Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

by **RDW** Mon 20 Mar 2017, 10:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Results

Scotland 27 - Ireland 22 Yahoo

France 22 - Scotland 16 Crying or Very sad

Scotland 29 - Wales 13 Yahoo

England 61 - Scotland 21 Shocked

Scotland 29 - Italy 0 Yahoo

Some stats:

- First time with 3 wins since 2006
- First opening round win and win over Wales in over a decade
- 14 tries scored - our best ever
- Our highest points tally (in 2014 we scored 45 points Shocked

)
- Up to 5th in the World Rankings

Verdict
Bar Twickenham this was a fantastic 6N where we won our games playing great rugby. It was a huge monkey off our back to beat Wales and the Ireland game was a huge result for us. The Twickenham game was a complete embarrassment but I'd like to think that was a freak result for this team as opposed to a sign that our wins over Wales and Ireland were 'lucky'. It should keep the players grounded going forward, which is no bad thing.

All in all I'll give our 6N a 8/10

Lions hopefuls?

Pr - can't see any travelling
H Fraser Brown stands an outside chance, and could be injury cover
L - Jonny or Richie Gray stand a chance in the most competitive position
BR - I don't see any of our backrows going
SH - Laidlaw is down the list in terms of ability at 9 but may be picked as a good tourist/leader for the squad
FH - Finn Russell certainly divides opinion but personally I don't think he will travel
C - Dunbar and Jones are outside bets in what isn't actually a great position of depth for the Lions, but again may find themselves as injury cover
FR - Hogg is a near certainty and I can see another winger getting picked, probably Seymour

My prediction:

J Gray, Hogg, Seymour in the squad, Brown, Laidlaw and Jones as first choice injury cover.

by Gwlad Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:Oh yeah, let's not forget the Slams. Let me see... where are they? Place is a mess.

Oh here they are! - right under the framed scalps of BOD and Adam Jones.

and Stewie's face at RWC Sad

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 22 Apr 2017, 12:34 pm

Think Toonie will take that Finlay Christie chap that's playing for the chiefs? He looks like a handy player. Scottish born too.

by **BigGee** Sat 22 Apr 2017, 1:34 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Think Toonie will take that Finlay Christie chap that's playing for the chiefs? He looks like a handy player. Scottish born too.

I think Glasgow are still short of a SH for next season, with the international commitments of Henry P and Ali P, we need another one. He could fill the gap.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 22 Apr 2017, 1:39 pm

BigGee wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Think Toonie will take that Finlay Christie chap that's playing for the chiefs? He looks like a handy player. Scottish born too.

I think Glasgow are still short of a SH for next season, with the international commitments of Henry P and Ali P, we need another one. He could fill the gap.

Maybe Glasgow can go and have a jolly good time to themselves and stop hoovering up all the talent!

by **BigGee** Sat 22 Apr 2017, 2:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Think Toonie will take that Finlay Christie chap that's playing for the chiefs? He looks like a handy player. Scottish born too.

I think Glasgow are still short of a SH for next season, with the international commitments of Henry P and Ali P, we need another one. He could fill the gap.

Maybe Glasgow can go and have a jolly good time to themselves and stop hoovering up all the talent!

Fair's fair, we could give the lad the choice. Would you prefer to come and play for Glasgow or Edinburgh?

by **George Carlin** Sun 23 Apr 2017, 9:12 am

Aussie sides not looking all that clever in Super Rugby this season. Miles off the pace.

I really fancy us to push them close and even sneak a win in the summer.

Maitland at full back, Visser left wing, New & Improved Selkirk Pixie or Bennett on the right wing is not too bad at all. Centres can be Dunbar and Taylor if Shuggy The Younger is still out (which he will be).

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 23 Apr 2017, 9:23 am

Bennett is expected to be out for almost the whole of next season currently GC. Naturally. Having a quality player sign for Edinburgh we couldn't expect to be fortunate enough to actually see them play for us

by **George Carlin** Sun 23 Apr 2017, 9:42 am

Forgot about Bennett's Injury Protest.

Wallabies still looking vulnerable. I disagree with the view that we don't want Nel and Dickinson back. For the Aussie test, they will be absolutely priceless. That is serious World Rugby rankings points if we can take that and will also put our guys right in the shop window for Lions injury cover.

by TJ Sun 23 Apr 2017, 7:52 pm

How about grooming Horne as back up 10?

by **BigGee** Mon 24 Apr 2017, 1:53 am

George Carlin wrote:Forgot about Bennett's Injury Protest.

