F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

by Fernando Thu 23 Mar - 11:11

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway Laugh

by Fernando Thu 23 Mar - 11:27

Mercedes & Red Bull were asked to change parts of their suspension by the FIA

The braking rule brought in for Max has been dropped and replaced with if a driver moves erratically or goes unnecessarily slowly or behaves in a manner that could endanger another driver, then he will be investigated.

T-Wings & Shark Fins to be banned for 2018

by nathan Fri 24 Mar - 6:40

After second practice looks like Mercedes still have a massive advantage unless Ferrari are sandbagging. Red Bull are even further back.

Will be interesting to see what everyone's race pace is like.

by GSC Fri 24 Mar - 9:00

Well that was a largely depressing way to start the season.

Would like to hope Ferrari were holding something back but doesn't seem likely...

by Guest Fri 24 Mar - 10:05

Naive to think a team like Mercedes would be de-stabilised by a regulation change. Appears they're still top dogs, in the hands of Lewis anyway, although Melbourne has never given a true reflection of the running order.

Honda planning major new engine upgrade, won't be ready until May/June.

by Fernando Sat 25 Mar - 6:05

Giovinazzi in for Werlhein for the weekend at Sauber

by Fernando Sat 25 Mar - 7:11

Hamilton - Pole
Vettel 0.2
Bottas 0.2
Kimi 0.8
Max 1.2

Well this is going to be fun.

by Guest Sat 25 Mar - 10:30

Vettel improved massively once they sorted out the balance & always looked like gobbling up Bottas. It was still pretty comfortable for Hamilton though.

Red Bull just aren't quick enough, unfortunately.

by harryspiv Sat 25 Mar - 12:25

I spent most of quali just marvelling in the beauty of that Toro Rosso car

Hamilton to win from Vettel barring any issues.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 26 Mar - 9:16

No comments on the race?

Cracking win from Vettel and he'll really be buoyed by that. The Ferrari seems like it is the better car in race conditions and Mercedes have some work to do. Hamilton never seemed comfortable all race and will know a tough battle lies ahead but second is no disaster. Bottas was very solid for third and suspect he could have pushed for second if allowed. Good to have F1 back but the race seems to have seen gaps concertina. Ferrari have made great strides and eradicated the gap to Mercedes but other teams such as Red Bull look to have dropped back a little. All things point to a season long Ferrari V Mercedes battle.

by Jermaine2015 Sun 26 Mar - 9:24

The finger is back, the prancing horse is back! Brilliant drive from Vettel, seemed to have the edge even when Hamilton was leading. Ferrari got their tactics and strategy spot on for once. Whether the cars are level on performance is yet to be determined, but Ferrari seems able to follow in the turbulent air without losing time and killing their tyres. Whereas Mercedes really struggle in the turbulent air.

by GSC Sun 26 Mar - 10:09

#forzaferrari

Hopefully not a one time thing since Seb shouldve won last year's opener too.

by Guest Sun 26 Mar - 10:37

Good win for Vettel & for F1 in general. Strange strategy call from Merc, putting Lewis in traffic & behind Verstappen was just an awful call. The major point is that the Merc is awful in dirty air, as soon as Bottas got behind Lewis his momentum stopped. The Red Bull is in no man's land, too good for the midfield & way behind the front two.

As for the racing, it was pretty meh. Have to wait until China to see how it unfolds. Think I might even wish the crumbly tyres back at this rate

by liverbnz Sun 26 Mar - 13:58

This 'race' does not bode well for the season does it? The new rules that were supposed to increase overtaking and racing now mean the cars can not get near each other. They were warned this would be the outcome, but went ahead anyway. As long as the cars look 'racey' right?

It will be another championship determined by strategy and luck. I'm not even sure if there is any real merit in winning a drivers championship anymore.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 26 Mar - 14:09

Well hese are the Regs that were put in place before Liberty Media took over so I didn't expect any massive changes in running order etc. That will come slowly in the next few years.

by GSC Sun 26 Mar - 14:37

Australia has never really been an overtaking hot spot anyway.

The main straights are too short and followed by medium speed corners.

Merc should be more concerned by tyre wear. That forced the early pit spot, looks like they're trailing massively there.

The much talked about theory that Rosberg could cost Merc a constructors title by being off the pace is finally coming to fruition, Valtteri well off Seb and Lewis.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 26 Mar - 14:49

GSC wrote:

The much talked about theory that Rosberg could cost Merc a constructors title by being off the pace is finally coming to fruition, Valtteri well off Seb and Lewis.

