6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Yep. For this game, definitely. Would be too disruptive to make the change now, even if he doesn't kick.

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Kick at all? Or kick for goal?

A no, B yes.

Really worth listening to the beeb Dawson radio show on the iplayer.

Dawson losses it, very funny.

Farrell not trained at all today.

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Guscott's latest article on the Beeb is worth a laugh. Only yesterday I was joking about the English obsession with Jonny Wilkinson and it takes Guscott, writing about the 6 Nations in 2017, only a few sentences before he name drops the great fly half.

The reference almost feels contrived, it just doesn't fit yet he went with it anyway.

I reckon there's a betting thing going on here, and that Inverdale and Guscott are being remunerated each time they mention his name, similar to the chunky goalie at Sutton who scoffed the pie on the touchline.

kingelderfield wrote:Really worth listening to the beeb Dawson radio show on the iplayer.

Dawson losses it, very funny.

Losing it like he did after the Italy game, or losing it like a normal person?

Losing it like a World Cup winner?

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Kick at all? Or kick for goal?

A no, B yes.

I don't see the justification for selecting Farrell at 12 if he can't kick for goal.

Scottrf wrote:Losing it like a World Cup winner?

Did he win a World Cup?? Was Jonny playing??

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Kick at all? Or kick for goal?

A no, B yes.

I don't see the justification for selecting Farrell at 12 if he can't kick for goal.

Second playmaker, territory control and good defender. The idea that he doesn't create isn't correct either.

Scottrf wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Kick at all? Or kick for goal?

A no, B yes.

I don't see the justification for selecting Farrell at 12 if he can't kick for goal.

Second playmaker, territory control and good defender. The idea that he doesn't create isn't correct either.

I think Slade is better on the first two points and Teo is better on the last, plus Teo is far better taking the ball into contact, and I'd wager both have more pace.

I don't subscribe to the view that Farrell doesn't create, he creates plenty at Sarries, however without his goal kicking I think there are better options.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:Farrell not kicking today.

Question for Eng fans, if he's not able to kick, do you still pick him?

Kick at all? Or kick for goal?

A no, B yes.

I don't see the justification for selecting Farrell at 12 if he can't kick for goal.

Second playmaker, territory control and good defender. The idea that he doesn't create isn't correct either.

I think Slade is better on the first two points and Teo is better on the last, plus Teo is far better taking the ball into contact, and I'd wager both have more pace.

I don't subscribe to the view that Farrell doesn't create, he creates plenty at Sarries, however without his goal kicking I think there are better options.

Slades not with the squad so that points moot.
Id probably have Teo ahead of a non kicking semi fit Farrell too though.

But you're not just switching in and out attributes. There's understanding of the system and the players alongside him, control of pressure etc.

Scottrf wrote:But you're not just switching in and out attributes. There's understanding of the system and the players alongside him, control of pressure etc.

This is true, and continuity is a fair case to make, but I refuse to believe that Teo, who has been involved in the squad throughout, wouldn't be able to slot in.

Still, from a Scots perspective I'd be quite happy for a semi-fit, non-goal kicking Owen Farrell to line up opposite Alex Dunbar.

Given Teo's been in the squad as back up 12 for some time I dont see that as as much of a big deal as it might be.

I just cant see how a guy whos too injured to kick a goal can be well enough to kick for teritory and run around get thumped by various shades of Gray.

Farrell.wasn't doing anything today let alone kick was he? If he's in the side he'll kick. If he's too injured yo kick I would. Imagine he's too injured to play full stop.

Gooseberry wrote:Given Teo's been in the squad as back up 12 for some time I dont see that as as much of a big deal as it might be.

I just cant see how a guy whos too injured to kick a goal can be well enough to kick for teritory and run around get thumped by various shades of Gray.

Nice.

Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

If Farrell is injured, England don't have a good back up goal kicker. Sure Daly generally takes kicks from 50 metres + but is a big ask to tell him to step up.

Will be enough pressure on Ford without Farrell giving him a helping hand, let alone saying he'll have to kick too.

