British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

lostinwales wrote:The Brown thing is such a non event.

I'd only add that at this stage in his career the thing he does best for England is be the safe pair of hands at the back. He provides leadership, even if its of the 'nobody dares mess up because he might get angry' type and as such is still valuable to us even though he isn't the player he used to be. I would say something similar about AWJ for Wales

He was one of the best 15's around 4 years ago and should have gone with the lions then, but not this time.

He didnt have a great six nations. His defence wasnt great v Italy in particular. I think he is a better option than 1/2p though but on form perhaps even behind Kearney who played well in the 6 nations and November.

I would want Hogg and Liam Williams in the back 3; not sure why George North is pencilled in by so many, I would see him as more suspect defensively than Hogg.

Aren't the centres more of a worry? Would backs of Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Joseph, Williams, Seymour/Nowell and Hogg be too much of a risk defensively?

With Mike Brown, his comments do seem to involve a bit of a dig at Gats & Co, although maybe we see it more because we know what he's like. I can understand why you wouldn't take him on rugby and personality grounds.

Winzer wrote:I would want Hogg and Liam Williams in the back 3; not sure why George North is pencilled in by so many, I would see him as more suspect defensively than Hogg.

Aren't the centres more of a worry?  Would backs of Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Joseph, Williams, Seymour/Nowell and Hogg be too much of a risk defensively?

With Mike Brown, his comments do seem to involve a bit of a dig at Gats & Co, although maybe we see it more because we know what he's like.  I can understand why you wouldn't take him on rugby and personality grounds.

Do you think Henshaw is defensively weak?

Winzer wrote:I would want Hogg and Liam Williams in the back 3; not sure why George North is pencilled in by so many, I would see him as more suspect defensively than Hogg.

Aren't the centres more of a worry?  Would backs of Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Joseph, Williams, Seymour/Nowell and Hogg be too much of a risk defensively?

With Mike Brown, his comments do seem to involve a bit of a dig at Gats & Co, although maybe we see it more because we know what he's like.  I can understand why you wouldn't take him on rugby and personality grounds.

I'm not seeing any defensive liabilities in that backline personally.

I dont really either.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Winzer wrote:I would want Hogg and Liam Williams in the back 3; not sure why George North is pencilled in by so many, I would see him as more suspect defensively than Hogg.

Aren't the centres more of a worry?  Would backs of Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Joseph, Williams, Seymour/Nowell and Hogg be too much of a risk defensively?

With Mike Brown, his comments do seem to involve a bit of a dig at Gats & Co, although maybe we see it more because we know what he's like.  I can understand why you wouldn't take him on rugby and personality grounds.

I'm not seeing any defensive liabilities in that backline personally.

Hogg one on one isn't great defensively especially close to the line he seems unsure of how to tackle

Henshaw had a lot of missed tackles in the 6Ns, that may have been from having to babysit Ringrose though

Henshaw is usually rock solid defensively and I don't think there's another option at inside centre who's better than him in that regard.

Hendshaw didnt miss a lot of tackles. Here are his stats which are some of the best for an Ireland back in the six nations. The only game you could say he had a bad day defensively perhaps was against England.

tackles made/missed

Italy 4/0
France 8/0
England 6/3
Scotland 7/1
Wales 14/2

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Henshaw is usually rock solid defensively and I don't think there's another option at inside centre who's better than him in that regard.

Roberts

Granted the Dr offers about as little on attack as Halfpenny ...

Again I just don't see this 1on1 tackling weakness. He missed one 1on1 tackle against Fickou in the 6N and that's it.

The last clear 1on1 tackles I can remember him having to make were against Italy and against Sarries in the ERC, and he made 4 out of 4.

As I said against Sarries he held out Ashton on one wing and held out Maitland on the other, Here is one of his efforts against Italy

http://www.ispn24.com/hogg-makes-fantastic-last-ditch-tackle-to-save-the-day-rbs-6-nations_51072851d.html

This whole Hogg can't tackle thing is a myth.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Again I just don't see this 1on1 tackling weakness. He missed one 1on1 tackle against Fickou in the 6N and that's it.

The last clear 1on1 tackles I can remember him having to make were against Italy and against Sarries in the ERC, and he made 4 out of 4.

