1872 Cup decider: Glasgow v Edinburgh 6th May 2017

Date: Saturday 6th May
Time: 17:15
Where: Scotstoun Stadium

Unwilling participant: Edinburgh 'Rugby'
Slightly more willing, but frankly still underachieving participant: Glasgow Warriors

Things to play for: 1872 Cup, bragging rights, ability to walk around in public feeling like you can refer to yourself as a rugby player (Edinburgh specific)

Things to look out for (aka the Unicorn awards): a pair of Edinburgh players successfully transferring the ball from one to the other through the medium of 'a completed pass', Duncan Weir looking and playing like a fly half, Edinburgh managing to win 2 matches in a row, a hygienic looking Glasgow fan



I fear my thread may be more towards the FES end of the scale than the GC end. Apologies. Now, discuss.

If Edinburgh beat Glasgow in the cup (again) then surely this will be one of Glasgow's worst seasons in a while?

Hogg and Seymour might have their lions call ups taken away from them!

In previous years I might have said it wouldn't surprise me if Edinburgh win this - the last few years we've been very inconsistent but still managed the odd big win.

The start of this season has been a similar story but we've been utterly rancid consistently since around November.

Glasgow and win this and with a bonus point - I just hope we make a game of it. In leg one at Murrayfield we didn't fire a single shot - we were so poor (in a poor game).

I can't believe I'm associated with "low effort" threads.....

Just to remind folks, the Soap Dodgers scraped home by 25-12 at the Temple of Rugby in the 1st leg. Edinburgh were robbed by the ref if I recall correctly....

I think we'll lose by 40 points.

Here's what I'd like Hodge to go with:

1.Dell 2.Ford 3.Berghan 4.Gilchrist 5.Toolis 6.Hardie 7.Watson 8.Du Preez 9.SH-C 10.Tovey 11.Scholes 12.Burleigh 13.Allan 14.Hoyland 15.Kinghorn

Selection principle: get your best available players on the pitch.

I think this could be closer than it really should. Glasgow aren't really the force they were a few seasons ago and the Edinburgh win will have boosted the players' confidence. Add to that the fact that Scotland places are up for grabs, I think a few Edinburgh players might raise their game enough for this to be a good contest.

If I was Hodge, I'd go with:

Dell, Ford, Berghan, Gilchrist, Toolis, Hardie, Watson, Du Preez, SHC, Weir, Brown, Burleigh, Allen, Hoyland, Kinghorn.

I don't know how big the squad will be for Scotland, but, assuming it is 30 players I.e. 2 for each position, these contests could be quite good:

Dell - Allan/Reid: I don't think there is really anyone who is obviously first in line for the loosehead position for the summer, so this should be a good match up.

Gilchrist - Swinson: I thought Gilchrist should have got MoM vs Dragons so it'll be interesting to see how he compares to Swinson. They could be contesting a bench spot?

Du Preez - Ashe: I imagine Wilson is first in line for the 8 jersey if Strauss and Bradbury aren't fit. Assuming Barclay plays at 6 with Watson 7, the back up 8 is probably between these 2. Du Preez really needs a big game.

SHC - Prygos: 2 players that have faded from attention. With pyrgos co captain at Glasgow, I feel SHC needs a big game to get on the tour.

Weir-Horne: I'd play Weir as he should have a point to prove against Glasgow. I'm not overly convinced Horne is the right back up 10, maybe Weir could get the 22 spot with a good performance?

Hoyland - Hughes: Would be interesting to see how Hoyland's defence stands up and if Hughes can exploit it.

Kinghorn - Murchie: I think Kinghorn offers more but Murchie seems more solid in defence.

Glasgow should well and truly put the 'dead' into 'dead rubber'.

Hard to see anything beyond a comprehensive Glasgow victory. I'd like to think a few Edinburgh players will want to impress Toonie ahead of the summer, but it's hard to stand out from the collective malaise unless your name is Hamish Watson.

My only hope for this game is that Watson, Hardie, Dunbar, Hughes and Jones don't get injured. 

That's literally about it.

.....or Ben Toolis who has been consistently excellent for Edinburgh.

This will be a selection game for the Summer Tour!

Toolis will be wanting to impress as he should be going on tour.

GC, when you say Jones, you mean Lee Jones? Why is he so important right now?

I can’t see  anything other than Glasgow winning this one with ease.

