England tour to Argentina

beshocked wrote:


cascough a 10-12-13 of Farrell-T'eo and Davies is lacking a bit of creativity though. Too much boshing IMO.

Any more lacking than Farrel Barrit Tuilagi?

According to Gatlands latest outburst Teo was slected because of his offloading game and footwork, not to be a bash merchant.

We will see.

I think fans as a whole have a tendency to see big players as one dimensional because that's what they're expecting. When if you think about a player like Nonu, he had lots of strings to his bow.

Not every big player will be a Nonu, but neither will they just be looking to run straight into traffic. They'll either use intelligent running angles or a bit of footwork to get onto a shoulder, and then power through and possibly offload.

Gooseberry fair point but somehow Barritt and Manu for that one game managed to play really well together.


robbo Nonu had Conrad Smith outside him and Carter at 10 generally - it helps....

I wouldn't say Tindall was world class but with Greenwood in the centres partnering him and the England pack and backs he was effective.

It's about building the right partnership.

LondonTiger wrote:Lancaster inherited a right mess.

England made significant progress initially (first two years) but then stagnated a touch and of course the WC was not good. In hindsight something should have happened with the coaching staff after the 2013 defeat in Cardiff.

Jones inherited a much better set-up than Lancaster did, and surely some credit is owed to Lancaster for that?

I think you make a good point as far as it goes.

With regards to Jones my only concern is that he runs out of steam?

We obviously reacted to the disappointment of the WC catastrophe, at a time when other countries were recovering/rebuilding, while simultaneously benefiting from a new coaching set up and the flowering of the young Saracens players and others.

I've read it a few times on the roar site how Jones reduces a side over time and of course that could be argued about his Wallabies team. Personally I believe Jones is a better coach now and is a god send for us, however one man alone cannot overcome the challenges that face us (player burn out/length of season, competing club/country priorities and playing styles, the generally poor coaching in the premiership, the skill levels and abilities of the players etc.) and so without greater unity and cohesion between club and country, I think we are unlikely to win the next WC. All that said I think our chances are far in advance of where they were 2015.

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry fair point but somehow Barritt and Manu for that one game managed to play really well together.


robbo Nonu had Conrad Smith outside him and Carter at 10 generally - it helps....

I wouldn't say Tindall was world class but with Greenwood in the centres partnering him and the England pack and backs he was effective.

It's about building the right partnership.

It's a good point, but would Nonu look good with Farrell and Davies around him? Probably.

I think Te'o and Davies could work. They both offload and although they don't both have jinking feet, if they can get the defenders making arm tackles that offloading will come into play more. Depends whether they get front foot ball and how the back 3 track them.

The England match is live on BBC 2 isn't it?

GeordieFalcon wrote:The England match is live on BBC 2 isn't it?

That's what I've read.

8.30pm I think GeordieFalcon.

What do people think about Brown at FB these days? I'm a Quins fan but not sure how much longer he can be the answer for England, Woodward the Bristol (now Gloucester) guy looks excellent, but not sure if he's fast enough. Watson the best bet, or Daly as long-term answer?

Yep, it's on BBC2. Programme starts at 8.00pm.

Commentary from Eddie Butler and Andy Robinson
Analysis from SCW and Guscott

Oh well, you can't have everything

SamTheQuin wrote:8.30pm I think GeordieFalcon.

What do people think about Brown at FB these days? I'm a Quins fan but not sure how much longer he can be the answer for England, Woodward the Bristol (now Gloucester) guy looks excellent, but not sure if he's fast enough. Watson the best bet, or Daly as long-term answer?

He'd definitely in the twilight years, but watching the Barbarians match he still does an important job. He did a lot to organise the back division, be the last line of defense etc. He does provide leadership and has a significant presence, but I don't think he will be doing as much damage running the ball back as he used to.

Still it was exciting to see Haley come in and look so comfortable on the ball.

Well ill be watching it with my two birds.....

