Dylan Hartley rehabilitation setback

First topic message reminder :

Red-carded tonight for a swinging arm tackle against Leinster.

Saints were behind on the scoreboard but on the attack when Hartley came off the bench. Two scrum penalties later, Leinster were on the Saints goal line and duly scored. a try. Not long afterwards, Hartley was sent off, and Saints promptly crumbled. Not really an effective contribution.

It's the sort of thing Hartley has done before but seemed to have left behind under Jones. Poetically, both Lancaster and Jones were at the ground to bear witness.

This red happened in a club match but it has international implications. Jones might stand by his man, or he might take it as a cue to start looking elsewhere for captaincy options. The 6N match against Ireland could be a crucial encounter, and the referee will be Jerome Garces, who just sent Hartley off the field.

If Hartley doesn't lead England during the 6N, then his Lions chances will take a hit.

GeordieFalcon wrote: lots of angelic do gooders on here....

Do you really think Eddie Jones gives a toss about role models or a team full of Angels.... etc. He wants a physical, strong team with attitude that WINS! End of.

Hartley will get a 6 week ban and will be in for the 6n.

Geordiefalcon of course Hartley will be picked, the guy is undroppable. Can do no wrong for some.

At the moment he is undroppable because he is a very good hooker....and is a very good captain - whether any one likes it or not.

George will come on the whole of the 6n...then will be the England starting hooker whilst the lions are on tour.
No big issues.

Jones threw down his marker pretty early when he picked Hartley. Another red card and another ban won't make much of a difference to Jones or Hartley. It's essentially a drop in the ocean.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Would you really want to start a player in the six nations who hasn't played in six weeks? Not ideal at all.

All his appearances for England this year have been off the back of not playing at all.

Geordiefalcon I personally thought he's been solid for England under Eddie Jones. Not spectacular but it's enough for many - just looking for 6/10 performances. Maybe a 7 here or there.

It's easy being a good captain when being surrounded by a winning team.

We saw how Hartley dealt with a team struggling..... oh dear.... your leaders need to step up in these situations. Lead by example.

He's been fine for England but I think he's got too much credit. When you've had someone like Billy getting us on the front foot, Youngs have a very strong AIs, 2nd rows in great form, etc it just makes things run easier.

I wouldn't say Hartley has been one of our better performers. Our scrum generally improves when George comes on too.

Gunsgerms I wouldn't but Hartley can do no wrong for some.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Would you really want to start a player in the six nations who hasn't played in six weeks? Not ideal at all.

You wouldn't play him against Ireland, chances are he'd get sent off

Spot on Ruggerradge

Guns,
It all depends on his fitness. If he's fit he'll play. How fit he is will decide how quick George comes off the bench.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jones threw down his marker pretty early when he picked Hartley. Another red card and another ban won't make much of a difference to Jones or Hartley. It's essentially a drop in the ocean.

Not necessarily. Perhaps he laid down a marker when he told him he'd be captain and told him what he expected in terms of discipline.

I watched the video again, several times over, and it looks worse each time you watch it. However, I decided to freeze the clip to try to work out what's actually happening. For me, the critical frame is at around 24s. This is just after Hartley has grabbed O'Brien with his left hand, and also just after O'Brien has started to fall.

You can see that Hartley's right arm is - at this point - in line with O'Brien's shoulder. A fraction of a second earlier, it would have been perfectly aligned to dislodge the ball. A fraction of a second later, when it hits, it's at head height.

You can also see that Hartley's body is behind and slightly to the left of O'Brien. He's already got contact with the left arm. To wrap, the right arm will have to come around the body.

So, the bad news for Hartley is that he's coming in hard with a straight arm and does not make allowance for the possibility that O'Brien might end up with his head at the height of Hartley's arm. It is a red, and it is a ban (but I don't think anyone doubts that).

However, the freeze frame makes it very clear that the target is the ball. If O'Brien hadn't going down like a sack of spuds, Hartley would have slammed O'Brien's upper arm, completed a wrap, and probably dislodged the ball. Would it still have been a stiff arm tackle and worthy of sanction? We can argue the case but plenty of similar tackles go without comment when they hit their intended target.

