British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

by Guest Tue May 09, 2017 8:27 am

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

by TightHEAD Wed May 31, 2017 7:47 am

Are you sure?

by The Great Aukster Wed May 31, 2017 10:14 am

Griff wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:North had it written into his contract that he could miss northampton games for wales. Presumably you feel he's letting his saints team mates down as wales chase the cash for additional games outside the international window.

Plus, let's not forget players who are 'owned' (at least in part) by the union and are limited on the number of games they play each season, which invariably means that their club games are limited to maximise the international games they play. There's been a number of Irish players in this camp over the years, amongst others of course.

If Wales choose to "chase the cash" outside International windows then they must do so with players who are available and that excludes those who do not have release clauses with their clubs. Therefore Wales are effectively devaluing Test rugby by fielding a team from a restricted pool that is really Wales Lite - not Wales.

So yes North is letting his Saints teammates down if he chooses to play for Wales Lite rather than his club. World Rugby realises that Test rugby can't have unfettered access to club players which is why they have International windows in the first place.

If North sustains a season ending injury with the Lions he is letting both his club and Welsh teammates down. The Lions is not a country that have invested in him to win World Cups. The Lions is not a club that sustain his livelihood year after year. Risking both for personal aggrandisement with a fantasy team should be much lower priority than Country or club even if there is no clash of fixtures.

by No 7&1/2 Wed May 31, 2017 10:22 am

The lions is a team which is rarer and is investing in players to win a seriously hard tour. You just place more emphasis on your country and province which is fair enough. Others as I've said don't.

by The Great Aukster Wed May 31, 2017 10:29 am

Taylorman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Club rugby whether professional or amateur represents the area where they are based. Halfpenny represents Toulon and gets well paid to do so. To turn his back on his TEAM in their most important game of the year is against the very traditions of the game.
A club final means a lot to those supporters who have followed their team week in week out through thick and thin. The betrayal of his team for thirty pieces of silver is indefensible.

What a load of rubbish. Only reason hes there is because bouj pays more money.
Which part is rubbish? That he is contracted to Toulon or that he doesn't care about his teammates?

Taylorman wrote:Do you really think these guys hearts are in playing with a bunch of money grabbers from all over the world to play in the back blocks of France for a few locals they neither know nor care about?
And you know this how? The majority of imports are from the SH so does this mean SANZAR are producing mercenaries who don't care about their teammates? I think you are doing a disservice to the majority of them and am fairly sure Jonny Wilkinson would disagree with you.

Taylorman wrote:There is honour in playing for a tradtion like the Lions, more so than fir a money grabbing mercenary outfit like Toulon, who offer nothing to the rugby of the areas of the players they steal from.

So stff them. That aint real rugby, its two bit imitation of the baabaas in wolfs clothing.

At least halfpenny knows where his rugby priorities lie.
Where is the honour in leaving your teammates high and dry in the most important game of the season. Where is the honour in taking money from a pointless marketing jamboree and risking your career with club and country. The honourable position would be to favour the club that has favoured you and support the Nation that has developed and supported you. Toulon took years to win anything despite their stellar cast, whereas the Lions have three games to become a team - perhaps the All Blacks should be considering whether there is any honour in perpetuating a 'tradition' that is now so heavily weighted in their favour? ... of course any such consideration would only last a nanosecond before greed overcame it.

The Barbarians are a true tradition of rugby - charitable, playing uncapped players, playing to entertain the crowd, shunning points etc. or in other words about as far away from Toulon as it's possible to get. The Lions on the other hand are drawn from the biggest playing pool in the world, with supposedly the best players competing fiercely amongst themselves for a start in a marketing juggernaut. Fans and players didn't like Alastair Campbell being part of the last tour because it reminded everyone how far the Lions had fallen from their corinthian roots.
The Lions shirt is only a slightly different shade of red to Toulon's, but that doesn't mean that Halfpenny should think it's OK to swap one "money grabbing mercenary outfit like Toulon" for another like the Lions.

Well I think you're just being a bit of a Lions party pooper. Looking at the fans arriving they look quite clear about what is priority here. No one will be talking about Toulon in a few weeks, where this series will produce yet again some memories and stories that will be relayed long down the years.

If Toulon win there might be a few talking about it in a couple of weeks but I agree it will be old news. The debate that you've ignored (or are incapable of arguing) is whether it is morally right for Halfpenny to abandon his team in their biggest game of the season. Culturally the last thing I would expect a NZ player to do is risk adversely affecting the All Blacks or secondly abandon his 'super club' side to line out for a SH fantasy team (if one existed). Why is it OK for Halfpenny to do so?

by The Great Aukster Wed May 31, 2017 10:31 am

TightHEAD wrote:1 Scot, 5 Irish, 5 English, 4 Welsh

I just see 15 Lions.