Wallabies still looking vulnerable. I disagree with the view that we don't want Nel and Dickinson back. For the Aussie test, they will be absolutely priceless. That is serious World Rugby rankings points if we can take that and will also put our guys right in the shop window for Lions injury cover.

I don't think it is about not wanting them back, it is just that they won't be any way match fit for a test match after missing the whole season just about. They will surely need to be eased back in and not thrown. We want them both fit for next season and onwards, we play the Australians again in the autumn.

by **BigGee** Mon 24 Apr 2017, 1:54 am

TJ wrote:How about grooming Horne as back up 10?

I suspect that he will be this summer, more due to lack of alternatives than whether it really is a good idea or not.

by TJ Mon 24 Apr 2017, 8:18 am

Thats my thought - we don't have any other options

Weir seems to have lost his way completely - I think he needs to go and play for a small team - english / french second division so he can have a season or two as a regular starter

Horne has done fine when pressed into the 10 shirt. I thnk he should be Russells back up as Weir on the bench is only going to get on if Russell is injured - so instead use Horne - off the bench he can cover 10/ 12 / 15 or if he is on the park he can slide into 10 if Russell is injured allowing the backs on the bench to be more versatile

by funnyExiledScot Mon 24 Apr 2017, 10:12 am

George Carlin wrote:Forgot about Bennett's Injury Protest.

He's lying under the duvet at home shouting "I don't want to go to Edinburgh".....

by funnyExiledScot Mon 24 Apr 2017, 10:15 am

TJ wrote:Weir seems to have lost his way completely - I think he needs to go and play for a small team - english / french second division so he can have a season or two as a regular starter

The other lawyer in my team goes on mat leave in September so I think I'll offer Weir a job as her cover. Sure, he isn't actually qualified or anything, but I'm confident his legal skills will match his abilities as a fly half, plus he looks pregnant so the transition will be seamless. Anything to keep him away from Edinburgh rugby.....

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 24 Apr 2017, 10:16 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Forgot about Bennett's Injury Protest.

He's lying under the duvet at home shouting "I don't want to go to Edinburgh".....

Who can blame him? Like I said he felt that having the ACR graft was preferable to playing for Edinburgh!

Nah I think we need some calm down juice. Cockers IMO is exactly the man who can turn that shambles at Myreside around. All the players will be fresher than the bulk of their peers in the PRO12 and we have a good chance to hit the ground running.

by EWT Spoons Mon 24 Apr 2017, 1:56 pm

Not been on here for a few days, what the hell is going on with the number of lions threads?!

There's always been a few, but they seem to have exploded over the last few days.

by Scottrf Mon 24 Apr 2017, 2:03 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:Not been on here for a few days, what the hell is going on with the number of lions threads?!

There's always been a few, but they seem to have exploded over the last few days.

Gatland announced his squad.

by EWT Spoons Mon 24 Apr 2017, 2:08 pm

Scottrf wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Not been on here for a few days, what the hell is going on with the number of lions threads?!

There's always been a few, but they seem to have exploded over the last few days.

Gatland announced his squad.

Yeah saw that, but even then there were one or two, now there are loads.

by R!skysports Mon 24 Apr 2017, 2:34 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Not been on here for a few days, what the hell is going on with the number of lions threads?!

There's always been a few, but they seem to have exploded over the last few days.

Gatland announced his squad.

Yeah saw that, but even then there were one or two, now there are loads.

Most by the same person with another tiny change to the angle of attack on Gatland :-)

by Gwlad Mon 24 Apr 2017, 4:14 pm

Angle of attack? I'd call it unbearable whining.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 25 Apr 2017, 9:09 am

Gwlad wrote:Angle of attack? I'd call it unbearable whining.

Of which you are an unparalleled expert.

by tigertattie Tue 25 Apr 2017, 9:20 am

Saucer of milk for Radge please!

by Gwlad Tue 25 Apr 2017, 5:13 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Angle of attack? I'd call it unbearable whining.

