1872 Cup decider: Glasgow v Edinburgh 6th May 2017

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 6th May
Time: 17:15
Where: Scotstoun Stadium

Unwilling participant: Edinburgh 'Rugby'
Slightly more willing, but frankly still underachieving participant: Glasgow Warriors

Things to play for: 1872 Cup, bragging rights, ability to walk around in public feeling like you can refer to yourself as a rugby player (Edinburgh specific)

Things to look out for (aka the Unicorn awards): a pair of Edinburgh players successfully transferring the ball from one to the other through the medium of 'a completed pass', Duncan Weir looking and playing like a fly half, Edinburgh managing to win 2 matches in a row, a hygienic looking Glasgow fan



I fear my thread may be more towards the FES end of the scale than the GC end. Apologies. Now, discuss.

IanBru wrote:Hey guys, sorry I didn't come on here earlier, but huge congratulations to Edinburgh.

I think Glasgow could, perhaps should have won that game, but we were deficient in a number of areas, not least the lack of an 'x-factor' or plan B to use when our primary game wasn't working. I note that Niko was at the game with family in tow... please oh please oh please...

Edinburgh's defence was fantastic - the only time it was really breached was for Hogg's try, and there isn't a better team in Europe at executing set-piece attack moves from behind a scrum. A quiet word for Scott Cummings' offload to Big Jonny - absolute box office.

I think Edinburgh have played better this season, and by God they've played a lot worse, but I don't think I've seen Edinburgh play as smart in at least a couple of seasons. They took their points, limited Glasgow's, used the clock as a weapon, and kept Glasgow in their own half. The second half was probably also the best rugby we've seen in an 1872 match in years.

I'm pleased to get the cup back where it belongs! That being said, it's becoming increasingly clear that the Glasgow system under Toonie has been figured out by a number of teams, so it's probably better that we're having a change. Viva la revolución!

Well in classic fashion it's the defence coach we're sacking.....

Agreed on the lack of x-factor in the Glasgow ranks. Matawalu and Nakarawa we so important for Glasgow's chaos strategy, and they haven't been replaced. Cummings looks promising though, and I have high hopes for Ali Price.

I think the aggregate result is a fair reflection, and whilst it's a shame for Toonie and Lamont to bow out of Scotstoun with a heavy beating, I'm sure the silver lining for Toonie is that Edinburgh is perhaps not quite as derelict of talent as he probably thought. Young Ritchie really stood out, and that fat little fly half of ours had his best game of the season.

It's good to see Edinburgh are in the process of learning to win gracefully.

The first step is winning a rugby match. [Tick]

IanBru wrote:It's good to see Edinburgh are in the process of learning to win gracefully.

The first step is winning a rugby match. [Tick]

I've forgotten the score line - can someone remind me? Weren't Glasgow favourites to win this game?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:It's good to see Edinburgh are in the process of learning to win gracefully.

The first step is winning a rugby match. [Tick]

I've forgotten the score line - can someone remind me? Weren't Glasgow favourites to win this game?

Not only favourites but they were supposed to give us a total humping - 60, 70 points...

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:It's good to see Edinburgh are in the process of learning to win gracefully.

The first step is winning a rugby match. [Tick]

I've forgotten the score line - can someone remind me? Weren't Glasgow favourites to win this game?

Not only favourites but they were supposed to give us a total humping - 60, 70 points...

Chokers. Weren't Glasgow also tipped to make the play-offs this season? Did they?

That coach of theirs must be under massive pressure to keep his job after underachieving like that. He can certainly rule out any sort of promotion in the near future.

Oh you guys...

I can only assume that Giles and Tristram's Organic Fair Trade Free Love Coffee Emporium and Day Spa is taking longer than you expected to deliver the soya macchiatos (with sustainable cane sugar from a Grameen bank-funded community plantation) and bulgur wheat sour dough loaves.

IanBru wrote:Oh you guys...

I can only assume that Giles and Tristram's Organic Fair Trade Free Love Coffee Emporium and Day Spa is taking longer than you expected to deliver the soya macchiatos (with sustainable cane sugar from a Grameen bank-funded community plantation) and bulgur wheat sour dough loaves.

