British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

Do we really need another thread?

I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

The numbers selected for the tour reflect the 6N table as it finished and how I feel the teams performed throughout. England obviously worthy champions and worthy winners hence they provide the bulk of the team. Ireland's strong showing against England, France and Italy was build from their powerful back row and set piece hence they provide a lot of the forwards. Scotland's backs were outstanding, scoring more tries against their Lions peers than any of the other Lions countries hence Scotland provides the strike runners, and Wales, despite having a disappointing tournament provide key players in key areas who performed really well.

43, is a big squad and 6 players more than I feel Gatland would take, but this is who I'd take. The schedule is verging on ridiculous and injuries are inevitable. Hence I'd take a bigger squad so that the player have more time together for training, banter and bonding. These players will have to play for each other if we are to emerge victorious and the best way to do that is anticipate the injury cover required, take a bigger squad, so that noone comes in as an outsider.

Loosie
Marler - Vunipola - McGrath
This for me is one of the easier positions to pick. Marler's scrummaging is very strong, and Mako is I think one of the best loosehead props in the world. His play in the loose is better than some gym monkey centres and McGrath hasn't taken a backward step all tournament.

Hooker
Owens - George - Best
Ken Owens has been one of Wales' most consistent and best performing players. Jamie George is a fantastic player too. Best had a inconsistent tournament but he would be a well respected tourist and IMO a key member of the leadership group.

Tighthead
Furlong -  Cole - Francis
Furlong is an incredible player and has been the a cornerstone of Ireland's terrific performances against France and England. Cole is already a Lions tourist and although starting slowly had a great 6N. Francis is another who was part of a very strong Welsh front row who apart from the last 20 minutes in Paris had a very strong showing against a powerful French set piece.

Lock
Lawes - Launchberry - Henderson - Gray Brothers - Charteris
This was by some distance the hardest area to trim down. Not picking AWJ was the toughest decision to make. Despite poking fun at "kickgate" (I hate the suffix gate being used but couldn't resist) he is a great captain and would be another key member of the Lions leadership group if not the captain. However a shoulder injury is one of the worst injuries for any player to have, in particular a lock. Doctors say only 6 weeks, but shoulder injuries linger, and this tour will be brutal and I wouldn't want to risk bringing a player who is already carrying a niggle. Lawes and Launchberry have been immense Lawes finally seems to have developed into a very powerful and extremely dynamic player who always gives his all. Launchberry was Englands best and most consistent player all tournament. Henderson also had a great tournament and was a nuisance in every game he played. Charteris lineout and maul disruption prowess is what made me pick him. I also selected both Gray brothers Richie's time at Toulouse seems to have developed him into a more rounded player and despite Johnny playing better at the start of the 6N tournament I feel Richie finished stronger and I was disapointed he couldn't get over his dead leg to play against Italy. Johnny Gray continued his impressive dirty work by making a whopping 87 tackles in the tournament and missing only 3. He also made 26 tackles against Ireland. 26!

Backrow
Warburton - Moriarty -  Stander - O'Mahony - O'Brien - Watson - Vunipola - Itoje
Warburton used this 6N to silence his critics. He was incredible. Tipuric had a good tournament but it was Warb's work at the breakdown, his powerful carries that kept Wales moving forward and he had a terrific turnover rate. Moriarty's physicality was very notable, particularly in the England game, he's also carried very well. POM, his performances beg the question why he didn't start more games. Those of us who are familiar with the Pro12 see a lot of POM and he is an amazing player. Stander = A Bank safe on legs and O'Brien had a good tournament from the openside. Watson was Scotland's standout player in the Forwards, I've used a few stats here his tackle complation is up there with the best tacklers in the 6N. In the Ireland game he was on for only 50 minutes. He made 17 tackles and missed 0. However the stat I like best about Watson is the clean breaks 0, defenders beaten 11. Billy V, do I need to justify this pick? And Itoje, I feel he didn't have a great tournament, the Ireland game in particular showed him up a bit to be a little bit of a hot head. As has been discussed on other threads, another ref might have binned him for such antics. However he is an amazing athlete and I picked him in the backrow selection knowing he can play lock if neccesary.

Scrum Half
Webb - Murray - Youngs
Webb and Murray are the obvious choices, I would have picked Laidlaw if I could, citing he'd be a good tourist and another member of the leadership team, but as with AWJ, there is no room for niggly injuries on this tour.

