years and others would seem to agree

Robo's just given examples from as recently as 2013 which is pretty much the last time he has healthy enough to play, so i don't know what more you want Davie? Now don't get me wrong, there were definitely times his course mgt strategy was to blow it over bunkers and hit par 5's in two, but again thats strategy. His record would suggest he got it right more times than he got it wrong..

I do wonder if we are simplifying course management if we limit it to hitting a long iron or 3W off the tee. I know Stenson gets away with giving up a few yards with the 3W from the tee but we can't underestimate how much easier it is to set up a birdie when you are hitting a 8 iron instead of a 5 iron.

Super is correct to say Tiger keeps bashing driver despite being wayward but maybe his game is about making sure he has a short iron into the green whether that is out the rough or on the fairway. Course management is also about knowing when to attack a pin, where to miss the green, what type of pitch to hit, reading the conditions etc.

If we expand what constitutes good course management who do you consider to be the best course managers, and how does Tiger differ from them?

Tiger is 20/1 to win the Masters.  
At those odds it should be worthwhile 'shorting' him.

pedro wrote:Hmm maybe I misunderstood. Maybe he was testing something new.

In fact it was new woods. Surprising they surprise him given he has had nothing else to do than to test them.

http://www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2016/12/05/hero-world-challenge-equipment-roundup.html

robopz wrote:

pedro wrote:Stenson rarely hits driver and he's doing pretty fine. Not sure if he would win more if he did -- he has had a bunch of 2nd's in his career -- but apparantly he keeps sticking to his 3w.

I think it's very much one of the reasons Stenson doesn't win more. Back in the day there were very few guys who could bomb it and keep it in play. But now there's a bunch of them that can at least some weeks. And it only takes one of a Day, Rory, DJ or Bubba to bomb it long and accurate to put the guys laying back at too much of a disadvantage.  

It's so frustrating watching Henrik not be able to keep his driver in play and continually put himself at a disadvantage on longer holes being forced into hitting 3-wood, even though its a strong 3-wood.. He's such a great ball striker he can overcome a lot of it, just not all of it.

Have you seen how far Stenson hits his 3 Wood? Plus, in what was pretty much the best round of the entire year by anyone, his final round at The Open he often used his driver.

Difference between Stenson and 9C is he picks his moments, 9C doesn't seem to weigh up the consequences of a bad drive, hence his multiple double bogies he had.
Back in the day, he got away with errant drives because he was one of the best putters and one of the best chippers.

Stenson - 40 - great ball striker, long, issues with driver, pulls 3 wood - gets plaudits - 1 Major
Woods - 40 - great ball striker, long, issues with driver, uses it anyway - gets slagged - 14 Majors

One of them is a great golfer who will likely be forever followed by comments along the lines of "imagine what he could have done if he could use a driver".

The other a true great of golf who will likely be forever followed by comments along the lines of "imagine what he could have done if he could use a driver".

Golf is a game of scoring. Getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes a minimum of 72 times in a stroke play tournament. However frequently and enthusiastically the banner of "terrible" driving/course management is wafted at Woods the stats are a pretty big 2 fingered salute back.

Tigers majors came back in the days where courses were shorter, driver was not needed as often and where he could get away with his 2-iron. Maybe there's also a relation to the balls used, as robo pointed out. Also, from my fading memory I do seem to recall that Tiger's driving has not always been as bad as it has been in the later part of his career (post 2008). Maybe it's because he only used to use it when the fairways were open wide, whereas now, he's pretty much forced to use it.

You can pick over stats like that all day, what matters is where they are at this present moment. The point at which to care about who has the most majors is at the end of their career.

Stenson is 10x the golfer 9C is right now. Going on about 9C's 14 majors is like Liverpool constantly living in the past. Who cares?

Woods carrying on as if he was the 2000 model is his problem, he's not a great putter anymore, and his chipping is poor too. Those are what separated him from the rest, and what won him events and what hinders him now, so if his driving his as poor as it is, he can't rely on those previously two strong attributes to rescue him, so what he ought to be doing is making sure he hits fairways to improve his chance of hitting greens.

That's why his course management is an issue, and if you can't see that, that's your problem.