Player born outside their country of choice

Well, the title explains it really, just for a bit of a debate, and no need to get all tetchy, after debating on here about players not born in the country they represent, I have done some re-search and come up with a list for all the 6N squads and who has players born outside their country. Now we can all debate about players who have lived in their country since they were a 1yr old and the what not, but I have included everybody so that I am not accused of bias ect. One thing that surprised me the most, is the way Scotland have taken advantage of the grandparent ruling. I was not aware of that many.

It does seem that each nation up here is as guilty as the next, but what I now want to debate is, the one's we would consider genuine, as I am not as educated in the history of other nations players, for example I was not aware that Josh van der Flier was 100% Irish until I was educated on the matter on this forum the other day. So this thread is an opportunity for us all to fight the case for the players in our nations squads, please see below for the players I have re-searched:-

England


D Hartley NZ Mother
J Clifford Aus Mother
T Harrison NZ Father
M Williams Zim Grandfather
N Hughes Fiji Residency
B Te'o NZ Mother
M Yarde St Lucia Residency

Ireland


F Bealham Aus Grandmother
U Dillane Fra Mother
CJ Stander SA Residency
J Heaslip Isreal Parents
K Marmion Eng Parents
L McGrath Can Parents

Scotland


A Allan Eng Grandfarther
S Berghan NZ Grandfarther
A Dell SA Grandmother
T Swinson Eng Grandmother
B Toolis Aus Mother
J Barclay HK Parents
J Hardie NZ Grandmother
R Harley Eng Parents
H Watson Eng Grandparents
C Du Preez SA Residency
J Strauss SA Residency
R Wilson Eng Grandfather
A Price Eng Mother
H Pyrgos Eng Mother
D Taylor Eng Parents
S Maitland NZ Grandparents
T Seymour  USA Mother
T Visser Hol Residency

Wales


T Francis Eng Grandmother
J Ball Eng Father
L Charteris Eng Parents
O Cracknell Eng Grandfather
T Faletau Tonga Residency
J King Aus Residency
J Davies Eng Parents
A Cuthbert Eng Mother
G North Eng Mother

France


U Atonio NZ Residency
N Nakaitaci Fiji Residency
V Vakatawa Fiji Residency
S Spedding SA Residency

Italy


D Chistolini SA Grandfather
O Gega Alb Residency
G Biagi Sco Parents
J Furno Aus Father
S Schalkwyk SA Residency
S Parisse Arg Parents
A Steyn SA Residency
L Mclean Aus Grandmother

So, can we/should we debate this ? I would like to, I would like to find out who people would consider genuinely qualified.

If they're eligible under the current rules they're genuinely qualified

What I mean is, the parent rule could come quite redundant if the person has been in said country almost all his life.

I am not aware of any of these types of players outside Wales, the like's of George North and Jonathan Davies may have been born in England, but they have been in Wales since they were about 1 year old.

Don't forget Ross Moriarty.

Very surprised, never knew Yarde qualified only on residency. He's lived in England almost all his life though and I am sure feels English.

Bit like Mo Farah situation. They are both English IMO and I am sure would identify as such.

It can depend really on how a person feels I guess too. What's the person's identity?

Does being born somewhere make you from that place? I would say not necessarily.

A Allan Eng Grandfarther
S Berghan NZ Grandfarther
A Dell SA Grandmother
T Swinson Eng Grandmother
B Toolis Aus Mother
J Barclay HK Parents
J Hardie NZ Grandmother
R Harley Eng Parents
H Watson Eng Grandparents
C Du Preez SA Residency
J Strauss SA Residency
R Wilson Eng Grandfather
A Price Eng Mother
H Pyrgos Eng Mother
D Taylor Eng Parents
S Maitland NZ Grandparents
T Seymour USA Mother
T Visser Hol Residency

Wow Scotland would struggle without the grandparents rule!

The only point in a thread such as this is to attempt to confer second rate status on current international within their respective countries. I have got no intention of doing that for any Scottish players.