Stand Off
Ford - Sexton - Russel
Again Ford had a good tournament and Sexton was an absolute warrior. Both will tour and I would anticipate if they stay injury free will start the tests. I also picked Russell. I know he had a bad game against England and the pressure influenced his decision making. However the ability to conjure something from absolutely nothing is a trait that will be very useful on this tour, even if it is only used in the midweek games. It's no conicidence that when Russel plays well, Scotland play well. Scotland's dangerous and predatory offence is all built of Russel's passing, positioning vision and guts. All attributes that will serve the Lions well.

Centre
Farrell - JJ - Teo Ringrose - Henshaw - Payne - Dunbar
A very Irish/English heavy centre combination. This reflects how they played in the tournament. Wales we horrendously blunt, if fairly stout defensively. However England and Ireland made good tries especially in the centre and defended well to boot. Farrell will be another key member of the leadership team and I would imagine could and should start the tests at 12, he and Sexton will marshall a strong defence. Dunbar is a contraversial pick. Despite some brilliant 1st phase play by England to make the Scottish centreline look daft, Dunbar had a very strong tournament. He carried well and Scored the most Turnovers by a player who wasn't a Forward. Also lineout completion rate 100%   Payne also had a great cameo from Full back against England, but I picked him in the centre because I've seen him play well there for Ulster. JD2 and Williams miss out, they have to take a bit of flack for faling to get the Welsh backline firing and scoring tries.

Wingers
Seymour - Visser - Nowell - Daly - North
Had to make room for Seymour and Visser. Both had very strong tournaments, are excellent in the air and defended their channels well. Nowell and Daly also had very good tournaments. The fact that Daly can move into outside centre means he gets the nod too. North was embarrased a bit by Visser, but he came roaring back to life against Ireland. It's a shame Wales didn't get the ball to him more often against France or they might have won the match.

Fullback
Hogg - Williams
Player of the tournament and Wales' best attacking threat, easy.

It's tough to do this and stay neutral, I've done my best and I expect I'll get criticised. however before you mount a critical comment, it would be nice to see people do this and do it properly. Don't just pick who you think Gatland would pick or pick the same numbers you think he'd pick.

I want to know who you guys would pick, how many you would take. Also it would be nice to know why you picked who you picked and why you did not pick others. Anyone can post a list of names, but it would be nice to have a grown up Lions debate with posters on here who would like to see them win a test series for once!

Great post Radge. Balanced and well thought out.

Which means it'll get poo poo'd by the usual cretins.

That is a fine piece of work Radge. As you note it's a chunky squad - I'd seek to take 38 (two XVs and a bench) - so here's who I would prune:

Ritchie Gray - you have plenty options at lock in the squad and good as he was in the 6 Nations, he doesn't make it for me money.

Hamish Watson - as an Edinburgh/Scotland fan this hurts, but he doesn't go ahead of Warburton and SOB for my money, and I don't think Gatland will take three opensides. He had a great tournament though.

Payne - nice skillset and can play a few positions but I don't need his ability to cover 15 in my squad and there are better centres. Elliot Daly is my Mr Versatility, and I don't need two.

Teo - I've not yet seen enough from him to convince me he's a Lion. Some nice impact sub cameos are all good and well, but I would have wanted more 80 minutes performances. He's still green, internationally speaking.

Visser - good return to form during the 6 Nations but it is a relatively recent return. I still have concerns about his defence, particularly one on one, and NZ isn't the place to be struggling defensively.

In terms of swaps thereafter, I don't have that many. If Kruis can prove himself fit between now and the end of the season then I'd consider him ahead of Charteris. I think Hartley will go ahead of George. I think JD2 will go ahead of Dunbar. I'd be comfortable with those changes as well, albeit not a lot in them.

Ruggerradge good list in general though I can't see either Tipuric or AWJ missing out.

Agree with that FES mostly.

I'd take a fit Watson as he covers both FB and wing.

Ruggerradge you have far too much time on your hands!

TightHEAD wrote:I'd take a fit Watson as he covers both FB and wing.

Ruggerradge you have far too much time on your hands!

That's a good shout, perhaps Watson ahead of Nowell.

I think Sinkler will go, the 3rd tighthead spot between Cole or Nel.

chris_501 wrote:I think Sinkler will go, the 3rd tighthead spot between Cole or Nel.

I think it's pretty clear that Furlong and Cole will go, and I suspect the debate over the third tighthead will be fairly interesting. You have Lee and Francis in Wales, both pretty decent, Sinckler in England who is a very useful impact sub and two options north of the border in Nel and Fagerson. I think the tour is too soon for Fagerson and Nel won't make it due to injury. I think Radge probably has it right with Francis, although I don't think too many would complain if Sinckler was picked.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:43, is a big squad and 6 players more than I feel Gatland would take, but this is who I'd take.