I get there are potentially Scotland places on the line, but Edinburgh have struggled against every team this year, there is nothing to suggest Edinburgh will do anything other than fold like a cheap suit.

Is Kinghorn back for this game or is still away on holiday….sorry with the 7s?

Predictions for the game:
• Glasgow to romp to an early lead, looking unassailable, Edinburgh will do sod all until the final 5- 10 mins when they’ll actually start playing a bit of rugby,  but it will be too little too late and Glasgow will run out comfortable winners.  
• Weir, Bryce(s) and Bennett will all be knocking on Toonie’s door begging for him to let them stay.
• Every Edinburgh player will look like they have met for the first time in the car park on the way in, with the exception of Watson and Toolis.
• Glasgow will take off Hogg and Seymour after 10 mins (with the game won) to keep them injury free ahead of the lions

Agree that this is a big game for Toolis. He needs to put down a marker here in front of Toonie. We can assume that Ritchie Gray has one of the lock spots nailed down, which by my count leaves the second starting spot and the bench slot a three-way contest between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree that this is a big game for Toolis. He needs to put down a marker here in front of Toonie. We can assume that Ritchie Gray has one of the lock spots nailed down, which by my count leaves the second starting spot and the bench slot a three-way contest between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis.

What about Johnny Gray?

I can't see anything other than both Grays touring. Yes JG looks a bit jaded but he will have a month off before the tour, time for a holiday then some fitness training before they go. This is about the only positive of us missing the play offs this season.

I am sure we will take two other second rows on the tour, but assuming there are no further Lions call ups, they are playing for the bench spot. They will be between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis with Cummings the next cab off the rank if anyone gets injured or if Tonnie decides to play Tombola with the national team as well.

Part of me does like the prospect of Swinson moving more regularly to the blind side though. He can certainly carry well enough for that role and as has often been said, he is probably not really big enough to be a true international lock forward. With the crop of second rows Glasgow now possess, maybe we will be seeing that.

Johnny Gray will be called-up to the Lions. I've sent Schizoid to meet AWJ off the bus.....

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree that this is a big game for Toolis. He needs to put down a marker here in front of Toonie. We can assume that Ritchie Gray has one of the lock spots nailed down, which by my count leaves the second starting spot and the bench slot a three-way contest between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis.

What about Johnny Gray?

I can't see anything other than both Grays touring. Yes JG looks a bit jaded but he will have a month off before the tour, time for a holiday then some fitness training before they go. This is about the only positive of us missing the play offs this season.

I am sure we will take two other second rows on the tour, but assuming there are no further Lions call ups, they are playing for the bench spot. They will be between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis with Cummings the next cab off the rank if anyone gets injured or if Tonnie decides to play Tombola with the national team as well.

Part of me does like the prospect of Swinson moving more regularly to the blind side though. He can certainly carry well enough for that role and as has often been said, he is probably not really big enough to be a true international lock forward. With the crop of second rows Glasgow now possess, maybe we will be seeing that.

I think that would be a sensible move for Swinson, he is mobile enough for 6 and would provide more ballast in the Glasgow back row, which is desperately short of power just now.

I thought Gilchrist played as well as I've ever seen him do so on Friday, more mobile than usual. However Toolis deserves his chance for his consistently good form all season.

EST wrote:

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree that this is a big game for Toolis. He needs to put down a marker here in front of Toonie. We can assume that Ritchie Gray has one of the lock spots nailed down, which by my count leaves the second starting spot and the bench slot a three-way contest between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis.

What about Johnny Gray?

I can't see anything other than both Grays touring. Yes JG looks a bit jaded but he will have a month off before the tour, time for a holiday then some fitness training before they go. This is about the only positive of us missing the play offs this season.

I am sure we will take two other second rows on the tour, but assuming there are no further Lions call ups, they are playing for the bench spot. They will be between Swinson, Gilchrist and Toolis with Cummings the next cab off the rank if anyone gets injured or if Tonnie decides to play Tombola with the national team as well.

Part of me does like the prospect of Swinson moving more regularly to the blind side though. He can certainly carry well enough for that role and as has often been said, he is probably not really big enough to be a true international lock forward. With the crop of second rows Glasgow now possess, maybe we will be seeing that.

I think that would be a sensible move for Swinson, he is mobile enough for 6 and would provide more ballast in the Glasgow back row, which is desperately short of power just now.