Shouldn't that be 10 British and 5 Irish Lions?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed May 31, 2017 10:32 am

The Great Aukster wrote:...
If Toulon win there might be a few talking about it in a couple of weeks but I agree it will be old news. The debate that you've ignored (or are incapable of arguing) is whether it is morally right for Halfpenny to abandon his team in their biggest game of the season. Culturally the last thing I would expect a NZ player to do is risk adversely affecting the All Blacks or secondly abandon his 'super club' side to line out for a SH fantasy team (if one existed). Why is it OK for Halfpenny to do so?

Fundamentally, if such a SH all-star team existed, the SH administrators would be smart enough to schedule its matches not to clash in the 1st place Wink

by The Great Aukster Wed May 31, 2017 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The lions is a team which is rarer and is investing in players to win a seriously hard tour. You just place more emphasis on your country and province which is fair enough. Others as I've said don't.

How are the Lions "investing in players"? Investment implies taking a chance today with the hope there might be some return in the future. The 'rarity' of the Lions means there is no future, because most picks don't have serial tours. If they were truly "investing" then they would take far more players ala SCW who would learn from the experience. They don't because they aren't interested in the players, just winning.

The Lions is paying players to win a seriously hard tour. Nothing more and nothing less - that's what it is and that's also fine. The investment is in keeping the Brand going so making sure that there will be another payday in four years. The Lions can't afford repeated humiliation as per the noughties so I expect the investment in players will be restricted to their paycheque, possible win bonus and a loud voice reminding them this is their Armageddon.

by No 7&1/2 Wed May 31, 2017 10:55 am

So just like the club's then.this is the professional age and the biggest brand in the rugby world clearly fihts in with it. You don't like it don't watch though.you've professed to be a fan previously. No player is forced to take part and we've had refusals in the past.

by marty2086 Wed May 31, 2017 11:00 am

I wish we would stop arguing amongst ourselves and remember together, we're stronger, we join and proud we stand, now the day has come, we are one

by Cyril Wed May 31, 2017 11:03 am

marty2086 wrote:I wish we would stop arguing amongst ourselves and remember together, we're stronger, we join and proud we stand, now the day has come, we are one

Power of Four and Ireland's Call are very similar lyrics-wise Whistle

by marty2086 Wed May 31, 2017 11:09 am

Cyril wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I wish we would stop arguing amongst ourselves and remember together, we're stronger, we join and proud we stand, now the day has come, we are one
Power of Four and Ireland's Call are very similar lyrics-wise

Ireland and the Lions are very similar too, a unified team from 4 regions based out of Dublin

Bloody Brits copying us Whistle

by Cyril Wed May 31, 2017 6:06 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The lions is a team which is rarer and is investing in players to win a seriously hard tour. You just place more emphasis on your country and province which is fair enough. Others as I've said don't.

How are the Lions "investing in players"? Investment implies taking a chance today with the hope there might be some return in the future. The 'rarity' of the Lions means there is no future, because most picks don't have serial tours. If they were truly "investing" then they would take far more players ala SCW who would learn from the experience. They don't because they aren't interested in the players, just winning.

The Lions is paying players to win a seriously hard tour. Nothing more and nothing less - that's what it is and that's also fine. The investment is in keeping the Brand going so making sure that there will be another payday in four years. The Lions can't afford repeated humiliation as per the noughties so I expect the investment in players will be restricted to their paycheque, possible win bonus and a loud voice reminding them this is their Armageddon.

Just watching the 2005: Inside the Lions Den documentary on Sky Sports 1. Interesting that Gareth Thomas joined the Lions tour 17 days late after his commitments with Toulouse.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed May 31, 2017 9:41 pm

Who do we think is in good form right now?

Among the England contingent, Cole, Lawes and Nowell are all coming off good games, while Daly, George and Haskell have looked short of their best. Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola and Farrell seem steady enough, although they didn't shine against Exeter. Haven't got much of an idea about the others.

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:46 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think is in good form right now?

Among the England contingent, Cole, Lawes and Nowell are all coming off good games, while Daly, George and Haskell have looked short of their best. Kruis, Itoje, Vunipola and Farrell seem steady enough, although they didn't shine against Exeter. Haven't got much of an idea about the others.

Jd2 had a good game in the pro12 final against a lacklustre Munster.

I think my enthusiasm will up a bit after this Saturday. Up until now I have been a bit meh after the unwarranted Welsh selection bias & Joe Launch not being selected.