I feel it's hard to argue for too many people not already included in your squad, but your squad is big, and I think it's unrealistic.

It does show that there will be some very tough calls and some good players to miss out.

Off the top of my head from an English perspective you've omitted Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Robshaw, Watson and Brown. Now I'm not saying for one second that all or even any of them should go, but they would all be personally disappointed if they missed out, and I'm sure there are others from other countries who would feel similar (Healy, Nel, Alun-Wyn Jones, Tipuric, Faletau, Laidlaw, Biggar, Davies, Kearney etc).

If we thought the number of Lions threads was heavy, I predict the board will drown in "alternate Lions XV" after the squad announcement, slotting in all the best players not to make it into Gatland's squad.

God I hope Teo isnt picked. He is just a poor mans Jamie Roberts who I also hope isnt picked.

robbo277 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:43, is a big squad and 6 players more than I feel Gatland would take, but this is who I'd take.

I feel it's hard to argue for too many people not already included in your squad, but your squad is big, and I think it's unrealistic.

It does show that there will be some very tough calls and some good players to miss out.

Off the top of my head from an English perspective you've omitted Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Robshaw, Watson and Brown. Now I'm not saying for one second that all or even any of them should go, but they would all be personally disappointed if they missed out, and I'm sure there are others from other countries who would feel similar (Healy, Nel, Alun-Wyn Jones, Tipuric, Faletau, Laidlaw, Biggar, Davies, Kearney etc).

If we thought the number of Lions threads was heavy, I predict the board will drown in "alternate Lions XV" after the squad announcement, slotting in all the best players not to make it into Gatland's squad.

Brown may well be disappointed but he shouldn't be. He'd be well down my pecking order at 15. Two years ago he'd have made it (possibly as a starter), but form has not been his friend (relative to Hogg and Williams).

I agree with you though, the "alternative Lions XV" will look pretty strong this time around I suspect.

12 IMO isn't a position of strength though.

robbo277 Hartley had just one good game in the 6 nations and leadership wise was missing in action.

Sinckler still needs to establish himself. Brown had a poor 6 nations, still doesn't understand that he needs to pass the ball. Robshaw and Kruis missed the 6 nations so could miss out for that reason. Watson injured for most of 6 nations and hapless vs Ireland.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Radge, that's a great post. Well thought out. I wouldn't argue with any of that. Maybe some 50/50s that I might go in a different direction but very similar to what I would pick. Looking purely at the Welsh contingent (most of us if honest will look to see how many of our own are in the side) most decent Welsh posters on here have gone for similar players and a around 8-10 Welshmen. I think that's about fair.

In terms of squad size, playing so many games in such a short space of time I think we'll need a big squad so have no issues with 40+. A smaller squad may mean players absolutely flogged and playing possibly 3 times in 7 days, which would be unacceptable for me.

beshocked wrote:12 IMO isn't a position of strength though.

This is true, but Teo still doesn't make it for me. I think 12 is a straight shoot between Farrell and Henshaw, with Joseph nailed on at 13. I'd also take JD2 (who can play 12 if needed) and Daly. Other options would be Scott Williams, Gary Ringrose and Alex Dunbar, but I don't think they'll go. Teo would be behind all of that lot.

Still, we are not blessed at 12. There's no Gibbs or Greenwood pulling down trees.

Sorry, just to add: I personally would go AWJ over Charteris. And I would not take Tomos Francis, or any of the Welsh props for that matter. Moriaty - I think it's a season or two too soon for him. He's just becoming established, but is still a bit 'raw' for me. Tipuric would be my Welsh swap if pressed on it. I'd probably have 1/2p as a tourist (not necessarily a starter) but a tourist as a solid, if unspectacular, fullback. But I do understand that there's better/more flashy fullbacks out there.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:43, is a big squad and 6 players more than I feel Gatland would take, but this is who I'd take.

I feel it's hard to argue for too many people not already included in your squad, but your squad is big, and I think it's unrealistic.

It does show that there will be some very tough calls and some good players to miss out.

Off the top of my head from an English perspective you've omitted Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Robshaw, Watson and Brown. Now I'm not saying for one second that all or even any of them should go, but they would all be personally disappointed if they missed out, and I'm sure there are others from other countries who would feel similar (Healy, Nel, Alun-Wyn Jones, Tipuric, Faletau, Laidlaw, Biggar, Davies, Kearney etc).