As I said against Sarries he held out Ashton on one wing and held out Maitland on the other, Here is one of his efforts against Italy

http://www.ispn24.com/hogg-makes-fantastic-last-ditch-tackle-to-save-the-day-rbs-6-nations_51072851d.html

This whole Hogg can't tackle thing is a myth.

It is because a lot of people's perceptions are based on several years ago

Whereas all other options have weaknesses Id say Hogg is the only player that you get the whole Hogg complete full back.

R!skysports wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Again I just don't see this 1on1 tackling weakness. He missed one 1on1 tackle against Fickou in the 6N and that's it.

The last clear 1on1 tackles I can remember him having to make were against Italy and against Sarries in the ERC, and he made 4 out of 4.

As I said against Sarries he held out Ashton on one wing and held out Maitland on the other, Here is one of his efforts against Italy

http://www.ispn24.com/hogg-makes-fantastic-last-ditch-tackle-to-save-the-day-rbs-6-nations_51072851d.html

This whole Hogg can't tackle thing is a myth.

It is because a lot of people's perceptions are based on several years ago

Does that Include Warren Gatland when he left out Launchberry, Gray, Robshaw, Watson and blah blah blah

TightHEAD wrote:Well done to Mike Brown for speaking out, he spoke what he was feeling, such a refreshing change for a player to give a non-media trained answer.

To be honest I think his performances have dropped off this season for England despite still putting up impressive stats, but when a player like 1/2p has been awful for 3 years you can see where he is coming from.

and we know how much he likes the media

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1vQ2rlfAO4

robbo277 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Brown really is as moany as he looks:

http://www.the42.ie/warren-gatland-mike-brown-lions-3379608-May2017/

Is it moany? To give Brown the right of reply: https://twitter.com/mikebrown_15/status/861535813078843397

All he said was he was disappointed not to be picked, doubly so as he won't get another shot, which is understandable. The initial sentiment, that he "slammed" Gatland, was blown out of proportion by headline writers.

He gave an honest interview about how he felt about missing out, it got blown up and then journalists pressed Gatland on it. Both were fairly measured in my opinion.

I didn't read the independent headline. But I will admit I was being a little facetious towards my fellow English brethren. 

Rory_Gallagher wrote: my fellow English brethren. 

Are you saying you're English!?

miaow wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: my fellow English brethren. 

Are you saying you're English!?

Thankfully not, no.

Seems Faletau is peaking at the right time. A hat trick of tries and now Player of the Month...I'd say he gets closer to that Test 8 shirt every day.

Not when vunipola is fit.

He is fit no?

But its all about form isn't it not just fitness as we've been hearing ad nauseam, and Faletau is the form choice Player of the Month. Great news for him. Billy V is literally an outstanding impact player to come off the bench but TF has the edge.

Personally I prefer the Faletau mould of 8...ironically I think that if Billy was Welsh (which he is?) he would fit Gatland's style better.

I like Faletau too, he's the best ball playing number 8 in the NH in my opinion. However I'd say Billy V is more the sort of number 8 Gatland would probably go for.

Power and stability over guile is his MO. Hence why Halfpenny will almost certainly start over Hogg.

I'd start Faletau in the back row with either POM or Stander on the blindside and Sam on the openside

POM or Stander for sure and either will do a superb job. Which is the better lineout option?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Personally I prefer the Faletau mould of 8...ironically I think that if Billy was Welsh (which he is?) he would fit Gatland's style better.

I dont think Gatland's direct style refers to the no 8, its more about a direct 12. An 8's primary role in any side is as ball carrier and that is where Billy V has the perceived edge but in my opinion though he does it very wel,l he is not well known for anything else. He may get the nod on carrying alone however because he is that good, but TF offers more around the park and at the set piece and carries strongly.

Horses for courses, there is also a comparative disparity between the two on aggression apparently, with TF regarded as having left his mongrel at home. I think that's just BS and he mixes it with the best of them.

Honestly be happy with either as 8 and even trying TF at 6 though I think POM and Stander deserve a chance. Billy V could be a very exciting last half hour though. But TF is the form player - 3 MOMs since 6 Nations and now Player of the month.

I can't see Billy not starting tbh, he's that good. He scares defences and makes room for others. Hes also great on the deck which he rarely gets credit for.