As has already been said, if they are eligible and good enough to get picked, that is good enough for me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

A Allan Eng Grandfarther
S Berghan NZ Grandfarther
A Dell SA Grandmother
T Swinson Eng Grandmother
B Toolis Aus Mother
J Barclay HK Parents
J Hardie NZ Grandmother
R Harley Eng Parents
H Watson Eng Grandparents
C Du Preez SA Residency
J Strauss SA Residency
R Wilson Eng Grandfather
A Price Eng Mother
H Pyrgos Eng Mother
D Taylor Eng Parents
S Maitland NZ Grandparents
T Seymour  USA Mother
T Visser Hol Residency

Wow Scotland would struggle without the grandparents rule!

You can twist things out of context though.

John Barclay for example - His parents were temporarily in Hong Kong when he was born (even taking away the whole Hong Kong Sovereignty debate)! His parents are Scottish, John was brought up and schooled in Scotland! He's Scottish no matter which way you look at it! He'd seem far more out of place if he was playing rugby for China!

To be fair to Scotland they only have 2 professional clubs. Same with the Italians.

They have to pick who they can. You qualify - great! Come and play for Scotland!

tigertattie wrote:John Barclay for example - His parents were temporarily in Hong Kong when he was born (even taking away the whole Hong Kong Sovereignty debate)! His parents are Scottish, John was brought up and schooled in Scotland! He's Scottish no matter which way you look at it! He'd seem far more out of place if he was playing rugby for China!

i think things like this need to be highlighted on this forum though, so that we can get away from all the poaching claims and the what not.

This is a very valid point, where you are born, should not set your sovereignty in stone. I would imagine John Barclay is a very proud Scotsman, he is not somebody who has lived his entire life in another country, only to be then told, hey, you have a Scottish grandparent, do you want to play rugby for Scotland ? Things like this need to be educated to people on here, it would solve a lot of arguments.

There are clearly differences even between players who qualify through the same route:

Marland Yarde v Nathan Hughes. Both born overseas to parents of their nation of birth. Yarde moved to England as a 9 year old and learned his rugby in England. Hughes, as we all know, moved for a professional rugby contract in his early 20s. Morally, I have no issues at all with Yarde playing for England, but feel that the eligibility rules need tweaking so that the likes of Hughes aren't eligible (or at least for a much longer period). The Vunipolas are similar to Yarde, in that they've lived here since childhood and their rugby development was in Britain (and I like that they were born in different countries, so one could have been an All Black and the other a Wobbly).

Similarly, Jack Clifford not only has an English father, but started playing rugby at age 11 while already living in England (I haven't looked too hard to find when he actually moved). Dylan Hartley's qualifications aren't as solid, having only moved over at about 17 and having started playing rugby in NZ, although I don't think too may people would seriously question his eligibility.

Obviously, I'm less happy with the inclusion of Harrison, even with an English-born father and in particular with Te'o, not only because he has spent very little time in England, but also because he has represented another country at a variant of rugby.

For the other home nations (and has happened a few times with England fielding Welsh-born players, iirc Martin Corry was the last one), there's obviously the case of players born in England but with Welsh / Scottish / Irish ancestry - as there is free movement between the nations, you can get some rather messy qualifications (and then throw in some Channel Island heritage and you get Budge Poultney, who qualified for Scotland because of having a grandmother from Jersey and therefore having the option of picking any of the home nations...).

Obviously the likes of Barclay and Heaslip just have accidental places of birth, and would never reasonably be considered anything other than Scottish and Irish. When people start arguing that place of birth defines nationality, I'd give the example of that well known German John McEnroe...

Also, you can have the alternative situation where the country of ones birth is not a country of residence, but that you might choose to play for them given an earlier or higher profile opportunity - Tommy Allan would perhaps be an example, in that I understand he was of Scottish and Italian parentage, but spent most of his formative years in England and Scotland, representing the Scots through age group internationals but then choosing Italy for his senior international career.

You can have a debate about eligibility criteria, goodness knows we have already had plenty of them on here.

It is not fair though to try and re-classify existing international players all of whom are legitimately qualified to play for a country.

For what its worth, I think place of birth is one of the worst criteria for deciding eligibility, as the John Barclay or Jamie Heaslip illustrate perfectly. Nationality is a very complicated and maybe even an undefinable quality.

For the sake of international sport, I do accept it requires a definition, but that does not need to be to rigid. Many people, my own family amongst them do not have a simple nationality that they can identify with. None of my children, despite being born in England and having lived all their lives here, would identify themselves as English. They would not say they are Scottish either, though that forms a part of it, no doubt.