Of which you are an unparalleled expert.

on your whining i am its true, you never stop do you even now, just because Gregor snubbed the lions and your laddies didn't get selected.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 25 Apr 2017, 6:06 pm

tigertattie wrote:Saucer of milk for Radge please!

Why thank you tattie

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 25 Apr 2017, 11:51 pm

This Glwad kid needs to change his name to Thrush.

by Gwlad Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:48 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This Glwad kid needs to change his name to Thrush.

Get that a lot do you? Best have a chat with the Mrs Smile

by **George Carlin** Wed 26 Apr 2017, 5:38 am

Gwlad wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Angle of attack? I'd call it unbearable whining.

Of which you are an unparalleled expert.

on your whining i am its true, you never stop do you even now, just because Gregor snubbed the lions and your laddies didn't get selected.

Gwlad - there was some debate on the mods board yesterday about whether you deserve a short ban for your consistent following of people on Lions threads and unremitting, borderline nationalistic comments about anyone who seems to express a contrary view to yours about selection. You survived yesterday but today is, as my psychiatrist always tells me, another day so I would advise you to be careful and re-read some of your posts. PM me if you want to discuss please.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Apr 2017, 6:16 am

...And last week he was being mean to the Kiwis.

by Gwlad Wed 26 Apr 2017, 6:16 am

George Carlin wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Angle of attack? I'd call it unbearable whining.

Of which you are an unparalleled expert.

on your whining i am its true, you never stop do you even now, just because Gregor snubbed the lions and your laddies didn't get selected.
Gwlad - there was some debate on the mods board yesterday about whether you deserve a short ban for your consistent following of people on Lions threads and unremitting, borderline nationalistic comments about anyone who seems to express a contrary view to yours about selection. You survived yesterday but today is, as my psychiatrist always tells me, another day so I would advise you to be careful and re-read some of your posts. PM me if you want to discuss please.

would a PM not have been more appropriate?

I'm not sure what you are trying to imply by 'borderline nationalistic', can you clarify? I can only imagine you are trying to characterize my posts in some nefarious manner which i think is pretty low, I am simply addressing the unremitting anti Welsh, anti Gatland, anti Welsh selection drivel that is being spouted left right and centre on this forum and about which the MODS do nothing.

Furthermore I am not sure how I am 'following people' on Lions threads, this is a forum and currently there are an awful lot of Lions threads, and several ridiculous anti Gatland and anti Welsh selection threads…what are you doing about those?

As far as having a contrary view, again this is a forum where people express their views. Mine is disagreed with all the time and i really dont care. Look at the numerous threads by alive and remarks by tight head and scottrf amongst others that are unbridled anti welsh vitriol and yet i am quite sure they aren't being sent red letter warnings in public.

by Guest Wed 26 Apr 2017, 7:51 am

Don't reckon Gatland is a very good coach

He's ok

by IanBru Wed 26 Apr 2017, 9:14 am

Not everything is about nations. Criticism of a coach or certain players is not the same as criticism of their nation or its people.

Just like criticism of a leader or their political party is not the same as criticism of their country... Nicola.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 26 Apr 2017, 9:24 am

IanBru wrote:Not everything is about nations. Criticism of a coach or certain players is not the same as criticism of their nation or its people.

Just like criticism of a leader or their political party is not the same as their country... Nicola.

100%

Gatland is, in my opinion, an excellent coach with a proven track record. He has made 2-3 poor decisions in this Lions selection. Overall it's a good squad.

EDIT

You see, criticism of a coach or certain players is completely separate from criticising the nation of its people.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 26 Apr 2017, 9:53 am

IanBru wrote:Not everything is about nations. Criticism of a coach or certain players is not the same as criticism of their nation or its people.

Just like criticism of a leader or their political party is not the same as criticism of their country... Nicola.

+1

Over his long tenure Gats has led Wales very well, altho he may have gone off the boil recently (as all coaches eventually do). Just not convinced you can carry over his 'Welsh' style to the Lions (except when they play a poor Oz of course - England alone white-washed them!). And 2 series in a row? - not for me.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 26 Apr 2017, 3:07 pm

Quick question: would Scotland supporters prefer to have their strongest team available against Australia, or would you want more call-ups to the Lions, no matter the effect on the strength of the Scottish touring squad?

by funnyExiledScot Wed 26 Apr 2017, 3:15 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Quick question: would Scotland supporters prefer to have their strongest team available against Australia, or would you want more call-ups to the Lions, no matter the effect on the strength of the Scottish touring squad?