Hmm I'll wait before judging. Bottas was reeling in Hamilton quickly at a consistent rate until around 1.5 seconds behind when I'd guess he was told to hold station in the last dozen or so laps.

by GSC Sun 26 Mar - 15:39

Lewis turned the engine down when it was apparent Vettel was uncatchable apparently

by dyrewolfe Mon 27 Mar - 12:39

liverbnz wrote:This 'race' does not bode well for the season does it? The new rules that were supposed to increase overtaking and racing now mean the cars can not get near each other. They were warned this would be the outcome, but went ahead anyway. As long as the cars look 'racey' right?

It will be another championship determined by strategy and luck. I'm not even sure if there is any real merit in winning a drivers championship anymore.

Actually the new regs were primarily aimed at making the cars faster and more physically challenging to drive. Wink

There were concerns quite early on that the increased aerodynamics would make overtaking harder and that seems to be the case. Hopefully the next major regulation changes will see the introduction of under-floor aero, which will mean the wings can be made much smaller / simpler.

Have to agree though, that as a curtain-raiser it wasn't much of a spectacle. Glad I only caught the "highlights" later on. Would have been very annoyed if I'd got up early for that.

I think the main point of interest this season is that Ferrari apparently have a car that can challenge Mercedes for race wins. Hopefully Red Bull can join the party later on to make things even more interesting.

by dyrewolfe Mon 27 Mar - 13:21

Also hoping Eric Boullier writes a begging letter to Mansour Ojjeh and Mumtalakat, asking them to fund a McLaren F1 engine development team, so they can ditch Honda.

Current wisdom suggests you can only win titles if you have an in-house / works engine and that would seem to be their best shot, given the lack of interest in F1 from other potential engine suppliers.

by GSC Mon 27 Mar - 13:57

If an actual engine specialist can't bridge the gap with a 1 year deficit, how does a completely new team plan to do it down 4 years

by GSC Mon 27 Mar - 14:00

Realistically I preferred when engines were frozen and equalised. It's too big a difference maker and out of control for most teams

by dyrewolfe Wed 29 Mar - 14:58

GSC wrote:If an actual engine specialist can't bridge the gap with a 1 year deficit, how does a completely new team plan to do it down 4 years

Well Mercedes were on the button from the get-go when turbo hybrids were introduced...so there's no reason a new team couldn't get somewhere near them within 2-3 seasons.

Honda only have 3 seasons' experience designing these type of engines themselves...so they're not exactly "specialists".

If they haven't got a grip on their reliability and performance issues within 4 years, its pretty safe to assume they're never going to. Which is why McLaren would be better off setting up their own F1 engine division. They've been in the doldrums since 2009, so a couple more seasons while their in-house engine team gets up to speed wouldn't be that bad.

GSC wrote:
Realistically I preferred when engines were frozen and equalised. It's too big a difference maker and out of control for most teams

I dunno what series you were watching, but it made little difference, results-wise. The big teams still finished on top. If you freeze engine development, it just means teams will spend more on aero and other areas of development. I know it was meant to reduce costs for the smaller teams...and I suppose it did. But it did little or nothing to help them make progress up the grid.

by GSC Wed 29 Mar - 16:21

I prefer that teams success was based purely on their own work. The amount they spent is a separate issue but these days the engine is such a massive part of why you succeed. Also why Merc and Ferrari won't let their a spec engine be sold to customers.

The gap has closed but you'll get more performance from buying a better engine than designing your car.

by Guest Wed 29 Mar - 16:48

Engine superiority will always rule over aero, as it's easier to find/gain. That's why Newey said this, '1% engine power advantage is a tenth of a second, 1% aero advantage is around a tenth of a second. So if you have a engine that's 5% better, which the Mercedes is, maybe more, we have to find 5% aero (basically half a second deficit to catch up, through just our chassis). Very difficult'.

Can already write off RB this season, it's still an engine formula.

by dyrewolfe Thu 30 Mar - 14:49

Just John wrote:Engine superiority will always rule over aero, as it's easier to find/gain. That's why Newey said this, '1% engine power advantage is a tenth of a second, 1% aero advantage is around a tenth of a second. So if you have a engine that's 5% better, which the Mercedes is, maybe more, we have to find 5% aero (basically half a second deficit to catch up, through just our chassis). Very difficult'.

Can already write off RB this season, it's still an engine formula.

Well that depends on how much Mercedes still have in reserve. chin

Not too much I hope (I really am that desperate for some serious competition)

Horner says they have "significant" engine and aero upgrades planned for either Monaco or Canada, that could give them at least 0.5 sec. I think they are going to be somewhat compromised due to Newey's aero design philosophy, which is meant to give more consistent performance, more of the time, as opposed to outright performance in optimal conditions.

To give some perspective, RB were even further off Mercedes' pace, this time last season and still emerged as their closest rival.

While I'm not expecting many good races this season (if any) I am still hopeful the title races will be more interesting. Mercedes usually have a blip at some point in the season and I hope both RB and Ferrari can take advantage when they do.

