F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway

[Mad for Chelsea]

Decent race. As dyrewolfe says the battle between Vettel and Verstappen for the first 15 laps was some excellent racing, and the last few laps certainly had plenty of drama. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but:
1) Vettel had to stop early to make the undercut on Verstappen work after being unable to pass him on track. Meant his tyres were older at the end.
2) His scrap with Bottas damaged them further. One wonders if it was necessary given it was likely Bottas would eventually get past on fresher, faster tyres.
3) When Raikonnen's tyre got a puncture, could Ferrari have brought Vettel in as a precaution? With Verstappen also stopping (in the end a very wise move), it wouldn't actually have cost him any positions, and (see previous points) they had reason to believe his tyres were struggling a bit.

As I said, hindsight is easy, but just pointing out that Vettel's puncture wasn't a case of pure bad luck...

Obviously Hamilton drove very well indeed, all set up by a wonderful lap in Q3. Bottas had an excellent drive, and while he benefitted from a slice of luck with Raikonnen's puncture, he was on course for a well deserved podium. Verstappen did about as best he could with a car that wasn't quite quick enough to match Ferrari and Mercedes, and as stated gave us a great scrap against Vettel in the first part of the race. Decent recovery by Ricciardo also. Lastly, a fine result for Hulkenberg.

[Born Slippy]

I don't think they would have known in time that Verstappen had stopped would they? If so, they would surely definitely have brought Vettel in. As it was, I'm guessing that they felt the odds were it would last the remaining two laps and didn't want to lose points to Verstappen.

[GSC]

Vettel had a large lockup prior to Bottas catching him as well, tyres had died. Don't think they could realistically bring him in with 2 laps to go, he and Kimi were fairly close on track iirc and priority obviously goes to the guy with a hole in his tyre. Bad luck but such is the way title battles ebb and flow.

Hope Ferrari can find some upgrades sharpish, otherwise it looks ominously like the 2nd half of the season will resemble the last 3 years

[Guest]

Pretty much expected Mercedes to out-develop Ferrari over the course of the season. Looks like the wheels are starting to come off the Ferrari challenge, and having not won since Monaco, it does appear all the momentum is with Mercedes now.

[dyrewolfe]

In fairness Ferrari have only managed to get the better of Mercedes through better pit stop strategy, or when Mercedes have had issues. Development hasn't really come into it.

I'd still expect this to be a close season. Ferraris seem rock solid in terms of reliability and have the strategic savvy to beat Mercedes on tracks where they can't dominate through pure horsepower.

On paper this should be Mercedes' season, but the races so far have shown anything can happen.

[GSC]

They were genuinely faster up until about Monaco because Merc couldn't get on top of tyre temps and Ferrari had a much more versatile car. When the Merc worked it was solidly ahead of Ferrari and now they have it working consistently.

We can only hope Ferrari nail the summer break or hopes for a competitive title battle rest on Bottas finding a level he's yet to touch.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Don't think Mercedes have 'out developed' Ferrari at all TBH. If you see where Ferrari have been successful this season(in terms of wins) Melbourne, Bahrain and Monaco. These victories came in hot weather conditions where Ferrari are easily more adaptable than Mercedes.

Mercedes recent run of 'domination' has been in Baku, Canada, Austria, Great Britain and the temperaments have been considerably cooler.

Mercedes will probably be 'dominant' in the remaining European races. But Ferrari's flexibility will see them move ahead when the fly away races return.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Renault confirm Robert Kubica will do testing at Hungary next week. Kubica takes Palmar's stop in the car

[dyrewolfe]

General gossip: Aston Martin are looking to join F1 as an engine supplier, following the next change in engine regs in 2021.

Renault MD Cyril Abiteboul has said it is "critical" that Palmer score points in Hungary...no pressure there then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40702321

[GSC]

Is anybody actually going to stop watching because the halo is in place.

[Guest]

No. Nobody likes the Halo, and people don't like change, but as with anything, people soon come around & move on. FIA can't afford not to bring this in now, if an incident occurs in the future.

Quite an interesting debate beginning about the future of F1, given the future direction of the motoring world, and the transition towards electric motor-vehicles. Going to be interesting to see if it remains the go-to formula for brands & manufactures, seeing as Porsche has quit Le Mans & will move to Formula E in 2019. Mercedes' decision to join arch-rivals Audi and BMW, as well as Renault, DS (Citroen) and Jaguar, underlines the impression that Formula E is beginning to carve a permanent place for itself in the motorsport tapestry, possibly leaving Formula 1 to question it's own identity, in the near future.

[GSC]

I dont even mind the halo to be honest. When it's designed to be part of the car it should be fine.

Formula E is a good pr exercise to be involved in if nothing else, and it's all largely positive investment. But it remains more of a prototyping/concept formula than a legitimate challenge to F1 imo.

[GSC]

Jolyon

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Palmer is an embarrassment. Sooner they sack him the better

[GSC]

Mercs are quickest on the softs but struggled to switch the supers on yesterday, RB strong around a track with little reliance on engine power. Ferraris have turned up the wick this morning.

