Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

by **George Carlin** Sun 04 Jun 2017, 9:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June - Page 4 Auckla10

Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June - Page 4 Lions_10

Blues v British & Irish Lions
7 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

19 June 1993: Auckland 23 - 18 British & Irish Lions

18 May 1983: Auckland 13 - 12 British & Irish Lions

23 June 1977: Auckland 15 - 34 British & Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Blues
15 Michael Collins
14 Matt Duffie
13 George Moala
12 Sonny Bill Williams
11 Rieko Ioane
10 Stephen Perofeta
09 Augustine Pulu

08 Steven Luatua
07 Blake Gibson
06 Akira Ioane
05 Scott Scrafton
04 Gerard Cowley-Tuioti
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parson
01 Ofa Tu'ungafasi

16 Hame Faiva
17 Alex Hodgman
18 Sione Mafileo
19 Patrick Tuipulotu
20 Kara Pryor
21 Sam Nock
22 Ihaia West
23 TJ Faiane/Melani Nanai

British & Irish Lions

Halfpenny; Nowell, Payne, Henshaw, Daly; Biggar, Webb; McGrath, Owens (captain), Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Haskell, Tipuric, Stander

Replacements: Best, Marler, Sinckler, Henderson, O'Mahony, Laidlaw, Sexton, L Williams

C. PREVIEW

by Winzer Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:26 pm

"Are you really saying that he was fit to play for the Lions in 2013 (which is meant to be the best players from 4 nations) and was deserving of a call up over current international wingers?"

No, he was asked to help out because he was in Japan and they couldn't get anyone else out there quickly enough. That doesn't mean he deserves that epithet.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:28 pm

eirebilly wrote:
robbo277 wrote:

Although I don't personally see him as a good fit there, I think his first couple of England appearances saw him coming on at 12. Could do the job in an emergency.

I said earlier (maybe on another thread) that I feel that Daly could make a good playmaking 12 for the Lions. To me, 12 is a key position when playing the AB's as I feel if you try to bosh them they will simply out run you. Play to out run them and they may be taken aback. When Ireland beat the AB's, they set a backline that caught the AB's somewhat cold.

You simply cant be predictable when playing the AB's.

You could be right. He always strikes me as a better runner than a playmaker though, and I'd rather see him in the wider channels where he can make his pace pay.

With a shortage of 12s (2 compared to 3x 13s), it's possible we could see him start a game at 12.

by **RDW** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

Winzer wrote:"Are you really saying that he was fit to play for the Lions in 2013 (which is meant to be the best players from 4 nations) and was deserving of a call up over current international wingers?"

No, he was asked to help out because he was in Japan and they couldn't get anyone else out there quickly enough. That doesn't mean he deserves that epithet.

Scotland were in Australia and Fiji and Wales were in Japan - hardly far away to call up a current professional rugby player who was selected for an international summer tour.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

Winzer wrote:No, he was asked to help out because he was in Japan and they couldn't get anyone else out there quickly enough. That doesn't mean he deserves that epithet.

They could and did get others out. Christian Wade and Brad Barritt were called up on the same Saturday as Williams and played in the same midweek match the following Tuesday. They flew over from Argentina. Williams was not the only other option by any means.

by eirebilly Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:36 pm

Although I feel that Farrell would be the best playmaking 12, I think he would be more valuable at 10. Especially since there are doubts over Sexton's fitness and form and Biggar's ability.

Te'o, to me, is too one dimensional (good at making ground but not exactly a linking 12).

Henshaw, always has been a 13 to me but has also been coached into the bosh 12 mode but I still do believe that he can be the playmaking 12.

Funnily enough, I also think that Payne could make a good playmaking 12...

by eirebilly Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:38 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Winzer wrote:No, he was asked to help out because he was in Japan and they couldn't get anyone else out there quickly enough. That doesn't mean he deserves that epithet.
They could and did get others out. Christian Wade and Brad Barritt were called up on the same Saturday as Williams and played in the same midweek match the following Tuesday. They flew over from Argentina. Williams was not the only other option by any means.