GSC wrote:
I prefer that teams success was based purely on their own work. The amount they spent is a separate issue but these days the engine is such a massive part of why you succeed. Also why Merc and Ferrari won't let their a spec engine be sold to customers.

The gap has closed but you'll get more performance from buying a better engine than designing your car.

I completely take your point about engines...but you also rather reinforced my argument for building them in-house. Mercedes and Ferrari only sell lower spec units to their customers.

Why settle for a sub-par power plant, (when you're a team with McLaren's history and considerable financial backing), except as a stepping stone, until you can start building your own?

by GSC Thu 30 Mar - 15:25

Honda effectively is in house for McLaren

by Jermaine2015 Thu 30 Mar - 15:28

Haas receives the same spec engine as the works Ferrari team. That was the reason Gene Haas linked up with Ferrari. Sauber usually get the same deal but they opted for a year old engine as they could afford 2017 spec

by GSC Thu 30 Mar - 15:29

Honda are also paying McLaren very well for that privilege. Talking 9 figures if McLaren want to go that route

by GSC Thu 30 Mar - 15:31

Jermaine2015 wrote:Haas receives the same spec engine as the works Ferrari team. That was the reason Gene Haas linked up with Ferrari. Sauber usually get the same deal but they opted for a year old engine as they could afford 2017 spec

That's because Ferrari got to double the allowed wind tunnel time by also giving them their old chassis.

And even then I have my doubts it's the "a spec" engine regardless of what the rules say.

by Jermaine2015 Thu 30 Mar - 15:36

Grosjean got his Haas up on row 3 in Melbourne, that said 1.6 down on Vettel. But I don't think Haas had comparable aero

by Guest Thu 30 Mar - 16:07

Rules stated they must be given the top spec, but the customer teams like Haas, don't receive the same software/mapping packages that effectively maximise the performance & interlink all the different compartments of the engine together

by Jermaine2015 Fri 31 Mar - 13:21

Sauber set to switch to the 2017 Honda engine as early as the Bahrain GP

by dyrewolfe Fri 31 Mar - 14:04

GSC wrote:Honda effectively is in house for McLaren

Lets agree to disagree on that.

McLaren have plenty of experience in building high performance engines for their road cars. Not F1 engines obviously, but a lot of the skills will be transferable (at least as far as the V6 turbo unit goes). They only area they may be lacking is in the hybrid battery / energy recovery systems. Wouldn't have thought it would be too hard to buy in that expertise.

In any case Honda are currently proving they are not up to the task. If it isn't working, try something else...

Jermaine2015 wrote:
Sauber set to switch to the 2017 Honda engine as early as the Bahrain GP

WTF? Did someone cut their heads open and steal all their brains? Shocked

by Guest Fri 31 Mar - 14:06

Jermaine2015 wrote:Sauber set to switch to the 2017 Honda engine as early as the Bahrain GP

Not surprised, continuing to use 2016 Ferrari engines makes no sense, now unlimited engine development is allowed. Probably exploited Honda’s diminished reputation, by cutting a bargain deal for engines, so it's a no-brainer. Should fast track Honda's development too, with more data.

by dyrewolfe Fri 31 Mar - 14:08

Just John wrote:
Jermaine2015 wrote:Sauber set to switch to the 2017 Honda engine as early as the Bahrain GP

Not surprised, continuing to use 2016 Ferrari engines makes no sense, now unlimited engine development is allowed. Probably exploited Honda’s diminished reputation, by cutting a bargain deal for engines, so it's a no-brainer. Should fast track Honda's development too, with more data.

I have to admire your optimism... Laugh

Jesus, if Sauber thought they had problems before, they've just opened up a whole other can of worms...

I suppose it makes sense if they really are that strapped for cash and need to save money on engines.

by GSC Fri 31 Mar - 14:42

Bear in mind, if a team can't source engines themselves, the engine supplier supplying the fewest teams has to oblige

by Jermaine2015 Sat 1 Apr - 13:35

Looks like Sauber will wait until the 2018 season to swap to Honda power units. Ferrari won't allow Antonio Giovinazzi to race for Sauber if they ditch the scuderia's engines. Giovinazzi has now also joined Haas as their FP1 driver from Bahrain. Sauber seems to not want Wehrlein...

by Jermaine2015 Mon 3 Apr - 21:12

Giovinazzi once again steps into Wehrlein's seat for the Chinese GP...something not quite right with Wehrlein-Sauber-Ferrari-Mercedes merry go round. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ferrari have vetoed Mercedes protege driving their power unit.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 4 Apr - 18:38

Jermaine2015 wrote:Giovinazzi once again steps into Wehrlein's seat for the Chinese GP...something not quite right with Wehrlein-Sauber-Ferrari-Mercedes merry go round. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ferrari have vetoed Mercedes protege driving their power unit.