Billy will start. Ireland beat NZ by physically outmatchibg them which Billy can do. These days trying to outskill them is a lost cause

Ireland don't beat anyone by physically out matching them, otherwise Heaslip would be the 8 selected rather than big fat Bill.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Billy will start. Ireland beat NZ by physically outmatchibg them which Billy can do. These days trying to outskill them is a lost cause

I thin if we go there to beat them up we'll get stuffed. Except for a debatable scrum they aren't exactly weak anywhere. I think matching them for tempo has always been a way into the All Blacks. The stars will have to align: physicality, fitness and execution.

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Billy will start. Ireland beat NZ by physically outmatchibg them which Billy can do. These days trying to outskill them is a lost cause

I thin if we go there to beat them up we'll get stuffed. Except for a debatable scrum they aren't exactly weak anywhere. I think matching them for tempo has always been a way into the All Blacks. The stars will have to align: physicality, fitness and execution.

When has it worked?

At the start of numerous Wales games for starters! Over the years we've run them close but always fall off in the last 3rd. Problem is maintaining intensity over 80 and breaking away which Ireland managed last year. England 2012 is an outlier and explicable for other reasons plus Tuilagi who I think makes all the difference. Would like to see him back in an English shirt as soon as possible and at 25 he could even make Lions 2021.

You wonder too with the All Blacks how much of that ability to stay in touch and then stride away in the last 3rd or 1/4 is bench impact or fitness.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Billy will start. Ireland beat NZ by physically outmatchibg them which Billy can do. These days trying to outskill them is a lost cause

Yep, one of the first names on the start sheet. Best form 8 in the NH at the moment (Lions group at least).

Taylorman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Billy will start. Ireland beat NZ by physically outmatchibg them which Billy can do. These days trying to outskill them is a lost cause

Yep, one of the first names on the start sheet. Best form 8 in the NH at the moment (Lions group at least).

Form 8? Wrong, again

Faletau just awarded Premiership player of the month and has had 3 MOMs since 6 Nations.

Gwlad wrote:You wonder too with the All Blacks how much of that ability to stay in touch and then stride away in the last 3rd or 1/4 is bench impact or fitness.

Having watched the ABs closely in every test, seeing them go away in the last 20 much of it is the bench, selecting the right players for high impact, high accuracy, ability to expose the more likely available space through tired bodies- Barrett has been easily the most successful test sub in the time subs have been allowed, though they lose that now with him starting.

But its also the efficiency in which they execute their gameplan, the accuracy of the run, pass, chase etc, which can have the effect of tiring out the opposition over the period.

The other reason is the speed, accuracy and fitness levels of the tight five in broken play is a priority. When the Boks were shoving the Ab's around afew years ago, rather than bulk up to meet them- we dont have the cattle for that anyway, we went the high speed, high skills route.

What we found was at 50-60 minutes our tight five were still running and passing where the Boks were labouring after making them run around so much. That equation means more time and space is available to be exploited, gaps are there, and their tight five are too stuffed to even chase or tackle.

Scrums, lineouts, restarts all have thir place, but the ability to get all 23 moving quickly over 50-60 minutes must have its payoffs, and that is usually a drop in quality of the tight five, and the sharing of the running, passing, tackling, offloading etc across the entire 23- not just those outside the tight 5.

That will be Gatlands issue if he goes for bulk over mobility.

AB's may 'appear' fitter, but its more just about efficient use of the full 23. If other sides are expecting their tight five to do the majority of the work in the scrums, lineouts and breakdowns, and less in open play, then the rest have to absorb the work.

1.McGrath 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Williams 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Best 17.Vunipola 18.Furlong 19.Wyn-Jones 20.Faletau 21.Webb 22.Henshaw 23.Daly

That would give the forwards a set platform that know one another for the line-out. Especially when you add that Billy will usually stand at scrum half then strip the ball from the jumper to set the maul. George throwing to Kruis and Itoje then working with Billy is as recognised a unit as you get with the Lions.

In the backs you have the Murray-Sexton axis at half back then Farrell-Joseph outside them.

Plenty of options on the bench to change game plan as required. With Warburton captain the back row picks itself 'if' guys stay fit. Stander and Vunipola offer so much physicality in attack and defence. The back row is so competitive that anyone of the squad options could stake a claim for the 23 though.

king_carlos wrote:1.McGrath 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Williams 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Best 17.Vunipola 18.Furlong 19.Wyn-Jones 20.Faletau 21.Webb 22.Henshaw 23.Daly

That would give the forwards a set platform that know one another for the line-out. Especially when you add that Billy will usually stand at scrum half then strip the ball from the jumper to set the maul. George throwing to Kruis and Itoje then working with Billy is as recognised a unit as you get with the Lions.