If Farrell isn't fit enough he shouldn't play at all, better to give him a week off, rest up, fit and firing for the Ireland game isn't of having him hobbling around the field. Won't help his confidence either if he's half fit and has another poor game.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

Is that the official line from the bookies? I'd have Henshaw at 12 personally.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

Is that the official line from the bookies? I'd have Henshaw at 12 personally.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/lions-tour/lions-specials/lions-1st-test-to-wear-shirt-number-12

Henshaw is marginally ahead of Farrell.

Full Lions team according to the bookies:

Vunipola, Best, Furlong, Itoje, Jones (C), Haskell, Warburton, Vunipola, Murray, Sexton, North, Henshaw, Joseph, Watson, Hogg.

Manu is 3rd which is pretty ridiculous.... Are our 12 options really that bad?

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

Is that the official line from the bookies? I'd have Henshaw at 12 personally.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/lions-tour/lions-specials/lions-1st-test-to-wear-shirt-number-12

Henshaw is marginally ahead of Farrell.

Full Lions team according to the bookies:

Vunipola, Best, Furlong, Itoje, Jones (C), Haskell, Warburton, Vunipola, Murray, Sexton, North, Henshaw, Joseph, Watson, Hogg.

That's one of the poorer teams I've seen, lets hope the bookies are wrong.

Personally feel that his value as an out and out inside centre (and also leader) is such that if he's fit enough to play (sans kicking) then you pick him.

The Te'o thing is a bit of a curveball because he's a different type of 12 and it would essentially change how the whole team plays. My question was really relating to if Farrell is now considered good enough an IC to get selected just for that.

beshocked wrote:Manu is 3rd which is pretty ridiculous.... Are our 12 options really that bad?

Centres and flankers all over the place with the betting.

People will bet on Tuilagi if you put him in there. I think the odd one is Dunbar, who is far too long in the betting for the 12 shirt.

They also have Wood more likely to start 6 than Robshaw. Harrison gets a namecheck at 7 and is fourth favourite - more likely than Van der Flier, Wood (who gets mentioned at 6 and 7), Armitage (really?) and Watson. Haskell, on the other hand, doesn't even get mentioned at 7 where he's been playing for England.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

Is that the official line from the bookies? I'd have Henshaw at 12 personally.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/lions-tour/lions-specials/lions-1st-test-to-wear-shirt-number-12

Henshaw is marginally ahead of Farrell.

Full Lions team according to the bookies:

Vunipola, Best, Furlong, Itoje, Jones (C), Haskell, Warburton, Vunipola, Murray, Sexton, North, Henshaw, Joseph, Watson, Hogg.

That's one of the poorer teams I've seen, lets hope the bookies are wrong.

How is that a poor team!?

It's a reputation team not a form team.

It would be a huge boost for Scotland if Farrell is injured IMO

cascough wrote:Personally feel that his value as an out and out inside centre (and also leader) is such that if he's fit enough to play (sans kicking) then you pick him.

The Te'o thing is a bit of a curveball because he's a different type of 12 and it would essentially change how the whole team plays. My question was really relating to if Farrell is now considered good enough an IC to get selected just for that.

If we decided to go in a different direction for the Scotland game, I'm fine with that - had we decided it after the Italy game and done 2 weeks of training in the new shape with the change in game plan. Now I wouldn't want to lose Farrell purely as an inside centre on the eve of a game.

I think if he forgot how to kick goals, you could still use him at 12 and wouldn't necessarily drop him without thought. I guess one issue if he can't kick is that he can't cover 10 as we don't have a goal-kicking 9 or 15, so he could only be considered at outside centre.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's a reputation team not a form team.

My issue on picking a form team for the Lions 3 months out is that form is fickle. A good run of form now may be enough to get you onto the plane, but you'll have to produce the goods on tour. If your form deserts you, then you won't make it.

If I had to put my life savings on a team for the first test and needed to get 10 picks right, I'd probably go near enough with that one.

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Isn't this the favourite to take the Lions' IC shirt we're easily dismissing?

Don't know what Eddie's dog was doing on the pitch in the 1st place.