Quali will be key around here.

[GSC]

Might be about to see the return of Di Resta. Massa cleared overnight just

[GSC]

Williams saying Massa unwell again as he retires early from P3.

Need to make a decision sharpish if they need to set the car up for DIR

[Guest]

PDR confirmed. Stroll will be nervous, although I can't see PDR being anywhere near the pace.

[GSC]

If he is though...

[GSC]

Suspect he's on a hiding to nothing though, Williams shouldn't be competitive here

[GSC]

The response Ferrari needed after Mercedes recent run as they lock out the front row with Vettel on pole.

Bottas outqualifies Hamilton after a scruffy Q3 session.

Both McLarens in the top 10, will hope for a good haul if the engines hold up. Red Bulls faded from yesterday's pace, comfortable 3rd row.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

So as said earlier on tracks where you need to work the tyres Ferrari are ahead of Mercedes. Mercedes are only 'dominant' in cool low circumstances

[GSC]

Hindsight is 20:20 but you do have to question whether it would've been prudent for Williams to give Di Resta P3 with Massa struggling then make a call before quali.

Not that it would've catapulted him up the grid but jumping in the car blind before quali and effectively starting the race with a couple of laps under your belt effectively writes off 1 car for the weekend.

And Stroll being in the other probably writes off both.

[dyrewolfe]

And so the title race takes another twist as Ferrari lock out the front row in quali. Barring any car or pit stop issues, the top 5-6 should finish as they start.

New Sauber boss Frederic Vasseur has confirmed they will be sticking with Ferrari for the foreseeable future, which means Honda will probably bow out, unless they can produce a quantum leap in performance and reliability next season.

[GSC]

All eyes on the RB garage

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

So the senior Red Bull team feeling left out what after the Toro Rossi's smashed into each at Silvetstone. Silly error by Max

[GSC]

And Max gets a 10 second penalty.

So he's managed to turn 4th/5th for the team into a sole 5th likely.

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Daniel really wasn't happy

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Ricciardo crying like a little girl. As if Max would deliberately try to crash into someone and risk a DNF

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sebastian Vettel clinched a Ferrari 1-2 in his ailing car to open up a 14 point gap. Kimi not amused

[owen10ozzy]

Kimi getting super annoyed with playing 2nd fiddle now...thats the 2nd time now that he has had the pace and has been put into a difficult position...luckily it didnt compromise his race.

Vettel seemingly struggling so good drive to keep it together and take the win.

Massive credit to Hamilton who loses an extra 3 points in the title race in order to give Bottas the position back. Could he be left to rue that come the end of the season...certainly hope not as he was clearly the faster man out of the two on the 2nd stint today.

All in all a rather dull race to go into the break but its been a much better season than the last few years on the whole up to this point.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Vettel clearly did the right thing and Hamilton the wrong thing there - Hamilton should've taken 3rd, a true champion would've done

[Guest]

Mercedes did the wrong thing, they should have allowed Hamilton to pressurise the Ferraris until the finish line. The Ferraris are focusing on Vettel while the Mercedes could lose the championship because they are allowing Hamilton to lose points to Bottas. Furthermore the more points Hamilton is behind Vettel, the more pressure is placed on Hamilton in the remaining races, and the less pressure on Vettel.

[owen10ozzy]

Damned if they do...damned if they dont. People moan about team orders and then when they ensure they are fair people say 'should have kept the team orders'...

I do agree that Ferrari have all the eggs in Vettels basket and Mercedes have to pick a side sooner or later because until they do it is going to cost Hamilton...

The flip side is...that while it costs Hamilton today it could pay dividends in the long term...we saw with Rosberg that an inter team battle can become so bitter it costs big points with run ins on track..by appeasing Bottas today he could well return the favour in a big race say if Vettel crashes out etc.

And...Lewis not a true champion now...thats a new one!

[GSC]

He had no choice but to do it, Valteri would refuse to do it the rest of the Year if he didn't

[Born Slippy]

He had no choice but to do it, Valteri would refuse to do it the rest of the Year if he didn't

No he didn't. The fact Max was right on Bothas' tail was an easy reason not to make the reverse switch. Bothas seems a decent guy and would no doubt have accepted it was too risky (caused because he wasn't quick enough to keep up with Lewis). One thing we can be sure of - Vettel wouldn't have done it. Kudos to Lewis - it may cost him the title but it was the right thing to do.

[Guest]

How many times has a team mate allowed a faster team mate to overtake ... and how many times has the team mate that overtook the slower team mate, allowed himself to be passed back before the end of the race?  Maybe zero times until today.  Hamilton was pressurised to pass Raikonnen within five laps, then was told he was given another five laps ... that changes the tactics.  Hamilton should have been given the option of biding his time to allow for the Ferrari's tyres to degrade more before mounting his attacks.  They should have told Bottas that he needed to be within say a second and half of Hamilton at the end of the race for the switch back.  Instead Bottas was clearly slower at that part of the race.  It is the team that ultimately suffers - Hamilton and Bottas are still getting paid by Mercedes no matter what the result.

