Hogg

by R!skysports Thu 23 Mar 2017, 1:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Seems a reasonable player. Anyone know anything about him?

by alive555 Fri 24 Mar 2017, 9:17 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
alive555 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
TJ wrote:gwalad

RBS - accenture did a load of number crunching to come up with the shortlist and loopy Liam wasn't even in the top 12 players.

He is a good player but his stats this 6 nations nowhere near Hoggs.

I'd have loopy Liam in the lions tho but on the wing

Reason being he is wasted on the wing and likes to counter on the hoof from kicks, everyone knows that but Howler.

Look i think he is a better balance than Hogg. Hogg is brilliant and has Lions experience but i think f you're NZ you're going to exploit his defensive weaknesses. Liam is nowhere near the attacking threat but we need a balanced player and i think you see the best of him from 15 not wing. He is solid under the high ball, defensively tenacious and a real threat in attack especially when receiving kicks.

According to you all Welsh players are better than Scottish .

Lets face it the only welsh back who would get into the Scottish backline is webb.

Wales can't score tries.because their backs are poop

That is a little harsh on George North. I would consider him for one of our wing spots, but then compare their latest head to head to make my final decision

He's certainly not as rounded a player as seymour or maitland.

visser also totally outplayed him.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 24 Mar 2017, 9:25 am

alive555 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
alive555 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
TJ wrote:gwalad

RBS - accenture did a load of number crunching to come up with the shortlist and loopy Liam wasn't even in the top 12 players.

He is a good player but his stats this 6 nations nowhere near Hoggs.

I'd have loopy Liam in the lions tho but on the wing

Reason being he is wasted on the wing and likes to counter on the hoof from kicks, everyone knows that but Howler.

Look i think he is a better balance than Hogg. Hogg is brilliant and has Lions experience but i think f you're NZ you're going to exploit his defensive weaknesses. Liam is nowhere near the attacking threat but we need a balanced player and i think you see the best of him from 15 not wing. He is solid under the high ball, defensively tenacious and a real threat in attack especially when receiving kicks.

According to you all Welsh players are better than Scottish .

Lets face it the only welsh back who would get into the Scottish backline is webb.

Wales can't score tries.because their backs are poop

That is a little harsh on George North. I would consider him for one of our wing spots, but then compare their latest head to head to make my final decision

He's certainly not as rounded a player as seymour or maitland.

visser also totally outplayed him.

yes I know, I thought the Ok!

finger shooting smiley made it abundantly clear where I was trying to go with my comment.

Although looking at the smileys in here I have absolutely no idea where this smiley is meant to be used... cunning

by Tattie Scones RRN Fri 24 Mar 2017, 10:01 am

Google it.

by IanBru Fri 24 Mar 2017, 10:20 am

But not at work...

by Tattie Scones RRN Fri 24 Mar 2017, 11:10 am

Unless you work at KFC.

by beshocked Fri 24 Mar 2017, 11:15 am

Still overrated but he is a good player.

by Tattie Scones RRN Fri 24 Mar 2017, 11:36 am

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by R!skysports Fri 24 Mar 2017, 11:49 am

beshocked wrote:Still overrated but he is a good player.

Is it coz he Scottish....?

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:14 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Serious question now....

Could Hogg be classed as the best FB in the world right now?

And I don't mean as a result of a public vote, but in general?

Mike Brown

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:15 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Even before the sending off watch him ram his knee into Liam Williams as Liam scores a try. Hogg was lucky that Liam didn't take issue with it.

Rugby players rough each other up, in shifty's next post the staggering revelation that water is wet!!!

If Liam Williams did it to someone you'd all be on here crying for red cards and citing's! Oh the bias is unbelievable.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:19 am

Mike Brown - in between 1/2p & Hogg.

Better attack than 1/2p better defence than Hogg. Hogg in better form than both for sure.

