6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

Bless him

If the lions go to NZ and play gatlandball I will absolutely rage.

This is not as a bitter England fan, it's as a rugby fan that wants to see some good entertaining rugby.

If Gatland takes a Wales majority squad and plays Gatland ball rugby that will be the death of the lions.

I enjoyed the opening game last series in Hong Kong and the series in general. But if this next series is handicapped by a low grade, biased coach I will be done with the concept.

Well said and agreed mid!!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland normally post up a butchers bill on Monday. Bennett's tournament is over tho, that looked nasty. Also Wilson got absolutely rattled, I'd be surprised if he or Seymour can make it back for the Italy game.

I actually didn't see what happened to Hogg, so I dunno bout that.

Wilson ran into Itoje's shoulder in the first half too. They showed it in slo mo a couple of times, and it looked bad enough that I am surprised he lasted as long as he did

Ford, Farrell and Joseph today showed why Gatland ball is dead and buried. Even 2 tries Scotland scored were more about guile than power. A physical game will not beat NZ, you need the sort of cutting edge England demonstrated today.

A back line of

9. Murray
10. Ford.
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Hogg

Could be devastating.

Yeah, but drop Hogg.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Rugbyjk wrote:So boys, Ireland next. (2nd) grand slam and a world record to be won. How we feeling about it?

I still have nightmares about an Ireland side that has nothing to play for, the day after Paddy's day and against the side they love to beat the most. They will not need any motivation to give their all to stop us gaining a second consecutive GS. They could play out of their skins.

I don't think they have enough ammunition but it could get nasty. Hopefully with nothing else to play for, a few might have their minds on staying fit for the Lions and not put in that extra few percent.

The battle of the front rows will be fascinating, Ireland's front row seriously under performed yesterday against a front three that has struggled all 6N. Neither of England's front threes have struggled to date against any opposition. They haven't dominated, but that is now longer what the game is about. On current form it would be 6 Englishmen going with the Lions just for the front rows.

Yeah it wouldnt be the first time we lost the GS in ireland despite winning the championship - the whole going to get the trophy thing following a beating isn't fun. Plus Ireland have this thing about playing teams on their record breaking games, the st Paddy thing etc. They could well come out and play like demons next week.

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Rugbyjk wrote:So boys, Ireland next. (2nd) grand slam and a world record to be won. How we feeling about it?

I still have nightmares about an Ireland side that has nothing to play for, the day after Paddy's day and against the side they love to beat the most. They will not need any motivation to give their all to stop us gaining a second consecutive GS. They could play out of their skins.

I don't think they have enough ammunition but it could get nasty. Hopefully with nothing else to play for, a few might have their minds on staying fit for the Lions and not put in that extra few percent.

The battle of the front rows will be fascinating, Ireland's front row seriously under performed yesterday against a front three that has struggled all 6N. Neither of England's front threes have struggled to date against any opposition. They haven't dominated, but that is now longer what the game is about. On current form it would be 6 Englishmen going with the Lions just for the front rows.

Yeah it wouldnt be the first time we lost the GS in ireland despite winning the championship - the whole going to get the trophy thing following a beating isn't fun. Plus Ireland have this thing about playing teams on their record breaking games, the st Paddy thing etc. They could well come out and play like demons next week.

Agree, England need to build on this match, not rest. And everyone in the team knows what is at stake next weekend and doubtful Eddie Jones will let up in practice.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ford, Farrell and Joseph today showed why Gatland ball is dead and buried. Even 2 tries Scotland scored were more about guile than power. A physical game will not beat NZ, you need the sort of cutting edge England demonstrated today.

A back line of

9. Murray
10. Ford.
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Hogg  

Could be devastating.

Not currently sold on North. He was good vs Ireland but that is down to getting the ball in space with a chance at a run up. He was involved more than of late too. But he has had a lot of duff games recently, and if he's caught before he gets any momentum he's not up to much.

Williams better

I hope England havent peaked too early with that performance. I would have liked a stiffer test from Scotland.