Speckled Hen and Wild Turkey

Team:

Brown
Yarde
Slade
Lozowski
May
Ford
Care
Hughes
Tom Curry
Wilson
Ewells
Launchbury
Williams
Hartley
Genge

Reps:
Singleton
Mullan
Collier
Isiekwe
Armand
Maunder
Francis
Solomona

Good team. 3 classy ball players should see some tries I reckon.

Sorry I'm biased but I'm genuinely chuffed for Mark Wilson. He's been sensational for us consistently for years. Finally he's getting his cap!

Pack looks good...strong aggressive front row. Good back 5.

I'll be interested to see how the backs go. He's gone for a Farrell copy at 12!

Tough on Collier to be benched after a good performance against the BaaBaas. I'm interested to see how Williams goes though. He is a big guy at 6'4". Taller props have struggled in international scrums, especially without the 'hit' to use their weight as much. Will be interesting to see how he goes against the Argentina scrum.

Very happy to see Genge start ahead of Mullan though.

Genuinely very exciting team. Maybe a bit too lightweight and I think we will miss Robshaw, but they could well cause some havoc with the ball.

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Lancaster did ok up until the WC. He lost his bottle and didn't seem to know what direction to take the team. He won't come back, I'm pretty confident in that, why would he?

It's pretty clear from the history of the RWC since 2003 that you really need to have coached at an RWC to perform well at one. Johnson hadn't, Lancaster hadn't, even Graham Henry stuffed it up at the first attempt.

Lancaster has to work his way back up - I would imagine he is targeting taking on the Head Coach role at a minor nation post 2019 and targeting a bigger one after that. Whether he gets a second shot at the England job will depend on whether Eddie really does leave after 2019 and how well the likes of other contenders like Borthwick and O'Shea perform between now and then. My guess is that Lancaster would need longer - and a stint as a head coach elsewhere - to earn another crack at England. But he's still under 50 and I could see him coming back into contention post 2023. I can also see him wanting to do it: he's an ambitious guy and he's got unfinished business with England.

I think that's right. Lancaster would have to do well at club/regions/franchise level, and potentially do a decent job for another international side, but he's still young and ambitious. 2023 would be the earliest opportunity for him, but I don't think he has burnt his bridges with the RFU. I'm assuming Baxter will take over in 2019 but we will see.

Have to say I really like the look of this side and love the fact that although he's kept a few old stagers in Launchbury, Care, Hartley & Brown, most of the rest have 5 caps or less and there's LOADS of debutants. I reckon we could see some useful players gaining experience and we could well see a few of them in the 6N next year.

Exciting times.

Mr Bounce wrote:Have to say I really like the look of this side and love the fact that although he's kept a few old stagers in Launchbury, Care, Hartley & Brown, most of the rest have 5 caps or less and there's LOADS of debutants. I reckon we could see some useful players gaining experience and we could well see a few of them in the 6N next year.

Exciting times.

The other guys are the 'correct' side of 30 but Launchbury is only 26

Weak side, would be quite surprised with a win. Got to be one of the poorest midfields we've put out for years, neither are good enough for me.

I fail to see where your pessimism is coming from pooly!

[quote="Mr Bounce"]Have to say I really like the look of this side and love the fact that although he's kept a few old stagers in Launchbury, Care, Hartley & Brown, most of the rest have 5 caps or less and there's LOADS of debutants. I reckon we could see some useful players gaining experience and we could well see a few of them in the 6N next year.

Exciting times.[/quote]

Share your optimism there Mr Bounce. Some really good players there, I don't necessarily see it as winnable tests as Argentina look like they have gone full strength, but Curry was great against the BaaBaas and I am looking forward to seeing Solomona. Not sure about May at the moment and would have preferred a different 12/13 combination but Slade has been playing well for Exeter and I can't think of another option there at the moment, Marchant one for the future but needs a big inside centre next to him.

SamTheQuin wrote:
Share your optimism there Mr Bounce. Some really good players there, I don't necessarily see it as winnable tests as Argentina look like they have gone full strength, but Curry was great against the BaaBaas and I am looking forward to seeing Solomona. Not sure about May at the moment and would have preferred a different 12/13 combination but Slade has been playing well for Exeter and I can't think of another option there at the moment, Marchant one for the future but needs a big inside centre next to him.