If we thought the number of Lions threads was heavy, I predict the board will drown in "alternate Lions XV" after the squad announcement, slotting in all the best players not to make it into Gatland's squad.

Brown may well be disappointed but he shouldn't be. He'd be well down my pecking order at 15. Two years ago he'd have made it (possibly as a starter), but form has not been his friend (relative to Hogg and Williams).

I agree with you though, the "alternative Lions XV" will look pretty strong this time around I suspect.

He might not deserve a spot at 15 on merit, but he played wing up until Six Nations 2013 and rightly didn't make the Lions tour. Afterwards, he switched to full-back and was one of the best full-backs in these 4 countries, if not Europe.

If not selected, the disappointment will probably be the timing of it, firstly that he didn't get a shot at fullback for England pre-2013 and that his form didn't hold out this time around, not that he was harshly treated by Gatland.

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:43, is a big squad and 6 players more than I feel Gatland would take, but this is who I'd take.

I feel it's hard to argue for too many people not already included in your squad, but your squad is big, and I think it's unrealistic.

It does show that there will be some very tough calls and some good players to miss out.

Off the top of my head from an English perspective you've omitted Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Robshaw, Watson and Brown. Now I'm not saying for one second that all or even any of them should go, but they would all be personally disappointed if they missed out, and I'm sure there are others from other countries who would feel similar (Healy, Nel, Alun-Wyn Jones, Tipuric, Faletau, Laidlaw, Biggar, Davies, Kearney etc).

If we thought the number of Lions threads was heavy, I predict the board will drown in "alternate Lions XV" after the squad announcement, slotting in all the best players not to make it into Gatland's squad.

Brown may well be disappointed but he shouldn't be. He'd be well down my pecking order at 15. Two years ago he'd have made it (possibly as a starter), but form has not been his friend (relative to Hogg and Williams).

I agree with you though, the "alternative Lions XV" will look pretty strong this time around I suspect.

He might not deserve a spot at 15 on merit, but he played wing up until Six Nations 2013 and rightly didn't make the Lions tour. Afterwards, he switched to full-back and was one of the best full-backs in these 4 countries, if not Europe.

If not selected, the disappointment will probably be the timing of it, firstly that he didn't get a shot at fullback for England pre-2013 and that his form didn't hold out this time around, not that he was harshly treated by Gatland.

Agreed. As I said, Brown would probably start at 15 were this Lions tour in 2015. Now I'd say he's well behind Hogg and Williams, and I don't think Gatland will pick a 3rd specialist at 15.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:12 IMO isn't a position of strength though.

This is true, but Teo still doesn't make it for me. I think 12 is a straight shoot between Farrell and Henshaw, with Joseph nailed on at 13. I'd also take JD2 (who can play 12 if needed) and Daly. Other options would be Scott Williams, Gary Ringrose and Alex Dunbar, but I don't think they'll go. Teo would be behind all of that lot.

Still, we are not blessed at 12. There's no Gibbs or Greenwood pulling down trees.

Centre and 12 seems to be quite weak across the board. It's a big problem in Wales. We're playing Scott Williams there but he's often played 13 at club level. There's no-one to take over from Jamie Roberts now that he's getting on a bit and the game has moved away from the crash ball centre (which he's less and less effective at). Is Farrell not an option there? Or have I miss that discussion further up?

I really like the look of that Huw Jones. OK, defence seemed suspect against England but he scored 2 nice tries. Is he an out and out 13?

beshocked wrote:12 IMO isn't a position of strength though.

robbo277 Hartley had just one good game in the 6 nations and leadership wise was missing in action.

Sinckler still needs to establish himself. Brown had a poor 6 nations, still doesn't understand that he needs to pass the ball. Robshaw and Kruis missed the 6 nations so could miss out for that reason. Watson injured for most of 6 nations and hapless vs Ireland.

See my above post for my analysis of Brown.

I'm not saying they'll be disappointed in Gatland not picking them, but they'll be disappointed that they didn't make it - because they have either been unlucky with the timing of injuries (Kruis, Robshaw, Watson - if they don't go) or lost form at the wrong moment (Hartley, Brown - if they don't go). Hartley, Robshaw and Brown will be especially disappointed by combination of; having missed 2013, having played some good stuff since and being too old for 2021.

Sinckler does need to establish himself, but if Mako went last time (not as England's first choice LH) and George is being talked up this time (not as England's first chioce), then Sinckler deserves at least a discussion, especially as Nel is most likely out, Fagerson is even more green than Sinckler and neither of the Welsh boys have nailed the Wales 3 shirt either. Again, it might not be the wrong decision if he misses out, but he'll think he has a decent shout of that third tight-head shirt, especially if Gatland wants players who can take the game to New Zealand.