Yeah but they would not have got the WRFU the bonus money for being selected for the Lions...

Sorry mikey, just on a little WUM there Run

by **RDW** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:43 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Winzer wrote:No, he was asked to help out because he was in Japan and they couldn't get anyone else out there quickly enough. That doesn't mean he deserves that epithet.
They could and did get others out. Christian Wade and Brad Barritt were called up on the same Saturday as Williams and played in the same midweek match the following Tuesday. They flew over from Argentina. Williams was not the only other option by any means.

This.

I think Shane Williams is a legend of the game and the use of Shane 'feckin' Williams was because he had retired from Pro Rugby and it was a bizzare call to bring him into the squad, if even for 1 game (which pretty much everyone agreed with at the time!)

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:51 pm

Am I allowed to mention "Tom Fecking Court" ??

by **RDW** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Am I allowed to mention "Tom Fecking Court" ??

Yes. Yes you are!

I also remember being annoyed that Brad feckin Barritt and Billy fecking Twelvetrees were called up over Matt Scott - at the time Scott was on superb form and played a starring role in our wins over Australia and Fiji that summer. It was clear that these players were only ever going to play one game and would be holding tackle bags for the rest of the tour however.

Oh wait, I forget that win against Australia didn't count as it as raining... Whistle

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:08 pm

Ah but they rated Barritt and 36 so highly the flew them over from Argentina. Court got in because he was on holiday in Melbourne at the time Very Happy

Mind you Matt Feckin Stevens made the 2013 tour because he can play a guitar.

by Scottrf Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Ah but they rated Barritt and 36 so highly the flew them over from Argentina. Court got in because he was on holiday in Melbourne at the time

Mind you Matt Feckin Stevens made the 2013 tour because he can play a guitar.

And because he could supply the crack.

Sorry, I meant craic. Honest.

by kingelderfield Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:31 pm

Back to the game in hand. I think it would be very easy to say that this game is pivotal to the outcome of the tour, that it will set and determine the trend of things to come for the remaining matches.

Undoubtedly it will provide an illuminated expression of the nature of the competition, but could it be a tour breaker?

I suppose that all depends on the performance and outcome on the scoreboard, for example if the Lions get walloped by 30+ points then the improbable almost becomes impossible - almost.

If we can however stand up and battle then much can be gained and standards can be set.

by **RDW** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:45 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Ah but they rated Barritt and 36 so highly the flew them over from Argentina. Court got in because he was on holiday in Melbourne at the time

Mind you Matt Feckin Stevens made the 2013 tour because he can play a guitar.

And because he could supply the crack.

Sorry, I meant craic. Honest.

(but with my Admin head on warning

)

by emack2 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:47 pm

Just one match played and the Lions supporters are reverting to individual
countries.Something that Gatland is trying to avoid individual sides may
well achieve more.
BUT given the poor organization and 3 matches in 10days that is
not a given only time will tell.

by Guest Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:53 pm

Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 1:55 pm

ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

??

by munkian Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:12 pm

ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

Only in the press. If a someone wins they are British, if they lose they are Welsh/Scottish/NIrish.

If an English athlete wins then they are English, if they lose they are British.

by Scottrf Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:13 pm

munkian wrote:
ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

Only in the press. If a someone wins they are British, if they lose they are Welsh/Scottish/NIrish.

If an English athlete wins then they are English, if they lose they are British.

https://www.stir.ac.uk/news/2015/11/myth-that-andy-murray%E2%80%99s-nationality-is-linked-to-success-smashed/

by Guest Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:17 pm

Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:
ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

Only in the press. If a someone wins they are British, if they lose they are Welsh/Scottish/NIrish.