[CaledonianCraig]

How many times has a team mate allowed a faster team mate to overtake ... and how many times has the team mate that overtook the slower team mate, allowed himself to be passed back before the end of the race?  Maybe zero times until today.  Hamilton was pressurised to pass Raikonnen within five laps, then was told he was given another five laps ... that changes the tactics.  Hamilton should have been given the option of biding his time to allow for the Ferrari's tyres to degrade more before mounting his attacks.  They should have told Bottas that he needed to be within say a second and half of Hamilton at the end of the race for the switch back.  Instead Bottas was clearly slower at that part of the race.  It is the team that ultimately suffers - Hamilton and Bottas are still getting paid by Mercedes no matter what the result.

And lets be honest here. If that had been Ferrari in that position (3rd and 4th) there is no way on Earth Vettel moves over for Kimi.

[dummy_half]

Teams have switched drivers round and back like this before - iirc, Torro Rosso did earlier in the season. Force India should have done the same a couple of races ago.

What this race showed is the difficulty of running cars close together in relatively high down-force setups. No doubts that Kimi and Lewis had the fastest two cars on the track for the second half of the race, but they couldn't get and stay within 1 sec of the car in front even if that car was about a second a lap slower in absolute pace. Dirty air on those front wings just leads to too much understeer.

[dyrewolfe]

Vettel clearly did the right thing and Hamilton the wrong thing there - Hamilton should've taken 3rd, a true champion would've done

No - thats what a greasy so-and-so like Vettel or Schumacher would have done.

Hamilton was a true sportsman and gentleman...that adds just as much to a person's legend and greatness as winning (thats why guys like Sir Stirling Moss are still so highly regarded).

#wintherightway

And lets be honest here. If that had been Ferrari in that position (3rd and 4th) there is no way on Earth Vettel moves over for Kimi.

Exactly! He'd have made some sort of lame excuse that Kimi was too slow, or he didn't want to risk losing a place to the Mercedes or something.


And as for Verstappen...Ricciardo had every right to criticise him, as it was a rush-of-blood-to-the-head moment. A rash stupid and needless move at that early stage of the race, that ultimately cost the team points. Max has been doing this long enough to realise that now. These aren't rookie mistakes anymore.


Best part of the race for me was Alonso's 6th place and bagging fastest lap...how the hell did he do that? Guess it proves there's not much wrong with McLaren's chassis and aero package. If only they had an engine to match...

[GSC]

Win the right way must have been introduced since Abu Dhabi then I take it.

[Guest]

... Best part of the race for me was Alonso's 6th place and bagging fastest lap...how the hell did he do that? Guess it proves there's not much wrong with McLaren's chassis and aero package. If only they had an engine to match...

Vettel must have been real slow - slowing down both Raikkonen & Hamilton.  But then Alonso still had a faster lap than Bottas & Verstappen.  As soon as McLaren get a good engine they should be be back competing very strongly.  

Was it incompetence on McLaren's part in getting to this situation?  Mercedes used to be their engine supplier but not sure what happened when Mercedes decided to run their own car - they at some point stopped supplying McLaren with their top specification engines.

[GSC]

Flip side of that is why Merc and Ferrari refused to supply RB and now McLaren. Why boost a potential rival to the level where they could beat you.

Renault asking the same questions but if McLaren broke of their Honda partnership they'd have no option.

There's also a substantial budget difference theyd have to make up in the short term until they got results to attract sponsors.

[GSC]

In this formula you really need to have a a priority deal with an engine supplier. Merc and Ferrari can design their cars around the engines, everyone else just had to deal with what's delivered.

[Fernando]

Robert Kubica has now done 74 laps (enough for a super license) with a best of 1.19.6. Not bad at all.

[Guest]

In this formula you really need to have a a priority deal with an engine supplier. Merc and Ferrari can design their cars around the engines, everyone else just had to deal with what's delivered.

I wonder why Porsche or Ford never got interested in running a team or providing engines for Formula One.  And I wonder what the thinking was for Mercedes "to go it alone" when "McLaren - Mercedes" were carrying the Mercedes brand when McLaren were competing and winning.

[GSC]

McLaren Merc were successful under the old formula when engines were largely frozen across the board. McLaren had 1 year with Button and K Mag using the Merc turbos

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Robert Kubica goes within 0.5 of Joylon Palmer's qualifying time. Must be pretty embarrassing for Palmer considering kubica has one arm and not raced in 6 years

[Fernando]

yeah that's depressing considering 1st time he's ever driven the car

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Robert Kubica did a 1.18.5 on the ultra softs(compound not used at the weekend). Also completed around double race distance. Rumours circulating that Renault will pay Palmer off to get Kubica back for Belgium. What a fairytale if it materialises

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