England tour to Argentina

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Catt is a LH.

How I view EJ's pecking order (excluding known injured players, but including Lions possibilities):

LH: Mako, Marler, Mullan, Genge, Catt
Hooker: Hartley, George, Taylor, LCD
TH: Cole, Sinkler, Hill, Brookes
Locks: Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Ewells
Flankers: Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Harrison, Underhill, Williams
No8: BillyV, Hughes, Beaumont
SH: Youngs, Care, Robson
FH: Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Cipriani
IC: Farrell, Te'o, Slade
OC: JJ, Daly, Te'o
Wings: Watson, Daly, Nowell, May, Yarde, Roku
FB: Brown, Haley, Goode

I reckon Argies might push a side made up from this squad at home, will certainly be close games!

Goode? I really do not think he will be in the squad to be honest.

And if Brown is on the Lions tour,  not sure who would be at Full Back.

majesticimperialman wrote:Goode? I really do not think he will be in the squad to be honest.

And if Brown is on the Lions tour,  not sure who would be at Full Back.

Brown will be full back on tour and not a British Irish Lion.

Come on you can't be this ignorant about your own side.

Last time out in 2013 Argentina rested some players ahead of the Championship. After England's relatively untroubled series win I'd hope they put out a stronger side, especially as their squad is entirely home-based now.

robbo277 wrote:Last time out in 2013 Argentina rested some players ahead of the Championship. After England's relatively untroubled series win I'd hope they put out a stronger side, especially as their squad is entirely home-based now.

Cant see that happening this time as Argentina will sniff a proper go at a weakened squad at home. Will be tight but interesting.

If all 4 locks get selected for the Lions (possible) it will be interesting to see who tours Argentina.

Gaskell, Ewers, Barrow

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If all 4 locks get selected for the Lions  (possible) it will be interesting to see who tours Argentina.

Gaskell, Ewers, Barrow

I think he'll go with 5

Kruis and Launchbury should go, although the former can hardly be said to be on anything other than on reputation. Itoje I'd say is nailed on with Lawes marginal. I expect him to pick AWJ and Gray to make up the 5. Expect to lose one at least pre tests bringing Lawes into the frame, or J Gray

Only Launchbury and Itoje will go to NZ...not Lawes.

Wynn Jones v Lawes...and Wynn Jones will get the spot.

If we go similar to the tour 4 years ago - 32 man squad....but ill pick a 33 man squad

I think this is what Jones will go with:

LH: Marler, Genge, (2)
Hooker: Hartley, Taylor, LCD (3)
TH: Sinkler, Hill, Brookes, (3)
Locks: Kruis, Lawes, Ewells, Barrow (4)
Flankers: Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Underhill, (4)
No8: Hughes, Beaumont (2)

SH: Care, Robson, Spencer (3)
FH: Ford, Lozowski, (2)
IC: Te'o, Slade (2)
OC: Marchant, Tompkins (2)
Wings: Nowell, May, Yarde, Roku (4)
FB: Brown, Haley (2)

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Goode? I really do not think he will be in the squad to be honest.

And if Brown is on the Lions tour,  not sure who would be at Full Back.

Brown will be full back on tour and not a British Irish Lion.

Come on you can't be this ignorant about your own side.

I do agree with you. I don't think Brown is playing well enough to tour with the Lions.


Geordiefalcon pretty good squad except for the wingers.

May - just not consistent enough, one good series of 4 games isn't good enough in 25 caps. Strike rate at international level is poor.

Yarde - too many English wingers superior to him. At least 7 wingers superior to him - Nowell,Daly,Wade,Roko,Solomona,Ashton,May. I'd pick Earle ahead too though that's more bias whilst others are clearly better.

Its just the squad I think Jones will pick.

I wouldn't pick Yarde either but I don't influence the tour

EDIT:
Maybe his place will go to Solomona

Given the number of players going on the Lions tour there will be a fair few guys in the squad for Argentina who probably don't have a long-term future with England.