England played well today but it was a against a Scotland team that was decimated by injuries and was unravelling all over the field. A stupid yellow card 2 mins in didnt help either.

I would expect a backlash of sorts from Ireland after their performance in Wales so I think England will need to be at their best to get the win.

lostinwales wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ford, Farrell and Joseph today showed why Gatland ball is dead and buried. Even 2 tries Scotland scored were more about guile than power. A physical game will not beat NZ, you need the sort of cutting edge England demonstrated today.

A back line of

9. Murray
10. Ford.
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Hogg  

Could be devastating.

Not currently sold on North. He was good vs Ireland but that is down to getting the ball in space with a chance at a run up. He was involved more than of late too. But he has had a lot of duff games recently, and if he's caught before he gets any momentum he's not up to much.

Williams better

Watsons feet are awsome and don't get me started on his speed!

Where abouts are you Tighthead, think we would get on well over a beer?

Rugbyjk wrote:Where abouts are you Tighthead, think we would get on well over a beer?

One guy sharing a solitary pint talking to himself.

I like him.

Here, there, everywhere at the moment, business is booming since Brexit, I'm away next weekend so I'm just so happy England wrapped it up tonight.

Rugbyjk wrote:I like him.

In a you feel sorry for him kind of way?

TightHEAD wrote:Here, there, everywhere at the moment, business is booming since Brexit, I'm away next weekend so I'm just so happy England wrapped it up tonight.

We haven't actually left Europe yet.

Nope, just agree with him

Rugbyjk wrote:I like him.

You have a lot in common.

nathan wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Here, there, everywhere at the moment, business is booming since Brexit, I'm away next weekend so I'm just so happy England wrapped it up tonight.

We haven't actually left Europe yet.

No true, but it's a done deal.

Why didn't England pick up the 6 nations trophy today? We should have got it I front of our own fans at HQ.

They don't until the tourney is done. Shame if they lose next week as it's always a bit deflating lifting it following that even though you have earned it.

TightHEAD wrote:

nathan wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Here, there, everywhere at the moment, business is booming since Brexit, I'm away next weekend so I'm just so happy England wrapped it up tonight.

We haven't actually left Europe yet.

No true, but it's a done deal.

Why didn't England pick up the 6 nations trophy today? We should have got it I front of our own fans at HQ.

Well, the only certain thing is we are leaving but the deal has certainly not been done yet. We get the trophy in Dublin.

We should have got the trophy I in front of our fans at home. Silly to get the thing in a empty stadium next week

So well done England, that was some performance. We could not live with it.

It was very dissapointing as we are a better side than that and yet we got what we deserved on the day and at some cost in terms of manpower.

Hard to see any real postives other than we fought to the bitter end and did eventually put together a few decents phases in the second half.

I only hope we look upon this as a bit of a watershed and a bench mark as to how far we have still got to go to be playing competitively with the best teams around.

I think the only real significant difference that game showed between the sides was squad depth. I've no doubt it would have been a very different game if Scotland had Strauss, Laidlaw, Hogg et al. for the full 80. So without wanting to sound condescending, I'd take the result with a pinch of salt guys. The only area of surprising weakness for me was your centres defensively, just seemed like a bad day at the office.

I expect next year in Murrayfield will be very different.

For England I really don't understand why Lawes doesn't get more plaudits. I think he's been consistently our best carrier and best overall performer, and I think he deserves to be ahead of others for the Lions.

Rewatched the Hogg incident and seems to go off for what looks like a nosebleed for no reason whatsover. Wasn't touched by anyone. Very strange.

Scottrf wrote:Rewatched the Hogg incident and seems to go off for what looks like a nosebleed for no reason whatsover. Wasn't touched by anyone. Very strange.

Just a bit thick then!

TightHEAD wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Rewatched the Hogg incident and seems to go off for what looks like a nosebleed for no reason whatsover. Wasn't touched by anyone. Very strange.

Just a bit thick then!

Seriously man, you won,.enjoy it.

Don't just sit here trolling and winding folk up.