Hogg best in the world? Not yet needs to prove it.
Look at Charles Piatau who can't even get in the AB side & I would rate him better personally.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:41 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Even before the sending off watch him ram his knee into Liam Williams as Liam scores a try. Hogg was lucky that Liam didn't take issue with it.

Rugby players rough each other up, in shifty's next post the staggering revelation that water is wet!!!

If Liam Williams did it to someone you'd all be on here crying for red cards and citing's! Oh the bias is unbelievable.

I would like you to show me a moment when I begged a red card for anyone. Hogg deserved to be sent of for an act of grotesque stupidity 3 years ago, but what does any of that have to do with him winning player of the year?

I very rarely show bias, and do my very best to call things how I see them. You tarring everyone with the same brush is a bit of a low blow.

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:49 am

Considering the Scots have a habit of whinging about everything Welsh players get up to then it's completely fair. Examples include Williams' finger-pointing and Biggar getting taking out in the air by Russell. Anyway I'm not saying Hogg was undeserving of his award for the second year running, just trying to bring in a dose of reality (hence the Mike Brown reference Wink

).

by Engine#4 Sat 25 Mar 2017, 6:13 pm

Williams has hit players after they scored before. An elbow on Paddy Jackson springs to mind. As does a knee drop on another Irish player. He's no angel.

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Mar 2017, 8:40 pm

Engine#4 wrote:Williams has hit players after they scored before. An elbow on Paddy Jackson springs to mind. As does a knee drop on another Irish player. He's no angel.

Spectacularly missed the point, and in fact have reinforced mine. Well done.

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Mar 2017, 8:49 pm

Just seen that you're Irish. I'm assuming you're an Ulster fan too. I remember the time Trimble struck Williams in the face and got subsequently battered. The Ulster fans on here all said Williams should be banned and that Trimble didn't do no wrong laughing

. The Irish and Scots seem to have strange issues with LW, it's quite funny.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen that you're Irish. I'm assuming you're an Ulster fan too. I remember the time Trimble struck Williams in the face and got subsequently battered. The Ulster fans on here all said Williams should be banned and that Trimble didn't do no wrong . The Irish and Scots seem to have strange issues with LW, it's quite funny.

I have no issues with Williams at all. I think he's a good player who likes a bit of confrontation.

As players go I have more of an issue with Dan Biggar. Despite his abilities he is probably best described as a grass. His "oh my God" antics against France for that deliberate knock on were quite disingenuous. Equally his Begging to get Russel red carded in that infamous incident a couple of years ago is the worst kind of sportsmanship.

Trying to get a fellow player more trouble than they are already in is not very attractive. I'll include Hogg in that for his silly dive in the RWC, but thankfully he listened to uncle Nige and has not really got himself in any kind of bother since.

Lets face it though, these are pro rugby players and know exactly what they are up to. I think they owe it to each other to play the game hard, fair but within the rules.

Cliping on each other to the ref or diving to get someone else in trouble is bad, whatever nation they are from..

by Guest Sat 25 Mar 2017, 9:48 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Even before the sending off watch him ram his knee into Liam Williams as Liam scores a try. Hogg was lucky that Liam didn't take issue with it.

Rugby players rough each other up, in shifty's next post the staggering revelation that water is wet!!!

If Liam Williams did it to someone you'd all be on here crying for red cards and citing's! Oh the bias is unbelievable.

I would like you to show me a moment when I begged a red card for anyone. Hogg deserved to be sent of for an act of grotesque stupidity 3 years ago, but what does any of that have to do with him winning player of the year?

I very rarely show bias, and do my very best to call things how I see them. You tarring everyone with the same brush is a bit of a low blow.

That's the very definition of bias, surely?! Wink

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 25 Mar 2017, 10:07 pm

Griff wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Even before the sending off watch him ram his knee into Liam Williams as Liam scores a try. Hogg was lucky that Liam didn't take issue with it.

Rugby players rough each other up, in shifty's next post the staggering revelation that water is wet!!!

If Liam Williams did it to someone you'd all be on here crying for red cards and citing's! Oh the bias is unbelievable.