In terms of international sport, I am happy enough for people to make a choice (within reason) and the second generation back is probably a reasonable cut off point.

I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

Well it is the 2nd biggest...

But rest easy folks...that's my last comment on the thread.  Carry on debating.

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

I had the same thought

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

To be fair he has dodged the issue of some Welsh players born in England

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

To be fair he has dodged the issue of some Welsh players born in England

Born overseas is worse than born in a different part of the UK, surely?! So yeah, North and JD2, etc are fine!

Edit: or in other words just move the goalposts until it suits/satisfies own criteria and agenda!

Damn it!!!!
Look at all those other nations using native born sons of Mother England in their squads.  Probably stealing them as babies.   England wouldn't do that.......

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

Given the lists are a long way from being comprehensive you can make no deductions from them.

Griff wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

To be fair he has dodged the issue of some Welsh players born in England

Born overseas is worse than born in a different part of the UK, surely?! So yeah, North and JD2, etc are fine!

Edit: or in other words just move the goalposts until it suits/satisfies own criteria and agenda!

Do you know what - I don't give a fig about where one guy was born or another. I just don't get why, say, some people say Kvesic is somehow 'German'. The fact he was born there (to a service family) simply has no relevance to who he is or where he's from. I don't see that, say, JD2, North or, from a couple of years bank, Tom Shanklin not being born in Wales has any relevance to their turning out for Wales. OK Heathcote was maybe stretching things a little but there have been times when Scotland has needed all the help it can get.

But selective use of 'facts' drives me nuts

lostinwales wrote:
But selective use of 'facts' drives me nuts

Yeah.... that's when I turn to lies. Much handier all round

lostinwales wrote:Do you know what - I don't give a fig about where one guy was born or another. I just don't get why, say, some people say Kvesic is somehow 'German'. The fact he was born there (to a service family) simply has no relevance to who he is or where he's from. I don't see that, say, JD2, North or, from a couple of years bank, Tom Shanklin not being born in Wales has any relevance to their turning out for Wales. OK Heathcote was maybe stretching things a little but there have been times when Scotland has needed all the help it can get.

But selective use of 'facts' drives me nuts

Agree very much.

How can we gauge the 'right' to play for a country? You either qualify or you don't.

This thread smells bad. Trumpism is pervasive.

J Heaslip Isreal Parents

Similarly here lostinwales, Jamie was born in Israel while his father was doing a tour with the UN peacekeeping corps in the Lebanon.

I'd even question the title of the thread.

As for the lots of research, there's loads more in Ireland that you could nominate.   I'm sure there's a few more in other countries too.

Joey Carbery - NZ - Irish mother, Irish paternal/maternal grandparents
Quinn Roux - SA - residency 
Nathan White NZ - residency
Richardt Strauss - SA - residency
Jake Heenan - NZ - residency
Isaac Boss NZ - grandparents
Rodney Ah you - Residency
Rob Herring - SA - grandparents
Robbie Diack - SA - residency
Sean Reidy - NZ - grandparents
Jared Payne - NZ - residency
Michael Bent NZ - grandparents
Mike McCarthy - Eng - grandparents
Dan Tuohy - Eng - 
Jordi Murphy - Spain - parents
Niyi Adeolokun - Nigeria - residency
Josh Rowland NZ - grandparents.

FFS, some people really need to wind their necks in.

Just for the record, this was not about starting a peeing contest, it was about the fact that people here could educate one and another about the players in their squads, just as tigertattie has done about John Barclay.

It was nothing to do with who has the biggest list, I went through every nation's squads one by one, just to see what I could find. Then one of the Newport mafia comes on here and starts behavior akin to trolling, then he gets support from other like minded people. I only went through the squads, if there are others, like Pot hale has pointed out, share them, we can then see how far this goes.

We can also debate whether they have lived in the country for X amount of years or not. But just as normal, the V2 way, attack the member, not debate the topic.

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm surprised how small Wales' and France's lists are. Geneuinely thought it would be bigger with Wales having more 'born in England but moved back at a young age'.

I wonder if this thread would have been started if Wales' list was the biggest?!

To be fair he has dodged the issue of some Welsh players born in England

Born overseas is worse than born in a different part of the UK, surely?! So yeah, North and JD2, etc are fine!