Go off, have a beer, make love to whomever might be lucky enough to be Mr or Mrs TightHEAD.

Don't hover on here kicking seven shades out of a bunch of people who are hurting right now. Keep it classy eh?

that was embarrassing


you can't underestimate the damage that has done to Scotland's lions chances

all those English players are now world class

TightHEAD wrote:We should have got the trophy I in front of our fans at home. Silly to get the thing in a empty stadium next week

I imagine it will be a fairly empty feeling when Ireland spoil the party with their inevitable home backlash.

Well having slept on this and reflecting on it, there is no doubt it is a bitter disappointment for this very young Scotland side. This year was maybe a season too early with a lot of players yet to hit their prime. We lost heavily to a frankly brilliant England team and still scored 3 tries, despite not having our first choice props, our first choice number 8, our captain and first choice scrum half, and lost a horrific amount of players during the game to injury.

We'll learn a lot from that defeat and hopefully tighten up the defensive channels in the centre.

Let's be honest, next week's game against Italy is entirely winnable, especially at home and if we were offered 3 home wins at the start of the 6N I think all the Scotland fans would have taken it.

Well not too many people would have expected that performance or score, just brilliant. Shame on the early injuries as that really rocked a Scotland side already on the back foot and the scoreline reflects that more than anything else.

Shows Scotland have a long way to go. Talent yes, but when the team suddenly got into a position when people were talking them as contenders they folded. Yet to be fair it happens to most young sides... I just hope they can learn from it.

A lot of the errors were not injury or yellow card caused. 3 tries from 1st phase lineouts. good running lines sure but you shouldn't leak tries such as that. So many pens from rucks with little reason in their own half.

The card, hell I thought it was red and had the ref been a more seasoned one he might have given it.  Lots of positives but I think a lot of players played themselves out of a touring jersey.

Take away the tries Huw Jones has scored and he is still one hell of a player. He'd be in the bok squad this year had he pledged himself to them and stayed in SA. I really think he should tour.

I still think Scotland will get half a dozen players on tour and maybe even 3 test players. Never know though.... a 15> point loss for Ireland next week will somehow push them 4th which would be a great legacy for Vern if he managed to get Scotland seeded in pool 1 for the next RWC (assuming they'll do the number on Italy).

Missed the first 20 because I was playing a game, apparently missed quite a bit! But an exceptional performance for England against a good Scotland side.

This England side dong seem as brittle as the 2011 or 2013 versions and I cant see us folding next week, Ireland will have to be near their beat to beat us but they're obviously capable.

Great 80 minute performance as well, you'd think Jones will probably go unchanged for Ireland unless injury rules Daly out, in which case Watson will start.

I do think in the medium-term development of this team we will need to find replacements for Hartley, Haskell and Brown, but with their performances yesterday they all showed their value.

Tom English used the word shellacking and that pretty much sums it up nicely!

We needed a good start and I think it is fair to say we got the dictionary definition of a bad start. Brown's utterly needless tip tackle effectively made it game over after 2 minutes - that gave England all the momentum they needed and boy did they make it count.

Very frustrating that we defended first phase ball so badly, even if Joseph ran his lines well. A hatrick without anyone laying a finger on him was an embarrassment to the defence.

My one big frustration watching was the breakdown, where the ref killed off the one area we may have had an advantage and slowed ball down. I couldn't see exactly what happened but he regularly penalised us to the point that it even drew an ironic cheer from the England fans around me when he finally gave us a penalty! We obviously didn't react well to his interpretation.

Injuries really didn't help us (Price on the wing was basically a wasted player) but I suspect we were still onto s hiding if this hadn't happened.

So all in all a dark, dark day for Scottish rugby - beat Italy and this will have still been a fantastic tournament for Scotland but this defeat will leave a sour taste in the mouth, even for Cotter when he's earning his millions in France.