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:34 am

Nice piece from Kaplan on how to ref the ABs.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/93212249/referees-must-beware-of-the-all-blacks-dark-arts--ex-referee-jonathan-kaplan

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:39 am

What are the chances of the ABs getting their first ever red card?

by beshocked Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:53 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What are the chances of the ABs getting their first ever red card?

0% I'd say.

Can purposely spear tackle the Lions captain and get no punishment - you can get away with anything.

It's sad that to this day, there has been no apology and any feeling of wrongdoing.

Graham Henry says Mealamu and Umaga handled the situation well.... Laugh

They weren't the ones on the floor writhing in pain....

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/graham-henry-tana-umaga-keven-mealamu-handled-brian-odriscoll-incident-pretty-well/

Supposedly all that matters was whitewashing the Lions...

It's quite odd that the NZers turned Mealamu and Umaga into the victims. They got away with their actions. No punishment.

At least with England's resident bad boy captain, ironically a Nzer himself, he's been punished each time he's stepped out of line.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:54 am

beshocked wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:What are the chances of the ABs getting their first ever red card?

0% I'd say.

Can purposely spear tackle the Lions captain and get no punishment - you can get away with anything.

It's sad that to this day, there has been no apology and any feeling of wrongdoing.

Graham Henry says Mealamu and Umaga handled the situation well.... They weren't the ones on the floor writhing in pain....

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/graham-henry-tana-umaga-keven-mealamu-handled-brian-odriscoll-incident-pretty-well/

Supposedly all that matters was whitewashing the Lions...

It's quite odd that the NZers turned Mealamu and Umaga into the victims. They got away with their actions. No punishment.

At least with England's resident bad boy captain, ironically a Nzer himself, he's been punished each time he's stepped out of line.

Actually Umaga apologised to BOD. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

by beshocked Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:56 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:What are the chances of the ABs getting their first ever red card?

0% I'd say.

Can purposely spear tackle the Lions captain and get no punishment - you can get away with anything.

It's sad that to this day, there has been no apology and any feeling of wrongdoing.

Graham Henry says Mealamu and Umaga handled the situation well.... They weren't the ones on the floor writhing in pain....

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/graham-henry-tana-umaga-keven-mealamu-handled-brian-odriscoll-incident-pretty-well/

Supposedly all that matters was whitewashing the Lions...

It's quite odd that the NZers turned Mealamu and Umaga into the victims. They got away with their actions. No punishment.

At least with England's resident bad boy captain, ironically a Nzer himself, he's been punished each time he's stepped out of line.

Actually Umaga apologised to BOD. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

When? A few years after the incident? Didn't apologise at the time.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:59 am

Kaplan speaks a lot of sense in that piece. Obviously much harder to spot all the things going on in practice though!

by eirebilly Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:00 am

beshocked wrote:

0% I'd say.

Can purposely spear tackle the Lions captain and get no punishment - you can get away with anything.

It's sad that to this day, there has been no apology and any feeling of wrongdoing.

Graham Henry says Mealamu and Umaga handled the situation well.... They weren't the ones on the floor writhing in pain....

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/graham-henry-tana-umaga-keven-mealamu-handled-brian-odriscoll-incident-pretty-well/

Supposedly all that matters was whitewashing the Lions...

It's quite odd that the NZers turned Mealamu and Umaga into the victims. They got away with their actions. No punishment.

At least with England's resident bad boy captain, ironically a Nzer himself, he's been punished each time he's stepped out of line.

They have both apologised. Umaga said that had their tackle was instrumental in the updating of the rules. I still, to this day, do not feel it was malicious, just a horrible onfield incident. They happen in games.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:01 am

beshocked wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:What are the chances of the ABs getting their first ever red card?

0% I'd say.

Can purposely spear tackle the Lions captain and get no punishment - you can get away with anything.

It's sad that to this day, there has been no apology and any feeling of wrongdoing.

Graham Henry says Mealamu and Umaga handled the situation well.... They weren't the ones on the floor writhing in pain....

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/graham-henry-tana-umaga-keven-mealamu-handled-brian-odriscoll-incident-pretty-well/

Supposedly all that matters was whitewashing the Lions...

It's quite odd that the NZers turned Mealamu and Umaga into the victims. They got away with their actions. No punishment.

At least with England's resident bad boy captain, ironically a Nzer himself, he's been punished each time he's stepped out of line.

Actually Umaga apologised to BOD. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

When? A few years after the incident? Didn't apologise at the time.

Umaga apologised to BOD during the week after the test actually. BOD rejected it admittedly.

