The Court Jester speaks out again...

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39347452

BBC wrote:Eddie Jones says the British and Irish Lions should name four captains for the tour of New Zealand - one from each of their four national teams.

Well thank the Lord that Eddie isn't the Lions coach.

What a really stupid thing to say, showing he has no clue at all to the Lions and what will make them into a team.

The toughest thing the Lions captain has to achieve, is getting all players to pull together as Lions, and not England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland. Having 4 Captains, each the home nation captain, straight away creates cliques, and although he said you then swap the captain later in the tour depending on who's starting, at what time do you get the players to pull together and not simply form allegiances to their national captain.

Wow.. He may have delivered 2 consequtive titles for England, but he needs to learn how to put his brain in gear before putting his mouth into action. Bet the RFU are torn. One part regretting it every time he opens his mouth, the other well we have won some silverware....

His lifting cost you a place in a world cup final.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That was 4 years ago? Think Halfpenny was player of the tour.

In case you didn't realize that was a long time ago. AWJ has been captain of Wales for one of their worst 6N for a quite a while.

He's had a poor 6N by his high standards, his captaincy publicly called into question and is now out for 6 Weeks with an injury.

Alarm bells are ringing.

The 'public'/media storm were also hysterically calling for our outside half to be replaced by a youngster with religious fervour. That Biggar ended up having a very good tournament seems to be forgotten by the very same people...until the next time.

I wouldn't use public outcry as any sort of objective barometer. The two decisions he made against England were well justified.

The resulting execution was poor, but that's the end justifying the means; the laziest sort of criticism by pundits/fans with no skin in the game. The Americans call them 'Monday Morning Quarterbacks', a phrase I really like. Lots of those on this forum!

I'm not going to go over where he's a good captain, as I think he has enough experience of that to show he is one. I'll focus instead on where he's weak, and who the competition is.

The only thing his captaincy can be criticised for this 6Ns in my opinion was the Scottish kick at goal/touch, but really it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. The problem in that instance was that it rattled him enough for him to momentarily lose focus and concede a needless penalty at the resulting lineout. That's an issue of experience and confidence, as well as being to compartmentalise captaincy from performane. You have to hope he's a quick learner in this regard. Unfortunately, Chris Robshaw got hounded in much a similar way, and it came back to bite him in the RWC and his decision to kick for the corner, albeit there was a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on with the serious criticism of him there, too (although Welsh fans can mock him forever, because fairness and balance doesn't enter the equation when lampooning).

At this stage, there is literally no outstanding candidate. I'd still say Warburton is an obvious choice, as I've maintained for the last two years, to much mockery. He played very well down in NZ as Wales captain, and very well this 6Ns without the captaincy; I'm not sure not having the captaincy has actually helped all that much, other than giving him a slight mental reprieve...which he may have needed if he's to lead the Lions!

But if it isn't Warburton, Hartley has played and punched his way out of it, Best has crookedly thrown any hope he had away, and then you're not left with very much else! Laidlaw would make an excellent midweek captain in my opinion, and I said this before the tournament. However, at best, he's third choice 9, behind Webb and Murray. Injury might make that scenario more interesting. You could feasibly say both Warburton and AWJ could be first choice in their positions, both being helped by the fact that they are one of two, (two second rows, Sam at 6 or 7), rather than a solitary position, like Laidlaw.

Finally, this leads to Farrell, another 'two position player', at 10 and 12. My temptation would be to make him Vice Captain. He's obviously integral to the Test team, probably the goalkicker, and has all the right 'stuff' as a winner and driven individual. However, like Hartley (who's consciously had to tone down, and not all too successfully considering his ban), I think he's still at heart a fiery lieutenant rather than the Lions captain you want in the heat of an All Blacks Test. However, that's just me, and I could see him very easily being made Tour Captain.

But other than that, you may run AWJ down, but it's a case of who's putting their hand up? It's between AWJ, Warburton, and Farrell for me. Then comes Best and Hartley, at a push J Gray and Laidlaw, and then it's the rest, players who can fill in in the midweek games: Heaslip, Stander, O'Mahony, Murray, Sexton, Owens, Tipuric, Jon Davies, Itoje, Launchbury, Robshaw, Youngs, Barclay. None of those really come into serious consideration, perhaps some of the Irish.

miaow wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Even there Warburton doesn't trust his handling skills and is making sure he keeps his grip.