If an English athlete wins then they are English, if they lose they are British.

https://www.stir.ac.uk/news/2015/11/myth-that-andy-murray%E2%80%99s-nationality-is-linked-to-success-smashed/

So when Andy wins gold the English go, meh?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:20 pm

It'll happen for a few people everywhere ebop. No nation will react as one amazingly.

by Guest Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:25 pm

Yeah true 7.5, there's a lot of history over your ways. Mind blowing almost. Just trying to tease out a vibe but there'll never be a complete answer. Some like the Lions. Some don't. We love the Lions for what it's worth. The challenge.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:32 pm

ebop wrote:Yeah true 7.5, there's a lot of history over your ways. Mind blowing almost. Just trying to tease out a vibe but there'll never be a complete answer. Some like the Lions. Some don't. We love the Lions for what it's worth. The challenge.

My dad and his friend went over in 2013, his friend told me that there was absolutely no reaction in Australia to O'Driscoll being dropped (from the team, not on his head Wink

) from pretty much anyone out there, other than "fair enough".

The internet era has a habit of highlighting vocal minorities, and these opinions can be mistaken for mainstream belief.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:34 pm

munkian wrote:
ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

Only in the press. If a someone wins they are British, if they lose they are Welsh/Scottish/NIrish.

If an English athlete wins then they are ~~English~~ probably from Yorkshire, if they lose they are not ~~British~~.

Just fixed that for you.

by munkian Mon 05 Jun 2017, 2:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
ebop wrote:Is there a similar beef during the Olympics?

Only in the press. If a someone wins they are British, if they lose they are Welsh/Scottish/NIrish.

If an English athlete wins then they are ~~English~~ probably from Yorkshire, if they lose they are not ~~British~~.

Just fixed that for you.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:08 pm

The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

by kingelderfield Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:29 pm

TightHEAD wrote:The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

No tbh I'm not so sure. In comparative terms they're the weakness NZ franchise and I don't rate their head coach much. In fact they've had a succession of poor coaching appointments, however I wouldn't describe them as 'gash'.

If we can get into their young flyhalf and if Williams (if he makes the field) has a poor reaction to his injury then there maybe some weakness in their link play between forwards and backs and yes throughout the season they've been the least consistent, but 'gash'?

Honestly they've got some wonderfully talented players that will be exceedingly keen to use this opportunity to promote their individual AB's selections.

This game presents an exciting challenge, which is exactly what the Lions need.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:33 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

No tbh I'm not so sure. In comparative terms they're the weakness NZ franchise and I don't rate their head coach much. In fact they've had a succession of poor coaching appointments, however I wouldn't describe them as 'gash'.

If we can get into their young flyhalf and if Williams (if he makes the field) has a poor reaction to his injury then there maybe some weakness in their link play between forwards and backs and yes throughout the season they've been the least consistent, but 'gash'?

Honestly they've got some wonderfully talented players that will be exceedingly keen to use this opportunity to promote their individual AB's selections.

This game presents an exciting challenge, which is exactly what the Lions need.

The Blues have been gash for years. This year though they've only lost 1 game to non-NZ opposition. Granted they haven't beaten any of the other NZ teams - but since the other 4 NZ teams are probably in the top 7 club teams in the world (along with the Golden Lions, Sarries & ASM) ...

by eirebilly Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:35 pm

TightHEAD wrote:The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

Sure, weren't the scratch NZPB team supposed to be gash Whistle

by SamTheQuin Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:38 pm

Looking forward to seeing the Ioane brothers, both look incredible players.

Is SBW in or is he having to pass a fitness test?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:40 pm

SamTheQuin wrote:Looking forward to seeing the Ioane brothers, both look incredible players.

Is SBW in or is he having to pass a fitness test?

SBW is in subject to fitness

by kingelderfield Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:42 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

No tbh I'm not so sure. In comparative terms they're the weakness NZ franchise and I don't rate their head coach much. In fact they've had a succession of poor coaching appointments, however I wouldn't describe them as 'gash'.