Griff wrote:Sorry, just to add: I personally would go AWJ over Charteris.  And I would not take Tomos Francis, or any of the Welsh props for that matter.  Moriaty - I think it's a season or two too soon for him.  He's just becoming established, but is still a bit 'raw' for me.  Tipuric would be my Welsh swap if pressed on it.  I'd probably have 1/2p as a tourist (not necessarily a starter) but a tourist as a solid, if unspectacular, fullback.  But I do understand that there's better/more flashy fullbacks out there.  

It's not about Flashy, particularly at fullback its about attacking threat. Even against the super rugby teams I think we need threatening strike runners. What annoys me most about halfpenny as even as little as 3 years ago he was solid but he also could turn the gas on at will and really create things. In the 3rd test in 2013 Halfpenny was the best fullback I have seen play for the Lions since Gavin Hastings. He was unreal. Pace, power, deft hands and impecable kicking. His time at Toulon has had a bad impact on him.

Charteris I think has been the unsung hero of Welsh rugby for years. He has a huge engine, tackles well and how he disrupts the lineouts so effectively without being penalized is marvelous.

AWJ is amazing, but for the same reasons I left Laidlaw, Robshaw and Kruis out I just can't take him. 6 Weeks is a lot of rugby to miss and as I said there is no worse injury for a rugby player than a shoulder niggle. Even it is just a niggle it will effect the trunk, which will affect CV and almost certainly affect his impact at rucks and in the scrum.

I thought Francis had a damn good tournament too. The debacle against france meant he played 100 minutes! For a prop I'm surprised he wasn't carried off when that farce finished.

Sinckler goes I don't know very much about him, the Aviva isn't my strong point so to an extent my squad has given the benefit of the doubt to pro12 guys, who I see more often. At least in terms of 50-50 calls.

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:12 IMO isn't a position of strength though.

This is true, but Teo still doesn't make it for me. I think 12 is a straight shoot between Farrell and Henshaw, with Joseph nailed on at 13. I'd also take JD2 (who can play 12 if needed) and Daly. Other options would be Scott Williams, Gary Ringrose and Alex Dunbar, but I don't think they'll go. Teo would be behind all of that lot.

Still, we are not blessed at 12. There's no Gibbs or Greenwood pulling down trees.

Centre and 12 seems to be quite weak across the board.  It's a big problem in Wales.  We're playing Scott Williams there but he's often played 13 at club level.  There's no-one to take over from Jamie Roberts now that he's getting on a bit and the game has moved away from the crash ball centre (which he's less and less effective at).   Is Farrell not an option there?  Or have I miss that discussion further up?

I really like the look of that Huw Jones.  OK, defence seemed suspect against England but he scored 2 nice tries.  Is he an out and out 13?

He is an out and out 13, but he's also out and out of the Lions tour 5 months with a torn hammy.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Agreed. As I said, Brown would probably start at 15 were this Lions tour in 2015. Now I'd say he's well behind Hogg and Williams, and I don't think Gatland will pick a 3rd specialist at 15.

Yeah, unfortunately for the guy his only chance is an injury to one of those two pre-tour, and even then he's probably behind Halfpenny in Gatland's eyes and in a shoot out with Kearney and Payne (if not selected elsewhere) for 4th choice at best.

Personally I'd go with 39 with a 23 forwards and 16 backs split.
11 Irish
11 English
9 Welsh
8 Scottish

Loosehead Props: McGrath, Healy, Vunipola
Tightheads: Furlong, Coles, Nel (highly dependent on his performances on return from injury)
Hookers: Best, Owens, George
Second Rows: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, AW Jones, Launchbury, Henderson, Itoje, Lawes (On the basis the Latter three could play in the back row)
Back Rows: Vunipola, Faletau, Watson, Warburton, Stander, O'Brien, Tipuric, O'Mahony


Scrum-Halves: Murray, Youngs, Webb
Fly-Halves: Sexton, Russell
Centres: Farrell, Joseph, Dunbar, Henshaw, Davies
Back Three: Hogg, North,Williams, Watson, Daly, Seymour


I think in reality the squad will feature 3-4 fewer Scots.