I would like you to show me a moment when I begged a red card for anyone. Hogg deserved to be sent of for an act of grotesque stupidity 3 years ago, but what does any of that have to do with him winning player of the year?

I very rarely show bias, and do my very best to call things how I see them. You tarring everyone with the same brush is a bit of a low blow.

That's the very definition of bias, surely?!

No, I would say bias is being selective in the use of the facts. Where calling things how the facts present themselves is a tricky thing to do. I do my very best to try and be impartial, but it's very hard, especially with some of the dross that gets posted up here!

I think everyone on here is guilty of being more favourable to their country or clubs players. However being dismissive of other posters players or choices without explanation is not fun for me. Failing to debate, compromise or seeing a different point of view kind of makes participation on a forum like this pointless.

I love the game, and want to learn more about it and learn more about the game itself. These forums help me do this.

by mikey_dragon Sun 26 Mar 2017, 9:37 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen that you're Irish. I'm assuming you're an Ulster fan too. I remember the time Trimble struck Williams in the face and got subsequently battered. The Ulster fans on here all said Williams should be banned and that Trimble didn't do no wrong . The Irish and Scots seem to have strange issues with LW, it's quite funny.

I have no issues with Williams at all. I think he's a good player who likes a bit of confrontation.

As players go I have more of an issue with Dan Biggar. Despite his abilities he is probably best described as a grass. His "oh my God" antics against France for that deliberate knock on were quite disingenuous. Equally his Begging to get Russel red carded in that infamous incident a couple of years ago is the worst kind of sportsmanship.

Trying to get a fellow player more trouble than they are already in is not very attractive. I'll include Hogg in that for his silly dive in the RWC, but thankfully he listened to uncle Nige and has not really got himself in any kind of bother since.

Lets face it though, these are pro rugby players and know exactly what they are up to. I think they owe it to each other to play the game hard, fair but within the rules.

Cliping on each other to the ref or diving to get someone else in trouble is bad, whatever nation they are from..

That's good to know. I will have to agree with you on Biggar, but he has got better. Yep he was actually worse.

On 'that' incident, Russell committed a red card offence and Biggar could have been badly hurt. I've no idea why people don't focus more on these blatant facts rather than have a whinge at a welsh player, but then again he is welsh.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 26 Mar 2017, 10:20 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen that you're Irish. I'm assuming you're an Ulster fan too. I remember the time Trimble struck Williams in the face and got subsequently battered. The Ulster fans on here all said Williams should be banned and that Trimble didn't do no wrong . The Irish and Scots seem to have strange issues with LW, it's quite funny.

I have no issues with Williams at all. I think he's a good player who likes a bit of confrontation.

As players go I have more of an issue with Dan Biggar. Despite his abilities he is probably best described as a grass. His "oh my God" antics against France for that deliberate knock on were quite disingenuous. Equally his Begging to get Russel red carded in that infamous incident a couple of years ago is the worst kind of sportsmanship.

Trying to get a fellow player more trouble than they are already in is not very attractive. I'll include Hogg in that for his silly dive in the RWC, but thankfully he listened to uncle Nige and has not really got himself in any kind of bother since.

Lets face it though, these are pro rugby players and know exactly what they are up to. I think they owe it to each other to play the game hard, fair but within the rules.

Cliping on each other to the ref or diving to get someone else in trouble is bad, whatever nation they are from..

That's good to know. I will have to agree with you on Biggar, but he has got better. Yep he was actually worse.

On 'that' incident, Russell committed a red card offence and Biggar could have been badly hurt. I've no idea why people don't focus more on these blatant facts rather than have a whinge at a welsh player, but then again he is welsh.

Could have, but wasn't. He had more than enough energy to get up and start waving his arms around like a fairy. By the letter of the law it should have been a red, but this taking a player out in the air is a difficult law to inforce because 9 times out of 10 it's always going to be an accidental collision.