Jones needs to get a balance between giving emerging players experience and having some of the older heads around who know the systems and have been in the training squads/EPS for a while.

That's why the likes of Wood and Yarde will probably feature. This will still be a very young squad.

I think it'll be very close to the squad i've listed above.

Eddie picks his first choice squad, and if there are lions then the next strongest players will come in.

There will only be experiments in positions we need it. The back row is a focus on that, and full back. Although if we have Robshaw, Haskell etc, only Underhill will be the new one looked at.

The NZ'ers tweak teams as they progress. Bar after this WC (due to the age of players/ retirees), they never do MASS clearouts. They bring one new player in at a time if a player needs replaced.

Eddie will bring that to this England set up. Slow evolution, and it will not change on this tour.

Eddie has been brought in to make the team No.1 in the world and win the WC.

There is also the idea that some of the more experienced guys may also be rested by EJ.
Similar to Robshaw over the last Lions tour.
Agree Cyril, that's why I thought Goode would likely be included too.

As an aside - who do people think are likely to be included that isn't currently in a squad?
Is P.Hill likely to come back in? K.Brookes I think is done.
Solomona is well documented.
Wade stands a chance - if not now then probably never
Will Kvesic be considered?
I think James Chisholm deserves a shot in the tour group.
12 and 13 are the big issues for me - Sam Hill?

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Goode? I really do not think he will be in the squad to be honest.

And if Brown is on the Lions tour,  not sure who would be at Full Back.

Brown will be full back on tour and not a British Irish Lion.

Come on you can't be this ignorant about your own side.

I can appreciate that perhaps you don't watch him as much/closely given that England is not the team you follow. Also there is a division among England fans as to his worth to the team. There are some fans however that appreciate his worth and perhaps even a few that would pick him in their Lions squads. Does that mean they are ignorant?

You may argue that those fans don't know what they are talking about but you'd also have to throw the same criticism at Eddie Jones. He is a vastly experienced coach who has picked him in nearly all of the 18 games he has had in charge (which of course has spanned a record equaling run, back to back 6N titles (one grand slam) and a first ever series whitewash in Australia).

You wouldn't take him, fair enough. Ignorant to suggest he might go? I don't think so.

Geordiefalcon obviously Jones doesn't mind his foreign players so I can see Solomona replacing Yarde.

propdavid_london I think Kvesic is smart to move to Exeter. Maybe they will help improve him.

Both Jones and Lancaster don't seem to rate him for whatever reason so doubt he'll tour.

There are other fringe players - Don Armand, Mike Williams, Is Dave Ewers playing much?
Who is the small Tigers U20s flanker - was it Will Evans? Or the Curry boys may be looked at in the larger squad.

I do hope Argentina put out a full strength side - Domestic rugby there has dramatically changed in the last 4yrs

If senior players (Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell etc ) are fit....they'll tour.

I'll eat my hat if they don't.

I don't see EJ resting players, he's not going there to develop players, he's going there to win.

Marchant will tour, he's been developing nicely this season.

Starting team:

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 T'eo
13 Marchant
14 Nowell
15 Brown

That would be a pretty strong side. What woudl you expect the bench to tha tteam to look like:

Taylor
Mullan (or Genge)
Hill
Ewells
Underhill
Robson
Slade
Haley

????????????

Pretty much LT

Genge over Mullan

But everything else..yeah. Mostly the youngsters, but at the sametime they are the next in line looking for gametime.

Again there's a big and seemingly universal assumption that marler won't go with the Lions, but the guy he usually keeps on the bench will.

There's a fairly strong chance both will be Lions.

If Marler and Mako go to the lions then I'd go

1 Mullan
16 Genge

Has Mullan actually been that good? Has his time gone potentially?

What about PDJ?

yappysnap wrote:Has Mullan actually been that good? Has his time gone potentially?

What about PDJ?