A bit of a lawyer's response, but I want all Scottish players who are deserving to go on the Lions tour to go. No more no less.

by **RDW** Wed 26 Apr 2017, 3:18 pm

I also think it is about timing - if (say) Finn Russell is called up before either tour departs then fair enough. If however he is called up a few days before the Australia test and ends up just holding tackle bags while he's in NZ then it is another issue.

I'm fairly relaxed about this Australia test - I'd love to win it but won't be massively disappointed if we don't.

by Scottrf Wed 26 Apr 2017, 3:18 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Quick question: would Scotland supporters prefer to have their strongest team available against Australia, or would you want more call-ups to the Lions, no matter the effect on the strength of the Scottish touring squad?

A bit of a lawyer's response, but I want all Scottish players who are deserving to go on the Lions tour to go. No more no less.

So 2

by funnyExiledScot Wed 26 Apr 2017, 3:29 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I also think it is about timing - if (say) Finn Russell is called up before either tour departs then fair enough. If however he is called up a few days before the Australia test and ends up just holding tackle bags while he's in NZ then it is another issue.

I'm fairly relaxed about this Australia test - I'd love to win it but won't be massively disappointed if we don't.

If any of our players are needed then I'd want them to go, regardless of timing. Then again I love the Lions concept and the four rugby nations coming together and see it as the ultimate honour in NH rugby, even if it means Duncan Weir potentially squeezing into a Scotland top again.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:44 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think we deserved 5 guys to go...

J. Gray (B. Toolis)
H. Watson (J. Hardie)
F. Russell (Adam Hastings/ Peter Horne)
T. Seymour or S. Maitland
S. Hogg

In brackets above are the Scottish players who IMO would have been in a prime position to benefit from Lions call ups for Scotland and it would have helped add to our test match experience depth.

Instead we will probably head on our summer tour with a back 3 of Visser on one wing, Maitland at Fullback and possibly Kinghorn on one wing, which would be great experience for the lad.

Adam Hasting I'd like to think will get the chance to tour and get some game time, since Toonie knows what Russel can do.

by beshocked Thu 27 Apr 2017, 12:13 pm

Being picked on the Lions isn't necessary a benefit.

I can name 9 England players who went on the Lions tour in 2013 in some capacity but no longer in the Lions or England squads - Wade, 36,Manu, Barritt,Parling,Croft,Stevens,T.Youngs and Corbisiero.

9/14 not really working out is a lot.

England only have 4 who will be tourists again.

Scotland should be in better shape for 2018 6 nations without needing to worry about Lions call ups.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 12:22 pm

beshocked wrote:Being picked on the Lions isn't necessary a benefit.

I can name 9 England players who went on the Lions tour in 2013 in some capacity but no longer in the Lions or England squads - Wade, 36,Manu, Barritt,Parling,Croft,Stevens,T.Youngs and Corbisiero.

9/14 not really working out is a lot.

England only have 4 who will be tourists again.

Scotland should be in better shape for 2018 6 nations without needing to worry about Lions call ups.

Of those 9 players:

3 were late call-ups for injury, of which 2 were not even established for England.
2 were on their second lions tour already
1 was already approaching the end stage of his international career

Which leaves us with Manu, Youngs and Corbs. Two of those have been badly affected by injuries (a situation that pre-existed the Lions tour).

by bsando Tue 02 May 2017, 12:35 pm

Having had a look over some of the 6N highlights I think Scotland desperately need to focus of tightening their defence. The stats improved in attack under VC but defence has been below the standard of every other team in the top 8 of the world rankings. It was the only reason England put such a big score on Scotland really as some of those try's were just down to one missed tackle.

Under Townsend the attacking style isn't going to change much but hopefully defence will improve as this has been a key attribute to the Glasgow Warriors success (this season excluded i'd say though).

Thoughts?

by **RDW** Tue 02 May 2017, 12:47 pm

bsando wrote:Having had a look over some of the 6N highlights I think Scotland desperately need to focus of tightening their defence. The stats improved in attack under VC but defence has been below the standard of every other team in the top 8 of the world rankings. It was the only reason England put such a big score on Scotland really as some of those try's were just down to one missed tackle.