Good technique, carrying with two hands makes you more of a threat. He can safely deliver it to AWJ at the last moment without making a hash of it.

World Class trophy lifting from Sam, there. I suppose you'd expect that, though, having done it as often as he has.

He had better be careful he does not drop it and not keep control of it on the way down.


#toosoon?

munkian wrote:He flat out refused the Lions role, he should keep his opinions to himself.

Why? He's as entitled to express his views as anyone else. Just as you are entitled to get annoyed about them I guess.

Jones opted out of the Lions because he's committed to England but that doesn't mean he's not interested in the Lions. He does have a vested interest after all.

Having said all that he's probably just being mischievous as usual!

In all honesty, this particular story is a non story and not really any issue

I lost most of my respect for him after his out bursts and character assassination after the Italy game and it will take a while before he gains it again

I am sure, of course, that will keep him up to at might :-)

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That was 4 years ago? Think Halfpenny was player of the tour.

In case you didn't realize that was a long time ago. AWJ has been captain of Wales for one of their worst 6N for a quite a while.

He's had a poor 6N by his high standards, his captaincy publicly called into question and is now out for 6 Weeks with an injury.

Alarm bells are ringing.

I dont think Wales had that poor a six nations really. They lost to France and England in the dying minutes and were competitive until the end. Fine margins.

Like all teams they had at least one howler which was against Scotland. Scotland v England v Ireland v Wales.

If they had held on against England it would have meant that all teams bar Italy would have won their home games and lost their away games (except Italy away) which would have been quite an accurate reflection where all teams are at in probably the most competitive six nations of all time.

Too much has been made of AWJ's poor form. I think he has been pretty good when you compare him to his competition and I think his experience and leadership would be invaluable on this tour.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That was 4 years ago? Think Halfpenny was player of the tour.

In case you didn't realize that was a long time ago. AWJ has been captain of Wales for one of their worst 6N for a quite a while.

He's had a poor 6N by his high standards, his captaincy publicly called into question and is now out for 6 Weeks with an injury.

Alarm bells are ringing.

I dont think Wales had that poor a six nations really. They lost to France and England in the dying minutes and were competitive until the end. Fine margins.

Like all teams they had at least one howler which was against Scotland. Scotland v England v Ireland v Wales.

If they had held on against England it would have meant that all teams bar Italy would have won their home games and lost their away games (except Italy away) which would have been quite an accurate reflection where all teams are at in probably the most competitive six nations of all time.

Too much has been made of AWJ's poor form. I think he has been pretty good when you compare him to his competition and I think his experience and leadership would be invaluable on this tour.

I think you also have to look at the form over the year, and Wales have been quite poor in their internationals.

Yes, there was some close results in the 6 nations - BUT as us Scotland fans have been told for the last 10 years - it does not matter if you come close - if you lose you lost

miaow wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That was 4 years ago? Think Halfpenny was player of the tour.

In case you didn't realize that was a long time ago. AWJ has been captain of Wales for one of their worst 6N for a quite a while.

He's had a poor 6N by his high standards, his captaincy publicly called into question and is now out for 6 Weeks with an injury.

Alarm bells are ringing.

The 'public'/media storm were also hysterically calling for our outside half to be replaced by a youngster with religious fervour. That Biggar ended up having a very good tournament seems to be forgotten by the very same people...until the next time.

I wouldn't use public outcry as any sort of objective barometer. The two decisions he made against England were well justified.

The resulting execution was poor, but that's the end justifying the means; the laziest sort of criticism by pundits/fans with no skin in the game. The Americans call them 'Monday Morning Quarterbacks', a phrase I really like. Lots of those on this forum!

I'm not going to go over where he's a good captain, as I think he has enough experience of that to show he is one. I'll focus instead on where he's weak, and who the competition is.

