British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

AWJ is a leader and well respected by his peers as well as being a former winning Lions test captain.

Lions players aren't just based on how well they did in the six nations, they are picked on how well the coaches think they will gel into the squad.

You need leaders on and off the pitch.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well, personally I think it is silly for anyone to get offended over such a question. Call me ignorant, that's fine, but some people may find watching the haka seven times on the tour to be a little tedious.

As with the haka, people should be allowed to disrespect/criticise the Koran, the Bible, or whatever they choose. Some people know and understand the Koran perfectly well and criticise the content. I'm only expanding these examples to show that nothing should be above criticism and that doesn't make the person ignorant, nasty, or a bad person.

 Dont worry about it Rory you will always find things to criticise pertaining to New Zealand rugby, we know this.

To be fair it is pretty easy

Taylorman wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Are New Zealanders inherently over sensitive and reactionary and is that why as a side they are quite ill disciplined?

What heartens me guns is that youve never been good enough to either face a haka, let alone lead one.
Ive done both and I can assure you it is about respect.
To carry on as a fan, and not a real player leaves you diminished as a commentator.
I can guarantee your countrymen will have felt nothing but respect at facing the haka at any level.
Thats because they have the understanding, the balls. You as a mere spectator dont.
So dont speak for you national side. You have nothing in common in that respect.

Have you ever met guns or is this just more arrogant, condescending tripe?
e
NZ are certainly the hard men of the internet, aren't they?

Nope, but I do know he knows nothing of the haka, its presence in the game other than someone who watches cable tv.

Here now I'm not stand here for this, we watch satellite TV over here.

The problem here seems to be that we outside New Zealand associate the haka with the All Blacks, when clearly in New Zealand it's not associated exclusively with the All Blacks, or even with rugby.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The hilarity of all of this is that the original question asked was if having the club sides perform the haka (which they don't usually do) before every game would that cheapen its appeal? Apparently that falls under the blasphemy laws.

The problem seems to be that we outside New Zealand associate the haka with the All Blacks, when clearly in New Zealand it's not associated exclusively with the All Blacks, or even with rugby.

It isnt really associated with club sides though is it? Only the Maori and the test side generally roll it out for every game.

When I think of the Haka I think of the Maori people and the All blacks.

But it's not a rugby thing at all, that's the point.

I reckon it's a fear thing

Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't

You've nailed it Luckless Pedestrian

Haka isn't a rugby thing

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But it's not a rugby thing at all, that's the point.

So what are you saying they shouldnt be allowed mix the Haka with rugby at all?

ebop wrote:I reckon it's a fear thing

Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't

Scared of a dance? Yeah I'm behind the sofa when watching Billy Elliot.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But it's not a rugby thing at all, that's the point.

So what are you saying they shouldnt be allowed mix the Haka with rugby at all?

No, I'm saying that we outside New Zealand associate it with the All Blacks and we perhaps struggle to disassociate it from the All Blacks.

ebop wrote:I reckon it's a fear thing

Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't

Id say the ABs are scared of Ireland judging on the amount of penalties and cards they give away per game lately.

Scottrf wrote:

ebop wrote:I reckon it's a fear thing

Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't

Scared of a dance? Yeah I'm behind the sofa when watching Billy Elliot.

Oh

You're not scared

Why the fuss?

"Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't"

It's not a question of being scared, it's obvious psychology - one side gets to issue a collective threat couched in aggressive gestures, which will wind them up, while the others are supposed to be passive, which will do the opposite. If they react with their own aggression, we're told they're not 'respecting' the haka. It's an obvious way of trying to achieve a psychological advantage for the ABs.

Guns, don't bring BOD into it again

ebop wrote:
Oh

You're not scared

Why the fuss?

Haven't made any.

Winzer wrote:"Scared of haka

Hopefully your players aren't"

It's not a question of being scared, it's obvious psychology - one side gets to issue a collective threat couched in aggressive gestures, which will wind them up, while the others are supposed to be passive, which will do the opposite. If they react with their own aggression, we're told they're not 'respecting' the haka.  It's an obvious way of trying to achieve a psychological advantage for the ABs.  

Maybe you are right maybe you arent. I dont buy it. I see the Haka as a novelty a bit of pageantry that adds to the atmosphere and not a lot more.

I dont think the Ireland team need any extra motivation when playing the ABs nor should they.

That's right guns

1 and counting

Winzer makes a fair point

But hopefully players facing the haka are thinking "I'm going to rip this guy a new A-hole" whilst standing there

That's what's going on right?

I tend to think 'this is embarrassing, can't wait for the rugby to start'. YMMV.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem here seems to be that we outside New Zealand associate the haka with the All Blacks, when clearly in New Zealand it's not associated exclusively with the All Blacks, or even with rugby.

But it is being discussed in the context of rugby. It is a traditional war dance and technically has no place on the rugby field whatsoever, so it doesn't deserve any special rights. However, its use in rugby is really just a form of entertainment that has become a part of the international game. We shouldn't overdo it, nor dictate to others how they should respond to it. As said above, if a team doesn't just stand there, they are told off for being disrespectful.