Stop it. It's getting silly.

Hey PDJ could do a job...










He'd be great as kit boy

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 T'eo
13 Marchant
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Tin foil hat time, so please bear with me!

But if that team was selected, would it be in Ford's best interests to not perform as he can and stand deeper than he normally does, to put pressure on Te'o?

Ford and Te'o are competing for one 10/12 shirt alongside Farrell, so if Ford stands flat and Te'o benefits from it, might Ford see himself benched when Faz returns, and Te'o retained? If Ford stands deep and Te'o struggles to get over the gainline, do you take a chance on Farrell and Te'o, or return to what's worked?

Sounds far fetched, but I recall one occasion in roundball where a player scored a promotion-winning goal in a play-off final, only to be released because the coaches deem he's surplus to requirements at the higher level. Bet he was pleased.

Ford could stand flat, make himself a target for late hits, play someone else through the holes he's created and see himself dropped for his troubles!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Starting team:

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 T'eo
13 Marchant
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Crossing out the names being widely tipped for a Lions tour. Launchbury/Lawes will be just fine (assuming both available). TH becomes a mess. Eddie would surely want to take 3 on tour, but who?
Slade to play at 12 maybe, and assuming he is not initially needed we have JJ available to partner him.

Taking 3 tightheads...Hill is presumably in. After that I would guess we are looking at Brookes. And then I'm really scratching around for a 3rd. You'd have to go back. Wilson? Thomas?

Who am I forgetting?

robbo277 wrote:

But if that team was selected, would it be in Ford's best interests to not perform as he can and stand deeper than he normally does, to put pressure on Te'o?

Ford and Te'o are competing for one 10/12 shirt alongside Farrell, so if Ford stands flat and Te'o benefits from it, might Ford see himself benched when Faz returns, and Te'o retained? If Ford stands deep and Te'o struggles to get over the gainline, do you take a chance on Farrell and Te'o, or return to what's worked?

Sounds far fetched, but I recall one occasion in roundball where a player scored a promotion-winning goal in a play-off final, only to be released because the coaches deem he's surplus to requirements at the higher level. Bet he was pleased.

Ford could stand flat, make himself a target for late hits, play someone else through the holes he's created and see himself dropped for his troubles!

If we had a less than great coach, that might be an issue, but I think Eddie would easily see through it - and that if Ford plays anything less than his best he will be creating a lot more trouble for himself. I think the best thing he can do is continue to demonstrate his play making abilities - as ultimately that is what makes him combine well with Farrell. If he stops doing that, then what is the point in him being there?

For a 3rd TH we could do worse than Wilson. Yes, he was utterly mangled by Genge at the weekend, but he's not bad - and ultimately would be going as a 3rd choice during a Lions tour. Being able to bring in a player like that who can do a job in an emergency, and comes in with a decent amount of experience is no bad thing in my view.

cascough wrote:Taking 3 tightheads...Hill is presumably in. After that I would guess we are looking at Brookes. And then I'm really scratching around for a 3rd. You'd have to go back. Wilson? Thomas?

Who am I forgetting?

Will Collier was on a par with Sinckler at Quins last year but has missed a lot of this season with injury. He's back now and could get a shout - not so dynamic in the loose but a better scrummager.

Davy Wilson is so far past it, its unreal. If he is our 3rd best TH then Englands in trouble. He wont even be playing for us much.

Scotty Wilson is a absolute monster....alas he's a monster that never plays due to injury...and im losing all hope with him. He's only young yet already looks like a "what if" type player. What if he had stayed fit. What if he had been allowed to progress as we hoped...

Think Thomas may be injured as well.

Prop options -
Will Collier is lacking gametime and been in the Saxons - coming back to fitness but was in contention 2yrs ago
Is Alec Hepburn a TH of LH?
Harry Williams, Carl Rimmer?