Is that the official line from the bookies? I'd have Henshaw at 12 personally.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/lions-tour/lions-specials/lions-1st-test-to-wear-shirt-number-12

Henshaw is marginally ahead of Farrell.

Full Lions team according to the bookies:

Vunipola, Best, Furlong, Itoje, Jones (C), Haskell, Warburton, Vunipola, Murray, Sexton, North, Henshaw, Joseph, Watson, Hogg.

Farrell is not fav for 12 because he is in the running to start at 10 to.

robbo277 those are the kind of bets worth taking. Scottish players do seem to be underrated.

Russell was 200-1 for player of the tournament before it began and though he's still quite far off, he was alongside someone like Cole in the odds! Laidlaw being injured has helped him too.

Win for Scotland with Russell being influential could make things very interesting indeed. Still I think unlikely but then again we just don't know.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 those are the kind of bets worth taking. Scottish players do seem to be underrated.

Russell was 200-1 for player of the tournament before it began and though he's still quite far off, he was alongside someone like Cole in the odds! Laidlaw being injured has helped him too.

Win for Scotland with Russell being influential could make things very interesting indeed. Still I think unlikely but then again we just don't know.

Friend of a friend has Kyle Sinckler at Lions TH at something like £20 at 200/1. Not hugely likely still, but by no means impossible - especially with the attrition rates in modern props.

It would be strange to field an England match day squad with only one fit fly half. Especially since we've got good options, and - in Slade - someone who has trained with the squad, and got on the pitch against Italy.

I can't imagine that May would be the one promoted to the bench, having him and Watson makes no sense.

Gustard s comments do seem strange saying they'd bring te'o into the team and May to the bench. Leaves us wide open to having Daly at 10 if Ford is then injured.

If I were the Scotland coach and looking at that England line up I would be targeting George Ford and Elliot Daly early on in the game.
Ford's defence can be suspect at times and when put under real pressure he isn't always the best at dealing with it, sliced kicks, missed kicks to touch. Target him early with not just forwards but the likes of jones and Hogg running down his channel.
Elliot Daly is a cracking player and for me one of the best 13s in Europe but on the wing he is inexperienced. His positioning at times has been suspect and the likes of Seymour and Hogg can really test him, get Russell putting a few little kicks in behind him.
Hoping for a famous Scottish victory but I think the impact of that English bench will get the over the finish line but only just.

Who the hell is Roger Baird? Just been on the news as a former Scotland player? Never heard of him?

Majestic83 wrote:If I were the Scotland coach and looking at that England line up I would be targeting George Ford and Elliot Daly early on in the game.
Ford's defence can be suspect at times and when put under real pressure he isn't always the best at dealing with it, sliced kicks, missed kicks to touch. Target him early with not just forwards but the likes of jones and Hogg running down his channel.
Elliot Daly is a cracking player and for me one of the best 13s in Europe but on the wing he is inexperienced. His positioning at times has been suspect and the likes of Seymour and Hogg can really test him, get Russell putting a few little kicks in behind him.
Hoping for a famous Scottish victory but I think the impact of that English bench will get the over the finish line but only just.

The funny thing is that you basically take out Ford and Daly's names, replace them with Russell and Visser as players for England to target for almost the same reasons you said for Scotland!

Think you can make some very good points.

Rugbyjk wrote:Who the hell is Roger Baird? Just been on the news as a former Scotland player? Never heard of him?

Scottish and Lions winger in the 80s. About 30 caps, he never scored a try for Scotland but did for Lions during the 83 Lions tour.

Thanks LT.

Rugbyjk wrote:Who the hell is Roger Baird? Just been on the news as a former Scotland player? Never heard of him?

Scotland winger from the '80s - he started in all four Lions tests in '83 and by all accounts was pretty good.

If Farrell is injured then I'd love to see the like for like inclusion of Slade.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but Slade has not been selected for the Chiefs game on Sunday.

However I do expect Farrell to start.