The only thing his captaincy can be criticised for this 6Ns in my opinion was the Scottish kick at goal/touch, but really it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. The problem in that instance was that it rattled him enough for him to momentarily lose focus and concede a needless penalty at the resulting lineout. That's an issue of experience and confidence, as well as being to compartmentalise captaincy from performane. You have to hope he's a quick learner in this regard. Unfortunately, Chris Robshaw got hounded in much a similar way, and it came back to bite him in the RWC and his decision to kick for the corner, albeit there was a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on with the serious criticism of him there, too (although Welsh fans can mock him forever, because fairness and balance doesn't enter the equation when lampooning).

At this stage, there is literally no outstanding candidate. I'd still say Warburton is an obvious choice, as I've maintained for the last two years, to much mockery. He played very well down in NZ as Wales captain, and very well this 6Ns without the captaincy; I'm not sure not having the captaincy has actually helped all that much, other than giving him a slight mental reprieve...which he may have needed if he's to lead the Lions!

But if it isn't Warburton, Hartley has played and punched his way out of it, Best has crookedly thrown any hope he had away, and then you're not left with very much else! Laidlaw would make an excellent midweek captain in my opinion, and I said this before the tournament. However, at best, he's third choice 9, behind Webb and Murray. Injury might make that scenario more interesting. You could feasibly say both Warburton and AWJ could be first choice in their positions, both being helped by the fact that they are one of two, (two second rows, Sam at 6 or 7), rather than a solitary position, like Laidlaw.

Finally, this leads to Farrell, another 'two position player', at 10 and 12. My temptation would be to make him Vice Captain. He's obviously integral to the Test team, probably the goalkicker, and has all the right 'stuff' as a winner and driven individual. However, like Hartley (who's consciously had to tone down, and not all too successfully considering his ban), I think he's still at heart a fiery lieutenant rather than the Lions captain you want in the heat of an All Blacks Test. However, that's just me, and I could see him very easily being made Tour Captain.

But other than that, you may run AWJ down, but it's a case of who's putting their hand up? It's between AWJ, Warburton, and Farrell for me. Then comes Best and Hartley, at a push J Gray and Laidlaw, and then it's the rest, players who can fill in in the midweek games: Heaslip, Stander, O'Mahony, Murray, Sexton, Owens, Tipuric, Jon Davies, Itoje, Launchbury, Robshaw, Youngs, Barclay. None of those really come into serious consideration, perhaps some of the Irish.

Not from here you won't, but I think Warburton is better without the burden. It would be a move of significant chuzpat for him to name a captain that isn't Welsh.

I would personally select a tour captain, Someone like Best or POM or Laidlaw, Launchbury or someone like that. Someone that may not make the test team but someone who has the gregarious nature to bring these players from 4 different countries together.

The 2 primary Welsh candidates are AWJ who I wouldn't bring since he is now injured and Warbs, but he's better without the captaincy burden.

R!skysports wrote:


Yes, there was some close results in the 6 nations - BUT as us Scotland fans have been told for the last 10 years - it does not matter if you come close - if you lose you lost

Been reading that on here for the best part of 7 years!

R!skysports wrote:

I think you also have to look at the form over the year, and Wales have been quite poor in their internationals.

Yes, there was some close results in the 6 nations - BUT as us Scotland fans have been told for the last 10 years - it does not matter if you come close - if you lose you lost

Wales are always bad in November and raise their game in the 6N.

Yes they did lose and that is why they are 5th and rightly so. I guess the essence of the point I'm making is this year 5th actually isnt that far off 2nd because of the strength of the competition.

For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

Scotland didn't come close against England however, and are still trying to claim some moral victory. Wales' performances have proper nose-dived since Howley come in but the results have been moderate I suppose (Aus being the worst by far). The previous year Wales were better and a lot of those players haven't suddenly become sh!te.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

You forgot to mention the other common fixture - Scotland vs Wales.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

You forgot to mention the other common fixture - Scotland vs Wales.

By common fixtures I was talking the ones where they share home/away advantage. That has been the deciding factor in games in this tournament, and Scotland had an extra home game, against Wales, which proved the difference.

Of course they still have to win, and they did, but in true common fixtures Wales did better. Not suggesting they deserved to finish above Scotland or anything but wouldn't say Scotland are the better team based on this 6 Nations.