I would find watching 7 hakas on the tour a bit tedious and unnecessary, personally. Others may enjoy it. I do enjoy watching it the few times we get to play against the All Blacks.

I think the problem is that the Haka has been used in test match rugby:

1. For public entertainment – it has achieved cult status amount the occasional northern hemisphere rugby fans, who will turn up for an international match to watch the Haka and then have very little interest in the match itself.

2. As an All Black tool to gain an advantage against opposition teams.

Its adoption by the All Blacks seems to have little to do with tradition, or respect of Maori heritage.  What further grates is that if any opponents “dare” to respond to it in any way -other than stand there like a dummy – is for All Blacks players and fans to foam at the mouth and claim disrespect, as happened when Wales refused to move first in 2008, Ireland’s slow advance in 2013, Cockerill’s tongue response in 1997, etc.

Let’s be honest, the All Blacks are largely a bunch of European heritage/non Maori south sea islander heritage rugby players, which makes the cry of racism or stupidity if anyone voices any objections particularly annoying.  At the risk of seeming flippant, what percentage of the current All Black squad are of Maori heritage?  How many All Black coaches with Maori heritage have there been?

I for one would be happy not to see the ‘pantomime’ performed – and that is no disrespect to the Haka.

I can accept that the haka is worthy of respect but I don't think the lines are so clear cut on how it should be used and viewed.

For instance, here's a Mongrel Mob haka at the funeral of Ike Miringaorang.



A lot of old school Mob members like Ike tend to get remembered nowadays as upright pillars of the community but there are far more members who don't deserve that respect.

If it's seen as appropriate for a gang of violent drug dealers to perform a haka - not as individuals, but specifically as the Mongrel Mob - then you can perhaps understand how those of us outside New Zealand might get confused about what status it is supposed to have.

Mob clubhouses are full of swastikas and other Nazi symbolism (pall bearer in that video has "sieg sieg" on his shirt). I suspect Ben Cohen would have found it curious if someone had told him that, while also saying the haka is a legitimate part of Mongrel Mob society.

It definitely added to the occasion from a spectator point of view when matches against NZ were a rarity, and it's moved from being quite embarrassing and clumsy in the 60s to pretty good now. The throat-slitting was going a bit far, mind.

I would fancy an English- and Irish-based pack, which is basically what we'll have, not to be too intimidated by it.

Ben Cohen didnt consider himself Jewish though. His Jewish heritage went a few generations back I think.

NZers have a tough exterior which is all bluff and bravado bt they have very very thin skins and very very sensitive tummies

NZers are obsessed with 'rispict' and the 'haka' which is an adulterated dance they have hijacked for rugby is a perfect example of just how seriously they take themselves and how they expect to be treated differently as if they walk on hallowed ground.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The hilarity of all of this is that the original question asked was if having the club sides perform the haka (which they don't usually do) before every game would that cheapen its appeal? Apparently that falls under the blasphemy laws.

The problem seems to be that we outside New Zealand associate the haka with the All Blacks, when clearly in New Zealand it's not associated exclusively with the All Blacks, or even with rugby.

It isnt really associated with club sides though is it? Only the Maori and the test side generally roll it out for every game.

When I think of the Haka I think of the Maori people and the All blacks.

 Hakas are performed every Saturday afternoon prior to Rugby matches the length of the Country, most commonly at Secondary Schools Ist XV games, where culture is an ingredient in ones Rugby education. 

 The clip below is of two teams each doing a Haka, Warren Gatlands old 1stXv (Hamilton) versus Dylan Hartleys old 1stXV (Rotorua).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvtKTuGkRI0

Rugby Fan wrote:I can accept that the haka is worthy of respect but I don't think the lines are so clear cut on how it should be used and viewed.

For instance, here's a Mongrel Mob haka at the funeral of Ike Miringaorang.



A lot of old school Mob members like Ike tend to get remembered nowadays as upright pillars of the community but there are far more members who don't deserve that respect.

If it's seen as appropriate for a gang of violent drug dealers to perform a haka - not as individuals, but specifically as the Mongrel Mob - then you can perhaps understand how those of us outside New Zealand might get confused about what status it is supposed to have.

Mob clubhouses are full of swastikas and other Nazi symbolism (pall bearer in that video has "sieg sieg" on his shirt). I suspect Ben Cohen would have found it curious if someone had told him that, while also saying the haka is a legitimate part of Mongrel Mob society.

No you're right it's not used consistently and has become a bit of a free for all. It got a bit silly at one games where it would pop up, often a bit poorly around the pools, stadiums etc, anywhere something, not even Gold medals were being received.

It's most common and traditional use in sport however is definitely the All Blacks and in schools.

Here's a recent one where the schools get behind their first xv. It's done and received respectfully by both sides and afterwards everyone just gets on with it. It reflects a strong sense of unity...it takes a lot of hours to practice these routines...but it also reflects the respect of the opposition, who both, happily and respectfully, accept the challenge.

In non NZ sides the lack of reciprocating in some way causes, mainly fans, to gain a perception of a disadvantage, where the players facing it are likely schooled up appropriately on its meaning if they're properly organised.