If we can get into their young flyhalf and if Williams (if he makes the field) has a poor reaction to his injury then there maybe some weakness in their link play between forwards and backs and yes throughout the season they've been the least consistent, but 'gash'?

Honestly they've got some wonderfully talented players that will be exceedingly keen to use this opportunity to promote their individual AB's selections.

This game presents an exciting challenge, which is exactly what the Lions need.

The Blues have been gash for years. This year though they've only lost 1 game to non-NZ opposition. Granted they haven't beaten any of the other NZ teams - but since the other 4 NZ teams are probably in the top 7 club teams in the world (along with the Golden Lions, Sarries & ASM) ...

Yes yes its all relative, perhaps 'gash' in NZ eyes, or an incredibly exciting challenge for the BIL in a one off game scenario?

Realistically if the Blues are 'gash' then the vast majority of all other S15 and professional club sides are either mediocre or simply rubbish which I don't think is the case.

NZ standards I accept are very high.

by munkian Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

by aucklandlaurie Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:50 pm

.
I dont understand this word "gash".

Does it have some alternate meaning? what is its language of origin? can you use it in a sentence?

To me a "gash" is a cut or laceration.

by munkian Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:.
I dont understand this word "gash".

Does it have some alternate meaning? what is its language of origin? can you use it in a sentence?

To me a "gash" is a cut or laceration.

Axe wound, bearded clam etc

by Scottrf Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:52 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:.
I dont understand this word "gash".

Does it have some alternate meaning? what is its language of origin? can you use it in a sentence?

To me a "gash" is a cut or laceration.

It's also used for female genitalia, but as an insult to mean the equivalent of rubbish.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:55 pm

munkian wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:.
I dont understand this word "gash".

Does it have some alternate meaning? what is its language of origin? can you use it in a sentence?

To me a "gash" is a cut or laceration.

Axe wound, bearded clam etc

So its a cut but your just inserting an n in between the u and the t?

by munkian Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:57 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
munkian wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:.
I dont understand this word "gash".

Does it have some alternate meaning? what is its language of origin? can you use it in a sentence?

To me a "gash" is a cut or laceration.

Axe wound, bearded clam etc

So its a cut but your just inserting an n in between the u and the t?

Indeed

by eirebilly Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:59 pm

munkian wrote:Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

None at all, in fact in my opinion (prior to injury) he was the leading hooker in the NH and seems to be a natural leader.

Really hope he puts in a good shift after his injury as I feel he will be needed against the AB's.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:00 pm

You'd only really have Itoje or haskell as the other options for captain really. Gatland wants to start everyone so just means george will start Saturday injury permitting.

by BamBam Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:03 pm

He wouldn't immediately strike me as a captain candidate (does he do it for Scarlets?)

I would have gone with Stander or Itoje personally but no issue with it, midweek captain this early on doesn't matter much

by eirebilly Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:04 pm

Is Ken Owens the midweek captain or just captain for this game?

by robbo277 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:04 pm

munkian wrote:Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

He's not a bad pick at all, certainly when you consider there aren't a huge host of good options in the line-up.

Can't speak with much authority on the Irish or other Welsh players, but Cole, Lawes, Daly and Nowell don't do much captaining. Haskell has done for Wasps, but was a late call to tour, so possibly not the best shout. Itoje obviously captained England Under-20s, but I don't think he's done the job at senior level for his club.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:06 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:The Blues are gash, Lions by 25pts.

No tbh I'm not so sure. In comparative terms they're the weakness NZ franchise and I don't rate their head coach much. In fact they've had a succession of poor coaching appointments, however I wouldn't describe them as 'gash'.

If we can get into their young flyhalf and if Williams (if he makes the field) has a poor reaction to his injury then there maybe some weakness in their link play between forwards and backs and yes throughout the season they've been the least consistent, but 'gash'?

Honestly they've got some wonderfully talented players that will be exceedingly keen to use this opportunity to promote their individual AB's selections.