Under Townsend the attacking style isn't going to change much but hopefully defence will improve as this has been a key attribute to the Glasgow Warriors success (this season excluded i'd say though).

Thoughts?

You are right - our defence could certainly be better - but it is a difficult balance to strike. One way of having better defence is to not be as adventurous in attack but I know which one I would prefer. Not many teams are capable of regularly scoring lots of tries which also not coneding many.

That England game should hurt the players though (and Matt Taylor who is remaining) and it needs to be turned into a positive learning experience - it keeps the players grounded and gives them a real focus on how they have to improve.

by **BigGee** Sat 06 May 2017, 9:49 am

So the squad will get announced on Monday, following the 1872 cup game today. A few players in it may get their last chances to impress.

Toonie being Toonie, you just know he is going to throw a few curve balls into the equation and maybe that is no bad thing. BVC was very loyal to his squad and was generally disinclined to make changes, even when it was justified. I don't see Toonie being burdened in that fashion.

He has the chance to make a few changes to the squad, probably starting with the captain, is it time to move on from Greg? To me, we should be looking forward, so the answer to that question is probably yes, apart from anything else, I think Ali Price has now shown enough to be the starter. I would now have GL on the bench to close games out, he is I think still very valuable to the squad, but is not going to be around forever.

Who is going to be captain in Greg's absence? Johnny Gray would seem to be the obvious choice. Toonie has trusted him with the arm band for Glasgow and I imagine he will follow suit for the national team.

I wonder as well who else will get a surprise selection. As he is talkinh about this game as a trail and that he has picked Cummings in the second row for Glasgow ahead of Swinson and Big Brian is interesting. I have a feeling that he and Toolis may be playing off for a tour spot and that Cummings might win out here.

by jimbopip Sat 06 May 2017, 11:18 am

Some good points there Gee.
I wonder if Rennie has suggested to Toonie that Swinson's future at Glasgow will be as a 6. Certainly looking to the next World Cup I would expect to see Cummings in the squad: along with Grayx2, Toolis and Naughty Boy should be SQ by then(if my maths hasn't gone all Diane Abbott). Also, as we keep remarking on here, we need a SOB, POM type of ball carrier at 6 and Bluto can't play every game. Calire Baldwin can't be relied on as he's got hands like Frodos.
But, back to Cummings: he's huge, athletic and very skilful. If, and it's a very big if, he develops the way we think he may then he could be a hybrid of Jonny and Richie.

by **BigGee** Sat 06 May 2017, 12:27 pm

It will be hard to see Denton touring, he has hardly played all season.

The move to Bath really has not worked out well for him, other than in his wallet. Hard to see things improving next season either, with the other back row options they possess. If he still has any ambitions of playing international rugby, you would imagine that he would be looking for a move.

by jimbopip Sat 06 May 2017, 12:32 pm

It's always interesting how a move can affect a player; Visser has improved massively since joining the haemoglobins while Mad Mata has withered away since leaving his spiritual home. Denton is looking as if he'll fade away at Barf. He seemed to be one of the Luvvies better players; but then a professional rugby player who can't pass the ball was sure to be found out at some stage.

by **RDW** Sat 06 May 2017, 1:12 pm

jimbopip wrote:It's always interesting how a move can affect a player; Visser has improved massively since joining the haemoglobins while Mad Mata has withered away since leaving his spiritual home. Denton is looking as if he'll fade away at Barf. He seemed to be one of the Luvvies better players; but then a professional rugby player who can't pass the ball was sure to be found out at some stage.

Didn't stop Matawalu at Glasgow!

by jimbopip Sat 06 May 2017, 2:16 pm

Mad Mata's attitude to passing the ball pretty much mirrored Schiz's attitude towards passing licensed premises; he could do it, with style and aplomb, but on the whole chose not to.

by **George Carlin** Sun 07 May 2017, 7:53 am

Cummings is absolutely a prospect but completely untested at the moment.

After Gilchrist, I am stone cold about showing any enthusiasm about a Scotland tight 5 forward just because they 'look big'. Gilchrist will hopefully look just as big standing in the dole queue next year.

Absolutely awful news coming from the Youngs family. Laidlaw is a pro and will just get on with things but I wonder what he's thinking at the moment. With Frodo back in his native land, who will now travel as scrum halves on the Scotland summer tour and who will be kicking the goals?

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