It's certainly aggressive and probably reckless, but to say it was a deliberate attempt to target the head does not fit with the available evidence.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I personally thought he's been solid for England under Eddie Jones. Not spectacular but it's enough for many - just looking for 6/10 performances. Maybe a 7 here or there.

It's easy being a good captain when being surrounded by a winning team.

We saw how Hartley dealt with a team struggling..... oh dear.... your leaders need to step up in these situations. Lead by example.

He's been fine for England but I think he's got too much credit. When you've had someone like Billy getting us on the front foot, Youngs have a very strong AIs, 2nd rows in great form, etc it just makes things run easier.

I wouldn't say Hartley has been one of our better performers. Our scrum generally improves when George comes on too.

Gunsgerms I wouldn't but Hartley can do no wrong for some.

Ah look Beshocked....im not a massive fan of Hartley, but I respect his style on the pitch. He does the nitty gritty stuff , whilst Billy etc do the carrying etc. He tackles well and hits the breakdowns.

How did Hartley deal with a struggling team? Well I suggest thats a much deeper CLUB issue which lies at the feet of Mallinder and the coaches...not just something you can throw at Hartley!

and I would hope a fit player would improve the scrum when he comes off the bench!

'He's mistimed it, didn't expect the players body position to change too much. Watch the clip'
'No he's a thug. Was trying to smash his head. Watch the clip.'

Repeat ad nauseum.

Pourfour you are entitled to your opinion but it is a bit of a tall story to be honest.

Poorfour wrote:I watched the video again, several times over, and it looks worse each time you watch it. However, I decided to freeze the clip to try to work out what's actually happening. For me, the critical frame is at around 24s. This is just after Hartley has grabbed O'Brien with his left hand, and also just after O'Brien has started to fall.

You can see that Hartley's right arm is - at this point - in line with O'Brien's shoulder. A fraction of a second earlier, it would have been perfectly aligned to dislodge the ball. A fraction of a second later, when it hits, it's at head height.

You can also see that Hartley's body is behind and slightly to the left of O'Brien. He's already got contact with the left arm. To wrap, the right arm will have to come around the body.

So, the bad news for Hartley is that he's coming in hard with a straight arm and does not make allowance for the possibility that O'Brien might end up with his head at the height of Hartley's arm. It is a red, and it is a ban (but I don't think anyone doubts that).

However, the freeze frame makes it very clear that the target is the ball. If O'Brien hadn't going down like a sack of spuds, Hartley would have slammed O'Brien's upper arm, completed a wrap, and probably dislodged the ball. Would it still have been a stiff arm tackle and worthy of sanction? We can argue the case but plenty of similar tackles go without comment when they hit their intended target.

It's certainly aggressive and probably reckless, but to say it was a deliberate attempt to target the head does not fit with the available evidence.

What are you looking at?

The ball is below the line of the shoulder and if hes hitting the shoulder its still high and illegal

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jones threw down his marker pretty early when he picked Hartley. Another red card and another ban won't make much of a difference to Jones or Hartley. It's essentially a drop in the ocean.

Not necessarily. Perhaps he laid down a marker when he told him he'd be captain and told him what he expected in terms of discipline.

You really think that? Jones picker Hartley as an antagonist in no small part because of his animalistic reputation. He might have damaged his Lions chances, but I doubt he will have damaged his relationship with Jones.

Hartley is an thug, and thats probably why Jones picked him in the first place and also why he made him the captain.

Well Jones was at the game and he looked really disappointed when the cameras were on him he put his face in his hands. Id say he will bring Hartley back in but if something like that happened in an England shirt he would be dropped.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You really think that?

Don't know. Just saying it's possible. I think it's more likely that if the ban is short enough he'll be back in. Lets see Wednesday.

marty2086 wrote:What are you looking at?

The ball is below the line of the shoulder and if hes hitting the shoulder its still high and illegal

Hartley's hand is level with the ball. If he's looking to hit him hard and dislodge the ball his positioning is fine. Why do you ask though? Your mind is made up.