Like I said, facts, good story

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:03 am

Have you got any link to any story that says Umaga apologised at the time? "Dont be a sook Brian" isnt exactly an apology.

Only in New Zealand would they make Umaga the victim when he smashed someones collarbone and left them sidelined for 13 months with a potentially career ending injury. Kiwi logic.

Graham Henry came across as a massive plonker in the whole affair.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:06 am

New rules around the tmo and tightening of rules in general should mean it's not an issue or as much of one.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:07 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Have you got any link to any story that says Umaga apologised at the time? "Dont be a sook Brian" isnt exactly an apology.

Only in New Zealand would they make Umaga the victim when he smashed someones collarbone and left them sidelined for 13 months with a potentially career ending injury. Kiwi logic.

Graham Henry came across as a massive plonker in the whole affair.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10465954

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:10 am

"I'm sorry for what happened to you" isn't an apology, for goodness sake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2322111/Tana-Umaga-reopens-Brian-ODriscoll-feud.html

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:12 am

Umaga is a scumbag as are the fans who continue to defend him.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:14 am

If anything that article is even more disturbing.

"He said he'd gone to hospital. Again, I didn't think anything of it."

Classy.

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:15 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Have you got any link to any story that says Umaga apologised at the time? "Dont be a sook Brian" isnt exactly an apology.

Only in New Zealand would they make Umaga the victim when he smashed someones collarbone and left them sidelined for 13 months with a potentially career ending injury. Kiwi logic.

Graham Henry came across as a massive plonker in the whole affair.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10465954

Thanks for that. That account from Umaga is kind of embarassing for him. He completely plays the victim in literally everything he says as he did in any of the pressers he did before. That's pretty much the sole reason people still talk about it. poor Tana Umaga. It must be so tough on him being criticised for breaking someones collarbone.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:16 am

The All Blacks could learn a thing from BOD, he's a guy of pure class.

by TightHEAD Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:17 am

Great to see the players who have been in camp the longest getting a run out.

by eirebilly Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 am

TightHEAD wrote:Great to see the players who have been in camp the longest getting a run out.

Am actually surprised but very happy for Laidlaw to get a start.

by beshocked Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 am

Pete C the reality is that NZers in general have blamed BOD when he's the victim and turned Umaga and Mealamu into heroes.

Nothing heroic about 2 players spear tackling another - no punishment either.

At least in general when English players have sinned they've been punished. E.g. Ashton and Hartley.

by eirebilly Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:21 am

beshocked wrote:Pete C the reality is that NZers in general have blamed BOD when he's the victim and turned Umaga and Mealamu into heroes.

Nothing heroic about 2 players spear tackling another - no punishment either.

At least in general when English players have sinned they've been punished. E.g. Ashton and Hartley.

I could really go on a WUM here Very Happy

by Guest Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:27 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I'm sorry for what happened to you" isn't an apology, for goodness sake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2322111/Tana-Umaga-reopens-Brian-ODriscoll-feud.html

If you're a sook it's probably all you deserve

by TightHEAD Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:28 am

For those complaining about my avatar I hope the new one helps solve the issues arising from my love of England.

by Guest Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:43 am

What was wrong with it Tighthead?

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:17 am

ebop wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I'm sorry for what happened to you" isn't an apology, for goodness sake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2322111/Tana-Umaga-reopens-Brian-ODriscoll-feud.html
If you're a sook it's probably all you deserve

Funny enough, the biggest sooks I've encountered on here have been NZ fans. You're alright though, ebop. A funny WUM from time to time.

by Guest Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:24 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
ebop wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I'm sorry for what happened to you" isn't an apology, for goodness sake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2322111/Tana-Umaga-reopens-Brian-ODriscoll-feud.html
If you're a sook it's probably all you deserve

Funny enough, the biggest sooks I've encountered on here have been NZ fans. You're alright though, ebop. A funny WUM from time to time.

Lol, I can be a sook sometimes

And I apologise in advance Wink

by aucklandlaurie Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:16 pm

beshocked wrote:Pete C the reality is that NZers in general have blamed BOD when he's the victim and turned Umaga and Mealamu into heroes.

Nothing heroic about 2 players spear tackling another - no punishment either.

At least in general when English players have sinned they've been punished. E.g. Ashton and Hartley.

There was no spear tackle.

by Poorfour Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:33 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
There was no spear tackle.

Technically, you're right. It was off the ball, so it wasn't a tackle. Whatever it was, it wasn't pretty, it was deliberately dangerous and it wasn't remotely legal. The way it was handled by the officials was appalling.

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https://www.606v2.com/viewtopic.forum?t=65832

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