England in West Indies

England are in the Caribbean for a few one day games...Tom Curran is the first Curran to make an England squad replacing the injured Jake Ball and it seems Jonny Bairstow will replace Sam Billings who has failed badly in the two warm up games

Also WI Presidents XI had a fat dude who did really well

I think Alex Hales will replace Billings....He originally was only there as recuperation, but he has now been passed fit to play, so i would assume that he will open with roy

From what I've seen, I have not been overly impressed with Tom Curran. I am not sure what is 'special' about his bowling to make him a success at international level. He isn't overly quick (81/82 at most?) and doesn't seem to get prodigious movement. Some scorecard scouting suggests he has done well for the Lions in SL, so he must have something about him!

JDizzle wrote:From what I've seen, I have not been overly impressed with Tom Curran. I am not sure what is 'special' about his bowling to make him a success at international level. He isn't overly quick (81/82 at most?) and doesn't seem to get prodigious movement. Some scorecard scouting suggests he has done well for the Lions in SL, so he must have something about him!

I kinda don't think Tom can make the step up in tests - but in the one day stuff he's a very canny bowler - good control, very good variations (good slower ball, yorker, cutter) and he's pretty much bowled mainly in powerplays/death overs for the past two/three years, and done it very well - which for a 21 year old is impressive imo.

I think Sam is the more likely Curran to make the step up to the test arena - left arm swing at a good lick and becoming a much better bat with every passing day

Sam Curran will need managing, obviously he still has school commitments etc, so his workload will be managed, but Surrey do have a habit of over bowling both Curran's when they play

wisden wrote:Sam Curran will need managing, obviously he still has school commitments etc, so his workload will be managed, but Surrey do have a habit of over bowling both Curran's when they play

Team in bowling their best bowlers the most shocker

Hi Wisden - I'm pretty confident Sam Curran has finished education (at least for now) and is a full time professional going forward. Not sure he's been over bowled by Surrey although Tom certainly has been.

Hi JD - we had the same dance about Tom's ability on the domestic cricket session last year. He's certainly got some talent and maybe a bit more pace than you reckon (at least at times). As Wisden posted, he's shouldered a lot of the bowling workload for his county - to Surrey's benefit, if not always his own. As Olly said, he's been more effective in limited overs games. His youth (he's not 22 for a couple of weeks) tends to get overlooked as he's older than his baby brother. Never easy to judge how much better a young sportsman will get. By way of example, quick change of sport here to football and back in time to 1980 for the Corporal   , Paul Allen was arguably never better than when playing for West Ham in that year's FA Cup Final as a 17 year old. Anyway, all in all, Tom probably merits a chance now as he's done well with the Lions and Ball is crocked.

Hi all - nothing to do with this tour but as regards England - no need to panic at this stage but a little concerning that young Hameed has just had a pretty rotten Lions tour and now goes off for a sinus op. Haven't heard whether his hand is still causing any trouble.

Hi Alfie - new series of Line of Duty coming here soon.

guildfordbat wrote:

Hi JD - we had the same dance about Tom's ability on the domestic cricket session last year. He's certainly got some talent and maybe a bit more pace than you reckon (at least at times). As Wisden posted, he's shouldered a lot of the bowling workload for his county - to Surrey's benefit, if not always his own. As Olly said, he's been more effective in limited overs games. His youth (he's not 22 for a couple of weeks) tends to get overlooked as he's older than his baby brother. Never easy to judge how much better a young sportsman will get. By way of example, quick change of sport here to football and back in time to 1980 for the Corporal   , Paul Allen was arguably never better than when playing for West Ham in that year's FA Cup Final as a 17 year old. Anyway, all in all, Tom probably merits a chance now as he's done well with the Lions and Ball is crocked.

Hi Guildford - yes, I do remember! And I didn't see enough of him last season to change my mind. His County Championship average looks very poor though (45ish), do you attribute that to flat pitches at the Oval, over bowling or just a down year for a young, inexperienced bowler (as you highlight)?

Oh yes, we are all crystal ball gazing if we try to speculate how good Tom or Sam (or any young player) will be in the future, but with Tom I just don't see massive room for growth. Whereas with Sam, once he fills out a bit more and adds a couple more yards of pace allied to his left arm swingers, he just screams future England player - also his batting is better.

England have a defined pathway of how you get into the side though. If you do well for the Lions, you will get a chance and Tom has done that so I can't begrudge him his shot. And here is hoping he proves me wrong.

Hi Alfie - new series of Line of Duty coming here soon.

Now that is something we can all get behind as brilliant news!