In the backs you have the Murray-Sexton axis at half back then Farrell-Joseph outside them.

Plenty of options on the bench to change game plan as required. With Warburton captain the back row picks itself 'if' guys stay fit. Stander and Vunipola offer so much physicality in attack and defence. The back row is so competitive that anyone of the squad options could stake a claim for the 23 though.

Looks about right to me, though I'd suggest one of Henderson or POM on the bench for more flexibility and genuine 6 cover. Probably POM to cover 7 too. Or maybe Tips. Just someone other than Itoje covering 7

Gatland isn't going to leave out North.

McGrath Best Furlong: there's a lot of leverage in putting out an established front row

Itoje AWJ: brilliant youth with grizzled Lions experience

POM Warburton Faletau: yes everyone wants Billy but TF has everything and is hitting rich form, Billy is my impact back row player. POM covers 7, Sam 6.

Murray: Touch and go with him and Webb but Murray sexton, again, is a leverage pick

Sexton: its his tour and I expect him to have the tour of his life, if he remains fit.

North: as I say Gets won't leave out north, a winning Lion who made Folau look like a toy at times

Farrell: I'd happily see him as 10 and he may well oust Sexton, his exceptional footballing ability means that we will always have a playmaker first receiver whatever phase.

Joseph: No debate here and his omission would have been a crime, proven finisher can he handle the physicality of NZ midfield though?

Williams: Ok so just for me over Watson who may well pip him but Sanjay has dog and will be. Avery physical threat, awesome counterattacked to the NZ kicking game

Hogg: Like Williams is awesome on th encounter but I worry about his defense. that debate needs to be settled in the warm up games.

bench
Mako, George, Cole, - again leverage with an England front row and two hugely experienced props.
Kruis: will join Itoje - massive player massive impact but unproven so thats why he benches (to suggest starting at this point is unbeleivable)
Billy: Imagine the impact. 30 minutes of him carrying into a somewhat tired midfield.
Webb: again him or Murray will do but Murray sexton makes a lot of sense to me
JD2: Marginal with Henshaw but is hitting form
Halfpenny: mr solid dependable shut the back door in the last 1/4 and kicks superbly with moments of brilliance given the chance. Last minute long distance kick anyone?

Faletau has covered 7 before.

Gwlad wrote:Gatland isn't going to leave out North.

McGrath Best Furlong, Itoje AWJ, POM Warburton Faletau, Murray, Sexton, North, Farrell, Joseph, Williams, Hogg

bench Mako, George, Cole, Kruis, Billy, Webb, Henshaw, Halfpenny

Faletau has covered 7 before.

So have I, I still wouldn't pick me to cover there against the All Blacks

Alternatively, as good as Stander has been, I think POM, Warburton, Vunipola has a better balance

Not that it makes much odds but if you want to throw actual stats into the mix, from six nations just past ESPN have missed tackles as follows for all matches:
1/2p - total of 4
Hogg - total of 5
Liam Williams - total of 10 (albeit playing wing rather than full back)
NZ are a different kettle of fish from NH teams so you can probably add a multiplier in there for the lions tour!!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Gatland isn't going to leave out North.

McGrath Best Furlong, Itoje AWJ, POM Warburton Faletau, Murray, Sexton, North, Farrell, Joseph, Williams, Hogg

bench Mako, George, Cole, Kruis, Billy, Webb, Henshaw, Halfpenny

Faletau has covered 7 before.

So have I, I still wouldn't pick me to cover there against the All Blacks

Alternatively, as good as Stander has been, I think POM, Warburton, Vunipola has a better balance

Superb as I am sure you are, are you comparing your ability to play with Faletau's? if so, I am virtually impressed!

I'd have Stander POM or Sam at 6 to be honest. And I would love to see if Faletau can play there, a back row of Sam, Faletau and Billy could be epic.

So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

Taylorman wrote:So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

Me. I am the third jumper.

Taylorman wrote:So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

Itoje AWJ POM.

Scottrf wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

Itoje AWJ POM.

POM very good tail jumper given how big he is.