I'm picking 38 too - a starting 23 + 2nd XV. With Wales playing Tonga in Auckland during the tour there's going to be plenty of "backups" on hand to do a Shane Williams

Note I'm picking Starter, Finisher & Mid-Weekers in that order. And it's what I'd pick rather than what I expect Gatland to pick (let's face it, with Howley as attack coach there's no real point in picking out & out attackers anyway ;-) - you're feiced regardless)

LH
McGrath - Vunipola - Marler
McGrath as a strong scrummager to start, Mako as impact

Hooker
Owens - George - Best
Can't argue with RR here. Owens gets to be the poor sod outclassed by Dane Coles


Tighthead
Furlong, Nel (if fit), Cole, Sinkler (if no Nel)
I may be an Exeter fan, but Francis is a rubbish prop

Lock
Lawes, Launchbury/Kruis, Itoje (bench covering lock & blindside), J Gray, Launchbury/Kruis/Henderson (if Kruis fit). And yes I know Gats will take AWJ even though he's past it.

Backrow
Starting:
Stander-Warburton-Vunipola
Bench - Watson (with Itoje on the bench too I want a 7 to match up against Ardie Savea)
MidWeek:
O'Mahoney - O'Brien - Faletau/Heaslip (Faletau if he finds some club form, the showpony otherwise)
Yes I know Tipuric will travel. And get hopelessly outclassed in the land of proper #7s
Scrum Half
Murray - Webb - Care - Murray edges Webb due to his partnership with Sexton.


Stand Off
Sexton - Russell (Farrell will be 10 cover playing 12, so only need 2 10s. Plus Hogg of course ;-) )

Centre
Start: Farrell - JJ -
Bench:Henshaw -
MidWeek - Ringrose Payne (Payne as FB cover too)

Winger/FB
Start - Hogg, Williams, North/Seymour (North still needs to show some more form for me)
Bench - Daly (utililty impact. And PACE)
MidWeek - Watson, North/Seymour, Nowell

Yes I know Halfpenny will travel. And probably Kearney to boot - even though they're both solid defenders with little else to offer (ok, goal kicking/long boot)

With regards full back. I would of thought Mike Brown would get a chance.

Now, speaking as a New Zealander here's the starting XV I'd like to see ;-)
(from players who started games in the 6N)

Reid
Ford
Francis
Toner
Ball
Wood
Tipuric
Heaslip
Price
Ford/Biggar (harsh on Ford, but with goal kicking responsibility to weigh on his confidence ;-) )
Cuthbert
Roberts
JD2
Zebo
Kearney

majesticimperialman wrote:With regards full back. I would of thought Mike Brown would get a chance.

I'd have him ahead of 1/2P/Kearney. Behind Hogg & Daly though.

Brown will beat the 1st defender on a kick return which is nice. Nicer still is having someone who can pass (I'm looking at you too Jonathan Davies)

I personaly do not think Roberts will ge on the Lions tour this year.


If that team played the Abs they would get slaoughterd.

majesticimperialman wrote:I personaly do not think Roberts will ge on the Lions tour this year.


If that team played the Abs they would get slaoughterd.

That was the whole idea Maj ;-)

I'm thinking that we have 4 LH, HK and THs. If we just have 3 and 1 breaks down on tuesday night then 2 lads need to share 80min for the wednesday and the saturday, which could be a test match. Not ideal.

Can we make a test team out of qualified players who are not really British or Irish?

Mako
Dylan
Nel
?
?
Stander
Billy
Hamish Watson
?
?
Teo
Manu
Maitland
Visser
Jared Payne

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Now, speaking as a New Zealander here's the starting XV I'd like to see ;-)
(from players who started games in the 6N)

Reid
Ford
Francis
Toner
Ball
Wood
Tipuric
Heaslip
Price
Ford/Biggar (harsh on Ford, but with goal kicking responsibility to weigh on his confidence ;-) )
Cuthbert
Roberts
JD2
Zebo
Kearney

Welcome back reddevil

I hope your wish does not get shown to Gatland.....

the-goon wrote:I'm thinking that we have 4 LH, HK and THs. If we just have 3 and 1 breaks down on tuesday night then 2 lads need to share 80min for the wednesday and the saturday, which could be a test match. Not ideal.

I think Jarvis (Wales TH) provided the LH cover against England in the World Cup game, because they had an injury they wanted to cover but not call up a replacement. Is there anyone else (better) who is still versatile?

The other option is to push your props to play 80 minutes in that situation and "throw" the scrums in the midweek game to protect your first choice players (e.g. put on two looseheads to protect your first choice tight-head).

Rugger Radge

No Faletau, Tipuric or AWJ

But yes to Francis and Charteris?!!

clueless

hugehandoff wrote:Can we make a test team out of qualified players who are not really British or Irish?