Edit: or in other words just move the goalposts until it suits/satisfies own criteria and agenda!

Do you know what - I don't give a fig about where one guy was born or another. I just don't get why, say, some people say Kvesic is somehow 'German'. The fact he was born there (to a service family) simply has no relevance to who he is or where he's from. I don't see that, say, JD2, North or, from a couple of years bank, Tom Shanklin not being born in Wales has any relevance to their turning out for Wales. OK Heathcote was maybe stretching things a little but there have been times when Scotland has needed all the help it can get.

But selective use of 'facts' drives me nuts

I was taking the wee wee, i.e. I was moving the goalposts and deciding what was 'right' to suit my own agenda and to make North and JD2 'OK'! Because that's what people often do in these arguments, when they're being serious! Just a bit of fun, like.

But if we're being serious then here's my serious response: as far as I'm concerned the rules are the rules. If you're not breaking them then there's no issue. But I do feel more comfortable with players that have a blood relative from the nation that they play for, and more comfortable with players that moved here when young and grew up in the culture and rugby of that country. I feel less comfortable with players that are selected based only on 3 year residency. And I don't like the whole concept of the 'project' player at all, as that might suggest even less willingness/desire on the player's part to want to represent that country in the first place (i.e. he might have been identified by the union and approached, rather than aiming to represent a country and then doing everything to get the union to notice him. Big difference). Where the lines become even more blurred is in the UK where we have open borders to work and live as the country is the UK (so many Welsh people, for example, moved in the past to England to get work and had kids before moving back in more prosperous times) yet our international rugby eligibility is still based on the old 4 'nations'. That's always going to create interesting and varied player backgrounds, as demonstrated in the list at the top.

It reminds me of a friend at home who was born prematurely in Barnet while his parents were away. That makes him English and of course open to ridicule and abuse every Wales v England game, obviously! His time living in England was only 2 days or so!

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

It may have been Gwlad or mikey. I get you three muddled up sometimes.

Wow Wales and Scotland are like England B and C sides....which is ironic because they've morphed into the barbarians.

beshocked wrote:To be fair to Scotland they only have 2 professional clubs. Same with the Italians.

They have to pick who they can.  You qualify - great! Come and play for Scotland!

We used to be the third one and its heading that way again...especially if we get Bennett..

Hogg
Lawson
Welsh
Davidson (Scotland U20) Huge potential!
Dawson (Scotland U20)
Glen Young (Former Scotland U20)

And a few others coming through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uSGtRoEQYA

rodders wrote:Wow Wales and Scotland are like England B and C sides....which is ironic because they've morphed into the barbarians.  

Looking forward to when Ireland replace the Wolfhounds with the Irish Maori.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

He probably is. The name certainly is a clue. Just as anything Fitz is generally Norman in origin. Just as anything O' is probably Irish in origin. Just as anything human is allegedly African in origin. Oops...see how I did that? Full circle

miaow wrote:

rodders wrote:Wow Wales and Scotland are like England B and C sides....which is ironic because they've morphed into the barbarians.  

Looking forward to when Ireland replace the Wolfhounds with the Irish Maori.

Me too! We have a grand affinity of spirit going with the Kiwis. Brothers from another Mother and all that jazz

beshocked wrote:To be fair to Scotland they only have 2 professional clubs. Same with the Italians.

Theres 12 professional Italian clubs. They ar eall rubbish though.

Im actually surprised by how short thier list is though. There was a match squad they fielded with 13 non native Italians in a few years back, including one who qualified through grandparents who had left Italy and renounced their citizenship to become Australians.

SecretFly wrote:

miaow wrote:

rodders wrote:Wow Wales and Scotland are like England B and C sides....which is ironic because they've morphed into the barbarians.  

Looking forward to when Ireland replace the Wolfhounds with the Irish Maori.

Me too!  We have a grand affinity of spirit going with the Kiwis.  Brothers from another Mother and all that jazz

But we had Kiwi coaches first! And we've had black jerseys! And we like underperforming in World Cups...