Wow - just Wow

Change the table - put Wales to the top

#Moralvictory

mikey_dragon wrote:Scotland didn't come close against England however, and are still trying to claim some moral victory. Wales' performances have proper nose-dived since Howley come in but the results have been moderate I suppose (Aus being the worst by far). The previous year Wales were better and a lot of those players haven't suddenly become sh!te.

#fakenews

Where has anyone ever said we had a moral vistory

Stop making up lies

Scottrf wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

You forgot to mention the other common fixture - Scotland vs Wales.

By common fixtures I was talking the ones where they share home/away advantage. That has been the deciding factor in games in this tournament, and Scotland had an extra home game, against Wales, which proved the difference.

Of course they still have to win, and they did, but in true common fixtures Wales did better. Not suggesting they deserved to finish above Scotland or anything but wouldn't say Scotland are the better team based on this 6 Nations.

By this logic, lets looks at vs Australia

Think we were better there.......

R!skysports wrote:By this logic, lets looks at vs Australia

Think we were better there.......

Yes, looking back further in results would probably work in Scotland's favour.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

In the common fixtures Wales and Scotland got the same result and yet Scotland beat Wales this year which ultimately separated the two teams. Yes it was in Murrayfield but it was a very comprehensive win.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

In the common fixtures Wales and Scotland got the same result and yet Scotland beat Wales this year which ultimately separated the two teams. Yes it was in Murrayfield but it was a very comprehensive win.  

Now now, don't muddy the water with results.

Here's a question, what do Ireland, Wales and Italy all have in common?

We can ignore how the fixture list was if you like, but with only England beating a non-Italy team away from home it doesn't really give a true picture. An extra home fixture is a big advantage. But of course that's how the Six Nations is and it's points on the board that counts.

Scottrf wrote:We can ignore how the fixture list was if you like, but with only England beating a non-Italy team away from home it doesn't really give a true picture. An extra home fixture is a big advantage. But of course that's how the Six Nations is and it's points on the board that counts.

6 Nations devalued when Wales lose shocker.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:We can ignore how the fixture list was if you like, but with only England beating a non-Italy team away from home it doesn't really give a true picture. An extra home fixture is a big advantage. But of course that's how the Six Nations is and it's points on the board that counts.

6 Nations devalued when Wales lose shocker.

I'm English but nice Ad Hominem.

Scottrf wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:We can ignore how the fixture list was if you like, but with only England beating a non-Italy team away from home it doesn't really give a true picture. An extra home fixture is a big advantage. But of course that's how the Six Nations is and it's points on the board that counts.

6 Nations devalued when Wales lose shocker.

I'm English but nice Ad Hominem.

I didn't say you were Welsh, merely remarking upon my surprise to hear an argument that despite beating Wales comprehensively and finishing above Wales in the table, Scotland once more find themselves as not necessarily the better team.

You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

Cyril wrote:You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

What about over the course of a tournament?

...or IRB World Rankings....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cyril wrote:You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

What about over the course of a tournament?

I think it depends. The 6 Nations is a weird tournament as there's no home and away fixtures. It's part of its quirky charm but also makes it difficult to make judgements when differences are marginal.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.

In the common fixtures Wales and Scotland got the same result and yet Scotland beat Wales this year which ultimately separated the two teams. Yes it was in Murrayfield but it was a very comprehensive win.  

Now now, don't muddy the water with results.

Here's a question, what do Ireland, Wales and Italy all have in common?

Hotblooded sexy citizens?

FFS, you have got to love this place. Firstly well done Scotland for beating us at home for the first time since 2007.

Secondly, if we are talking about this devalued nonsense, what about when everybody was saying Wales's grand slams were devalued because they came after a Lions tour or a WC ?

And last of all, FFS, how mouthy have some of the Scottish members gotten all of a sudden on here since they won a few games in the 6N instead of their usual 0 or 1 ? Lets not forget you had a record score put on you this year as well. Lets put more of these Scottish players in the Lions team so New Zealand can do the same thing.

For the first time in an age I agree with mikey_dragon, as a shiver goes down my spine:-

mikey_dragon wrote:Scotland didn't come close against England however, and are still trying to claim some moral victory. Wales' performances have proper nose-dived since Howley come in but the results have been moderate I suppose (Aus being the worst by far). The previous year Wales were better and a lot of those players haven't suddenly become sh!te.

funnyExiledScot wrote:...or IRB World Rankings....