Scottrf wrote:'He's mistimed it, didn't expect the players body position to change too much. Watch the clip'
'No he's a thug. Was trying to smash his head. Watch the clip.'

Repeat ad nauseum.

Rubbish, it's clear as day that Dylan Hartley mistook a clean shaven and unusually short haired Sean O'Brien for Jim Mallendar and tried to take his head off.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jones threw down his marker pretty early when he picked Hartley. Another red card and another ban won't make much of a difference to Jones or Hartley. It's essentially a drop in the ocean.

Not necessarily. Perhaps he laid down a marker when he told him he'd be captain and told him what he expected in terms of discipline.

You really think that? Jones picker Hartley as an antagonist in no small part because of his animalistic reputation. He might have damaged his Lions chances, but I doubt he will have damaged his relationship with Jones.

Hartley is an thug, and thats probably why Jones picked him in the first place and also why he made him the captain.

I still think your going a bit strong there. He's got some disciplinary issues but he's no more a thug than many other players in international rugby past and present.

The bottom line is that Hartley is a bit like marmite...you either like him or you don't. And most people just jump on the bandwagon like a bunch of sheep and declare him a thug and a really nasty man!

Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international rugby. You cant deny that.

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You really think that?

Don't know. Just saying it's possible. I think it's more likely that if the ban is short enough he'll be back in. Lets see Wednesday.

marty2086 wrote:What are you looking at?

The ball is below the line of the shoulder and if hes hitting the shoulder its still high and illegal

Hartley's hand is level with the ball. If he's looking to hit him hard and dislodge the ball his positioning is fine. Why do you ask though? Your mind is made up.

You're right a good slap on the back usually dislodges the ball especially when you cant see it

I wouldn't say he's a thug. Flannery on the other hand was a thuggish hooker...

Cyril wrote:I wouldn't say he's a thug. Flannery on the other hand was a thuggish hooker...

Two bans for Flannery for kicking Hartley 5 for biting, gouging, headbutting, elbowing and punching and you say Flannerys a thug and Hartley isn't? Expert trolling there

marty2086 wrote:You're right a good slap on the back usually dislodges the ball especially when you cant see it

Actually the ball is dislodged quite often in various ways in a rugby game...

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:I wouldn't say he's a thug. Flannery on the other hand was a thuggish hooker...

Two bans for Flannery for kicking Hartley 5 for biting, gouging, headbutting, elbowing and punching and you say Flannerys a thug and Hartley isn't? Expert trolling there

Headbutt? No. Elbow. Yes but he's probably just getting the man off him. Punching. Typical hooker scuffle.

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:I wouldn't say he's a thug. Flannery on the other hand was a thuggish hooker...

Two bans for Flannery for kicking Hartley 5 for biting, gouging, headbutting, elbowing and punching and you say Flannerys a thug and Hartley isn't? Expert trolling there

Cyril is just naming all the Irish players he know. The dirtiest players to play for Ireland were probably Clohessy and Brennan. I actually think Paul O'Connell was a lot dirtier than Flannery, Healy and O'Brien who dont have particularly bad records. O'Connell seemed to get away with a lot.

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:I wouldn't say he's a thug. Flannery on the other hand was a thuggish hooker...

Two bans for Flannery for kicking Hartley 5 for biting, gouging, headbutting, elbowing and punching and you say Flannerys a thug and Hartley isn't? Expert trolling there

Headbutt? No. Elbow. Yes but he's probably just getting the man off him. Punching. Typical hooker scuffle.

You were saying?

http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/05/4305/dylan-hartley-banned-for-four-weeks-for-headbutt-on-jamie-george

I know the incident...it wasn't a headbutt.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jones threw down his marker pretty early when he picked Hartley. Another red card and another ban won't make much of a difference to Jones or Hartley. It's essentially a drop in the ocean.

Not necessarily. Perhaps he laid down a marker when he told him he'd be captain and told him what he expected in terms of discipline.