I seriously doubt Russel in that incident, and Daly in his incident went out there to deliberately injure players. I know the red was brought in to try and protect players, but for me the best way to protect players would be to enforce a no jumping law.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 9:25 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen that you're Irish. I'm assuming you're an Ulster fan too. I remember the time Trimble struck Williams in the face and got subsequently battered. The Ulster fans on here all said Williams should be banned and that Trimble didn't do no wrong . The Irish and Scots seem to have strange issues with LW, it's quite funny.

I have no issues with Williams at all. I think he's a good player who likes a bit of confrontation.

As players go I have more of an issue with Dan Biggar. Despite his abilities he is probably best described as a grass. His "oh my God" antics against France for that deliberate knock on were quite disingenuous. Equally his Begging to get Russel red carded in that infamous incident a couple of years ago is the worst kind of sportsmanship.

Trying to get a fellow player more trouble than they are already in is not very attractive. I'll include Hogg in that for his silly dive in the RWC, but thankfully he listened to uncle Nige and has not really got himself in any kind of bother since.

Lets face it though, these are pro rugby players and know exactly what they are up to. I think they owe it to each other to play the game hard, fair but within the rules.

Cliping on each other to the ref or diving to get someone else in trouble is bad, whatever nation they are from..

That's good to know. I will have to agree with you on Biggar, but he has got better. Yep he was actually worse.

On 'that' incident, Russell committed a red card offence and Biggar could have been badly hurt. I've no idea why people don't focus more on these blatant facts rather than have a whinge at a welsh player, but then again he is welsh.

Could have, but wasn't. He had more than enough energy to get up and start waving his arms around like a fairy. By the letter of the law it should have been a red, but this taking a player out in the air is a difficult law to inforce because 9 times out of 10 it's always going to be an accidental collision.

I seriously doubt Russel in that incident, and Daly in his incident went out there to deliberately injure players. I know the red was brought in to try and protect players, but for me the best way to protect players would be to enforce a no jumping law.

You've risen to the bait, and now unfortunately you're talking tackle.

I'd say it's arguably better to go and take out the anger and fear that you get from being taken out in the air and landing dangerously on the referee, than it is to turn around and start laying in to the man who just took you out.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 10:36 am

Or better still let your captain speak with the ref.

by mikey_dragon Mon 27 Mar 2017, 10:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or better still let your captain speak with the ref.

Better yet just continue ignoring the kitty kat so he (hopefully) stops taking himself so seriously Rolling Eyes

.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or better still let your captain speak with the ref.

Of better still don't commit the potentially life altering and career ending penalty.

But then that's not how life works, is it?

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:02 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Or better still let your captain speak with the ref.

Better yet just continue ignoring the kitty kat so he (hopefully) stops taking himself so seriously .

Mam finally taken the child lock off the computer, has she, Saint Nige?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:04 am

I thought we were talking on appealing rather than competing in the air. As rugger said ban jumping could be a way forward but not one I'd want to see.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:13 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought we were talking on appealing rather than competing in the air. As rugger said ban jumping could be a way forward but not one I'd want to see.

I dunno, it's a weird one.

You are not allowed to jump into contact because it's dangerous why is jumping for a ball any different?

We have lifting and jumping pods at restarts now, it's madness!

I don't want to derail the thread but I personally would penalize jumpers jumping for the ball in the same way I would penalize jumping into contact. If players welfare is paramount this should be considered. As Mikey pointed out it's only a matter of time untill one of these incidents results in a serious life altering and career threatening injury. The Daly incident in the autumn is a very good recent international example but I'm sure there have been others at club level that I'm not aware of.

It would be bad enough for the injured party but it could be even worse for the offending party who may have to live with that guilt.