Final word on my first Twickenham experience - it is a fantastic rugby stadium. 80,000 English people belting out GSTQ was genuinely intimidating but the numerous renditions of swing low didn't seem overly enthusiastic. All in all the atmosphere was strangely flat given they were giving a team a hiding - perhaps because there was zero competition to it. Still, it is certainly an intimidating place for visiting teams and fans but I didn't find any hostility and the old guys behind me were very gracious.

Gwlad wrote:

Rugbyjk wrote:Don't mean to ridicule the lions here, it's the gatland bit.

Yeah i mean why should you support a winning Lions coach who actually would have won a 2nd tour were it not for the inability of an English prop to scrummage and an Irish 10 to know when it is the smart move to kick it into touch.

But that is the contribution we can expect from England and Ireland while it is Welshmen who score the points!

They do? I was under the impression that only Italy have scored less in this 6 Nations.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Final word on my first Twickenham experience - it is a fantastic rugby stadium. 80,000 English people belting out GSTQ was genuinely intimidating but the numerous renditions of swing low didn't seem overly enthusiastic. All in all the atmosphere was strangely flat given they were giving a team a hiding - perhaps because there was zero competition to it. Still, it is certainly an intimidating place for visiting teams and fans but I didn't find any hostility and the old guys behind me were very gracious.

I am with RDW on this one, I was at Twickenham two years ago for the first time in a long time and was massively impressed by the stadium and the atmosphere. It is intimidating for visiting sides but that is how any home ground should be, I hope in time that Murrayfield starts to give off the same vibe, there seems to have been a bit of that this year.

Telfer just needs to learn to keep the gob shut sometimes, he does not always do the side any favours coming out with stuff like he did, trying to wind up the opposition and fire us up. Cool heads are needed to win games down there and we did not have any of those once the game started. The occasion got to them big time and the results were plain to see.

kingelderfield wrote:That's a knock on at the base.

Has Brown passed the ball in this game?

Serious question.

Just watched the game back and I countered 2 passes (there was also a very poor offload where the ball trickled across the floor) from Brown, neither when in any real attacking position. This was across approximately a dozen or more clear possessions - he just does not either consider creating space or an offload, let a lone a strait forward pass.

Put it like this, and I appreciate he will very rarely be in this position, but consider Joseph's pass at pace, sympathetically given to Watson for the try. The question is this, so ask yourself honestly, would Brown have passed to Watson or would he have held onto possession?

The evidence is that he would hold on and the points would go begging.

Defensively he can be and often is excellent, but going forward we will need more in attack, much more.

You're not considering where Brown takes the ball into contact and it was touched upon by another far more knowledgeable poster than me that it seems to be a clear tactic. Ask yourself this who of the backline is likely to present the ball in the defensive half and who is it that does it time and time again?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You're not considering where Brown takes the ball into contact and it was touched upon by another far more knowledgeable poster than me that it seems to be a clear tactic. Ask yourself this who of the backline is likely to present the ball in the defensive half and who is it that does it time and time again?

I agree he can be defensively excellent however even there he no longer breaks tackles with the same regularity. What I am really concerned with is his inability to add to or to link with our attack.

With regards to Pourfour's theory, the ability to return and present the ball is pretty standard fair for any self respecting full back.

If Scotland went to Twickers and played badly, and England reached close to their potential, then Scotland would of been battered in the same manner as any other 6 Nations team.

England have played below their best in all their games so far, so at some point they were always going to do a number on someone.

Just a little curious, how will this game go down?

Every body expects to put a big score on Italy, but not every body expects tp put a big score on Scotland.

So how will this score line be seen. Great score because England beat Scotland. Or a lucky score because England beat an injury ravaged Scotland.

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a little curious, how will this game go down?

Every body expects to put a big score on Italy, but not every body expects tp put a big score on Scotland.

So how will this score line be seen. Great score because England beat Scotland. Or a lucky score because England beat an injury ravaged Scotland.

A bit of both. Scotland were injury ravaged, but England were amazing. I reckon they still would have scored a lot of tries against us, but our defence of the England kicking game would have been better if Hogg, Seymour and Bennett were on for longer.

It's important not to underestimate how good England were. It's the best I've ever seen them play. They were devastating.