You really think that? Jones picker Hartley as an antagonist in no small part because of his animalistic reputation. He might have damaged his Lions chances, but I doubt he will have damaged his relationship with Jones.

Hartley is an thug, and thats probably why Jones picked him in the first place and also why he made him the captain.

I still think your going a bit strong there. He's got some disciplinary issues but he's no more a thug than many other players in international rugby past and present.

The bottom line is that Hartley is a bit like marmite...you either like him or you don't. And most people just jump on the bandwagon like a bunch of sheep and declare him a thug and a really nasty man!

Gouging eyes and biting don't represent thuggish behaviour? I'm simply presenting the facts. Ross Ford, Rory Best and Stephen Moore are 3 players off the top of my head who have been regular starters and captains for their country and have amassed a whopping 3 weeks of naughty step between them.

A quick google search provided all the facts I needed.

Hartley on the other hand has become infamous for acts of indiscipline. In April 2007 Hartley was banned for 26 weeks for making contact with the eye of Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor.

He was banned again in March 2012 for 8 weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match.

Then in December 2012 he was banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match.

In May 2013 Hartley was sent off in the Aviva Premiership final against Leicester and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official.

In May 2015, Hartley was found guilty of making contact with the head of opposite number Jamie George in the semi-final English premiership loss to Saracens at Franklin's Gardens.

In total, Hartley has accumulated 54 weeks of bans. Not including whats about to come up as his latest ban.

That's over a year of his career in rugby purgatory. However despite his disciplinary record, in 2016 new England coach Eddie Jones named Hartley as England captain, believing that, his passionate and aggressive approach to the game, gave him the qualities to lead the England team.

I think my assesment involving the word animal and thug is spot on, and Jones likes that.

Hartley is a coward. He wouldn't dare swing at SOB face to face, so goes for the back of the head.

Geordiefalcon the thing is Hartley's very poor disciplinary record speaks for itself.

Now you and many other England fans don't mind because he's not done it in an England shirt.

He's been a solid and reliable hooker but he can't stop himself.

It cost Saints a AP title. It cost Hartley himself a Lions tour, he missed the RWC.

He's his own worst enemy.


When a club is struggling for form someone needs to step up.

My point is that Hartley has been praised for being solid, no more, no less.


Now it looked like Hartley might put his impressively poor disciplinary record behind him but he hasn't.

I find it interesting that Ashton is vilified whilst Hartley is staunchly defended. Not much difference really between them - both have awful records.

I gave up defending Ashton after his stupid ban last year. Him and Hartley are two peas in a pod. Both involved in dwarf throwing too.

Stupidity is just ingrained in some players.

ruggerradge I agree. Jones likes his players who have a bit of fire in the belly hence picking Hartley as captain, Farrell Jr and Brown as vice captains. As long as they stay on the right side, then Jones doesn't mind. They've got a bit of bite.

Relax everyone. Sure you just know Eddie is already long over the shock and is now instead half way through his 6N battle plan where he'll invariably use the incident to lubricate his troops by alluding to any sense of wrong felt by poor Hartley - even if he gets only two days.

"We feel maybe O'Brien milked that a little so yeah, we're probably out to teach Ireland a lesson in how to play real rugby the way men play it."

Oh I'm loving it already! Eddie has become the new Gats.

Kind of agree with Beshocked. Want to see George given a chance. Hartley is good in the set piece and good at getting performances from teammates but otherwise I haven't seen great performances for a couple of years.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

He is an international rugby player. That was my point not where the bans were received. It doesn't make that much difference anyway because if you get a ban in club rugby it counts for international games.

Why would anyone put their finger in someone's mouth? Given that Ferris had an almost impeccable disciplinary record and Hartley doesn't I think its fairly logical to conclude that in all probability it was Hartley up to his old tricks again. You are entitled to your opinion of course.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

Hartley bit him. FACT!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

He is an international rugby player. That was my point not where the bans were received. It doesn't make that much difference anyway because if you get a ban in club rugby it counts for international games.

Why would anyone put their finger in someone's mouth? Given that Ferris had an almost impeccable disciplinary record and Hartley doesn't I think its fairly logical to conclude that in all probability it was Hartley up to his old tricks again. You are entitled to your opinion of course.