The other things opposition fans make the mistake of is associating the haka with the success of the ABs, so throw it into the quagmire of the usual anti AB rants of over aggression, McCaws cheating, Ref bias etc.

Yet the other pacific nations all do it, yet because of their results fans don't complain of it so vehemently. So in that regard there is definitely an ignorance.

And it's ok to complain about it, though I see that as an insecurity of ones own identity, the inability to accept what others find passionate about. But there you go. It is what it is.

If not for the ABs people mostly wouldn't give a toss about the haka.

"Yeah, it's fine to have your own opinion on the haka, but it does make you a bad person".

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The hilarity of all of this is that the original question asked was if having the club sides perform the haka (which they don't usually do) before every game would that cheapen its appeal? Apparently that falls under the blasphemy laws.

The problem seems to be that we outside New Zealand associate the haka with the All Blacks, when clearly in New Zealand it's not associated exclusively with the All Blacks, or even with rugby.

It isnt really associated with club sides though is it? Only the Maori and the test side generally roll it out for every game.

When I think of the Haka I think of the Maori people and the All blacks.

 Hakas are performed every Saturday afternoon prior to Rugby matches the length of the Country, most commonly at Secondary Schools Ist XV games, where culture is an ingredient in ones Rugby education. 

 The clip below is of two teams each doing a Haka, Warren Gatlands old 1stXv (Hamilton) versus Dylan Hartleys old 1stXV (Rotorua).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvtKTuGkRI0

#Nurturingmyrugbyballs

It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

I bet you wrote the above with a condescending smirk on your face. Hope you feel better. Now, can you please tell us a joke?

The Great Aukster wrote:It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

What an odd post. The Hakas now about money?

Very strange wasn't it

There's been a few posts attacking NZ lately

Very poor form

Good win for your boys today Tman, took the foot off the pedal, but were in control

The Great Aukster wrote:It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

Cultural appropriation at its very worst.

avatar
Yesterday at 12:41 am
by ebop
Guns, don't bring BOD into it again

Now you mention it Ebop, why not? Since TU and KM got away with murder almost I think I'll bring it up until the end of time or an apology or are you claiming some sort of haka privilege. Omertà?

The Great Aukster wrote:It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

 You have to realise that that you are imposing Anglo Saxon practise to another culture on the opposite side of the World. The word is "Koha" by chance it does at times have similar outcomes as "Royalties".

 Perhaps the ABs arent as hypocritical as you are advocating.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

 You have to realise that that you are imposing Anglo Saxon practise to another culture on the opposite side of the World. The word is "Koha" by chance it does at times have similar outcomes as "Royalties".

 Perhaps the ABs arent as hypocritical as you are advocating.

For some reason Auksters always had a particular thing about the haka. Hates it with a passion. A pointless and futile exercise to oppose it's use or meaning. So long may it frustrate.

New Zealand was one of the last places on earth to be discovered by white man, When The English had perfected a working legislature which we now call the  Westminster system and had already written volumes of case law as evidenced in the All England law report reprint.

 Meanwhile 10,000 miles away the Maori were busy engaging in Hakas, tribal war and cannibalism.

 In the year 2017 surely we can look back and take the good parts out of history, and not forget the bad parts.

Btw. I always thought the original message of the Haka is salvation rather than aggression as in when the fugitive Maori fearing discovery and death is revealed by the sun and not his enemies. Kia ora!

Taylorman wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's amazing in this pc world that the glorification of violence is celebrated by the haka. The all pervasive nature of it in NZ society (as shown above) goes a long way to explain why New Zealanders have no sense of humour - when leisure activities celebrate death, the serious aspects of life are obviously no laughing matter.

What is hypocritical of the ABs though is that they pay no royalties to perform the haka. Surely they should donate say 10,000 dollars to the Maori culture every time they perform their dance - in that way it would mean a lot more to everyone.

 You have to realise that that you are imposing Anglo Saxon practise to another culture on the opposite side of the World. The word is "Koha" by chance it does at times have similar outcomes as "Royalties".

 Perhaps the ABs arent as hypocritical as you are advocating.

For some reason Auksters always had a particular thing about the haka. Hates it with a passion. A pointless and futile exercise to oppose it's use or meaning. So long may it frustrate.

He's also passionately anti-Lions too so a Lions tour to NZ is always going to bring out his negative side!

Ben Youngs has pulled out for family reasons.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Youngs has pulled out for family reasons.

Just heard that. A very noble and touching reason for pulling out too (to spend time with his terminally ill sister in law. "Time left together is precious" )

That is truly awful - respect to Ben Youngs and thoughts with the whole family.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is truly awful - respect to Ben Youngs and thoughts with the whole family.

We all get very excited about our sport, but this puts it into some kind of perspective.

Our thoughts are with all of them.

At times like this, I just want to hold my kids close. Words can never be enough to express the profound feeling of sadness.

Don't have the words. Just feel for tom.

Thoughts are with their family. Terrible news.

Sometimes there are far more important things than the Haka, Rugby, Lions, etc.

Just no words really. 100% respect to Ben for his decision re the Lions. Thoughts with him, Tom and their entire family.