The current U20's props aren't the beasts that I remember from a few years back! And the England pack isn't as strong as it used to be at that level......although they are vastly improved in a number of other areas.

Bath Props are useful - perhaps a bit early but Obano is developing well.
What do Tigers fans think of Fraser Balmain?

We missed Balmain around, especially in the first half of last season when he was having to play TH and LH. It all means he has not progressed as much as he could. If he gets gametime at TH at Glaws he could easily develop into a really good club player, and someone who could easily be considered for future tour like this. Right now though, probably not ready, but would not let us down if touring as covered.

If JJ and Joe miss out on the Lions then this is the only summer tour I'll be watching.

Might buy a All Blacks shirt too.

#BigFan

I agree Tighthead that it would be disappointing if Joe and JJ don't go on the Lions tour, although that's going a bit far supporting the Oppo.
In Joes, case he is in the most competitive position imaginable and also fighting it our with a possible Lions capt candidate in AWJ. It might just be a case of bad luck there.
JJ would be particularly tough - as it will feel like a Gatland Snub. He had a bit of a dip in form at the start of the 6N but came back well and looks to be in form. The other possible 13's aren't that convincing either and all had the odd booboo in the 6N (while not all can cover multiple positions). We will have to wait till tomorrow for the final selection.

In any event - I am really excited to watch both tours. Fascinated to see what will happen on the Lions tour. And really excited to see a strong 2nd string England team hopefully play well against a strong Argentina side.
I enjoy watching the U20s as its a glimps of the upcoming talent, but this tour is a halfway house of U20s/Saxons/Senior and a real chance to get an idea of what the England future will be heading up to the next WC.

I can tell you what will happen in the Lions games, they will score 35+ points a game and the Lions will be lucky to get 15 pts playing Gatlandball.

The England tour won't have the hype and excitement of the Lions but will be far more interesting for the longer term implications.
Particularly interested to see any new backrow combinations notwithstanding that it appears Robshaw, Haskell & Hughes are not being selected for the NZ trip.
Would hope Underhill, Mercer, Wray, (Rhodes ?) Ewers, Armand, Thompson, Evans, Thacker, Chisholm all get a fair shot at selection.

To date, I have ignored the Lions build up but the more I look at it now, the more it looks like selection would be a poisoned chalice, just in terms of player survival, never mind results. Hopefully this will be the last Lions tour with a current Home nations coach and a murderous itinerary.

Interesting Recwatcher....would you consider Harry Thacker?

I rate the kid unbelievably, but they need to decide what his position is. Hooker or Flanker, because lets be clear he's just not big enough to be an international hooker.

IF he puts all his efforts in at 7, he could be top class.

I think the back row is a safe bet...with Underhill going as the youngster. Maybe Chisholm if Jones takes a few back rowers.

Armand doesn't interest me, Ewers has to prove himself...Jackson Wray is the same as Mark Wilson, Thompson wasn't considered previously so wont be now. Sam Jones when he comes back will be ahead of him.

To my mind Thacker is a seven not a two Geordie. However in the same way that the Scottish open sides can get blasted out of the breakdown, not sure he is big enough against the best oppositions.

Yes should have put down Sam Jones and probably that man Wilson for that matter too....

Should add - still disappointed that Carl Fearns isn't in the reckoning.

Just seen all the thoughts that Joe Launchbury and JJ wont be Lions and T'eo may be going!!!

If that true that's absolutely ludicrous!!!!!

Recwatcher16 wrote:To my mind Thacker is a seven not a two Geordie. However in the same way that the Scottish open sides can get blasted out of the breakdown, not sure he is big enough against the best oppositions.

Yes should have put down Sam Jones and probably that man Wilson for that matter too....

He's a VERY powerful guy despite his size. At 7 I think he'll be absolutely fine. Needs to work on his breakdown skills...but his tackling is very good and his carrying is fantastic (his balance etc)

But of course, if Underhill is as good as everyone seems to be saying then he might find it difficult.