Don't worry, I'm zen. I'm just watching Fat Kid stroke over penalty after penalty against the Great Unwashed. It's very soothing.

Where are Jimbo and Schizoid? Do we need to send out search parties??

tigertattie wrote:aww for crying out loud!!!!

It's bad enough that we've had our worst ever season and now to make matters worse, the schiz is back to rub our noses in it!

He's more one eyed about Glasgow than some of the Welsh are about Wales!

Isn't the second coming of Schiz one of the signs of the apocalypse?
Isn't another sign Jimbo actually managing to use the quote function for once?

Oh well, Welcome back Schiz, I'm off to grab a bible..............

I gave him a big build up but the unwashed failed to back it up so he's away crying under a motorway flyover drowning his sorrows with Buckfast.

Not to worry though, he'll wander back into society soon as it's giro day on Thursday

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:It's good to see Edinburgh are in the process of learning to win gracefully.

The first step is winning a rugby match. [Tick]

I've forgotten the score line - can someone remind me? Weren't Glasgow favourites to win this game?

Not only favourites but they were supposed to give us a total humping - 60, 70 points...

Chokers. Weren't Glasgow also tipped to make the play-offs this season? Did they?

That coach of theirs must be under massive pressure to keep his job after underachieving like that. He can certainly rule out any sort of promotion in the near future.

Well after making the playoffs in the Champions Cup, and thus avoiding the highly respectable tiddlywinks junior competition where everyone is awarded a participation prize, and supplying the entire Scotland Squad*, who had their most successful 6 N while qualifying for next years Champions Cup, Glasgow players were a bit tired and decided to throw the the prawn munchers a bone to make them feel a bit more positive, by letting them win a game.

Of course they were in complete control of by how much, so could provide an ego boost to while comfortably winning the cup#

* well as good as
#well that is the way i see it

funnyExiledScot wrote:Where are Jimbo and Schizoid? Do we need to send out search parties??

Oh Festering One, you know very well I have been on here contributing my tuppence worth (great defensive effort by the knitwear models- Meatball kicked you to victory- that template will get you more losses than wins over a season, see Linneen's Glasgow- Glasgow had YET ANOTHER could've/should've won but lost-things better change PDQ).
The Schizoid one is away to Knock delivering his annual keynote speech to the Sister Of Eternal Succour; the good sisters do like to see a successful "wayward boy" return to the fold for an evening of reminiscing over a glass of communion wine. (Do you want a wafer with that?")

Anyway Gilchrist is out and Toolis is in.

Jackson is back.

We could face the Criminal Element with a 9-15 of:

Sam Hidalgo-Montoya
Furra Linee
Selkirk Pixie
Matt Scott 12 13 12
Nick Grigg's On Fire
Tackling Tim. Yes he does!!!
No Maits

I wonder when Toonie will stop being all conservative and get the Tombola spinning again.

I'm not a fan of this format where derbies are played on the last weekend of the regular season!

As has already been said, the cup games should be back to back as before, but even if they were back to back at the end of the season, it could get awkward.

Now absolutely any union could do this, but I'm using the SRU as an example in case any welsh fans come along to this thread!

Imagine the scenario

Edinburgh have had an utterly honking season and we've finished outside of champions cup position in the Pro 12 (like we have this year) so have nothing at all to play for (except the honour of bashing the unwashed - like we did)
Glasgow however have in this little scenario, had a slightly better season than that in real life and they are in a position to finish in a play off spot and to guarantee this, they need to beat Edinburgh and get the 4 try BP.

What is to stop the SRU from rocking up to Edinburgh and instructing the coach to play all his youngsters and citing "developing for the future" as the reason for this as there's nothing top play for in the league now? Actually though, the SRU just want to give Glasgow the bonus point win to get their team into the play offs?

I know this is theoretical and also, it would be easier just to get Mike Adamson to ref the game, but surely this scenario is entirely possible?

I tend to agree with that. In many ways it was a dead game for both sides and that may often be the case if it is played at this time of year. Back to back is a much better format and the xmas/new year holiday seems the obvious place to have the match as you can see what it does to the crowds.