World rankings indicate that Scotland would win at Murrayfield and Wales would win in Cardiff.

Are there really fools here who are pontificating absolute nonsense in saying Ireland aren't as good as New Zealand? It's clear that only for a batch of 'what ifs' and 'might have beens' we're probably now technically the best side in the world.
People get so jealous - allow us our time in the sun. New Zealand will be back up there one day.

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:...or IRB World Rankings....

World rankings indicate that Scotland would win at Murrayfield and Wales would win in Cardiff.

....but that Scotland are the better side (being ranked 5th rather than 8th).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:...or IRB World Rankings....

World rankings indicate that Scotland would win at Murrayfield and Wales would win in Cardiff.

....but that Scotland are the better side (being ranked 5th rather than 8th).

Go on, then. Scotland are better than Wales!

You could throw a blanket over 5th to 8th though.

LordDowlais wrote:And last of all, FFS, how mouthy have some of the Scottish members gotten all of a sudden on here since they won a few games in the 6N instead of their usual 0 or 1 ?

I am merely pointing out that we are now a better side than Wales, as evidenced by the 6 Nations table, IRB World Rankings and our latest comprehensive victory in the head to head fixture. There's not a lot in it, but it is clear.

I'm not saying Wales are rubbish, just that they are not currently as good as Scotland. I'm not saying Welsh players are rubbish either, in fact I'd go as far as to say that a combined ScotWales XV would include a pretty healthy Welsh contingent, notwithstanding a fair few slumps in form.

I wouldn't class any of this as "mouthy", certainly not by Welsh standards.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And last of all, FFS, how mouthy have some of the Scottish members gotten all of a sudden on here since they won a few games in the 6N instead of their usual 0 or 1 ?

I am merely pointing out that we are now a better side than Wales, as evidenced by the 6 Nations table, IRB World Rankings and our latest comprehensive victory in the head to head fixture. There's not a lot in it, but it is clear.

I'm not saying Wales are rubbish, just that they are not currently as good as Scotland. I'm not saying Welsh players are rubbish either, in fact I'd go as far as to say that a combined ScotWales XV would include a pretty healthy Welsh contingent, notwithstanding a fair few slumps in form.

I wouldn't class any of this as "mouthy", certainly not by Welsh standards.

I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Cyril wrote:You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

Id say if England beat NZ people would try to argue that they are better than NZ though.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And last of all, FFS, how mouthy have some of the Scottish members gotten all of a sudden on here since they won a few games in the 6N instead of their usual 0 or 1 ?

I am merely pointing out that we are now a better side than Wales, as evidenced by the 6 Nations table, IRB World Rankings and our latest comprehensive victory in the head to head fixture. There's not a lot in it, but it is clear.

I'm not saying Wales are rubbish, just that they are not currently as good as Scotland. I'm not saying Welsh players are rubbish either, in fact I'd go as far as to say that a combined ScotWales XV would include a pretty healthy Welsh contingent, notwithstanding a fair few slumps in form.

I wouldn't class any of this as "mouthy", certainly not by Welsh standards.

This plus 1

if you look back, we have not been mouthy - but tend to be quite happy that currently we have an up turn in fortunes and currently are slightly better form than Wales.

We fully admit that this has only been this year, and if Wales sort out a coach that uses their rugby players better, will be a tough fight again next year

We are also quite defensive when our wins get put into the bucket of other teams losing rather than Scotland playing any rugby - which seems to be the stock response here -

Quite possibly true guns.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And last of all, FFS, how mouthy have some of the Scottish members gotten all of a sudden on here since they won a few games in the 6N instead of their usual 0 or 1 ?

I am merely pointing out that we are now a better side than Wales, as evidenced by the 6 Nations table, IRB World Rankings and our latest comprehensive victory in the head to head fixture. There's not a lot in it, but it is clear.

I'm not saying Wales are rubbish, just that they are not currently as good as Scotland. I'm not saying Welsh players are rubbish either, in fact I'd go as far as to say that a combined ScotWales XV would include a pretty healthy Welsh contingent, notwithstanding a fair few slumps in form.