Was it not the other Curry that played against the Barbarians?
May has been in very good form for Gloucester and looked solid enough for England last season (most notably against Argentina when Daly was sent off)
Slade did not make Exeter's starting XV in the end of season run in, and I agree that Marchant looks good for the future. Would have like to see Sam James included, as he went well against the Barbarians, with either Lozowski or Slade on the bench instead of Francis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I fail to see where your pessimism is coming from pooly!

I don't rate Ewels in the slightest and both midfield options don't inspire confidence. Low is no 12 and Slade doesn't even start for Exeter does he? We basically have 3 FH's 10/12/13, no gas or physicality from any position. Odd choice.

I think slade and Lozowski ooze class. Neither is exactly slow. It'll cause argentina all sorts of headaches. I'm very optimistic about almost all selections. Once solomona comes on it gets better. I do think looking at the bench you can see we're weakened.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I fail to see where your pessimism is coming from pooly!

I don't rate Ewels in the slightest and both midfield options don't inspire confidence. Low is no 12 and Slade doesn't even start for Exeter does he? We basically have 3 FH's 10/12/13, no gas or physicality from any position. Odd choice.

I think that's quite a lazy appraisal. Lozowski did actually exist before he burst onto your screens for Saracens. At Wasps, and even before that for Carnegie. He earned his first senior appearances at full back and demonstrated genuine pace time and time again. He's also showed his outside break and pace off for Saracens on a number of occasions this season. Slade's hardly slow. I'd certainly put him as quicker than Farrell.

Physicality is the same as it's been whenever we've picked Farrell and Joseph. Neither Farrell nor Joseph are big carriers. Defensively, both Slade and Lozowski are quite capable of putting in big hits. I've never seen Slade take a backwards step and Lozowski has been praised many times this season for his physicality in defence.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Weak side, would be quite surprised with a win. Got to be one of the poorest midfields we've put out for years, neither are good enough for me.

Not sure its a weak side Sarge.

What are you not happy with?

As to the midfield...id really liked to have seen James in there...

It is the same curry ie tom. Though if we play one and he empties his tank after 40 i assume we can just swap them.no.questions asked. Dean Richards just confirmed we can.

Not sure its a weak side Sarge.

What are you not happy with?

It's the remit of SNCO's to keep everybody's feet on the ground and not to allow the Ruperts to get too giddy.

The good Sgt is just warning you that it's all a bit new and no plan survives contact etc etc

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is the same curry ie tom. Though if we play one and he empties his tank after 40 i assume we can just swap them.no.questions asked. Dean Richards just confirmed we can.

I am getting these damned twins confused. I could have sworn Tom was the original choice on the bench and was then replaced by Ben at the last minute.

I wholly endorse the plan you suggest

Those wingers..... Though saying that perhaps May will feel confident vs Argentina, I guess this game isn't in the 6 nations or rugby world cup so he might play okay/well.

The positive is that Slade and Lozowski can at least pass the ball unlike our full back these days.

Ah for gods sake Beshocked.

Well I like May, think hes a cracking winger. And Yarde is ok and will do a decent job this tour.

No problems.

TrailApe wrote:

Not sure its a weak side Sarge.

What are you not happy with?

It's the remit of SNCO's to keep everybody's feet on the ground and not to allow the Ruperts to get too giddy.

The good Sgt is just warning you that it's all a bit new and no plan survives contact etc etc

Exactly TA!

On a plus point beshocked it's not on sky so you get to watch it.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is the same curry ie tom. Though if we play one and he empties his tank after 40 i assume we can just swap them.no.questions asked. Dean Richards just confirmed we can.

I am getting these damned twins confused. I could have sworn Tom was the original choice on the bench and was then replaced by Ben at the last minute.

I wholly endorse the plan you suggest

I put foward the twins should have new names hence forth:

Tom Curry - Tikka Masala
Ben Curry - Bhuna

And solomona comes gets 2 quick tries and starts the 2nd test anyway!

Fair enough Geordiefalcon. If that's how you feel. Despite May being dropped numerous times he keeps making it back into the team....

At least it's vs Argentina, a team May was comfortable with facing last time.