Had Scotland kept their best attacking threats on we might have got that TBP, but I don't think keeping Hogg or Bennett on would have changed the games outcome.

We did miss Laidlaw. He would have helped keep our composure in that opening 20 when we came apart at the seams.

Hoonercat wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Rugbyjk wrote:Don't mean to ridicule the lions here, it's the gatland bit.

Yeah i mean why should you support a winning Lions coach who actually would have won a 2nd tour were it not for the inability of an English prop to scrummage and an Irish 10 to know when it is the smart move to kick it into touch.

But that is the contribution we can expect from England and Ireland while it is Welshmen who score the points!

They do? I was under the impression that only Italy have scored less in this 6 Nations.

Whilst conceding the least.

Are you unable to distinguish between the 6 Nations and a Lions tour which was the subject of these posts?

The only positive I can take at the moment is this should, and could, be a water shed moment for this team.
They're still a young team and they failed to do what Scotland are normally quite adept at and put the pressure on the opposition. Instead all the pressure ended up on them. They all came out and claimed they could and probably would win. Then the result on Friday effectively turned the game into a six nations decider. I think the result was decided before kick off. For any proof of that look at John Barclay's face prior to the kick-off, he looked like he would be sick.
I have for a long time thought that the build up for the Scotland game has a stifling effect on Scotland, some are overcome with the atmosphere and fail to control their passion like Fraser Brown and some are stifled and play well under their abilities.
Scotland need to get together and say never again. Fair play to England though, they're a class outfit on their day and second only to the all Blacks.
I only hope we give them a hiding next year at Murrayfield.

" Mike Brown must do better with the ball"

Vs Scotland...104m ran ( more than all the Scotland outside backs and centers combined)
Vs Italy ...110m twice as much as any other England player managed
Vs France ...104m just short of twice the next England player ( also most defenders beaten)
Vs Wales...52m , 4th best figure in the game joint top in defenders beaten. The one game you can genuinely make a bad case that he didn't do much attack wise.
Sure it doesn't tell everything by any means but he hasn't been seeing that much more of the ball than other England outside backs.
And he's passed the ball more times in one match than Nowell has in the entire competition.

Leads England in defenders beaten ( although yes I would caveat that against him having had more opportunities by being on the pitch continuoulsy)

Sure we don't know how much Watson might do from the same position but some of the accusations levelled against him simply arent true.

That he's not getting replaced ( is finished off the correct term now?) Kinda suggests that Jones is more than happy with his contribution despite having a glut of flashy young wings who could turn into full backs.

Brown, may have passed the ball more than Nowell, the problem being that Nowell frequently had no options. Brown had numerous chances with players outside him and instead of straightening the line and giving them room before passing, carried on running at the angle. reducing space and then tried to go alone, EVERY TIME. If he occasionally passed, he would have more success, defenders gang up on him as he leaves no space for anyone else and they now he is not going to give anyone else a crack.

I still rate Brown, his defence is peerless, but EJ needs to take him aside and tell him that his position is in danger unless he does what everyone else does and passes for the good of the team. A short sharp lesson like the one given to JJ would not be amiss.

I don't think Brown has been anywhere near his best and he is probs by in the twilight of his England career. That said after watching Ireland bombard Wales and win the cast majority of balls in the sir he could be the most important player we have next week. If he is has a good game it'll go a long way towards England doing well.

Well, Brown is going to see a lot of ball in Dublin. The Ireland backs will be launching bomb after bomb. Brown and the wings are going to get a high ball trial by fire.

Gooseberry

If Brown returns 5 kicks for 20m, he gets his 100m. With loose kicking, he could do that in front of the defence without beating a tackle from fullback.

Without reviewing the games and every time Brown touched the ball, I couldn't tell you if I'm right or it's just a case of confirmation bias, as I think Brown has been taking the ball into contact a lot and failing to get passed first man on kick returns, even if he's been racking up some easy yards running kicks back.

He's not doing badly, but I think he offers a little less in attack and if we want to move forward we should start considering other options.