Mako
Dylan
Nel
?
?
Stander
Billy
Hamish Watson
?
?
Teo
Manu
Maitland
Visser
Jared Payne

Depends what you mean by "not really British or Irish". Is it a Residency XV, a Grandad XV, or just a Not Born Here XV?

Think Joe Simpson's is Australian born, but someway down England's pecking order, let alone the Lions. Anscombe is a similarly unlikely option at 10, but was born in NZ.

Got me stumped for locks, unless you're happy to throw some out-of-position back-row in there.

hugehandoff wrote:Can we make a test team out of qualified players who are not really British or Irish?

Mako
Dylan
Nel
?
?
Stander
Billy
Hamish Watson
?
?
Teo
Manu
Maitland
Visser
Jared Payne

Hamish Watson born in Manchester to 2 Scottish parents is that no longer part of the UK?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Now, speaking as a New Zealander here's the starting XV I'd like to see ;-)
(from players who started games in the 6N)

Reid
Ford
Francis
Toner
Ball
Wood
Tipuric
Heaslip
Price
Ford/Biggar (harsh on Ford, but with goal kicking responsibility to weigh on his confidence ;-) )
Cuthbert
Roberts
JD2
Zebo
Kearney

This exercise is harder to do with New Zealand, but I would love to see former Junior World Player of the Year Ben Atiga at fullback.....

.....and World Cup winner Stephen Donald at 10.

Gwlad wrote:Rugger Radge

No Faletau, Tipuric or AWJ

But yes to Francis and Charteris?!!

clueless

Clueless, thanks for that contribution. I did say it would be nice for someone to offer counter arguments instead of criticism. However that seems to have escaped you. AWJ is injured, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I would have picked him possibly even as captain had he not just gotten injured. I also laid out why I would select Charteris.

So you honestly think Faletau has had a better 6N than Stander or played better than Billy V? In addition I don't think Tipuric has played better than Watson or O'brien.

Debate instead of just criticising Glwad, it's more fun!

funnyExiledScot wrote:.....and World Cup winner Stephen Donald at 10.

He's playing quite well at 12 for the Chiefs currently. Atiga OTOH is retired due to arthritis

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Can we make a test team out of qualified players who are not really British or Irish?

Mako
Dylan
Nel
?
?
Stander
Billy
Hamish Watson
?
?
Teo
Manu
Maitland
Visser
Jared Payne

Hamish Watson born in Manchester to 2 Scottish parents is that no longer part of the UK?

Mako
Dylan/Strauss
Nel/Berghan
Quinn Roux (or Dillane at a stretch - half Irish, eligible for France and Ivory Coast)
Mike Williams
Stander/du Preez
Billy/Taulupe/Hughes/Waldrom/Strauss
Hardy/Cowan/Harrison
Boss/
Anscombe
Teo
Manu
Maitland
Visser
Jared Payne

I've given my opinion on a number of players and positions elsewhere, but basically if I was selecting a squad now, going by the itinerary and strength of opposition, there were 36 players selected for the 13 Tour to Oz, they were made up of 7 back 3, which includes Hogg, 4 centres,
2 fly halves, 3 scrum halves, 2 No 8s, 5 flankers, 5 locks, 5 props and 3 hookers. I would add another specialist fly half. Before I name my squad
I have to mention AWJ, a number on here have said he shouldn't tour because he is injured NOW, the prognosis is that he's liable to be out for 6 weeks, that will end at the time of our game (Ospreys) against Ulster or could even be a week earlier if we qualify for RCC2. That would possibly leave him games against Scarlets, RCC2, and Guinness Semi Final and Final, if anybody doesn't think he would be ready for a Lions Tour after that series of matches then they are delusional, finally if he isn't fit for at least 2 of those games or we (Ospreys) don't qualify for that number of matches, you'll get no argument from me about NOT taking him. Now to my squad
Back 3. Hogg, Halfpenny, North, L Williams, Daly, Seymour and Watson

Centres. Joseph, Ringrose, Henshaw and (Dunbar) it would have been Hugh Jones unless for his bad luck

Fly Halves. Sexton, Farrell and Russell

Scrum Halves Murray, Webb and either Care or Youngs personally would just favour Care.

No 8s Vunipola and Faletau I know Taulupe hasn't even been Wales first choice but to me on top form he's even better than Billy but at the moment I would pick Billy.

Flankers Tipuric, Warburton, Stander O'Mahony and Watson. this is really hard on the likes of Barclay and O'Brien

2nd Row AWJ, Launchberry, Itoje, Lawes, and J Gray, if AWJ doesn't make it probably Charteris or could be R Gray.