I wouldn't class any of this as "mouthy", certainly not by Welsh standards.

I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Well lovely as your honest beliefs and hypotheticals are, let's just see what happens in Cardiff next year shall we. I'll enjoy the higher ground in the meantime.

There's no doubt that Wales have the talent and players to overtake Scotland again, particularly if the Townsend gamble backfires on us and Wales find a pothole in which to hide Rob Howley.

LordDowlais wrote:I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Harsh on Howley. He won the games he'd be expected to win, and lost the ones he'd be expected to lose, and won the game that rankings would have shown as a 50/50 (Ireland).

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

Id say if England beat NZ people would try to argue that they are better than NZ though.

I don't think a one-off would do the trick, but if England won a series against New Zealand then I'd say that's a fair shout. Massive "if" though. NZ are still, for my money, comfortable on top of the tree.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Harsh on Howley. He won the games he'd be expected to win, and lost the ones he'd be expected to lose, and won the game that rankings would have shown as a 50/50 (Ireland).

I'm not sure many Welsh fans would agree that Wales would "expect to lose" against Scotland.

R!skysports wrote:We are also quite defensive when our wins get put into the bucket of other teams losing rather than Scotland playing any rugby - which seems to be the stock response here -

Examples ?

I have not seen any of this. Scotland have done well to take advantage of the other teams inability to win. Vern Cotter is twice the coach Rob Howely is, that is how you beat Wales, sheer bloody mindedness got you past Ireland, Scotland wanted it more.

Wales lost their games because as a whole they were not good enough, the players are still the same players who have been finishing 2nd mostly over the years and a few 1st places. The coaches have a lot to answer for in this respect of finishing 5th.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:You can be the better team on that particular day but not a better team overall. Nobody would argue that Ireland are a better team than NZ even though they bested them in Trumpland.

Id say if England beat NZ people would try to argue that they are better than NZ though.

I don't think a one-off would do the trick, but if England won a series against New Zealand then I'd say that's a fair shout. Massive "if" though. NZ are still, for my money, comfortable on top of the tree.

Maybe not alright, not sensible people anyway. Maybe someone funny like Cyril.

NZ just seem to be good at everything whereas all other teams have weaknesses.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Harsh on Howley. He won the games he'd be expected to win, and lost the ones he'd be expected to lose, and won the game that rankings would have shown as a 50/50 (Ireland).

I'm not sure many Welsh fans would agree that Wales would "expect to lose" against Scotland.

Rankings wise they would have been. Wales were 82.44, Scotland 80.90 - with home advantage 83.90.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I honestly beleive, that if Warren Gatland did not get offered the Lions job, then we would not be having this conversation. Normal service will resume this time next year.

Harsh on Howley. He won the games he'd be expected to win, and lost the ones he'd be expected to lose, and won the game that rankings would have shown as a 50/50 (Ireland).

won the games he's be expected to win? Italy and Ireland
lost the ones he'd be expected to lose? France, Scotland and England.
and won the game that rankings suggest was a 50/50? Georgia?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'll enjoy the higher ground in the meantime.

I do not blame you one bit for doing that. Everyone would be the same, I know I would. Let's just not get ahead of ourselves though.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'll enjoy the higher ground in the meantime.

I do not blame you one bit for doing that. Everyone would be the same, I know I would. Let's just not get ahead of ourselves though.

But that's the argument. As of the end of the 6N, they are.

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:We are also quite defensive when our wins get put into the bucket of other teams losing rather than Scotland playing any rugby - which seems to be the stock response here -

Examples ?

I have not seen any of this. Scotland have done well to take advantage of the other teams inability to win. Vern Cotter is twice the coach Rob Howely is, that is how you beat Wales, sheer bloody mindedness got you past Ireland, Scotland wanted it more.

Wales lost their games because as a whole they were not good enough, the players are still the same players who have been finishing 2nd mostly over the years and a few 1st places. The coaches have a lot to answer for in this respect of finishing 5th.

If I was Welsh Id be a bit concerned that you have only had three new caps since the RWC. Your squad is still quite young but some players have a lot of mileage on the clock? 70 caps for a 24 year old is bananas (North).