Sauber seem perfectly happy with Wehrlein. He injured his back in a big crash in an exhibition race in January and doesn't feel the back has quite healed yet. No mystery there and Sauber this week have praised him for his honesty.

by GSC Tue 4 Apr - 19:44

Drivers have driven through worse tbh. Either Pascal doesn't really want it that badly or there's legs in the Ferrari stuff

by CaledonianCraig Tue 4 Apr - 19:50

GSC wrote:Drivers have driven through worse tbh. Either Pascal doesn't really want it that badly or there's legs in the Ferrari stuff

Well Sauber must be very gullible then as they don't appear to be that of a team cheesed off with Wehrlein for any reason. Perhaps they know more than we do about the full situation?

by GSC Tue 4 Apr - 21:59

Why do Sauber care, Wehrlein comes courtesy of Mercedes, Giovinazzi Ferrari iirc

by Jermaine2015 Wed 5 Apr - 13:25

GSC wrote:Why do Sauber care, Wehrlein comes courtesy of Mercedes, Giovinazzi Ferrari iirc

Sauber have very little money. Ferrari gave them heavily discounted 2016 engines. Had Sauber had to use 2017 engines they probably would've folded

by Jermaine2015 Wed 5 Apr - 13:26

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Jermaine2015 wrote:Giovinazzi once again steps into Wehrlein's seat for the Chinese GP...something not quite right with Wehrlein-Sauber-Ferrari-Mercedes merry go round. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ferrari have vetoed Mercedes protege driving their power unit.

Sauber seem perfectly happy with Wehrlein. He injured his back in a big crash in an exhibition race in January and doesn't feel the back has quite healed yet. No mystery there and Sauber this week have praised him for his honesty.

Kimi and Bottas have been racing with back problems for many years. Wehrlein is just weak.

by GSC Wed 5 Apr - 13:29

Jermaine2015 wrote:
GSC wrote:Why do Sauber care, Wehrlein comes courtesy of Mercedes, Giovinazzi Ferrari iirc
Sauber have very little money. Ferrari gave them heavily discounted 2016 engines. Had Sauber had to use 2017 engines they probably would've folded

No I mean why would Sauber care. It's not like they're paying Wehrlein really, Merc are.

by Jermaine2015 Wed 5 Apr - 13:34

GSC wrote:
Jermaine2015 wrote:
GSC wrote:Why do Sauber care, Wehrlein comes courtesy of Mercedes, Giovinazzi Ferrari iirc
Sauber have very little money. Ferrari gave them heavily discounted 2016 engines. Had Sauber had to use 2017 engines they probably would've folded
No I mean why would Sauber care. It's not like they're paying Wehrlein really, Merc are.

Sorry my mistake I didn't understand the original post Doh

by Fernando Wed 5 Apr - 15:19

From the Honda Boss

"We did some good progress in the mono-cylinder on the dyno, but as soon as we complete the V6 engine we had many issues.

"What we achieved in mono-cylinder is at a very good level, but when we transfer exactly the same specification to the V6 engine it doesn't work. We are very disappointed. But it was too late that we noticed that – at Christmas.

"After we understand the issues this was the time we need to confirm the final specification - we needed to have some compromise.

Be round 5 or 6 before a new engine.

by CaledonianCraig Thu 6 Apr - 13:01

GSC wrote:
Jermaine2015 wrote:
GSC wrote:Why do Sauber care, Wehrlein comes courtesy of Mercedes, Giovinazzi Ferrari iirc
Sauber have very little money. Ferrari gave them heavily discounted 2016 engines. Had Sauber had to use 2017 engines they probably would've folded
No I mean why would Sauber care. It's not like they're paying Wehrlein really, Merc are.

Of course they'd care as they opted to give him a drive. However much they aren't paying him is irrelevant. The car was designed for him to suit his driving characteristics etc so having to get another driver in to drive that car is a handicap.

by GSC Thu 6 Apr - 13:17

Opted is a nice way of putting it. Like how Lotus opted for Pastor Maldonado and the Venezuelan government opted to switch their sponsorship from his former team to his new one.

And you're vastly overstating the amount of money Sauber have to spend on designing a car. They can't afford to compromise their design by designing around one of their drivers who's unlikely to be a permanent fixture. And even then Wehrlein was only cleared for Australia so it's not like hed have been fit to provide feedback.

The only time I can really remember a team overtly designing a car around 1 driver was RB and Vettel, and even then it was a happy accident Vettel could master a style Webber couldn't. Teams design the fastest car then use setup to balance a car to a specific drivers strengths.

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