Taylorman wrote:So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

With Borthwick running things expect a Bok style attacking line-out. Particularly with Gatland's conservative tactics and Rowntrees love of mauls. I'd wager that the line-out will go full man (or 6 man with a forward stood at 9) more often than not and movement will be to a minimum given the players not being familiar with one another.

Borthwick favours having two primary jumpers in the middle of the line-out, having them lifted by his tallest lifters then backing his thrower to hit those jumpers at the very top of the lift. To paraphrase Matfield talking about the Boks line-out he developed, everyone knows where the ball is going 9 times out of 10, but as long as the lifting pod make sure the jumper hits the highest point possible and the hooker hits them at the highest point possible then action beats reaction every time. It was common to see defensive jumpers only miss-out on stealing the ball from Matfield by 20cm, but if it's only 20cm every time then it's still clean ball.

It's a very basic, high pressure strategy for the locks and hooker. It also reduces the need for a third jumper - even Haskell has been used as a front jumper by England for a rare change up when the middle is fully marked! It's a simple tactic but one that Borthwick has implemented with a lot of success both as a player and coach.

Given everything we know about Borthwick's love for Kruis as a lineout technician and maul work, are Itoje and AWJ competing for the other starting shirt (as it stands)

In which case, is there any area other than exshperiansh (being old) that AWJ trumps Itoje in?

Start the Irish trio in the front row, established pairing at lock, put Billy at 8 with POM/Stander and Warbs depending whether you'd rather have a carrier or a breakdown/lineout guy and I really think that's a pack that will at the very least match the All Blacks at the set piece and offers a real challenge around the park

McGrath, Best, Furlong
Kruis, Itoje
POM, Billy, Warbs

George, Mako, Cole, Henderson, Stander

That's your bench to meet fire with fire in the last 30 mins

O'Mahony is one of the best line-out jumpers in the NH, regardless of the fact he plays in the back row. For that reason he is possibly the front runner for the 6 shirt. A lot of people have Stander pencilled in for the 6 shirt, but the only reason he has been playing there for Ireland is because O'Mahony was injured and Schmidt wants to keep Heaslip at 8. The back row is balanced much better with O'Mahony at 6. I think the real argument will be who plays at 8 and then the impact option on the bench.

That is assuming Gatland will pick Warburton at 7 and isn't considering him as the leading option at 6.

king_carlos wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So who is the 3rd jumper? Thats why I thought he'd have to go with Itoje at 6.

With Borthwick running things expect a Bok style attacking line-out. Particularly with Gatland's conservative tactics and Rowntrees love of mauls. I'd wager that the line-out will go full man (or 6 man with a forward stood at 9) more often than not and movement will be to a minimum given the players not being familiar with one another.

Borthwick favours having two primary jumpers in the middle of the line-out, having them lifted by his tallest lifters then backing his thrower to hit those jumpers at the very top of the lift. To paraphrase Matfield talking about the Boks line-out he developed, everyone knows where the ball is going 9 times out of 10, but as long as the lifting pod make sure the jumper hits the highest point possible and the hooker hits them at the highest point possible then action beats reaction every time. It was common to see defensive jumpers only miss-out on stealing the ball from Matfield by 20cm, but if it's only 20cm every time then it's still clean ball.

It's a very basic, high pressure strategy for the locks and hooker. It also reduces the need for a third jumper - even Haskell has been used as a front jumper by England for a rare change up when the middle is fully marked! It's a simple tactic but one that Borthwick has implemented with a lot of success both as a player and coach.

If Read plays they'll have Whitlock and Retallick, three very good lineout exponents so they won't want to let Read go unmarked for long, plus they'll use him to steal if Lions have only got two. Still can't see Itoje at lock, in the same way I can't see anyone but Farrell at 10. I don't think Gatland thinks Sexton will handle running play from there, and he might be right.

For me Itoje, Billy and Warburton back row, Connor Farrell inside pair, North and Williams at wing, Halfpenny at FB.

Best set up for a controlled gameplan, and Gats knows nothing else. He won't take chances v the ABs. Tried and true for him.

Why would you pick Farrell at 10 when he hasnt started at 10 for about 20 tests? Also why wouldnt you pick itoje at lock when it is his best position?

Why do you think Gatland doesnt rate Sexton when he already has started Sexton in three tests ahead of Farrell?