In just under a year and a half I could qualify to play for six different rugby teams (including four of the 6N)

Shame I've never played rugby in my life though (cue jokes about being the perfect back-up for Duncan Weir)

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

He probably is.  The name certainly is a clue.  Just as anything Fitz is generally Norman in origin.  Just as anything O' is probably Irish in origin.  Just as anything human is allegedly African in origin.  Oops...see how I did that?  Full circle

He is not SA in anything, he is Dutch.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

He probably is.  The name certainly is a clue.  Just as anything Fitz is generally Norman in origin.  Just as anything O' is probably Irish in origin.  Just as anything human is allegedly African in origin.  Oops...see how I did that?  Full circle

He is not SA in anything, he is Dutch.

Isnt that the same thing...

The thing that amazes me is that whilst we have to accept people have no choice in where they are born that so many people move to be in Wales.

Pot Hale wrote:I'd even question the title of the thread.

As for the lots of research, there's loads more in Ireland that you could nominate.   I'm sure there's a few more in other countries too.

Joey Carbery - NZ - Irish mother, Irish paternal/maternal grandparents
Quinn Roux - SA - residency 
Nathan White NZ - residency
Richardt Strauss - SA - residency
Jake Heenan - NZ - residency
Isaac Boss NZ - grandparents
Rodney Ah you - Residency
Rob Herring - SA - grandparents
Robbie Diack - SA - residency
Sean Reidy - NZ - grandparents
Jared Payne - NZ - residency
Michael Bent NZ - grandparents
Mike McCarthy - Eng - grandparents
Dan Tuohy - Eng - 
Jordi Murphy - Spain - parents
Niyi Adeolokun - Nigeria - residency
Josh Rowland NZ - grandparents.

Issac Boss isnt in Ireland he is in NZ playing for the chiefs.
Dan Tuohy also plays in England for Bristol.

Gooseberry wrote:The thing that amazes me is that whilst we have to accept people have no choice in where they are born that so many people move to be in Wales.

Or Welsh rugby is so desperate that anyone that moves there gets a call up.

Scottrf wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:The thing that amazes me is that whilst we have to accept people have no choice in where they are born that so many people move to be in Wales.

Or Welsh rugby is so desperate that anyone that moves there gets a call up.

and when they get called up they move out again.

Nice bit of bite in the lead up to this weekends games.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Nice bit of bite in the lead up to this weekends games.

Dylan likes this comment.

I'd like to see Welsh fans try and defend Tomas Francis. He probably only goes to Wales to play internationals..... I'd say his link to Wales is one of the flimsiest. Yes he has a Welsh granny but he was born in England, studied in England and plays for an English side, has never played for a Welsh club team.

Most other players at least play in the country they are representing.

Now we like to joke about players like some Welsh players being born in England but they've lived in Wales most of their lives.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt that the same thing...

This is an interesting point though.

Are residency/immigrant players who have struck a well trodden path to arrive in their 'adopted' country perceived differently to those more unique cases?

For instance, Marland Yarde- a Carribbean immigrant to England- is from a racial and geographical origin that is common in England, and Britain, in terms of migrants. As someone mentioned above, he appears very English, despite qualifying on the same grounds as Faletau, moving to their country at similar ages. Yet there's greater novelty around Faletau, in no small part because of the less obvious Tongan-to-Wales migration link.

Carribbean culture has had a large impact on Britain, particularly England, and particularly in the Cities: it's therefore a sort of symbiotic relationship of nationhood and identity that means when someone like Yarde plays for England, he's less scrutinised/seems less 'foreign' than a Faletau, or a Visser for Scotland.

Countries and nationality, as someone above said, are almost impossible to define: in part they're imagined communities, ways of placing artificial borders down between people. Yet they can also be very tangible and obvious things that inspire people to celebrate those differences, for good or bad.

To bring this back to your original comment, would Tim Visser feel somehow less of a mercenary if he played for South Africa, being Dutch, rather than for Scotland?

The World is increasingly becoming smaller as globalisation allows migration to change the literal faces within a country, in much shorter periods of time than historically possible. Do we feel less comfortable, less able to define a player qualifying on residency if they aren't from an already largely represented immigrant community? I think I know why this is, but I'm not sure it's a particuarly good thing to just rest on your laurels about.