Swinson's lack of pace does concern me slightly as a blindside flanker, particularly when you compare him to Barclay and Wilson (Cotter's choices for the role), but with Hardie or Watson at 7 we do at least have proper opensides to choose from. Swinson at 6 isn't a bad call, but ultimately I see Strauss moving to 6 to accommodate Cornell Du Preez once he rediscovers his mojo.

MacKnocked-on wrote:I thought Gilchrist played as well as I've ever seen him do so on Friday, more mobile than usual. However Toolis deserves his chance for his consistently good form all season.  

Gilchrist's performances have been a lot better of late and it was pleasing to see him take the game by the scruff of the neck the last 10 minutes - something you want from your captain and something that he's rarely shown before.

He's still not hitting the heights of his first few years as a Pro, and Toolis is still more worthy of a callup, but at least he's putting in reasonable performances now.

To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

Gilchrist has actually played the entire season for Edinburgh - from memory he hasn't been listed as injured once this season, or at least not for more than a game.

That in itself is a great achivement given how injury prone he was before this season.

Lawes had to be taken off at the Exeter-Saints game and he was down a good while before they could get him off for a HIA. Hopefully it is nothing but any injuries in the playoffs now for AWJ, Kruis (who is already in a battle to prove his fitness), Lawes (if he comes back for CC playoffs) or Itoje and a Gray brother may be persuaded to go to NZ. Toolis has earned his shot and, outside of the Australia game, should start.

If CDP does not put a big shift in, he should not tour. He is going by reputation at the moment. I would rather a slow Swinson at 6 with Watson at 7 and Barclay at 8 than an out of form CDP getting capped because he was good a year ago. Glasgow should romp this match and he needs to carry effectively and efficiently to give Edinburgh any hope.

An interesting subplot is the back 3 battle. Will Toonie take Jackson because he can cover? Does Kinghorn get a bench space? Do Hoyland, Hughes and Jones do enough to impress ahead of using H Jones on the wing (or asking the Wasps wing to come along)?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

Gilchrist has actually played the entire season for Edinburgh - from memory he hasn't been listed as injured once this season, or at least not for more than a game.

That in itself is a great achivement given how injury prone he was before this season.

I thought he missed the start of the season and AIs through injury. I stand corrected if not. I would, of course, go to the website and look it up, but they don't update the stats on a live basis. What the website does tell you is that he played one game in 2015/16, as a replacement, and five games in 2014/15 (one coming from the bench).

Much as Jones has had a very good season for Glasgow, I still don't really see him as an international player and I don't think he will tour. Same with Rory Hughes, who has not managed to nail down a regular Glasgow spot yet, he has still got some work to do. Hoyland, in my opinion, has gone backwards this year, mainly thanks to the Edinburgh playing style and until he sorts out his defence, is not going to play international rugby again.

Lee Jones and Jacko are to some extent, yesterday's men and I can't see much logic bringing them back into a Scotland squad now. If there is going to be any experimentation, then surely it needs to be with some of the young guns.

KInghorn is probably the next cab off the rank for the back three and provides the full back cover required, wing and FG as well at a push. He played well when he came on against the Drags last Friday and seems to have benefitted from being out of the Edinburgh firing line for a few weeks. He does have something about him and would be worth investing time and effort in.

The other young gun who would have been worth taking along was Bradbury, but I am not sure he will be fit. We will probably have enough back rowers to cover that in any case.

FH is our Achilles heal on this tour and we will be caught squarely with our pants down if Finn gets injured or called up. Horne has to be the back up as Duncan Weir has gone over the edge of a cliff recently. Other than that there is really no-one.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

Gilchrist has actually played the entire season for Edinburgh - from memory he hasn't been listed as injured once this season, or at least not for more than a game.

That in itself is a great achivement given how injury prone he was before this season.

I thought he missed the start of the season and AIs through injury. I stand corrected if not. I would, of course, go to the website and look it up, but they don't update the stats on a live basis. What the website does tell you is that he played one game in 2015/16, as a replacement, and five games in 2014/15 (one coming from the bench).

If you look back in the match reports he was available at the start of the season and has been since then as far as I remember.

The Edinburgh website is utterly guff remember.

I stand corrected. What's perhaps more worrying is that I don't remember him playing much this season, even though he was apparently playing!! I'd have MacKenzie/Toolis down as the most played combo this season.