This game presents an exciting challenge, which is exactly what the Lions need.

The Blues have been gash for years. This year though they've only lost 1 game to non-NZ opposition. Granted they haven't beaten any of the other NZ teams - but since the other 4 NZ teams are probably in the top 7 club teams in the world (along with the Golden Lions, Sarries & ASM) ...

Yes yes its all relative, perhaps 'gash' in NZ eyes, or an incredibly exciting challenge for the BIL in a one off game scenario?

Realistically if the Blues are 'gash' then the vast majority of all other S15 and professional club sides are either mediocre or simply rubbish which I don't think is the case.

NZ standards I accept are very high.

Sorry mate, I meant gash up until this year* - over 2012-2015 they placed 12th, 10th, 10th, 14th in Super 15 then 11th in Super 18 last year. This year if the Brumbies weren't guaranteed a spot in the playoffs as top Aussie qualifier the Blues would be looking at a decent chance for 8th place overall, instead they're guaranteed 9th.

*Arguably they improved last year to a level above "gash" too

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:08 pm

munkian wrote:Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

Who was it who captained the Scarlets to those famous victories? Wink

Nah I have no problem with Ken Owens captaining the Lions. He is a great player and fully deserves this honour. I wish him well.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:14 pm

munkian wrote:Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

To be fair, Owens did not really contribute to those play-off wins. I have no problem with him as midweek captain - but could it mean he is now not a front runner for the test berth?

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:28 pm

Gatland does know he could pick a non-Welsh midweek captain.

Does the WRU get extra money if their players are Captains?

by robbo277 Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:32 pm

eirebilly wrote:Is Ken Owens the midweek captain or just captain for this game?

Just this game I believe. He might get more, but it depends what team he plays in next.

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Does anyone else have an issue with Ken Owens being a mid week Captain ?

Some of the comments I've seen on the official Lions posts are laughable.

His team just won the Pro12 with two great away wins in Ireland ffs.

I can't think of a hooker in better form in the UK/Ireland - Jamie George doesn't even start for England so lacks the experience IMHO

To be fair, Owens did not really contribute to those play-off wins. I have no problem with him as midweek captain - but could it mean he is now not a front runner for the test berth?

As above, I think this captaincy is a one-off. If Owens smashes it I think his next start will be against the Maori, and then the test series.

If you look at the last tour; O'Driscoll captained the first two midweek games, but when he shifted to the Saturday team ahead of the test series, Best and Parling were named as captains for the next two fixtures - although Parling was replaced by Lydiate when he was called up to the second test squad.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:58 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Gatland does know he could pick a non-Welsh midweek captain.

Does the WRU get extra money if their players are Captains?

by Scottrf Mon 05 Jun 2017, 5:00 pm

On that note, forgot to congratulate AWJ and Warburton on their first victory vs Kiwi opposition!

by Gwlad Mon 05 Jun 2017, 5:02 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Henderson is one player that just marked himself out as a midweek player; there is no time for an opportunity for second chances here, he played poorly against a scratch team and was beaten for the try. Not a Lions tests lock. Hogg also seemed ponderous. Clearly the test 2nd row should be Itoje and Kruis - we can't allow the lineout to fall apart as it did in 05 - I'd have AWJ on the bench as he needs to start another game otherwise Lawes may be the better option for impact, though he has been questionable when recycling possession.

Gwlad

Henderson may not of been that great in this match. But in all honesty AWJ was pants all the way through.

So if you say Henderson has marked himself out of the midweek games, then surely you must also rule out AWJ. Unless it is because he is Welsh is the reason you are defending him, and his performance. AWJ should not be given any more chances to prove himself than any one else.

I do agree the first starting test locks should be Itoje and Kruis.

You have written him off since before he was even selected. If anyone, but especially you, takes the trouble to watch he was excellent at the breakdown and in defence in the 2nd half, a trademark of his.

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