In terms of rugby qualification, there's always going to be a sliding scale both for how the fans feel about that player's identity, and how close that player comes to the cut off point of not qualifying. It's going to be pushed, perhaps even abused, by some, but largely speaking, it's far better to have this scale than a hard and fast draconian rule than turns international rugby into something that reflects the nastier parts of society in terms of how we treat and classify human beings.

If it is true that we, as rugby fans, seem more accepting of 'known migratory route residency players' like Yarde, then that has unpleasant undertones. It also means that England can select anyone from the Commonwealth- which, in many ways, they have in recent years, abiding by the rules* of course- and for it to be more fine than if any other country did. I don't like that idea at all. I also don't like the idea that in a game that should be growing to countries and players outside the traditional heartlands, there would be greater scrutiny/more 'foreigness' ascribed to a player from say North Africa, or much of Asia, were they to play for the Home Nations or SANZAAR for instance. We should be embracing this as a global game, and whilst it would be better to have the football system whereby- by and large- every country plays the sport, and so most countries are represented by players who through geography, blood, culture, and lived location have an affinity with the fans, we don't, and we can't, because Rugby is a much smaller game. With that in mind, it's better to strengthen rugby within those countries rather than taking their best players, but for the present (as that's something that seems a long way away), it definitely relates to the the idea of international players qualifying on residency, as they do now.  

*The rules come with a caveat when it's a professional player like Te'o or Botha, however: both of whom came over for the British pound. That's the historic arm of Imperialism enticing players for monetary reasons, and that sits uncomfortably. In terms of mythologising those players' nationality as English more easily than if they were playing for another country, I don't know where I sit: is it good that England and Britain is so welcoming of outsiders in terms of skin, religion, language, etc., or is it sinister, akin to the historical ownership of Imperial collection, increasing their own teams' strength through purchase and accumulation. I'm not sure. You could argue they're players who were rejected by their home countries, yet Britain/England isn't quite so accepting of outsiders with different skin, language, and religion when they're not winning them medals or matches.

beshocked wrote:I'd like to see Welsh fans try and defend Tomas Francis. He probably only goes to Wales to play internationals..... I'd say his link to Wales is one of the flimsiest. Yes he has a Welsh granny but he was born in England, studied in England and plays for an English side, has never played for a Welsh club team.

The Tomas Francis situation, for me, is a joke. It was a case of having both Samson Lee and Adam Jones injured, and Wales needing a ready made player. I bet if England came in for Tomas Francis first, he would not be a Welsh international.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Dowlais, you don't know when to stop, do you?

I seem to recall you having issue with players whose names didn't 'sound' British a while back. Should they be featured too?

I cannot remember this, please, show me the proof of this. The only player I was not aware about like this was Josh Van Der Flier. I thought he was of SA origin. I cannot remember me making this claim about players though.

He probably is.  The name certainly is a clue.  Just as anything Fitz is generally Norman in origin.  Just as anything O' is probably Irish in origin.  Just as anything human is allegedly African in origin.  Oops...see how I did that?  Full circle

He is not SA in anything, he is Dutch.

Dutch? So a South African with less testosterone? Ah, I was right the first time

Miaow

I think your post is based on a false premise, at least as far as I am concerned.

I don't give a flying monkeys what a player's ancestry is. If they moved to England (for example) as a child and some / all of their rugby development was there then they have very strong ties and deserve to be eligible for selection. This applies as much for the Vunipolas, Tuillagi and (for Wales) Faletau as it does for Yarde.

The issues I have with the current eligibility rules are with players qualifying through 3 years residency when they move for a professional rugby contract, and with some applications of the Grandparents rule (the likes of Tomas Francis or Thomas Waldrom, where there is one grandparent who happened to be born in the country but perhaps hadn't lived there since their own childhood).

For me, the crux of the issue is that the IRB / World Rugby regulations on eligibility did not change rapidly enough to reflect the changes that professionalism in the club game has wrought, and they have done nothing to reduce the 'commercial' disparity between international sides. Far more players, especially from the Pacific Islands, have the opportunity to make a good living as a professional club player, and they then have a choice of representing their home nation and being paid tuppence ha'penny, or holding out for 3 years in the hope of getting selected as with Hughes for England.

Of course another strand is the 'not quite good enough for the Boks or ABs' players, qualifying by similar means, although they are more likely to have some ancestral ties to the UK, so many perhaps are in through the parent / grandparent rules.