Put it another way, I have never seen one of these incidents where the offending player has looked at the jumper and thought "I'm going to nail you". It's almost always an accident either through misstiming or not seeing the jumper untill the last minute and causing the collision.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:20 am

Pretty much agree. Bit of a tangent but links with the general player welfare tone of general rule changes at the moment. Have to say it's become more of a priority for wr which is good and at least raises the conversation.

by mikey_dragon Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:21 am

I think it's clear to see when one is trying to compete for the ball, and when one is trying to disrupt the player catching the ball. Etzebeth once received a yellow for the latter on Halfpenny. Russell on Biggar had intended (I believe) to compete for the ball and then decided not to. Unfortunately Russell was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he decided that and it looked bad. I'm not sure if rule changes can help but more practice at competing for the high-ball should.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's clear to see when one is trying to compete for the ball, and when one is trying to disrupt the player catching the ball. Etzebeth once received a yellow for the latter on Halfpenny. Russell on Biggar had intended (I believe) to compete for the ball and then decided not to. Unfortunately Russell was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he decided that and it looked bad. I'm not sure if rule changes can help but more practice at competing for the high-ball should.

Thing is, even when it's a 50-50 and deemed a fair contest by the ref and all the armchair pundits, some of these landings look a bit rough, and far more likely to cause injury than some of the bone rattling hits you see on a daily basis in our sport.

Allowing players to keep jumping for the ball, IMO it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt badly, even if the incident that causes the injury is within the laws of the game.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought we were talking on appealing rather than competing in the air. As rugger said ban jumping could be a way forward but not one I'd want to see.

That would be a very silly proposal.

No, the game has changed, for better and for worse. Gone are the days of blatant physical abuse on the Rugby field: gouging, biting, rucking. Some might bemoan that, because at least it was "honest" in that no-one was throwing their hands up in the air like a "fairy" (homophobic taunt).

However, the collisions in the game- and the injuries, particularly relating to the head- are far more severe these days, not least because the science is only just starting to reveal the effects of professionalism, and the defecit required in providing healthcare to compensate for this rapid transformation in intensity. In an era where Rugby is the livelihood of the players, it's understandable they're extra wary of getting injured due to the impact on both their health and their ability to earn.

Now, there is a big difference between Biggar being a gobby pain in the rear when someone's knocked on, and Biggar being a gobby pain in the rear having been clattered very carelessly in what could have been a life threatening fall. It's a case of the boy who cried wolf with Biggar, but some posters really need to engage a bit of critical thinking based on what has actually happened before condemning someone.

Frankly, the game has changed. You're not going to ban challenging in the air. Why would you want to when it can be done "safely", as the rest of the game? Just as you're not going to ban other such elements of the game that could become dangerous if- and here's the key part- not properly regulated. And how do you properly regulate something?

Punishment. Retribution. We've already see it work in relation to the aerial challenges, and even with high tackles; the way coaches and players approach the game is improving safety according to the laws and severity of punishment for any transgression, irrespective of intent.

So, if individual and team punishment is clearly working as a disincentive for clumsiness in the name of competition when it comes to competing for the high ball, why are you trying to police Biggar's response? As I said, this isn't like a 'normal' penalty; if he had been gouged, or punched, or stamped on, or choked, would you also be saying "let the captain do the talking"? It's just not practical, particularly in the immediate aftermath of such an incident; you're bewildered, in a bit of shock, angry, and- as I said- frankly I think it's better for the game to take it out verbally, be it on the player or the ref, than go flying in with your fists.

As has been mentioned, it was a red card offence. Why are you complaining about his reaction, not least because the referee gave the "wrong" card? Red cards are clearly working in getting players to self regulate their dangerous/clumsy engagements in the air. Lenient sanctions don't help. Whilst player back chat in general isn't particularly welcome, I see this as a perfectly reasonable response considering the potentially devastating result of the infringement, and I dare say that Biggar will have had Hogg's cheap shot in his head going in to the game, and may well have thought there was a bit of malice in there considering how poor Russell's attempt at gathering the ball was, and whether he was right or wrong, it's not just Biggar's gobby history that colours the way we perceive certain players and teams, for right or wrong.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:31 am

You can still have fair challenges which end in bad injuries of course which is why something as extreme as banning jumping could, possibly should in some people's opinions be considered and discussed.