JDizzle wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Hi JD - we had the same dance about Tom's ability on the domestic cricket session last year. He's certainly got some talent and maybe a bit more pace than you reckon (at least at times). As Wisden posted, he's shouldered a lot of the bowling workload for his county - to Surrey's benefit, if not always his own. As Olly said, he's been more effective in limited overs games. His youth (he's not 22 for a couple of weeks) tends to get overlooked as he's older than his baby brother. Never easy to judge how much better a young sportsman will get. By way of example, quick change of sport here to football and back in time to 1980 for the Corporal   , Paul Allen was arguably never better than when playing for West Ham in that year's FA Cup Final as a 17 year old. Anyway, all in all, Tom probably merits a chance now as he's done well with the Lions and Ball is crocked.

Hi Guildford - yes, I do remember! And I didn't see enough of him last season to change my mind. His County Championship average looks very poor though (45ish), do you attribute that to flat pitches at the Oval, over bowling or just a down year for a young, inexperienced bowler (as you highlight)?

Oh yes, we are all crystal ball gazing if we try to speculate how good Tom or Sam (or any young player) will be in the future, but with Tom I just don't see massive room for growth. Whereas with Sam, once he fills out a bit more and adds a couple more yards of pace allied to his left arm swingers, he just screams future England player - also his batting is better.

England have a defined pathway of how you get into the side though. If you do well for the Lions, you will get a chance and Tom has done that so I can't begrudge him his shot. And here is hoping he proves me wrong.

Hi Alfie - new series of Line of Duty coming here soon.

Now that is something we can all get behind as brilliant news!

Hi again JD - not a very original answer I'm afraid but I would say a combination of the factors you suggest. Probably also found the step up to Div One quite steep, particularly early on as the team struggled. In addition, treated sometimes more as a workhorse than a young buck learning his game. That reflected the reliability in which he was viewed by captain and management but probably didn't do any favours to his stats.

Other points all noted including Line of Duty.

Not in WI, but first Englishman to make a ton on his Test debut at Lords was the recently departed Jackie Hampshire, vs WI . . . . .

kwinigolfer wrote:Not in WI, but first Englishman to make a ton on his Test debut at Lords was the recently departed Jackie Hampshire, vs WI . . . . .

Kwini - you've done it again! Despite being the other side of the world, you've learned of the death of an England sporting star of yesteryear (although Jack Hampshire's umpiring was not that long ago) and alerted me to it.

Following a private chat we had the other day, I'm going to suggest we have a separate thread titled ''Cricket Obituaries''*. I'll further propose you create and start it off with some reference to JH. I'm sure others of a certain vintage (Sir Fred, the Corporal, Alfie, myself etc) will be keen to chip in with some of their own memories from time to time as other former cricketers are sadly but inevitably included. The younger generation  of posters are of course free to comment and marvel at just how old some of us are!

* PS  Make it a more wide ''Sporting Obituaries'' if you prefer although some sports here seem very protective towards their own. I didn't say tennis.

Thanks in anticipation.

JDizzle wrote:From what I've seen, I have not been overly impressed with Tom Curran. I am not sure what is 'special' about his bowling to make him a success at international level. He isn't overly quick (81/82 at most?) and doesn't seem to get prodigious movement. Some scorecard scouting suggests he has done well for the Lions in SL, so he must have something about him!

Would also point out doing said scoreboard scouting, Sri Lanka A are featuring a heck of a lot of players who play in, or are on the fringes of Sri Lanka's test and one day squads - so a proper test for our young Lions.

Ollie Rayner the most impressive spinner, Leach was taken to the cleaners a bit. Roland Jones impressive with ball and bat down the order too.

Liam Livingstone however the most impressive - successive centuries in the last 4 day game

guildford,
Nah, can't commit to doing that, too much going on, and I'd have to brush up on the Lisbon Lions as well, what with Tommy Gemmell taking off his boots for the last time, and sounds as if Billy McNeill could be joining him soon.

PS: And now I've just noted that Simon Hobday has closed the bar for the last time. Whatever next??

Hokey doke, Kwini. Fair enough. Hope you didn't mind the request.

Don't know if Yorks' supporter London Tiger still prowls this site. If so, maybe he'll post an appreciation of JH. If not, I'll try and do something in the next few days - think he deserves that.

Yeah, saw about both Tommy Gemmell and Billy McNeill. The Lisbon Lions made a big impression on me and my schoolmates at the time. Utterly incredible in this day and age - it's way off topic, Olly and JD, but you should still read this - to recall that eleven players all born within 30 miles of their club ground could win the European Cup. Very sad that through death and serious illness those two roar no more.