To wind up someone who they know has a disciplinary record? All sorts go on in the depths of the scrums...don't make out Ferris is so sweet and innocent...

Munchkin wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

Hartley bit him. FACT!

And if someone puts their finger in my mouth to fish hook me at the bottom of a ruck...I sure in hell would bite it aswell!

Scottrf the thing is I don't think Hartley is a bad player, he clearly is a good reliable hooker for England but he just can't help himself.

I feel sorry for Saints fans the most. I know someone who went to this game - Saints- Leinster. I felt sorry for the paying punters who had to see Hartley letting them down again.

Saints didn't need this when they are struggling as it is. As for England, Jones sees him as too valuable a player.

Scottrf wrote:I know the incident...it wasn't a headbutt.

He was charged and admitted headbutting but it wasn't a headbutt

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Hartley bit him. FACT!

And if someone puts their finger in my mouth to fish hook me at the bottom of a ruck...I sure in hell would bite it aswell!

So a piece of food has to attack you first before you clamp your teeth onto it?  Ok.............

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Whether he is a thug or not he definitely has one of if not the worst rap sheets in international domestic rugby. You cant deny that.

Hasn't most of his bans come from domestic rugby.

Look im not defending his rap sheet massively. Im just saying I think its been a bit excessive at times due to his reputation...and I wonder if each individual altercation was really that bad.

Ie Did Ferris put his finger in Hartleys mouth to deliberately fish hook him Or did Hartley just bite him.

We'll never know and one set of fans will say yes the other will say no.....

Hartley bit him. FACT!

And if someone puts their finger in my mouth to fish hook me at the bottom of a ruck...I sure in hell would bite it aswell!

And an easy red card. Ferris was no angel but doubt very much he was trying to get Hartley to bite him, although trying to get a reaction is fair game.

I think Hartley feels the need to prove himself against the tough guys of rugby, or those he sees as a threat, like Best. He sets himself up for a fall.

Well I guess everyone has their opinion on Hartley and we're all just going to round in circles so ill leave it there on this thread.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Why would anyone put their finger in someone's mouth? Given that Ferris had an almost impeccable disciplinary record and Hartley doesn't I think its fairly logical to conclude that in all probability it was Hartley up to his old tricks again. You are entitled to your opinion of course.
To wind up someone who they know has a disciplinary record? All sorts go on in the depths of the scrums...don't make out Ferris is so sweet and innocent...

Well if you believe that then good luck to you. I cant remember another example of a player ever putting their hand/finger in another players mouth in any rugby match. It would be incredibly stupid as you will probably would be bitten. Ferris isnt a stupid guy, cool story but not very believable.

There are also much easier and smarter ways to get a reaction than putting your fingers in someones mouth.

I have been bitten playing rugby, still have the scars. I definitely wasn't trying to put my fingers in someones mouth.

There's not a lot of objectivity on here, but I'll try to add some. I've gone back very slightly in the video to the earliest point where you can see Hartley's arm - the clock still reads 24s (circled in red), so we're talking about considerably less than a second here.

I've also added some horizontal dashed lines so we can see Hartley's position relative to SOB. Note that Hartley has his leading leg bent at 90 degrees; his torso is low to the ground. His shoulder is - at this point - well below O'Brien's shoulder. His arm is on the same level as O'Brien's elbow and the ball.

If you look back at the picture I posted above, from less than a second later, Hartley's body and legs haven't moved. His leg is still bent at 90 degrees. All that's changed is that SOB has fallen a lot further and Hartley's arm has come round without changing angle.

If Hartley lined that up deliberately, then he is clearly both a genius and an idiot. Genius because he's brilliantly anticipated exactly how and when a player will fall and lined his arm up to make concussive contact at just the right moment. Idiot, because if you can do all that with that precision, why use it for something that is guaranteed to get him carded, rather than dislodge the ball? I'm not big fan of Hartley, but he's not *that* stupid.

Some ignore Hartley's misdemeanors, some don't.....