With the rumours coming out about the Pro 12's plans for the Italian teams, I suspect that this is an experiment that won't have long to run.

whats happening with the Italians now?

Zebre (and maybe Treviso as well) getting the boot and being replaced by a team in Houston apparently.

Houston, Texas, USA?

also, if two teams are booted out, we'd need to repalce them with two teams or there'd be a bye week for teams (which isn't too bad a thing for the players I guess)

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/guinness-pro12/pro12-will-it-be-arrivederci-zebre-and-treviso-1-4438994

ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

tigertattie wrote:ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

So does this mean that the 'conference' idea has been ditched? If not, I can just hear the howls from those who have to travel to the US; compared to those with the short hop to Italy.

It wont work. Probably wont happen, and if it does it wont last long.

demosthenes wrote:

tigertattie wrote:ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

So does this mean that the 'conference' idea has been ditched?  If not, I can just hear the howls from those who have to travel to the US; compared to those with the short hop to Italy.

It wont work.  Probably wont happen, and if it does it wont last long.

Long haul gets expensive - it costs about £100k to get a squad business class from NZ to SA or Japan for instance. And (I've just checked) getting 30 people from London to Houston in early December business class on American is £75k minimum if you book now.

I can't be the only one who thinks North American teams is an act of absolute lunacy?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

demosthenes wrote:

tigertattie wrote:ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

So does this mean that the 'conference' idea has been ditched?  If not, I can just hear the howls from those who have to travel to the US; compared to those with the short hop to Italy.

It wont work.  Probably wont happen, and if it does it wont last long.

Long haul gets expensive - it costs about £100k to get a squad business class from NZ to SA or Japan for instance. And (I've just checked) getting 30 people from London to Houston in early December business class on American is £75k minimum if you book now.

They should book United Airlines - I'd like to see them try to throw Peter O'Mahony off a plane...

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

demosthenes wrote:

tigertattie wrote:ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

So does this mean that the 'conference' idea has been ditched?  If not, I can just hear the howls from those who have to travel to the US; compared to those with the short hop to Italy.

It wont work.  Probably wont happen, and if it does it wont last long.

Long haul gets expensive - it costs about £100k to get a squad business class from NZ to SA or Japan for instance. And (I've just checked) getting 30 people from London to Houston in early December business class on American is £75k minimum if you book now.

They should book United Airlines - I'd like to see them try to throw Peter O'Mahony off a plane...

Ach, I was going to go in with that joke too!

if yer no fast, yer last - unless yer Shlong in which case speed is irrelevant

Seriously though. i think the idea of having a US team in the Pro12 is a bit daft. The US would be far better served making their own pro league. Our Pro 12 could look at getting a Spanish team or a German or someone. Going across an ocean to play a game of rugby is a bit silly

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I can't be the only one who thinks North American teams is an act of absolute lunacy?

On the face of it, yes madness.

The alternatives don't seem great either though unless we want to see the Pro 12 slipping further and further behind the other two big leagues.

It is true to say that the league is getting nothing out of the Italian sides, either on or off the pitch. Several years in and that has not changed one bit, in some ways it is getting worse.

Dropping them and going down to 10 teams leaves us short of games, smaller squads and does nothing to address the revenue situation, so you can see why somewhat desperate measures are being looked at to try and pick up some new streams.

Rugby is popular at grass roots level in the States and Canada and the success they have achieved at sevens is starting to give the game some profile. It is a massive market if it can be broken into. Yes the other leagues can sell them viewing rights but the yanks in particular are quite parochial and will only really get into it if some of their own are playing.

It is madness, but there may be some method in it!

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

demosthenes wrote:

tigertattie wrote:ouch

mind you if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!

But working a yank team into the fixture list? That's not going to be easy. Surely the only way it would work would be if the yank team did mini tours. Play the Irish teams and Glasgow at home then travel over to play Edinburgh and the Welsh then they go home and play the welsh and Edinburgh before coming back over to play the away fixtures against the Irish and Glasgow?

Each existing team would only have to travel once but the Yank team would spend a lot of time away from home.

The only winners here are the airline companies and the extra runway at heathrow!