Any word on Bresler? For some reason I'm assuming that he'll be off at the end of the season. Pity, as he arrived full of promise (the Edinburgh Effect strikes again).

Bresler was out injured for most of the season until 6-8 weeks ago, and he's only had the odd appearance since.

I wouldn't put him in the Edinburgh effect bracket as he's been consistently good whenever he played - his partnership with Toolis was one of the best in the league 2 seasons ago (they had the top lineout stats in the league) - the problem is he's just not been picked this season (when he's been fit).

I suspect he'll go - I'd have him as our first choice #4 but with McKenzie, Gilchrist, Toolis and Charmichael, plus rumours of a young Glasgow lock joining us, there's probably no room for him given the rest are all Scottish. It's a shame as he is exactly the kind of tough barsteward that we need.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bresler was out injured for most of the season until 6-8 weeks ago, and he's only had the odd appearance since.

I wouldn't put him in the Edinburgh effect bracket as he's been consistently good whenever he played - his partnership with Toolis was one of the best in the league 2 seasons ago (they had the top lineout stats in the league) - the problem is he's just not been picked this season (when he's been fit).

I suspect he'll go - I'd have him as our first choice #4 but with McKenzie, Gilchrist, Toolis and Charmichael, plus rumours of a young Glasgow lock joining us, there's probably no room for him given the rest are all Scottish. It's a shame as he is exactly the kind of tough barsteward that we need.

More like The Hodge Effect then. See Michael Allan as another example.

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

Agreed. He is several notches below his career best of "horribly average".

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be honest the key for Gilchrist is to have an injury free season next year and over the summer. I do think that he needs a proper run of games in order to get back to where he was.

Agreed. He is several notches below his career best of "horribly average".

That's harsh Mr GC. Cast your mind back to 2012, when Gilchrist formed a compelling partnership with Sean "Bad Boy" Cox. He was rightly seen then as a very bright prospect for Scottish rugby at a time when our lock options were so dire that even Al Kellock made it onto the Scotland bench. Talk about "horribly average"....

I think the battle of the 9s in this fixture should be good. SHC must have been crying into this paella watching Price accrue his caps recently. Both will want to tour (+ Pyrgos), and with a Frodo-less Scotland going well, the sentiment amongst the Scottish 9's must be it's time to topple the alpha....

Manky-Flanker wrote:I think the battle of the 9s in this fixture should be good. SHC must have been crying into this paella watching Price accrue his caps recently. Both will want to tour (+ Pyrgos), and with a Frodo-less Scotland going well, the sentiment amongst the Scottish 9's must be it's time to topple the alpha....

SHC has suffered badly from the Edinburgh Effect over the last couple of seasons. He has all the talent in the world but the Solomons game plan ruined him and the rudderless side we are now under Hodge has seen a number of talented players look lost. That's not to remove all the blame from SHC, he doesn't come across as entirely focused at times (which may be spectacularly unfair) and his execution of box kicks isn't as consistent as it needs to be.

Still, what we have here is a talented player with a lot of experience for a 23 year old, and his best years ahead of him. For me he is the most talented scrum half at Edinburgh and next season will hopefully benefit from a more competently run side. Price has leapfrogged him and is also a real talent, but SHC needs to be looked after. Both could prove very useful options for Scotland over the next decade.

I’m not sure Solly can be blamed for this one.

Prior to the 2015 RWC, SHC looked in great form, with many calling for him to start ahead of Laidlaw.  After the WC, he looked shocking, which coincided with him being coached by Hodge at international level and then by Hodge who joined Edinburgh after the World Cup.  The common factor here (aside from SHC himself) is hodge.

Clearly the issue could primarily be SCH, but I don’t think having Hodge as a coach is helping him.

I wonder if there's a conflict of interest here - Townsend with his Scotland hat on will want Weir to start so he can see if he should be picked for the summer tour (which he shouldn't). Townsend with his Glasgow hat on will want Weir to start as it greatly increases Glasgow's chance of winning!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I wonder if there's a conflict of interest here - Townsend with his Scotland hat on will want Weir to start so he can see if he should be picked for the summer tour (which he shouldn't).  Townsend with his Glasgow hat on will want Weir to start as it greatly increases Glasgow's chance of winning!

...and Hodge, with his "I don't know what I'm doing" hat on, will probably pick Weir regardless!!