Oh the repetitive circles we doth move in.....

Yes it is how I feel.

Johnny May is a cracking winger...the reason hes been dropped is because Nowell (who has also been dropped several times) and Watson are classy wingers as well.
They all offer different things.

And I know you despise him, but Yarde is solid for this tour.

If he wasn't then Jones wouldn't have selected him and would have selected some young kid....

And not much point moaning about the wingers selected for the test when excluding the crocked novice from LI they are all we have out there.

Tour has started, no point arguing about who should have been on the plane.

Nathan earle is over there I think.

Surely this is a development tour? What's the point of Yarde on the wing?

You say he's solid but it's a waste of a spot iMO - should try out Solomona or Earle.

I know you'll say it's because I want Earle - no I just don't one of the most overrated wingers in England, Yarde starting for England when this is a development tour and there is a golden opportunity to try out new options.

May I can understand despite not being ideal.  

Nowell has been dropped undeservedly I feel.

I just it amusing that picking an 18 year old in the backrow is applauded but getting rid of Yarde - no don't do that!

Yarde is a natural treasure, a winger of the highest calibre supposedly.

beshocked wrote:Yarde is a natural treasure, a winger of the highest calibre supposedly.

Presume that's below deity?

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yarde is a natural treasure, a winger of the highest calibre supposedly.

Presume that's below deity?

Yes, wouldn't say Yarde is deity status yet.

I am interested to see what some of the players picked for actual development purpose can do despite the disappointing selection of Yarde.

How is it someone writes solid and decent enough and you read natural treasure (sic)?

cascough wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I fail to see where your pessimism is coming from pooly!

I don't rate Ewels in the slightest and both midfield options don't inspire confidence. Low is no 12 and Slade doesn't even start for Exeter does he? We basically have 3 FH's 10/12/13, no gas or physicality from any position. Odd choice.

I think that's quite a lazy appraisal. Lozowski did actually exist before he burst onto your screens for Saracens. At Wasps, and even before that for Carnegie. He earned his first senior appearances at full back and demonstrated genuine pace time and time again. He's also showed his outside break and pace off for Saracens on a number of occasions this season. Slade's hardly slow. I'd certainly put him as quicker than Farrell.

Physicality is the same as it's been whenever we've picked Farrell and Joseph. Neither Farrell nor Joseph are big carriers. Defensively, both Slade and Lozowski are quite capable of putting in big hits. I've never seen Slade take a backwards step and Lozowski has been praised many times this season for his physicality in defence.

Lazy because you don't agree? Thanks.

Lozowski should be nowhere near the England squad imo, but he is so I'm within my rights to pass judgement. He's a decent AP 10 but he's not an Int 12. He's lighweight and nowhere as physical as Farrell. A Ford/Lozowski axis has to be the weakest defensively in Int rugby.

I like Slade but he's not in great form and would be better with a more physical option.

Where is our get out in the backs? Our go to man if under pressure? At least Farrell has the ability to take the ball into contact, who has it in this set-up? Devoto or James should be at 12 imo.

I think Earle looks a real talent but I have to agree with Yarde starting ahead of him.

Changing tact slightly, Ben Curry will be the youngest player to make his England debut since Wilkinson and youngest forward since 1912.

A small part of me wishes the older Curry was starting and the younger Curry was on the bench, just to get the statos (okay me) comparing the time difference of their births and the time difference of then taking to the pitch to see who got capped younger!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nathan earle is over there I think.

Aha, the penny drops.

Ha. Would have been good robbo. You held the record for 44 min but you were beaten be 44 seconds.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How is it someone writes solid and decent enough and you read natural treasure (sic)?

Yes I do read national treasure - you are pleased with the selection.

I am not sure it's understood what a development tour is for.

Solid enough for a development tour?

A back three of May,Yarde and Brown is lacklustre IMO.

2 of those selections are understandable in the circumstances with a relatively inexperienced team but not all 3.


Sgt Pooly I actually agree, that I don't think Lozowski is suitable for centre, I do think he's not as frail as you believe though.

Ford is lightweight, Lozowski is not comparably.