So does this mean that the 'conference' idea has been ditched?  If not, I can just hear the howls from those who have to travel to the US; compared to those with the short hop to Italy.

It wont work.  Probably wont happen, and if it does it wont last long.

Long haul gets expensive - it costs about £100k to get a squad business class from NZ to SA or Japan for instance. And (I've just checked) getting 30 people from London to Houston in early December business class on American is £75k minimum if you book now.

They should book United Airlines - I'd like to see them try to throw Peter O'Mahony off a plane...

Ach, I was going to go in with that joke too!

if yer no fast, yer last - unless yer Shlong in which case speed is irrelevant

Seriously though. i think the idea of having a US team in the Pro12 is a bit daft. The US would be far better served making their own pro league. Our Pro 12 could look at getting a Spanish team or a German or someone. Going across an ocean to play a game of rugby is a bit silly

Sadly the US Pro league got closed down after the league owner got the hump over the US RU (whatever they're called) talking to Pro12 ...

The thing I don't get is that the Pro 12 is actually a very high standard and a huge jump up from semi-pro like you get in USA/Canada/Europe. Even Edinburgh and the Dragons would give the Houston Hooch-drinkers (or whatever they're called) a complete doing if they joined the league and a full strength Top 6 team would put 100 points on them.

Unless the new USA club team is essentially the USA International team they just won't be competitive and it would take years (and lots of money) even to get them up to the standard of Zebre and Treviso.

It is a difficult one as Zebre and Treviso aren't going to improve any time soon but I just can't see how a new USA team in feckin Houston would be any better - any extra revenues would be offset by the league having to finance teams flying out to USA.

I think the idea is to reduce the Italian teams to one, in the hope that this will make that franchise a bit more competitive and also to base it in Rome, with the hope of catching an audience.

You would imagine that the American franchise would have a fair few European mercenaries in it but would, like the Argentinian and Japanese models, largely be the national squad as well In the future the league could probably go up to 13 to include a similar deal for a Canadian franchise, or if the Rome move bombs as well, lose the Italian's altogether.

Apparently it has only been a massive charm offensive by Connor O'Shea which has stopped this happening already. The lack of progress of the Italian teams has been driving the Pro 12 management to distraction.

I would also assume that Houston would have to pay a decent amount into the Pro12 (similar to Italy) in order to join, which could be used to offset travel.

They'd also have to structure the league so that Houston could play 2 blocks of away games (thought initially one block but that would be almost 3 months away from home).

So for example weeks 1-6 play Irish & Scottish teams away
Weeks 7-13 - Return fixtures from 1st block
14 - 18 - Welsh & Italian team
19+ return fixtures from 2nd bock.

Would mean 1.5 months away from home, twice a season, but it's not impossible. There would probably need to be an onus on the home nation to find suitable training facilities for them during that time.

However RDW's point is key, they are likely to be awful, at least for the first few years.
Houston has a population of ~2million so there is potential there and it's only got an expansion NFL team so in theory it's not up against one of the bigger NFL franchises to compete with audiences with.

Still think it's a logistical/financial nightmare, but if they can trial it for a couple of seasons it might pan out.

Surely the cost of 30 odd players and staff (plus all their kit) staying in hotels for 6 weeks straight would be astronomical?

Say £120 per day including all their food that's 120*30*7*6 = over £150k....

RDW_Scotland wrote:Surely the cost of 30 odd players and staff (plus all their kit) staying in hotels for 6 weeks straight would be astronomical?

Say £120 per day including all their food that's 120*30*7*6 = over £150k....

And that's not including all their internal travel (busses, internal flights etc)

Agreed, but would make more sense than flying them over and back again every other week.

Didn't say it made sense financially just it would make more sense from logistics point of view.

Mind you using the costs of flights mentioned previously (£70k for 30) then having them stay is not much more (considering return flight).

Still far too much money and doesn't make sense in general, but if it has to happen the block idea would be moderately more logical than 30+ rugby players flying over the atlantic every other week

I guess if they were able to get a similar deal to that new Canadian rugby league team who are apparently getting free flights for them and all the teams they play against through a sponsorship deal with an airline, then it would cut those costs down quite a lot