More than 30 years ago, I recall coming close to being chucked out of a Dorking curry house as I was there with a small handful of Man City supporters (don't ask!) who inexplicably stanted to chant their manager's name at the top of their voices over and over - ''Billy McNeill's Blue and White Army!''.

Back on topic (almost!) and following up Olly's post, I just can't visualise Ollie Rayner as a Test or international bowler. Even on a good day, a poor man's Ashley Giles.

Only heard from this site that Jackie Hampshire had died. Very sad. I was at Lord's on a summer Saturday in 1969 when he made a hundred against the Windies in his first Test.
There was a lot of competition for places around that time and, like another debut centurion Frank Hayes, Hampshire didn't get that many opportunities. Stylish bat, though.
Also sad about Tommy Gemmell. Well remember his cracking equaliser in the famous 1967 Lisbon European Cup final.

I always thought it was his name that did Hampshire in, sirfred.

Hants' players hardly got a look in for Test cricket for most of about 30 post-war years

A sad two weeks for British Sportsmen to be sure.

guildfordbat wrote:Back on topic (almost!) and following up Olly's post, I just can't visualise Ollie Rayner as a Test or international bowler. Even on a good day, a poor man's Ashley Giles.

Not many of us can visualise Ali, Rashid, Dawson, and Ansari as test bowlers either. Meanwhile Borthwicks reinventing himself as a top 3 bat and Leach has had his action ruined.
Bring on the wheelie bin and tin of custard!

Goose - I accept that's probably a fair point. At least by your usual standards.

If I get the chance at a Surrey members' meeting early in the season, I plan to ask Alec Stewart how much Borthwick's bowling is in the team's plans.

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Back on topic (almost!) and following up Olly's post, I just can't visualise Ollie Rayner as a Test or international bowler. Even on a good day, a poor man's Ashley Giles.

Not many of us can visualise Ali, Rashid, Dawson, and Ansari as test bowlers either. Meanwhile Borthwicks reinventing himself as a top 3 bat and Leach has had his action ruined.
Bring on the wheelie bin and tin of custard!

Goose - just belatedly noticed that you don't mention Batty there. A little surprised although pleased that you are touting for his recall!

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Back on topic (almost!) and following up Olly's post, I just can't visualise Ollie Rayner as a Test or international bowler. Even on a good day, a poor man's Ashley Giles.

Not many of us can visualise Ali, Rashid, Dawson, and Ansari as test bowlers either. Meanwhile Borthwicks reinventing himself as a top 3 bat and Leach has had his action ruined.
Bring on the wheelie bin and tin of custard!

Goose - just belatedly noticed that you don't mention Batty there. A little surprised although pleased that you are touting for his recall!

Probabaly more a case of trying to forget than failing to remember

Jokes aside Englands spin resources have been shown up for what the optimistic were trying to convince themsleves they werent not only by the mauling they collectiovely took tghis winter but also by Lyon and Okeefe who are good buthardlygreat spinners dismantling the same opposition for pennies.

And looking at Borthwick if England do decide that its not worth pretending they have or need a specialist spinner for the summer then if he is bowling they could do worse for a part timer.

Meanwhile it transpires we are terrible at ODI batting too

More to do with the pitch - west Indian pitches are and have been just meh for ages, rarely producing entertaining cricket

Olly and all - not able to watch today. What sort of team have the Windies put out today? I recognise some of the names but not all. Cheers.

guildfordbat wrote:Olly and all - not able to watch today. What sort of team have the Windies put out today? I recognise some of the names but not all. Cheers.

Hard to tell really - its obviously missing a bunch of the big names cos they can't get their act together as a board, but a decent young improving side. England should be beating them

Outfield here is very very slow - as is the pitch. A good total from England and a very good innings from Morgan

Cheers, Olly.

Thanks also for your comments about the outfield. Without knowing that, the scorecard looks a little odd and almost old fashioned - ie a bit light for nowadays, more the sort of total you would have expected from a good batting performance circa 15 years ago.

Umm sack Morgan? Well 296 isn't so bad after all...certainly not from how bogged down they were.I was expecting to see Hales back for this but looks like they are giving Billings a good run to prove himself.

I agree it's come to something that we now consider not making 300 poor...when only a few years back they couldn't make that in any conditions

what the hell is this coverage about? its more like watching advertisements than the cricket

some crank in the commentary box now

compelling and rich wrote:what the hell is this coverage about? its more like watching advertisements than the cricket

some crank in the commentary box now

I just invested

Nice knock from Jason Mohammed. Out from a bit of fancy footwork from Finn.

Good effort from West Indies this. Hopefully England have seen it off though.