The thing about appealing for me is a general point; players shouldn't do it and so I'm glad we're seeing more warnings given out.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:53 am

Of course. But just as you need to differentiate between appeals, you need to differentiate between penalties. If Biggar starts mouthing off about a knock on, or whatever, by all means, reverse the offence, or move them back 10m, particularly if he becomes whiny/says anything more than "Sir, that did/didn't go forward", at which point the referee might double check if he was unsure, which is his prerogative.

However, if it's an offence like being clattered into when in the air, or stamped on, or gouged then your blood will be up, and you're going to want to explode with shock and anger, and in that sense the referees will continue to 'allow' for that in the immediate aftermath whilst still retaining a cut off point to regain discipline, with the captains once again becoming the link between players and officials.

Hard and fast rules relating to the basic facets of human nature are pretty inane, and for people who have no real understanding or empathy of the game.

In terms of the legality of the aerial contest, I see no problem with it. Just as with lifting in the lineout, how many injuries- serious or otherwise- occur relative to the number of lifts? Undoubtedly, the zero tolerance for any contact in the air between players is key to this, and is where I think the in play aerial contest could look for greater safety, however it's slightly different in terms of how high you are when lifted, relative to how high you are when jumping alone. That's why I don't feel the zero tolerance to contact works in the same way, but it's worth looking at to see how something potentially so dangerous has been made safe through regulation and good coaching and playing technique.

Almost every area of Rugby has the potential to become a situation where the players involved could be seriously injured. We ward against this through coaching, making sure there isn't a massive weight/ability disparity, and by regulating it through laws that are constantly amended to reflect an evolving game. The high ball is just such an area. We shouldn't outlaw scrums because of a tragedy like Matt Hampson's, yet we can regulate the scrums to make them safer- going away from hit has helped in recent years- whilst also looking after any players as a community to the best of our ability like Matt who are desperately unlucky in that their lives are changed as a result of an injury on the Rugby field.

As it is, we've already seen how laws relating to the shoulders vs. hips height difference has altered the attitude of players and coaches. Take a look at this video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORHXTYRdnpE

Outlawing the aerial challenge is just a reactionary and ill thought out response to the need to keep chipping away at the laws of Rugby Union. We're going forwards, not backwards, and that relates to how players talk to the referee just as much as it does the high ball.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:57 am

So what's the line that players are allowed to appeal to the ref? Are they allowed to shout? Swear? Wave their hands begging?

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 11:59 am

Shouting and swearing on a Rugby field? Whatever next...

I presume you agree with everything I wrote if that's all you got out of it?

The video's a good watch.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 12:23 pm

Shouting at swearing at the ref, you seem to find that acceptable in some circumstances where I don't. I was just trying to understand your line in the sand for it all.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 12:52 pm

You've missed the point. There is no line in the sand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 12:58 pm

Can't view it what does it show? I assumed there was a line in the sand as you said you should differentiate between offences and seem to suggest that shouting and swearing isn't something to be bothered about.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 1:09 pm

To be a little less abstract, let's get away from talking about sand. Refereeing is interpretation of an objective set of laws, but within that, at times, there is necessarily a spectrum of subjectivity, and these differ from referee to referee, from game to game, sometimes inconsistently. As such, there are many times where hard and fast rules/lines in sand just don't work in practice, where they might make sense in theory.

I think I've made my point quite clear regarding Biggar specifically, I don't see the need to reiterate it for you. It's all there in the two long comments above. I'm not going to go over several different scenarios saying what is and what isn't my idea of 'acceptable'; I think you're looking for a nice easy answer to wrap everything up in, but it doesn't work like that. You can't swear at the ref like Dylan Hartley did to Wayne Barnes, but you can shout and swear at the ref and not be immediately sent off if- say- you've just been taken out in the air. Empathetic understanding of the game.