Props Furlong, McGrath, Marler, Vunipola and Cole I would personally put another prop in there and would hope Nel could come in if not Sinckler.

Finally Hooker. Best, Owens and George. Number 245 selected hooker would be ME, a nearing 70 year old and after me would be Hartley. That is about as close as he should be.

If AWJ is fit he should be captain if not fit I'd give it to Best.

That is 12 English, 10 Irish, 9 Welsh and 7 Scots, that would change if either of AWJ and Nel don't make it.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Rugger Radge

No Faletau, Tipuric or AWJ

But yes to Francis and Charteris?!!

clueless

Clueless, thanks for that contribution. I did say it would be nice for someone to offer counter arguments instead of criticism. However that seems to have escaped you. AWJ is injured, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I would have picked him possibly even as captain had he not just gotten injured. I also laid out why I would select Charteris.

So you honestly think Faletau has had a better 6N than Stander or played better than Billy V? In addition I don't think Tipuric has played better than Watson or O'brien.

Debate instead of just criticising Glwad, it's more fun!

Fair enough I'm not criticizing you radge I just think you're way off on some picks. Teo for example

AWJ is going. stat. He'll be fit and I'll buy you an imaginary pint if he doesn't.  
The whole match fitness argument doesn't fly because the club games ail get those players lacking game time fit

Charteris is not going. Lauchbury, Lawes, Kruis, AWJ, Gray, irish blokes all in front of him

Francis is a donkey, the best of a bad lot. Barely international level. Cole Furlong and Nel for me.

Watson?!! Couple of decent games and he's a Lion. No chance.

Itoje is not a back row and won't go on tour in that capacity

Faletau is a World Class player and has been kept out by a superb 6 Ns performance by Moriarty who might even tour but probably won't. He is nonetheless outstanding and is a certainty to tour. IMO the fact he has been eased back in might be because howler knew he he was going anyway. He is most likely going to be Billy's understudy but as a back row bench option he is superb.

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Rugger Radge

No Faletau, Tipuric or AWJ

But yes to Francis and Charteris?!!

clueless

Clueless, thanks for that contribution. I did say it would be nice for someone to offer counter arguments instead of criticism. However that seems to have escaped you. AWJ is injured, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I would have picked him possibly even as captain had he not just gotten injured. I also laid out why I would select Charteris.

So you honestly think Faletau has had a better 6N than Stander or played better than Billy V? In addition I don't think Tipuric has played better than Watson or O'brien.

Debate instead of just criticising Glwad, it's more fun!

Fair enough I'm not criticizing you radge I just think you're way off on some picks. Teo for example

AWJ is going. stat. He'll be fit and I'll buy you an imaginary pint if he doesn't.  
The whole match fitness argument doesn't fly because the club games ail get those players lacking game time fit

Charteris is not going. Lauchbury, Lawes, Kruis, AWJ, Gray, irish blokes all in front of him

Francis is a donkey, the best of a bad lot. Barely international level. Cole Furlong and Nel for me.

Watson?!! Couple of decent games and he's a Lion. No chance.

Itoje is not a back row and won't go on tour in that capacity

Faletau is a World Class player and has been kept out by a superb 6 Ns performance by Moriarty who might even tour but probably won't. He is nonetheless outstanding and is a certainty to tour. IMO the fact he has been eased back in might be because howler knew he he was going anyway. He is most likely going to be Billy's understudy but as a back row bench option he is superb.

Watson has been better in more than just a couple of games. Even some of the pundit picked teams have him as a tourist.

6. Stander, Warburton and POM (Itoje at a push)
7. Tipuric Warburton and SOB. Too soon for him but perhaps he'll be on standby.
8. Billy, Taulupe and yes Moriarty I hope. (Stander can cover)

Test back row is Stander, Warburton and Billy with Faletau on the bench.

Gwlad wrote:6. Stander, Warburton and POM (Itoje at a push)
7. Tipuric Warburton and SOB. Too soon for him but perhaps he'll be on standby.
8. Billy, Taulupe and yes Moriarty I hope. (Stander can cover)

Test back row is Stander, Warburton and Billy with Faletau on the bench.

I disagree, test back row I think will be 6. POM 7. Warburton and 8. Stander.

With Billy V on the bench.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

We all know that both POM and Faletau are class players, but I don't think either will make it. Whilst both have been out injured others have stepped up. We're not short on quality in the back-row and guys like Itoje or Henderson can cover at 6.