I have such a major man crush on Chris Woakes. What a player

What's your assessment Olly?

Both teams pretty happy with that performance I'd think. Not a bad game in the end.

Electric Demon wrote:What's your assessment Olly?

Both teams pretty happy with that performance I'd think. Not a bad game in the end.

Actually think England would be a little disappointed - let it get closer than it should've been at 39-3. West Indies will also be disappointed to conceded 100 off the last 10 to let England get to 296.

Expecting the game on Sunday to be a real slog - same pitch, same ground - that pitch is gonna be worn, big time. 250 will be a tough chase

Could have been a lot closer I think. England saved constricted a lot of runs with much better fielding, and gave away half as many extras. If Brathwaite had been that 20 or so closer might have been a lot hairier at the end there.

What do people make of Stokes not bowling? Morgan confirmed he wasn't injured at all.

I guess stokes not bowling is a mixture of them trying to manage his workload and not taking this game too seriously. Root being first change ahead of Ali and rashid is certainly a thing too

Liam Livingston has just made another top score for the Lions. 94 in tough conditions.

Livingstone is an interesting prospect, not a player that I know much about but looking at his stats he averages over 55 in FC cricket (I think I've got that right anyway!). With England's batting having openings he could easily be playing himself into the test team

Electric Demon wrote:Could have been a lot closer I think. England saved constricted a lot of runs with much better fielding, and gave away half as many extras. If Brathwaite had been that 20 or so closer might have been a lot hairier at the end there.

What do people make of Stokes not bowling? Morgan confirmed he wasn't injured at all.

I really don't think Stokes is a good one day bowler - and as Goose points out, managing his workload a bit wouldn't be the worst thing (with the IPL, and a busy summer ahead)

And on Livingstone - I think he's gonna need a good county summer before making the test side, despite good Lions performances.

He could certainly be a shout for ODI/T20 squads - he's performed well for Lancs in those comps, not so much the CC yet

guildfordbat wrote:Goose - I accept that's probably a fair point. At least by your usual standards.

If I get the chance at a Surrey members' meeting early in the season, I plan to ask Alec Stewart how much Borthwick's bowling is in the team's plans.

Hope you get the chance , guildford ! Would be interested.

Article/interview on Borthwick on Cricinfo the other day. Quite interesting. As were the range of comments it attracted (for once not full of wums).
Clearly the man has ambitions ; wonder if he will get another chance , or has he somehow slipped off the selectors' radar ?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:And on Livingstone - I think he's gonna need a good county summer before making the test side, despite good Lions performances.

He could certainly be a shout for ODI/T20 squads - he's performed well for Lancs in those comps, not so much the CC yet

If Lions form means anything , he has to at least put himself in the frame - has been outstanding. Agree he needs county runs ; but if he gets them ...

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:And on Livingstone - I think he's gonna need a good county summer before making the test side, despite good Lions performances.

He could certainly be a shout for ODI/T20 squads - he's performed well for Lancs in those comps, not so much the CC yet

If Lions form means anything , he has to at least put himself in the frame - has been outstanding.  Agree he needs county runs ; but if he gets them ...

I agree it's too early to consider yet - but be did average 50+ last season. So he wasn't lacking. No daddy hundreds though. 108 no his highest.

Livingstone has largely gone under my radar too although I see that his CC average of 50+ last year was helped by 7 not outs in his 23 innings from which he scored just over 800 runs. None of that is to knock the guy but it's fair to say it's not totally earth shattering either.

I can't argue that he's done (very) well with the Lions. As Olly says, he will though probably need a good summer with Lancs to properly push for an England place. In line with Electric's last post, a daddy hundred would do him a lot of good as well.

No wickets yet for Woakes but only 10 runs coming from his 5 opening powerplay overs to keep Olly happy!

Windies 35/2 off 10. The wickets taken by Finn.

England looking in a good position ....

Is there a reason why no Hales still?

Windies realise this is an ODI and not a test right?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Windies realise this is an ODI and not a test right?

Point taken. Windies 122/4 off 31. England's to win from here, surely?

Holder gets away with a ridiculous not out call from the umpire off Rashid

Windies 225 all out in under 48 overs. Never looks good for the batting side when they don't use their full allotment.

England should be more than strong enough to bring home the bacon today.

Good Roy & Billings combo for a boundary catch according to cricinfo (I didn't see it). Have though seen Roy do that sort of thing at the Oval, he's an excellent fielder for Surrey but rarely seems a leading fielder when in England colours - odd.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Windies realise this is an ODI and not a test right?

India are jealous of 225 as a test score