In any case, in theory, this is a discussion about Hogg, so I won't elaborate any further. Banning anything- like the contest for the high ball- that requires a modicum of difficult, measured thought to improve is a lazy response. Hopefully you now agree with me.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 1:13 pm

Hmm. I now agree with you though jn the first post regarding it I said I wouldn't want to see it...

We'll agree to disagree on appealing though. We should continue to stamp it out of the game.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 1:26 pm

I don't want to see more of it, but I think that the dialogue between players and referees in Rugby- League included- that is then also subsequently broadcast on TV for the people watching at home is one of the most enjoyable elements of spectator sport, to be honest. In an era of professional referees, you can't expect them to command the same scholarly kind of respect they did in the old days, and in many ways- as long as they still maintain discipline and avoid becoming a bit of a joke (Steve Walsh, Ben Whitehouse trying to ape Nige's demeanour)- it's better to have a more 'human' referee for players and spectators.

Certain referees also seem to treat backchat differently. Nige seems to keep a tight grasp on things, but then will happily spend some time going over the laws/decision with the captain or player involved once the heat of the moment has gone. Garces and Poite, as two off the top of my head, seem to let a lot of the peripheral sniping comments build up over the game, but are less likely to then take the time to talk to the team in a helpful way ("I'm a referee, not a coach").

I think the officials have to adapt on the day of the game, depending on what they're faced with, in terms of how much 'lip' they're willing to put up with. I'd say it's the little sniping comments at every stoppage or breakdown (Sean O'Brien...) that are as annoying as someone like Biggar. I think the culture has changed, and just because it isn't picked up by the microphones or you don't see the histrionics, there's a lot of shouting, swearing, and suggestion going on in and around the referee in a way that is intended to influence him.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 4:21 pm

Yup and it shouldn't be tolerated. You'll quite often here the ref tell players of for swearing at each other. If it's directed at officials it's a red card.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 6:26 pm

Well that's not true, is it? You'll regularly hear a scrum half pulled over with his captain and the referee warns him not to use the line "effin hell ref!" after shouting it one too many times at a slow breakdown.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 6:53 pm

No it is true. You go up to a ref swearing at him and you'll be asked to leave. You may like to see players appealing on some pens swearing and gesticulating, I don't hence I'm happy to see pens yellows and reds to be fair.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 27 Mar 2017, 6:57 pm

I don't get the correlation between professionalism and respect for the referee. Why would/should that make a difference?

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 7:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No it is true. You go up to a ref swearing at him and you'll be asked to leave. You may like to see players appealing on some pens swearing and gesticulating, I don't hence I'm happy to see pens yellows and reds to be fair.

You've spectacularly misunderstood.

Although at least you're backing down, I suppose. First it was a red, now it's penalties, yellows, and reds.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 8:00 pm

It makes a difference because Sport is now very much a commercial business, and therefore, results matter more than ever, on and off the pitch.

The referee is no longer 'giving up his time'. The reverence in which the referee is held has changed, as has culture, which is far less authority-fearing that it was for the vast majority of amateurism, a time where our ideas of how to converse and treat officials- as players and fans- were formed.

Television cameras, replays, commentators, newspapers, all of them play a part in their dissecting of the game, and the referee's performance is just that. If we truly believed in the mantra of "what the ref sasys goes", we as fans on here would never discuss how disappointed we were at an "unfair" decision. We would never put up with a pundit critiquing a referee.

The fact is, we don't. The Sport is, and has, changed. Professionalism is a big part to do with that.

I could go on, though I'm sure you get the gist of why that has made a difference, at least.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar 2017, 8:08 pm

Round and round. Pens for any appeals. Yellow for slightly more red for swearing at the ref. Refs decisions need to respected and not have constant challenge. We don't agree I'm fine with that but I'd hate to see us go down the route of football.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 8:11 pm

You've misunderstood. I never once said this was a situation I agreed with, just that this is the way it is.

Good luck enforcing the penalty for any appeal law though.

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