Cheers IB, I only really got into watching rugby from 1990, but this fella only looked about 40 which is why I couldn't understand why I hadn't heard of him.

beshocked wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:If I were the Scotland coach and looking at that England line up I would be targeting George Ford and Elliot Daly early on in the game.
Ford's defence can be suspect at times and when put under real pressure he isn't always the best at dealing with it, sliced kicks, missed kicks to touch. Target him early with not just forwards but the likes of jones and Hogg running down his channel.
Elliot Daly is a cracking player and for me one of the best 13s in Europe but on the wing he is inexperienced. His positioning at times has been suspect and the likes of Seymour and Hogg can really test him, get Russell putting a few little kicks in behind him.
Hoping for a famous Scottish victory but I think the impact of that English bench will get the over the finish line but only just.

The funny thing is that you basically take out Ford and Daly's names, replace them with Russell and Visser as players for England to target for almost the same reasons you said for Scotland!

Think you can make some very good points.

Absolutely, I expect England to put some of their big ball carriers down Russell's channel to really test him, generally Russell isn't too bad in defence and Scotland seem to use him pretty well in their defensive system. Have noticed they often move Dunbar into that channel or one of the back rows with Russell acting as a 2nd sweeper.

Visser is hard to judge if he has improved his defence especially under the high ball or whether he got lucky against Wales. He has said he has been working on his weaknesses with the Quins coaches and players. He certainly does look to have improved but out of all the Scottish players he is certainly the most suspect in defence.

IanBru wrote:

Rugbyjk wrote:Who the hell is Roger Baird? Just been on the news as a former Scotland player? Never heard of him?

Scotland winger from the '80s - he started in all four Lions tests in '83 and by all accounts was pretty good.

He was a very good player, one of the few players to come back from that Lions tour, which was a shambles, with their reputations intact or even enhanced.

Did not score for Scotland but made plenty, including the sublime end to end effort, which was started by him and involved half the team, when we beat Wales in Cardiff, scoring 5 tries in the process and ending another long losing sequence.

How does a good winger not score a try in 30 tests? That's just the quality of the Scotland attack?

Actually, Scottie raises a good point?

Majestic83 wrote:If I were the Scotland coach and looking at that England line up I would be targeting George Ford and Elliot Daly early on in the game.
Ford's defence can be suspect at times and when put under real pressure he isn't always the best at dealing with it, sliced kicks, missed kicks to touch. Target him early with not just forwards but the likes of jones and Hogg running down his channel.
Elliot Daly is a cracking player and for me one of the best 13s in Europe but on the wing he is inexperienced. His positioning at times has been suspect and the likes of Seymour and Hogg can really test him, get Russell putting a few little kicks in behind him.
Hoping for a famous Scottish victory but I think the impact of that English bench will get the over the finish line but only just.

The problem with kicking to Daly is that it tends to come back the other way with 10 meters on it. Unless youve left a bit of space in which case it will come back in hand very quickly.
Id certainly see Englands back 3 (4 including the bench) as better able to handle aerial ping pong than Scotlands....all have experience playing full back as well as wing, all have a decent boot and the ability to handle the high ball. I suspect both teams will want to keep the ball out of the hands of the oppositions outside backs to be honest.
Ball in touch wont do Scotland much favours either with Englands line out. They may be pretty secure on their own ball but wont fancy their chances in spoiling Englands much, and they hand the big forwards a great platform to maul if the wide games not coming off.
If Scotland kick all their posession away its a hiding to nothing for them IMO. Chances are they will not see that much of the ball as it is, and the theory that England will get stronger as the games progresses will be even more of a thing if Scotland have been defending all game.
Obviously there may be the odd time when somethings spotted, or even polanned moves to draw players out of position that will lead to kicks being on as part of attacking moves. But I wouldnt see long kicking as a core part of Scotlands approach to the game being a winner for them.

Scottrf wrote:How does a good winger not score a try in 30 tests? That's just the quality of the Scotland attack?

That was kind of the point of the article. That Scotland untill very recently have had some decent players but really struggled to score tries ....especially in the backs. Not always down to a lack of ability, but with the new coaches theyve reset the whole way they think about attacking in the 22. And its payed off big time in the last two years.