Geordiefalcon if Hartley did this for England I doubt you would be happy. Fortunately he hasn't.

It's not Hartley's worst incident. It's just another incident. A new offence.

Hasn't hit anyone in the crown jewels yet. That's probably next on the list.

Poorfour wrote:There's not a lot of objectivity on here, but I'll try to add some. I've gone back very slightly in the video to the earliest point where you can see Hartley's arm - the clock still reads 24s (circled in red), so we're talking about considerably less than a second here.

I've also added some horizontal dashed lines so we can see Hartley's position relative to SOB. Note that Hartley has his leading leg bent at 90 degrees; his torso is low to the ground. His shoulder is - at this point - well below O'Brien's shoulder. His arm is on the same level as O'Brien's elbow and the ball.

If you look back at the picture I posted above, from less than a second later, Hartley's body and legs haven't moved. His leg is still bent at 90 degrees. All that's changed is that SOB has fallen a lot further and Hartley's arm has come round without changing angle.

If Hartley lined that up deliberately, then he is clearly both a genius and an idiot. Genius because he's brilliantly anticipated exactly how and when a player will fall and lined his arm up to make concussive contact at just the right moment. Idiot, because if you can do all that with that precision, why use it for something that is guaranteed to get him carded, rather than dislodge the ball? I'm not big fan of Hartley, but he's not *that* stupid.

Someone has too much time on their hands but your picture assumes hes attempting to swing his arm straight forward rather than upwards

Hartley should say that to the citing commissioner too.

'Evidence? Uurgh someone has too much time on their hands'.

Scottrf wrote:Hartley should say that to the citing commissioner too.

'Evidence? Uurgh someone has too much time on their hands'.

Hartley's hand surely took the time anyway to set up the target.  In mitigation though, Hartley was oblivious to what his hand was doing, as that 0.24 shows when he turned away as he struck.  "I wasn't even looking at the crime scene, gov!"

Scottrf wrote:Hartley should say that to the citing commissioner too.

'Evidence? Uurgh someone has too much time on their hands'.

Its about the only excuse he hasn't used

Poorfour
I think most sensible people accept it was an attempt to dislodge the ball that went wrong. Reckless rather than intentional.
However it ends up as a swinging arm to the head which means its a red card.
World rugby guidance means its a 4 week starting point for a ban - intentional would be 8 weeks starting point
then they look at the outcome - SOB has to go off as he is concussed. that adds a couple of weeks. Nothing off for previous good record. so around 6 wks seems to be right

Poorfour wrote:There's not a lot of objectivity on here, but I'll try to add some. I've gone back very slightly in the video to the earliest point where you can see Hartley's arm - the clock still reads 24s (circled in red), so we're talking about considerably less than a second here.
I've also added some horizontal dashed lines so we can see Hartley's position relative to SOB. Note that Hartley has his leading leg bent at 90 degrees; his torso is low to the ground. His shoulder is - at this point - well below O'Brien's shoulder. His arm is on the same level as O'Brien's elbow and the ball.

If you look back at the picture I posted above, from less than a second later, Hartley's body and legs haven't moved. His leg is still bent at 90 degrees. All that's changed is that SOB has fallen a lot further and Hartley's arm has come round without changing angle.

If Hartley lined that up deliberately, then he is clearly both a genius and an idiot. Genius because he's brilliantly anticipated exactly how and when a player will fall and lined his arm up to make concussive contact at just the right moment. Idiot, because if you can do all that with that precision, why use it for something that is guaranteed to get him carded, rather than dislodge the ball? I'm not big fan of Hartley, but he's not *that* stupid.

Taking a freeze frame can make things look different to what they actually were - You say Hartley had "already made contact with his left arm" - I have frozen the video just at the point he approaches and you can see that he is not aiming to wrap his left arm he is actually bracing for an impact against O'Brien. And the reason for that is that he is winding up his right arm to wallop him. That isn't a tackle it is a blow aimed at the player - which is illegal

And with regard to intent - I quote from World Rugby WR laws site

Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4(e)) of the overall circumstances of the tackle.