By jove, I'm finding it desperately difficult to give a sh!t about this game.

It's true. I'm interested, but it lacks the spice of a winter matchup, and with the previous fixture having been more than four months ago, it just seems a bit flat.

We should either stage both matches in December or both in May (I'd prefer the latter), but keep them within a 10 day period regardless to build up the sense of ceremony.

I know it'll be frowned on on here, but I'm caring far more this week about the Falcons' chances of making the playoffs for the Big Cup. We need to beat Bristol and have both Gloucester and Northampton lose (definitely possible in both cases), and then hope Stade beat Glaws in the Tin Cup final. And what would be the result, you ask?? A likely home fixture against... Edinburgh!!

Wait, Edinburgh still have a chance of qualifying for the Champions Cup??

I think so!

http://www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionscup/qualification/index.php

In accordance with the Heads of Agreement drawn up by the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Champions Cup will be decided by a series of play-off matches.

The play-offs will include the following clubs:

• The seventh-ranked club from the TOP 14, or the winner of the Challenge Cup if from the TOP 14 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.
  
• The seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, or the winner of the Challenge Cup if from the Aviva Premiership and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.
  
• The eighth and ninth-ranked clubs from the Guinness PRO12, or the winner of the Challenge Cup if from the Guinness PRO12 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup. This club will take the place in the play-offs of the ninth-ranked club.

Oh god... I forgot about Effing Treviso.

Ignore me guys. Really sorry to get your hopes up!

Treviso pip you for a place in the Big Cup. No wonder Micheal Allan is bailing out.

IanBru wrote:Oh god... I forgot about Effing Treviso.

Ignore me guys. Really sorry to get your hopes up!

This is where I'm confused the 7 from Pro 12 will be Top 6 plus Italian team.

The playoff says 8th and 9th Pro 12 team but doesn't say what happens in the Italian situation. I'm assuming that will mean 7th and 8th Pro 12 teams instead?

Oh God, I feel like an utter b@stard now...

IanBru wrote:Oh God, I feel like an utter b@stard now...

As a lawyer you must be used to the feeling!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

IanBru wrote:Oh God, I feel like an utter b@stard now...

As a lawyer you must  be used to the feeling!

Actually most lawyers don't feel anything. Comes with the job description.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

IanBru wrote:Oh God, I feel like an utter b@stard now...

As a lawyer you must  be used to the feeling!

and dirty!

Right.   Sleeves rolled up.   Lets get tore in!

This is not a dead rubber (ooh-err missus) for us.   Now that The Luvvies have returned the 2 of the 4 tickets* they asked for and Scotstoun will be a Luvvie free-zone (as per usual), we can party hard in the sunshine and really say a fond farewell to some proper rugby players.     Just hope Sean 'The Blonde" Lamont gets on for a second 40 hat trick as he loves sticking it to the Luvvies (he also raised just shy of £8000 for Hearts and Balls and Glasgow Yorkhill Hospital and dyed his barnet ).    The other really sad departure is Simone Favaro.   He really bought into the Warriors culture and loves Glasgow as do his family.  That is one I really cannot understand but I appreciate its pro-sport and a new coach arrives in August but still    Of course Toonie will also be missed and will get a huge send off tomorrow (and on Wednesday at the Awards Dinner as will all the leavers).    

Just for the avoidance of any doubt our wings are graded, by most of the support at least, in order Seymour, Sarto, Jones, Sean L    , Hughes , Tagive,  and Junior B (plays for The Army v Navy at Twickenham tomorrow and i will miss it as usually try to attend       ).    

*  Sir Jasper and Lady fFion Chumley-Pugh won 2 1872 tickets at the New Club, Edinburgh, New Imperialist Ball but as they have never heard of Glasgow Warriors or indeed Glasgow it is most unlikely they will attend.   Sir Jasper is standing for the far right Conservative and Unionist Party in the forthcoming GE under a 'free Werthers Originals for the homeless/ lets humiliate victims of serious sexual crime further/ lets make Britain great by colonising Europe" manifesto pledges.    Lady fFion is an adherent of the noble bashaanimmigranto martial art and left school with an honorary o-level.    

I was following you until the last paragraph 21st it has to be said...

Welcome back Mr Schizoid. We've missed you, and Sir Jasper passes on his regards.....

Thank you, Your Highness